Topic: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form

[Dick Emery]

Why are people focussing on yesterday? Lucas wasn't the cause of yesterday's result. There's a much bigger issue here. Does Lucas represent the standard of football player that can take us from the brink of success last season to finishing first this year? I think the answer is fairly clear and it isn't positive.

[Stevie-G]

Maybe you are right. But he did spend £20 million on a lad who hasn't kicked a ball since March. This doesn't look very smart now either.

We got him cheaper because he was injured. He only just turned 25 and he's world class player. For these reasons, i think Rafa made a smart move.

[Chivasino]

It's getting annoying seeing this thread at the top of the page so much.

Why are we all spending so much time analysing Lucas' game when it's our more experienced players who are under-performing? There is only so much Lucas can do, and the same applied for Xabi, when everyone else around him is putting in sub-standard performances. The defence looks shaky and the front men are misfiring, and he's stuck in the middle probably wondering whether to stick or twist.

[Chivasino]

We got him cheaper because he was injured. He only just turned 25 and he's world class player. For these reasons, i think Rafa made a smart move.

World Class is a bit premature, Mate.

[Dick Emery]

We got him cheaper because he was injured. He only just turned 25 and he's world class player. For these reasons, i think Rafa made a smart move.

Its not a smart move for this year though is it? Next year I don't care about. We were on the brink last year and we could've made the step this year. The plan doesn't look very favourable presently and by the time our mate from Italy gets up-to-speed we may be dead in the water.

[Stevie-G]

World Class is a bit premature, Mate.

Well I have been watching him in Roma the past few years as well as many international games for Italy which he has been apart of so i am not just basing that assessment on a few youtube compilation videos, mate. Its just my personal opinion.

[Chivasino]

Well I have been watching him in Roma the past few years as well as many international games for Italy which he has been apart of so i am not just basing that assessment on a few youtube compilation videos, mate. Its just my personal opinion.

Fair enough, Mate. I can't claim to have seen much of him at all.

I just wonder why no one else was in for him, that we know of? His injury record perhaps, which in itself is a bit worrying.

[rocco]

It'll look a better decision down the road. He's some player.

Time will tell ....

[Marko B]

It's getting annoying seeing this thread at the top of the page so much.

Why are we all spending so much time analysing Lucas' game when it's our more experienced players who are under-performing? There is only so much Lucas can do, and the same applied for Xabi, when everyone else around him is putting in sub-standard performances. The defence looks shaky and the front men are misfiring, and he's stuck in the middle probably wondering whether to stick or twist.

In a nutshell you are correct.

[john_lfc]

Love laughing at the Idiots who think he's a good player though 

Half the ground says it, ex players say it, pundits say it, even Aldo on the radio slates him

Hes shite..just these people with Rose tinted glasses on cant see it

[Hendoben]

Lucas was far from the reason we lost last night. Performance wise anyway, though you could look at his OG, but that can happen to anyone, just shit luck.

But where did he disappear to last night in the second half? We had so much of the ball in Villa's third, but it only ever seemed to be Masch on the ball, shouldn't it have been Lucas, you know, he's meant to be the "footballer" of the two. But he bottled out. That's the most disappointing thing for me watching him last night.

[BIGdavalad]

Half the ground says it, ex players say it, pundits say it, even Aldo on the radio slates him

Hes shite

Well with expert opinion like that, he must be.

[john_lfc]

Well yes

When you are talking about a majority

[Uhoh AureliOs]

Love laughing at the Idiots who think he's a good player though 

Half the ground says it, ex players say it, pundits say it, even Aldo on the radio slates him

Hes shite..just these people with Rose tinted glasses on cant see it

Are you laughing at Rafa too then?

"For someone of his age to suffer such criticism from the experts on TV is wrong, He is so good but still he was criticised. I do not understand why they do not criticise other players, more senior players, when they do not play well. He is an easy target and maybe they are not brave enough to criticise the bigger players here."

[JamieB]

Lucas, Babel, Voronin. People are hoping they are going to be good and make it. When will the truth hit home that they aren't actually very good as we hope or make out. Nobody in their right mind are willing to touch those players except Hull who admitted an interest in Voronin. They are not good enough to win us the league.

[kingluisgarcia]

Bit of a random comment but, anyone see his Zidane-esque roulette last night, thought that was quite nice lol.

[BIGdavalad]

Well yes

When you are talking about a majority

So whoever talks loudest is right?

Pundits are, almost to a man, fucking idiots who don't have the first idea about football.

