Topic: RAWK Round Table SCFC 3-5 LFC

[robgomm]

Still think the second half thing is a bit confused by the nature of our performances. We may have dropped off earlier in the season but often our second half record is as much down to the way we control games in the first half (mainly at home). Our level of performance has been stunning since Hull, 6 wins from 8 and two defeats away to the best in the division. There's no sign of a dip and you'd have to think with a full squad and maybe a signing or two that we should be able to maintain or even improve as the season moves on.

[TheDarkKnight]

One of those games you get every now and then where you go through a whole range of emotions. When the final one is a feeling of relief and satisfaction you ultimately can't complain, even though it was a rocky ride to get there.

After the somewhat unfortunate defeats at Manchester City and, to a lesser extent (although the lack of good officiating certainly fucked us over) at Chelsea, there was no room for error in our next two league games. Matches against Hull City and Stoke City, two teams you associate more with rugby at the best of times, and the kind of teams we've struggled against under Rodgers (lots of long balls and an emphasis on sending everyone forward for set-pieces, even those in the centre circle), managed by two fellas who are hardly what you would call popular with Liverpool fans considering their Manchester United links and the fact their teams seem to try harder whenever they take on Liverpool.

So to bounce back with two wins is deeply encouraging, all things considered. Obviously the two games couldn't have been more of a contrast in terms of how we won them- the professional, comfortable dismissal of Hull followed up by a nervy, high-octane, goal-fest against Stoke where, thankfully, we came out on top.

There were negatives in our performance yesterday, no doubt. But it has to be taken in to account that we were without Sakho/Agger and Enrique who would have been shoe-ins for the left side of our defence. Is the defensive problem more to do with our system than personnel? Maybe. We can certainly be got at unless we're intent on defending very deep a la our first three games this season. We still haven't quite got the balance right of being able to defend well and attack well at the same time, generally. It's one or the other. But like I said, we have had a ridiculous amount of defenders injured this season so have rarely been able to play the same back four two games running. Hopefully that can happen soon.

Besides, isn't it just great seeing us as such a threat as an attacking force? Suarez would get in to any team in the world. Sturridge would get in to most. Sterling has been a breath of fresh air in the last month and a bit, consistently churning out top performances. Coutinho, while not yet reaching his personal heights of last season has still been a huge factor in our good performances. Watching these guys in tandem is a joy to behold. So I say enjoy it, drink it in and let the manager and his staff deal with our defending (as a team, not just the backline).

We hadn't won at Tottenham or Stoke in a long time prior to 2013/14. We've put five past each of them on their own turf in the space of a month. Anyone complaining can GTF, we won, we're back in fourth. Roll on Saturday.

[farawayred]

We all know that Suarez is great and that he's arguably the best striker in the world right now, but I wanted to point to something that shouldn't be downplayed - his first goal was a marvelous application of street footie!

Note how he follows the ball bounce twice - first time the defender heads it back, Suarez doesn't challenge him, just follows the bounce, then the second defender plays the ball, Suarez again doesn't challenge him but follows the ball and adjusts his body for a strike, then one touch and it's in the net under the keeper's body. The goal was pleasing to the eye, but I think the very reason why the goal materialized in the first place was a bit lost. Most forwards will challenge for that first ball; if Suarez did that, the second defender (Shawcross?) controls the ball safely and there is no goal. Very few forwards will have the instinct to not challenge the header but follow the ball the the second defender; if Suarez did that, the ball will most likely be out of play for a corner. Instead he prepares for a strike, which maybe only Messi would do (I've seen him score similar goals), but not Ronaldo, not Ibrahimovic, not anyone else I can think of. And if he delays the shot by a 10th of a second, the keeper would have kicked the ball out. That's the margin Suarez has been working with, and that to me is simply astonishing!

[Corkboy]

Alternatively, he was beaten to both balls but his persistence paid off. I think you're being a little kind, there.

[robgomm]

Alternatively, he was beaten to both balls but his persistence paid off. I think you're being a little kind, there.

No, it didn't properly hit me until I read farawayred's post but I've seen Suarez anticipate the bounce like that so many times and wondered whether you should just go for it. Owen did it too at his peak. Sure, Shawcross' touch might knock it for a corner but Suarez is there ready for the right drop and that's a great thing you can ask of any striker.

[TheDarkKnight]

No idea how you can say he was beaten to the ball twice there, he was miles away from the first but scared the shit out of Wilson, then knowing he probably wouldn't outjump Shawcross did the right thing in anticipating his touch.

It's definitely no fluke. I commented after one of his recent goals he always seems to be so good at reading where the ball is going. Has improved a great deal with his decision making, he'll only contest it now if he knows there's a good chance of him winning it, if not then he'll back himself to read the direction of the ball, in the process conserving energy but because of how dangerous he is still managing to worry his opponents.