A large number of football fans don't actually have the first idea about football. Including a lot of our own fans these days, sadly.

A lot of our ex-players, great as they may have been at the game in their day, are clueless about the modern game. That's not exclusive to our ex-players either, it's across the board.

Aldridge is a great bloke who's clearly passionate about Liverpool. I love him for his time here and his goals. That doesn't make him an expert on the game either.

[row25seat38]

Love laughing at the Idiots who think he's a good player though 

Half the ground says it, ex players say it, pundits say it, even Aldo on the radio slates him

Hes shite..just these people with Rose tinted glasses on cant see it

Lucas, Babel, Voronin. People are hoping they are going to be good and make it. When will the truth hit home that they aren't actually very good as we hope or make out. Nobody in their right mind are willing to touch those players except Hull who admitted an interest in Voronin. They are not good enough to win us the league.

Spot on

[b_joseph]

I knew it.
After Stoke, people are licking his balls. Now, people are trying to throw him under a bus. I take it that this is how its going to be from now on....writing his legacy after every game.

2 facts:
1) Lucas is a good player
2) Lucas isnt to blame whenever the team doesnt play well.

[Chivasino]

Spot on

If it is, and he's so fucking shit, why has Dunga, who I assume we can all agree, knows a thing or two about playing in Midfield, called him up to play for Brazil?

Brazil, you know, the greatest footballing nation on the planet.

[stoa]

Bit of a random comment but, anyone see his Zidane-esque roulette last night, thought that was quite nice lol.

It's a perfectly fine comment and a good observation. All this came after his own-goal and I think it shows his attitude and self-confidence. He might not be the best player in the world and he might make some mistakes, but he doesn't need anyone to pick him up or tell him how good he is. He does it himself and doesn't let own-goals like yesterday affect his performance. He's still a rather young lad and many would have let their heads drop after conceding the freekick and then scoring the own-goal, but he stood up again and at least tried to turn the game around.

[Hendoben]

It's a perfectly fine comment and a good observation. All this came after his own-goal and I think it shows his attitude and self-confidence.

Doesn't really explain where he disappeared off to in the second half. Not saying he was bad, because he simply wasn't involved in anything we did then. Somoeone with real confidence in themselves ithink would have been demanding the ball then, he wasn't. That's a huge flaw in his game actually, be it because of his team-mates or the player himself, he doesn't demand the ball like you'd expect a player playing in that position, look at Fabregas, Scholes, Lampard, or any number of the top mid-fielders, they all demand the ball.


That all might seem a bit harsh, but i think it's more to do with where he is in his development, and we simply can't really be relying on a kid who hasn't matured yet playing there, as he's no Fabregas, he's no Mascherano either. He's just not ready i don't think.

[mybacklight]

Love laughing at the Idiots who think he's a good player though 

Half the ground says it, ex players say it, pundits say it, even Aldo on the radio slates him

Hes shite..just these people with Rose tinted glasses on cant see it

Everyone has their own opinion! I agree with you, I just don't see what Lucas has to offer? Ever since he has been at LFC he has never impressed me at all, fair enough he is trying, but he is never going to be able to control a game and make wise early moves. He just isn't good enough for a strong midfield role. Gotta laugh at anyone who thinks he got the class to make it!!!
If it turns out he proves me wrong Ill hold me hands up. From what I have seen from him so far, he hasn't got it. Never will. I may not like it, but looks like he is here for the long haul. So I will support him, just not got alot of faith in him. Maybe Lucas will prove me wrong and become a good strong midfielder. Cause at the moment he just hasn't grasped the concept of his role.

 

[row25seat38]

I couldn't give a f*** about Dunga and whether he gets called up for Brazil or not. I'm not arsed. I'm sick to death of he's won this and that or played and managed xy and z. It's staring you right in the f***ing face. He's shit. Ryan Babel is shit. Voronin is shit. They are not going to win you the title.

It doesn't take much to spot a good player surely? Glen Johnson for example, a tremendous signing by the boss. An obvious improvement on the the very ordinary Arbeloa. Who again, people raved about. He's been replaced because he cannot take us where we want to go. Nor can the players mentioned above. You can add Ngog and Riera to that list as well.

I'm not hysterical after the start we've made because I'm not surprised. The quality of playing staff is not there still and despite going close last year, the loss of Alonso and the lack of a second top class striker means we are short. It's obvious.