[stockdam]

I'm finding it more and more difficult to analyse our games as they are becoming like two heavy weight boxers slugging it out.

Other teams try to contain and to tighten up if they go one goal ahead. We simply just roll up our sleeves and keep attacking. I think that is down to a belief that when you have Suarez on your team then you will score if you get the ball upfield to him. He is just so crazy that he creates chances out of nothing (like his first goal).

To be honest I was annoyed when we let a 2 goal lead slip. When you are two up you expect to keep things tight for a while. In past seasons I would have expected Stoke to go on and win after equalising.

This year we have scored more goals than I can remember. We rarely have boring 1-0 or 0-0 games. It's not good on the nerves as a goal by either team can occur at any time.

Suarez and Sturridge are by far the best partnership in the league. They know where each other is and their ability to score the most ridiculous goals is brilliant to watch.

For me I don't care about a shaky defence as I'll take a swash-buckling attack any day over a boring defensive display (not that I wouldn't take that at times too). I'm more of a Hurricane Higgins fan than a Steve Davis fan even though the latter was far more successful.

Suarez and Sturridge.........best partnership I've ever seen.

[BazC]

Alternatively, he was beaten to both balls but his persistence paid off. I think you're being a little kind, there.

Suarez is often beaten to the first ball because he's always challenging for the 2nd ball. That goal was a perfect example. But also, in regular play watch him when he's got his back to goal, and one of our defenders/keeper is punting it forward. Watch his body position relative to a tall defender (who'll nearly always be expected to win the first ball due to a height difference) and how he comes away with the ball.

The lad's reading of the game is truly phenomenal. It makes up for his lack of footspeed, height, etc and has him coming out on top versus taller faster defenders a lot. One of the most intelligent footballers I've ever seen.

[PhaseOfPlay]

A winning streak of 7 games. A relentless march on to March. We look like a team capable of the metric PoP labels as a benchmark for title winning sides. Given the stop start nature of the past three seasons - we feel different right now, wholeheartedly pushing forward in attack and getting the goals we need to see off games. I have stopped doubting our ability to perform week in, week out.

I don't think you can praise Rodgers enough for bringing on Sturridge, the temptation could have been to shell and keep the lead. With that in mind, who thinks we looked like a team holding off Stoke? By my mind, we only had one way of winning that game and our Manager took the risky, pragmatic option and it absolutely paid dividends.

Also, we aren't dropping off in the second half anymore are we?

Periodisation is a thing

[ElstonGunn]

I know people say the defensive frailties don't matter, cos we're scoring a shit load of goals. And to an extent they're right.

Scoring goals is very difficult, the most difficult part of the game. And we're making it look quite easy right now which is dandy, really it is. Good teams score goals, thats how you win games. But very good teams also don't let a lot in.

If you look at the top performing teams in Europe this season, there's a pattern (or it seems to me there is) about how often they shut the other team out.

Arsenal (before tonight) have kept a clean sheet in 45% of their games.
Chelsea in 38%
City in 38%
Roma in 63%
Juve 57%
Napoli 36%
Atletico 52%
Barca 52%
Real 31%
Bayern 56%

Ours is 28.5%.

Seems to me there's a very genuine trend there that if you want to win, or challenge for, a title then 'just' scoring a lot of goals isn't going to get you there without also keeping the opposition out quite a lot of the time.

Expectations of us right now aren't necessarily to be one of those clubs, yet. But we'd like to be eventually I'm sure. It'd be nice right now if we could start making a few moves towards tightening things up in anticipation of it.

We know the attack works, clearly it does. Would it really take that much more away from us in an offensive sense if we were to look to improve at the other end?

Those clubs listed above still score plenty by and large. That they marry it with more defensive solidity is what allows them to be comfortably in their top rung rather than be striving towards it.

Surely this has to be our next aim?

I agree with your general point, but the only teams you listed who have scored more than us are City, Barca and Real. Atletico are averaging .07 more goals per game, but have played fewer. Bayer are a few hundreths fewer per game, and Juve are just about equal.

When you think about that, that's incredible. We're scoring goals like the very best teams in the world. We certainly don't have the players to match those clubs' talent level (except maybe Atletico), so we've achieved it through a combination of a) spending more money on attackers than the rest of the side and b) playing an attacking game. I certainly agree that we have to focus on keeping goals out, but let's not lose sight of how our current set up has turned us into one of the best attacking sides in the world, and we shouldn't be willing sacrifice what we're best at to add a few more clean sheets.

[PhaseOfPlay]

I agree with your general point, but the only teams you listed who have scored more than us are City, Barca and Real. Atletico are averaging .07 more goals per game, but have played fewer. Bayer are a few hundreths fewer per game, and Juve are just about equal.

When you think about that, that's incredible. We're scoring goals like the very best teams in the world. We certainly don't have the players to match those clubs talent level, so we've achieved it through a combination of a) spending more money on attackers than the rest of the side and b) playing an attacking game. I certainly agree that we have to focus on keeping goals out, but let's not lose sight of how our current set up has turned us into one of the best attacking sides in the world, and we shouldn't be willing sacrifice what we're best at to add a few more clean sheets.

And C) Great coaching

[Shaved Crossbar]

Suarez does so, so well against these big defenders. He can go toe to toe with them physically because of his brilliant use of his body (something that he's evidently taught to Sterling too), he can use his superior agility, speed, nimbleness etc to beat them, or he can simply out-think them.

[slimbo]

It was so refreshing to see SAS back in action. If they can both stay fit it could be the catalyst for a title push they are that good together. A great win away with an obvious focus on our defensive deficiencies. To be expected when you concede three goals.

Disappointing for me was our lack of urgency defensively to put any pressure on the attacker leading up to their goals. For their first we saw Suarez track back to help Johnson. When the Stoke player turned back to cross, Johnson just dropped off and let him do it. He has become a mystery. He does realise it's a World Cup year doesn't he? At the moment he doesn't seem to have any ambition to play for LFC let alone England. Adam's goal saw Skrtyl drop off and allow him room to shoot, their third saw Toure very slow to react and they had another chance where Toure and Cissoko just watched the ball drop onto the attackers head. Not a lot of cohesion at all, but fortunately plenty of it in attack.

Stoke were gutsy and provided a good test, but if we can keep SAS on the pitch and bring back some of injured defenders we will be hard to beat anywhere.

[Alonso_The_Assassin]

Having said that, good teams, teams that are going places find a way to win, and that’s what Liverpool did today. Most managers, certainly in the case of Houllier, Benítez and the Dalglish/Clarke partnership, concentrate on getting the defence right first, building from the back. There’s even evidence, notwithstanding his team’s attacking play, that this was also Roy Evans’ first priority on taking over from Souness, breaking the British transfer record for a defender by signing Phil Babb (Ł3.6m) and paying a similarly hefty fee for John Scales, both centre-backs, and switching to three at the back ahead of his first full season in charge. Rodgers’ focus has been completely different. His Liverpool is a team built to pass the ball and score goals first and foremost. That has been his focus from day one. Of the major signings he has made to date, five by my count (Mignolet, Sakho, Touré, Ilori and Cissokho on loan) have been defensive ones while nine (Borini, Allen, Assaidi, Sahin on loan, Coutinho, Sturridge, Alberto, Aspas, Moses on loan) were either attacking players or ones whose remit was to retain possession and give those attackers the platform on which to score goals. The balance has been clear and the results have been impressive – only two teams in the Premier League have scored over fifty goals this season, Liverpool and Manchester City. Last season, only Manchester United, Chelsea and Arsenal scored more than the Reds, and that was with one fit senior striker for three months...

Good point regarding the defence. I think this fact typifies why most are feeling a little nervous about our defence. It's been ingrained into our DNA that worrying about the defence is first and foremost; the rest follows. Brendan's come in and done things differently and you know what? It probably needed changing. A change is as good as a holiday and all that. He’s done it and I personally think in the long run we’ll be far better for it.

Sure, I'm also nervous about defensive frailties, but it's hardly been a walk in the park for all and sundry, has it? Before these injuries (which make no mistake about it, are contributing factors toward the statistics of goals conceding and what have you), I believe Brendan finally settled on his central defensive pairing in Big Mart and Sakho. Hopefully they’ll be together against Villa. His right full back position is a massive problem, due to the fact that Glen Johnson has seemingly forgotten how to play the game while Aly really is just filling in the gaps until either Enrique or Flanno are fit again. I also think it’s effected Mignolet , too. His well documented indifferent moments throughout the last couple of weeks demonstrate this. It hasn’t been ideal and we’ve suffered as a result: pure and simple.

Personally, the defensive mistakes can stay outside when we talk about yesterday’s game and the brilliant result. You take what you get in a fixture where wins have been as rare as rocking horse shit.
The introduction of Sturridge was a joy and his goal really was something else. It was actually a goal I thought only Suarez could score. That’s about the best compliment I can give the lad.

As for Gerrard in the holding role? Hmm, let’s wait and see, eh? I’m not convinced. I can’t see him employed in this role week in and week out. I think we’ll see Lucas back there on Saturday unless he is on the bench, which is a real possibility with SAS back operating. Sterling’s place in the side is cemented for mine, while Henderson’s is much the same, in my opinion.
Made up for the 3 points. This team’s will to win is something else and something we’ve been missing since the title tilt in 08/09. Exciting times.

[Trendisnotdestiny]

Hello all,

Out of respect for Phase of Play, I thought I might add some post-Stoke positives to mix of information reminding us this season has been remarkable.