It's not a new phenomenon either. Back in the day, when we had the best side side people still knew players like Michael Robinson and David Hodgeson were shit. See it and say it. Lucas and some of the others are not good enough and those mentioned would not get into the starting 11 of any of the other top sides, including Villa, City and Everton!!

[starlightshadow]

I knew it.
After Stoke, people are licking his balls. Now, people are trying to throw him under a bus. I take it that this is how its going to be from now on....writing his legacy after every game.

2 facts:
1) Lucas is a good player
2) Lucas isnt to blame whenever the team doesnt play well.

Well, obviously he's not the sole person to blame when anything goes wrong. But TBF I don't see many people doing that on here.


On the oppostite end of the spectrum, it's seems you're not able to so much as say he had a bad game anymore without being labelled a "scapegoater".

[mybacklight]

I couldn't give a f*** about Dunga and whether he gets called up for Brazil or not. I'm not arsed. I'm sick to death of he's won this and that or played and managed xy and z. It's staring you right in the f***ing face. He's shit.

LOL you have cheered me up with that shout!

[Liverbird 2010]

No Lucas was not to blame for the defeat against Spurs or last night but just because he is not to blame doesn't mean he is anywhere near good enough to play in our starting 11 either.

I do not see what Rafa see's in him, he has shipped out players who have performed better than him.

Our system worked great with Xabi & masch that system has been broken up now with Xabi's departure , its time for Rafa to get back to the drawing board and change his tactics with this two holding midfielders malarky. Because with Skyrtel, Carra, Masch & Lucas none of them offer any service to Torres or Gerrard.

[row25seat38]

No Lucas was not to blame for the defeat against Spurs or last night but just because he is not to blame doesn't mean he is anywhere near good enough to play in our starting 11 either.

I do not see what Rafa see's in him, he has shipped out players who have performed better than him.

Our system worked great with Xabi & masch that system has been broken up now with Xabi's departure , its time for Rafa to get back to the drawing board and change his tactics with this two holding midfielders malarky. Because with Skyrtel, Carra, Masch & Lucas none of them offer any service to Torres or Gerrard.

Agreed 100%. Great shout.

[billypilgrimnz]

To me, Lucas has:

1. an excellent first touch
2. excellent first touch passing
3. technical skills to beat players with the ball at feet
4. an eye for a run

which is off-set by:

5. a complete lack of confidence in running the midfield
6. an inclination to pass sideways (probably related to #5)
7. not doing enough to show for the ball from the back, letting Masch take it too often (again, related to #5)
8. an unwillingess to try long or through balls

5-8 can be remedied, but how long can we wait for him to at least to get involved and boss a game, just to see if he can do it. I think Rafa should be giving him an ultimatum for Bolton - run the attacking side of the game, and shrug off any incomplete attacking balls. Just get involved lad!

[Cribertinokes]

It's getting annoying seeing this thread at the top of the page so much.

Why are we all spending so much time analysing Lucas' game when it's our more experienced players who are under-performing? There is only so much Lucas can do, and the same applied for Xabi, when everyone else around him is putting in sub-standard performances. The defence looks shaky and the front men are misfiring, and he's stuck in the middle probably wondering whether to stick or twist.

I agree, yesterday Gerrard and Torres were absolutely appauling for the most part, Torres got a goal which earnt him some redemption but his overall play was just off, the shot that he dragged early on was something you just don't see Torres do. Gerrard however was misplacing passes, more than Lucas, and gave away a penalty that resembled something from his youth, it was rash and completely took the wind out of our sails.

However things can change in the space of days and do think that two defeats this early is going to prevent us from winning the title is ridiculous, there is still 35 games left and to think Chelsea, Utd and Arsenal won't lose games let alone drop points is insane.

Everyone just needs to take a step back, grow the fuck up and see the bigger picture.

[Tom_B]

3. technical skills to beat players with the ball at feet
4. an eye for a run

Because he did that once last night?

He hardly ever goes on a dribble and beats players. Could be a confidence thing, could not.

[RyanBabel19]

Well, obviously he's not the sole person to blame when anything goes wrong. But TBF I don't see many people doing that on here.


On the oppostite end of the spectrum, it's seems you're not able to so much as say he had a bad game anymore without being labelled a "scapegoater".

But thats just it, its not people saying he had a bad game, its people saying he's shit/not good enough etc. its like one bad game and all hell breaks loose. Then madness like he hasnt done anything since he joined, some of the stuff said makes little sense and yet people cling to this belief that he is crap and anyone who says otherwise is just seeing something that isnt there.