Wins - 13 after 21 Games
                                (3) One Goal Wins: Stoke (H), Villa (A), & Man U (H)
                                (5) Two Goal Wins: Sunderland (A), C Palace (H), Cardiff (H), Hull (H), Stoke (A)
                                (2) Three Goal Wins: West Brom (H), West Ham (H)
                                (2) Four Goal Wins: Fulham (H), Norwich (H)
                                (1) Five Goal Wins: Tottenham

****  Only 3/13 of our victories have ended in one goal differentials.  This compares to 6/16 last year.  For makers of beta blockers, and heart defibrillators of Merseyside, it is notable that in the Rodgers era in the EPL that when we win, 69% of the time, it is by two goals or more.  It is important to remember one of the herculean tasks handed to our manager was to find more ways to score.   In just under half of all of our victories 14/29, we win by three or more goals.   However, there is more here than just game to game goal differential.  Lets take a look at goal frequency, especially after scoring 5 at Stoke and winning for the first time in the EPL era.   Goals scored per game in the Rodgers era is another area to witness our growth as a reference point.

LFC Goal Frequencies
Zero goals:             2012-13 (eight)  -   Record in those games 0-3-5
                                   2013-14 (two)  -   Record in those games 0-2-0                 10

One goal:                2012-13 (twelve)-   Record in those games 3-6-3   
                                   2013-14 (six)  -   Record in those games 3-3-0                 18

Two goals:               2012-13 (six)  -   Record in those games 1-0-5
                                   2013-14 (three)  -   Record in those games 1-0-2                  9

Three goals            2012-13 (six)   -   Record in those games 6-0-0
                                  2013-14 (four)  -    Record in those games 3-0-1                  10

Four goals              2012-13 (two)   - Record in those games 2-0-0
                                  2013-14 (three)  -   Record in those games 3-0-0                    5

Five goals:             2012-13 (three)   -  Record in those games 3-0-0
                                 2013-14 (three)   -  Record in those games 3-0-0                     6

Six goals:               2012-13 (one)  - Record in those games 1-0-0                            1
                                  2013-14 (0) 

What I pull from the data is that in Rodgers' 51 games as manager (and the initial sample is probably a bit skewed considering our poor start to the 2012-13 season), we have not lost an EPL game when we have scored two goals or more.  This has happened 31 out of our 51 games thus far or 61%.  In this world and in most leagues, goals = results/wins.  Also, I think this points an unusual stat that while we have played many close games, the results tend not to be one goal games (except in the first three games of the season).  We have gotten better at being more lethal against teams and not letting them hang around and nick a result as well.

While our record is closer to the .500 mark in getting a result when we score only one goal, as many have noted here when we get one, there is usually more coming.  I think this is a tremendously positive trend, especially when you consider that five shutouts for LFC occurred before the January 2013 transfer window (before we got Sturridge and Coutinho). 

I think this puts into context the issue of the recent criticism of LFC's defense needing to get better in some respects.  One might be able to make the case that as long as we are able to score goals (at least 2 per game), then our record has proven that we will be fine.  As so many have written about recently, I am not sure our defense needs improving as much as getting our midfield sorted out.  The games where we completely dominated midfield have relieved pressure on the back four and have provided confidence for our attacking players.  ElstonGunn and Phase of Play have written about this extensively, so I will defer to them on this.  However, at current rate we are scoring so much that we might focus on how to keep this trend going rather than be too hyper-vigilant about defensive errors.  It is also worth a mention that our away scoring is pretty effective (24 goals of 51 total).  As we move into the bottom half of the table away, we can be confident in our home and away scoring.  Many of these clubs have really struggled where our leading scorer Suarez (22) has more or tied with 8 of bottom 10 clubs.  Suarez will expect to pass West Brom's team total next (23) and has Swansea in his sights (26).   

This brings me to our last few uplifting positives.  The schedule notwithstanding (only playing 2 top 10 clubs on the road - Southampton and the Mancs), we have not conceded a re-start goal in four games.  Some here may think, "so what we gave up too many of them previously", but there has been some improvement, especially since the sides we have played against since Kompany's header:  Chelsea, Hull, Oldham (FA), and Stoke are pretty good on restarts.  This has got to be seen as a positive.   

Lastly, we may bring in a reinforcement or two, which help us gain, keep, and dominate the ball --- making us damn difficult to beat.  Also, we have yet to have our best team healthy yet or to even know what that looks like (even with the events at White Hart Lane, home to Norwich).  I am not sure we have seen the foursome of Sturridge, Suarez, Sterling and Coutinho or SAS-SAC at full force.  While the experiment of Gerrard at holding mid might change the dynamic, this author's thesis is supported by the data ------ 2 goals means a sure result and 3 is a sure victory.   

Of course Twain reminds about lies, damn lies, and stats, and the Stoke game sure did not feel like a 5 goal scorcher from an offensive juggernaut, more of roller coaster really.  However, when we read the nervy posts of a few supporters worrying about the next games' result, remind them of how well we do in getting a result when we score 1 (50%) 2 (100%) and 3 or more (3 pts.) under the Rodgers regime.  This is how it should be really, but as the season unwinds, we are rooting for open play, tired legs for defenders in the league and to keep SAS going!  With so many games left at Anfield and more goals to be bagged, I believe our offensive output will get us to Champions League Football and give us a chance to keep Suarez, recruit another world class midfield and give Stevie a chance at the title next year.  As we move to next year, I think the next big step for the club will be how well do we do in 1 goal games against top sides.  However, I am not sure we have to focus on this aspect just yet as we want to install an attractive, attacking brand of football, get the money/recruiting allure from making the Champions league and expand Anfield to generate more revenue.  By next summer, if we have done all of this, we will be well on our way. 

 

[moloch]

If you look at the top performing teams in Europe this season, there's a pattern (or it seems to me there is) about how often they shut the other team out.
Arsenal (before tonight) have kept a clean sheet in 45% of their games.
Chelsea in 38%
City in 38%
Roma in 63%
Juve 57%
Napoli 36%
Atletico 52%
Barca 52%
Real 31%
Bayern 56%

Ours is 28.5%.

Just to throw this out here... our clean sheet percentage on our last title challenging season was 53 %.

Surely this has to be our next aim?

I would be surprised if this is not taken under consideration by the manager. We have also been very unlucky with defensive injuries this season which probably makes situation look worse than it maybe actually is.

[Cpt_Reina]

I agree with your general point, but the only teams you listed who have scored more than us are City, Barca and Real. Atletico are averaging .07 more goals per game, but have played fewer. Bayer are a few hundreths fewer per game, and Juve are just about equal.

When you think about that, that's incredible. We're scoring goals like the very best teams in the world. We certainly don't have the players to match those clubs' talent level (except maybe Atletico), so we've achieved it through a combination of a) spending more money on attackers than the rest of the side and b) playing an attacking game. I certainly agree that we have to focus on keeping goals out, but let's not lose sight of how our current set up has turned us into one of the best attacking sides in the world, and we shouldn't be willing sacrifice what we're best at to add a few more clean sheets.

But those are the teams that are on another level to us aren't they? They're the ones slugging it out for the very top prize. As much as we're doing very well you'd be optimistic to say we're title contenders.

Doesn't that prove exactly what I'm saying? That marrying the attacking side, which we seem to have down, with more defensive solidity is the next step for this team?

As for the sacrifice, it remains to be seen just how much of a sacrifice it would be cos we're just not doing it right now. We're content to just trade blows. It wouldn't harm out attacking prowess to focus a tad more on how to defend set pieces would it? That wouldn't tie one hand behind our back in an attacking sense. And could well result in our clean sheet ratio increasing and therefore *perhaps* our comfort in the top 4.

It just needs tweaks you feel. But the attack appears to be working, time to look elsewhere for improvements.

[DutchRed]

We all know that Suarez is great and that he's arguably the best striker in the world right now, but I wanted to point to something that shouldn't be downplayed - his first goal was a marvelous application of street footie!

It reminded me of this moment I had the pleasure to attend. Start at 06:28

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXSYSMxVJ5c

It's this long ball, this hopeless ball. Stam and Stekelenburg, two top-class players, were over it yet Suarez just persisted and forced the error. It's the sort of goals he scored shedloads of over here and I never thought he'd cut it in the Premier League with comparable goal stats, but he's now doing it..

[steveeastend]

Arsenal (before tonight) have kept a clean sheet in 45% of their games.
Chelsea in 38%
City in 38%
Roma in 63%
Juve 57%
Napoli 36%
Atletico 52%
Barca 52%
Real 31%
Bayern 56%

Ours is 28.5%.

First of all these stat is ripped out of context as these clean sheets don't mean that much as we are outscoring all of those best teams in europe. You happily ignored that.

Second you forget that we are not anywhere near those teams in terms of squad quality with the exception of Napoli and Roma, the fact that we have a decent squad for ONE year now and still you insist to expect us to be on the same level as those teams in every fucking area of our play. If we would be good in keeping clean sheets you bang on how we cannot score enough, I am pretty sure.

I think you are missing the big picture and the entire point big time at the moment. Your post is not only missing the entire story of our defending, which is way from being that bad as you make it out, you are missing to give credit to the players and Rodgers at a point where they would surely deserve it. Of course there are a lot of things to work on left, but your lack of football knowledge makes it impossible to realise how much we progressed over the last year, which is a pitty, especially for yourself.

Finally let me list the reasons why we aren't top.... three games with a lack of concetration, Newcastle away, Southampton home, Hull away with an off day of pretty much all our players. Nothing to do with the number of clean sheets, absolutely nothing.