Personally i believe he is a good player, i dont back him to the hilt and play it down when he has a bad game, if he has a bad game i will say i feel he did just as with any other player, but i refuse to do the opposite which some feel the need to aswell and play it down when he does well but go on a mad rant the second he has a bad game. I prefer to judge him on equal ground no matter how he plays, but some tend to fall into the groups of back him in an exaggerated fashion or slate him in an exaggerated fashion.

Its odd to see people claim he's never had a good game for us, this just makes no sense atall but it just goes to show how much some people overlook performances of individuals.

[Neil D]

To me, Lucas has:

1. an excellent first touch
2. excellent first touch passing
3. technical skills to beat players with the ball at feet
4. an eye for a run

which is off-set by:

5. a complete lack of confidence in running the midfield
6. an inclination to pass sideways (probably related to #5)
7. not doing enough to show for the ball from the back, letting Masch take it too often (again, related to #5)
8. an unwillingess to try long or through balls

5-8 can be remedied, but how long can we wait for him to at least to get involved and boss a game, just to see if he can do it. I think Rafa should be giving him an ultimatum for Bolton - run the attacking side of the game, and shrug off any incomplete attacking balls. Just get involved lad!

I agree with all of that assessment, but I'd be more inclined to drop him against Bolton and play Stevie with Masch and Kuyt off Torres with Riera and Yossi wide.

[billypilgrimnz]

Because he did that once last night?

He hardly ever goes on a dribble and beats players. Could be a confidence thing, could not.

I just said he has the skills. Think of it this way - last night we saw he can do it, yet how often have we seen it attempted in the past, successful or not? I can't remember...and that's my point. He could do it, but he's not even trying to - to me, that's more frustrating than trying it and it not coming off. Alonso has been sainted around here, but he missed a hell of a lot of ambitious passes, but it didn't matter, because he'd get the ball back and do it again, and get it right enough times to give the team an advantage. Lucas needs to be more of a risk-taker.

[RedStevie1]

He's shit. Anyone who thinks he will succeed in a red shirt and can take us to places where we want to go knows fuck all about football. Absolute bollocks.

It's as if droves of supporters have become disciples of that bellend Paul Tomkins. Fucks sake, if he says Voronin had a good season in Germany and can make a difference everyone believes it. Do you think Deggan is half decent as well?

Where have people's brains and eyes gone. That thread about Ryan Babel's development. Cut the long story short, he's shit as well. I wonder if I start banging books out year on year, with words like dynasty and bastion and other such bollocks, telling supporters what they want to hear, if I'll make a few quid on those soft enough to buy and believe it. Wake up people ffs.

No wonder most of our fans are ridiculed for being deluded.

I honestly believe we would currently be Champions for the 19th time if we had a midfielder more capable than Lucas to fill in last season when Alonso wasn't playing (maybe I'm deluded but I think it was that small a margin). He was the main culprit as far as I'm concerned, him and Rafa for playing this waste of space, but Rafa got most things right last season so I'm not going to blame him, can't go through a whole season without making mistakes. On the other hand, you should not have over 80 appearances for LFC in central midfield with the contributions Lucas has made.

What has he done here? Scored a goal against some non league club? Nice! Played well against Inter Milan? Well, it wasn't a standout performance on the night, it was a defensive performance and he done his job well, not worth being talked about forever. Played a nice pass against Newcastle, yep, they're now a Championship club. Won the penalty against Everton, yep, his biggest contribution for me. Played well against Stoke in the 4-0? Yes, maybe. It was fucking Stoke though. Played well away to Man Utd? Really? What did he do so well in this game? We weren't that good, it was one of those games, none of the 4 goals were down to him, he broke up their play well I guess but c'mon, just because he played in this game does not mean he is some fantastic footballer.

Now, some of my examples of just a few games from the top of my head.

Fulham at home last season. Lucas starts ahead of Alonso in central midfield, not smart Rafa. We put in a dire performance and get outpassed and outplayed by Bullard and Murphy in the centre. Sorry, but that wouldn't have happened with a capable player in the centre, if we had a good central midfielder aswell, we would have had more control and more opportunities and maybe could have sneaked a goal. You might say it's harsh but if we get outpassed at home to fucking Fulham I'm going to put the blame for these two points dropped on our central midfield.  And Robbie Keane for missing that one on one with Schwarzer but we didn't have many other chances, mainly down to not controlling a game against Fulham.