[stevied]

Well at a ground that we always seem to struggle bar from one glory night years ago and with the weather serving up its usual Brittannia shite i thought we did brilliantly, yes there were defensive frailties but bloody hell we are good to watch at the moment, this was a huge 3 points City Chelsea and Everton have struggled there, Stoke would have looked outside and thought everything was right up there street to beat us but we were great. Move on, Villa up next play at this current pace and tenacity we could get 6 or 7 against them they are shit

[MiserableP15]

Periodisation is a thing

Pop, in your previous post you said we're on 4 games. We're actually only on 2 wins in a row in the league after the Chelsea and Manchester City results unless I'm missing something.

Does anyone know what the most we've won in a row under Rodgers is? I don't think we've actually got past 4 have we?

[MiserableP15]

Alternatively, he was beaten to both balls but his persistence paid off. I think you're being a little kind, there.

I genuinely think he anticipates both. Clearly he anticipates the first one, the second he's just in there causing havoc waiting to see what happens.

Either way it's outstanding strike play. For example look at the way right at the start of the .gif he gets his head down and sprints that little bit harder just to get an extra yard closer to Wilson to pressurise the back header.

I play as a striker and can tell you that does not come easy. He knows from the minute that ball is up in the air that he's got a chance of something.

[Cpt_Reina]

I think I was saying that this is what we should be aspiring towards. That's why I used such phrases as;

'Expectations of us right now aren't necessarily to be one of those clubs, yet'

'But we'd like to be eventually I'm sure.'

'It'd be nice right now if we could start making a few moves towards tightening things up in anticipation of it.'

'Surely this has to be our next aim?'
 
And then;

'Doesn't that prove exactly what I'm saying? That marrying the attacking side, which we seem to have down, with more defensive solidity is the next step for this team?.

Reading before posting really isnt that hard.

[steveeastend]

Reading before posting really isnt that hard.

I got your point pretty early on with the way you have been banging on this issue for weeks, thanks. Maybe if you trust people being able to read you wouldn't have to post the same thing over and over again.

The point is though that your arguments are wrong and are giving a wrong reflection of what's going on.

[Cpt_Reina]

I got your point pretty early on with the way you have been banging on this issue for weeks, thanks. Maybe if you trust people being able to read you wouldn't have to post the same thing over and over again.

Its easy enough to ignore.

[Upinsmoke]

How deep is Skrtel, jesus christ.

[ChaChaMooMoo]

What goes beyond me is, given the tactics that Stoke employed (attacking far far wide!), we donated them a free pass to send in over 60 crosses.

- Given the magnitude of crosses that were sent in the first 30 minutes, why wasnt anything done to attack the crosses? I had a mate tell me that in the first 30 minutes, Stoke managed 25 crosses. Discounting the accuracy of the crosses but considering the fact that over 62 crosses were made over the 90 minutes, I would have to criticise our teams inability/reluctance to attack the crosses.

- Given the criticism that Johnson already faces, around the 72nd minute, I noticed that Johnson collected the ball from Skrtel, and intended to play the ball to Henderson on the wings. There was Cameron waiting for the pass. He was inclining towards his left, awaiting the pass. And Johnson, not only did not see this, made the pass which was intercepted obviously, but was very slow in tracking back to prevent an attack on the wings. I think it was Skrtel who tackled it for a corner. The commentators were praising Skrtel. But this obviously wasnt the only one where Johnson would be criticised. He deserves a talking.

- Given point#2, does anyone think that Rodgers has made the fullback position his last priority? As in, when Rodgers took over, we signed strikers and midfielders. Last January and Summer, we signed strikers and central defenders. And with every signing we can see the purpose of it - Rodgers system. Does anyone think that the form that Johnson and Enrique project right now, indicates that the full back position has to be tweaked to get the best of them?

[mrantarctica]

Excellent win for us. It was a strange match because we played with a new CB pairing and a new holding CM so I wasn't surprised that we conceded but the manner of the goals conceded was disappointing. Yet again, we failed to close down a player on the flank and put pressure before he could whip in a cross, and yet again there was an opposition player who had a free header. Yet again we had an advanced midfielder have time to run at Skrtel and get his shot off without being closed down. I thought we were guilty of giving the ball away too easily at times but at Stoke this is always very difficult to settle on the ball and there were large periods where I though we had plenty of the ball and moved it around well. The conditions were difficult too. That aside, Our goals were very well taken. No complaints there. Coutinho possibly a little wasteful again. Soft penalty but this is football, we'd complain bitterly if it went against us. Take it and move on. A well deserved 3 points in a place that most don't even get anything.

I thought Johnson had a poor game, and Hendo or Coutinho weren't at their best. It was great to see SAS get back to their scoring ways however. I thought Cissokho played ok but it's becoming evident that he's not an upgrade on Enrique. The goal would've been great for his confidence, but I think he can't get forward as much because Coutinho is quite a bit weaker than Sterling defensively. Perhaps we'll see more if we revert to the same shape we did when Sturridge came on. With Hendo covering and having the engine to recover, he might have a bit more license to overlap and try to get behind the defenders.

Few interesting posts above. Some have mentioned our defending and are looking at clean sheets. I remember digging up a statistic some time ago saying that the team that concedes the least invariably wins the league on most occasions. I suspect that reflects clean sheets. We've conceded 26 which is on par with the teams in mid table. As pointed out, we have a new GK and relative newcomers in our back 4. We've been pretty unlucky with injuries. Hopefully we can get Sakho back and Ennrique back and build a bit of consistency. Ultimately, I couldn't care less how many we concede, as long as we're winning!

Relieved we didn't pick up any further injuries. I was secretly convinced that Adam would clatter someone with a stereotypical clumsy challenge and when I saw him catch Sterling I thought that was it, but thankfully he just carried on.

[SMacDougall]

I'd put a grand on no other team scoring 5 goals at Stoke.

[beardsleyismessimk1]

Anyone know why the team were in London last night ?

[hesbighesred]

Just on our defending in the Stoke game - I haven't watched the full match yet but it didn't seem like our defending was that bad, really. They played well overall, we played relatively poorly I think, not as cohesive as usual and we gave the ball away a lot - didn't get our foot on it, keep possession and take the sting out of it.

But from what I saw they were struggling to create any sort of chances, we defended their set-pieces well, and ultimately their goals were from a phenomenal cross from deep and an absolutely fantastic header - you'll struggle to see a better headed goal than that all season (Suarez' wonder-goal aside). I don't think Sackho or Agger would have made a difference there - it was great movement from Crouch,  great anticipation and perfect execution of an immensely difficult chance.

The second goal was an unbeatable hit set up by Adam falling over, complete confustion from a completely unintentional 'trick' as it were.

The third goal was poor from Mignolet, but that's about the only clear chance I can remember us conceding. It's the only one I'd be a little worried about - does Mignolet need to improve on shots like that? Does he need to stand up and use his feet more, perhaps?

Plus - 5 goals away at Stoke. A lucky penalty in our favour against Stoke. Another win. A win in a tough game with serious pressure on our league position. Suarez and Sturridge. All of these things and more make me very happy indeed. It's going to be a very interesting rest of season, it would be truly wonderful if we could open up some sort of gap on 5th place but it will be difficult - the matches between the top sides will be very crucial this season, it's incredible how different the table would look if we'd taken points of City and or Chelsea. That situation could easily flip with our games at Anfield, just as it could be the death-knell in our hopes if we don't get enough points in those games.

It's nice to feel like points against the dross are increasingly 'bankers' though, and not just that but we're juuuust starting to build an aura about us that is going a long way towards beating teams before we even get onto the pitch. Suarez' first goal had a bit of that about it, just panic in their defence from his mere presence, and a kind of ultimate doom when Sturridge came on too, a kind of 'as if we didn't have enough to deal with...' repeat that Southampton game now and I think we'd win it, and them aside we really aren't going to have many trickier aways than Stoke left.

Great stuff and as others have said another barrier perhaps broken.

It would be nice if we could put together a run of clean sheets though (even though as I said I don't think we defended that badly in this game overall), and it would also be nice if, when we did concede, we could limit it to one goal!

[timmyonions]

It was a fantastic offensive performance but at the back.....well i suppose we have to put our defensive inconsistancies down  to our ever changing back four.The fact that we`ve had so much injuries in defense this season has prevented us from having a stable back four for a period.If you look at the teams around us at the top,who are doing better than expected (Arsenal,Everton) they`ve had there settled back four more or less from day one.We`ve played johnson,enrique,sahko,Skrtel,toure,agger,flanagan,cissoko all in many different sequences throughout the season.It reallly makes it difficult to gain some continuity and make yourself solid and dependable.

If we can get a settled back four in there,playing together for a few games in a row at least,it will give us a good base to kick on.We do struggle from crosses but for me our wide players are not doing enough to stop some the crosses in the first place.For crouches goal on sunday i thought Glen and Luis had the chance to prevent the cross and didn`t.

Mentally,games like these can benifit us as far as believing we as a team can go again when we have a setback.Like throwing away a two goal lead within minutes before halftime and picking ourselves up after halftime and taking the lead.Once again after Stoke made it 3-4.It has to work wonders for self belief.Although as Corkboy said,it wouldn`t be something i`d like to go through all that often.

One last word on our attack and despite how good the SAS are right now,the most pleasing thing for me is the emergance in form of Raheem Sterling.The lad has really grabbed his chance and never hides when the going gets tough.And last sunday will be as tough as it gets,physically.