Stoke away. Another two points dropped. It was an all round dire performance, but he was nowhere to be seen in this game, he hid and more should be expected from a LFC midfielder against fucking Stoke City.

Everton at home. Comes on in the last 10 minutes, we're 1-0 up. Does his speciality and gives away a free kick needlessly in a not so dangerous position and a chance for Everton to get the ball forward, they get another free kick from that and then they score, another two points gone. Is that the only time his fucking idiocy when fouling players has cost us? No.

Everton in the cup. Gets sent off, actually, he was decent before that, but still our only player to be sent off last season, another not so positive contribution.

Wigan away. Gives away the penalty late on, 2 more points dropped. Arbeloa more at fault I realize though. But still, not a positive contribution from Lucas!

Barnsley at home. Lol, losing at home to Barnsley, Lucas started, I didn't watch this game but I don't remember our Brazilian maestro in central midfield being praised after this game.

Chelsea at home in the CL. Lets be honest, we could have been humiliated 6-1 at home in this one, Lucas played in midfield and done fuck all other than get dominated by Chelsea's midfield.

I'm sure their is more.

Waiting for him to become the player Rafa wants him to become is going to certainly cost us. 80 appearances, fuck all positive contributions, and still we have the condescending Lucas dick suckers who don't understand why he's a scapegoat. I despair. I realize i'm being harsh, but does it really not frustrate people seeing him do fuck all time after time? Just to show I can appreciate a central midfielder, I fucking loved Xavi Alonso. What a player he was, the main reason we went close last season, if someone could have filled in better in his absence then we'd have been Champions IMO. Fuck you Rafa for trying to get rid for Gareth fucking Barry.

Lucas was better than Gerrard last night to be fair, what an excellent contribution by Lucas, I can't argue with that one, great argument lads! Lucas was better than Gerrard! Woohoo, in a game we lost 3-1, Lucas was better than Gerrard. Lucas lovers should celebrate! He played better than an absolute legend who has saved this club numerous times, Lucas is god!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm actually seething, our Premier League challenge is hanging by a thread in August. The starting team isn't that much different from last seasons starting team, just shows how superior Alonso is to Lucas though.

Oh and, I used to be a defender of Lucas and have given him a chance, but I don't see him turning it around, maybe some games against the shit of the league he will play some nice passes when others around him are playing well but that's all I'll ever expect. This isn't knee jerk, he's consistently done fuck all here, he can't live on his reputation from Brazil forever.

I'm off to seethe somewhere else.

[jonesygeez]

Bottom line he is shite.  I agree with much of the above, he just isnt good enough.  No one hates him, he just isnt good enough for us.  So whats the solution?

1.  Drop stevie back, play yossi up and riera on left or bring ngog in a bit more?

2. Give super spearing a chance in there with masc.....

Either way, fuck lucas off and move on

[carling]

Watching Lucas and Mascherano together last season was on the most part agonising.

Unless we play against utter shite, e.g. Newcastle this season, Stoke on Wed, then I just can't see where the forward passing is going to come from.

They are both good at retaining possession, Masch can spread the play well while Lucas's short passing is neat and tidy.  When it comes to incisive/convictive forward play however, they both fall short.

We do need good movement as well from our attackers and I'm sure the different movements of players is going to be vital in Rafa's post-Alonso team, I just worry we haven't got the passing strength in the middle at the moment to maintain the level we need.

Looking forward to seeing Aquilani - I just really want to be convinced we can be as strong without Alonso. 

[billypilgrimnz]

I agree with all of that assessment, but I'd be more inclined to drop him against Bolton and play Stevie with Masch and Kuyt off Torres with Riera and Yossi wide.

My thinking is that away from home, he'd have more space and there would be less pressure on each pass. If he can't do it there, he's not going to be any better against a packed defence at home with an impatient crowd on his back. He's obviously a confidence player.

I'd be more inclined to shift Gerrard back to the midfield in the next home game.

[row25seat38]

You can count decent performances over his time here on one hand. Decent never outstanding. He's been ineffective for the majority of the time he's played and at worst his mistakes have cost us badly.

For a player entrusted with the most pivotal position on the football field that ain't good enough. Over the course of a season that ain't going to win us the title either.

Lucas v Lampard/ Essien/ Ballack/ Fabregas/ Carrick/ Scholes etc etc. Just think about it ffs

[carling]

I agree with all of that assessment, but I'd be more inclined to drop him against Bolton and play Stevie with Masch and Kuyt off Torres with Riera and Yossi wide.

Yossi off Torres, Kuyt right for me.