[robertobaggio37]

Again, I am pretty disappointed on the reactions around here. A win against Stoke away, a place where we couldn't take anything for years which gives you an idea of how difficult it is to win there and how much it takes to gain three points from this fixture.

There was a lot of talk on how this to be some sort of a "strange" game we had, as it was some sort of a coincidence why we won and how we will be paying for some mistakes pretty soon, but, frankly, people couldn't be more off here. It's the way how the team works together as a team,  which makes us the strong team we are at the moment and winning on a regular basis, just as it wasn't a coincidence when we couldn't win often enough under Hodgson for example, despite having probably the same overall squad quality around.

We win as a team, the way how the players work together in terms of our tactical concept and it's first and foremost the players who make the vision of Rodgers work with their will and effort they put in day in day out in training to work on that and on match day for quite some time now.

For some reasons though, fans recently put their sight on players individually and not in terms of what they contribute to our overall play which is not only totally wrong, it also takes away everything which is really important for our success at the moment. It's not about Jordan Henderson scoring a screamer from 20 yards, it's about his contribution to our passing which makes him the important player he developed into recently. Under Hodgson f.e., there were probably less individual mistakes happening (from Skrtel f.e.) with players maybe having better moments individually (like Lucas f.e.) but what does it mean really? It's a team game, it needs a team spirit, a game plan for the entire team we make mistakes as team just as we win as team.

Sorry for repeating myself but I think it really needs to point out as the critics on individual mistakes of players seems to be more important than what players contribute to our overall game.

We play top football because ALL our first 14 players keep on working for our overall tactical game, the way Rodgers wants us to be playing football. And that's why we are winning games.

Good balanced post mate.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Few interesting posts above. Some have mentioned our defending and are looking at clean sheets. I remember digging up a statistic some time ago saying that the team that concedes the least invariably wins the league on most occasions. I suspect that reflects clean sheets. We've conceded 26 which is on par with the teams in mid table. As pointed out, we have a new GK and relative newcomers in our back 4. We've been pretty unlucky with injuries. Hopefully we can get Sakho back and Ennrique back and build a bit of consistency. Ultimately, I couldn't care less how many we concede, as long as we're winning!

That's not strictly true though (although it's not far off being true). In the last 10 years, the winning team has only had the best defensive record 6 out of the 10 years, so only slightly more than half. Of the remaining 4 years, the best defensive record team has been seen to have finished as low as fourth. It's important, but the more telling statistic is that the winning team has conceded no more than a goal per game over the course of the season, and often just less than that (0.84 goals per game on average). We're currently at 1.23 goals against per game, which is not title contender standard,  but on the other hand it is not too far off (the highest "goals against per game" for the league winners over the last ten years has been United in 2010-11 and 2012-13 with 0.97 goal against per game on average, and 1.13 goals against per game on average respectively). A few clean sheets against the lower teams would bring that figure closer to title-winning standard over the course of the season. On top of that, though, the league winners 8 out of 10 years have had the highest goalscoring total, so we know that the team is capable of attacking it's way into contention for the league. One on the right side, or a sustained injury-free period for one or both of Sakho and Agger, and we could rapidly reduce the goals against column which could swing us into serious title contenders - this season or next. Right now, it's worrisome, but not overly so. A small tweak to our circumstances could change our defensive fortunes dramatically. That's the beauty of our situation. We know the areas we need to improve in, and they don't need two sets of fingers to count them with. We're very, very close to being a very strong first 14, at least.

[stara]

Anyone know why the team were in London last night ?

Late xmas dinner. If I recall correctly team decided to concentrate City/Chelsea and have xmas dinner later date.

[DanA]

It was a good performance overall in that we finished our chances and looked the better team but we definitely conceded too many corners and crosses, particularly on Cissokho's side. I think that's largely solved if we get Enrique back and firing. I suspect we'll tighten things up defensively with him back in the team and while he is very one footed he's twice the player on the ball Cissokho appears to be.

The team we finished with seems extremely promising too. Sturridge and Suarez up top has a lot of pace and obviously the ability to find the net while Sterling did a good job of stretching the opposition and giving the SAS partnership space. The way Sterling first stretched the defence and then held up the ball for Sturridge's goal a classic example of something he could offer us. It also struck me as a good balance with Henderson helping out in midfield (despite the error) and Sterling offering width as an accountable winger. Like most of what we've played this season I don't think it's the long term solution but I do think it could pay dividends for us this season and performing well against he other top teams.

[beardsleyismessimk1]

Late xmas dinner. If I recall correctly team decided to concentrate City/Chelsea and have xmas dinner later date.

Thanks for that, met someone on the train coming home last night who saw them at a hotel in the city.

[Mr_Shane]

Our defensive woes could be due to the fact that Gerrard and Lucas were playing slightly different roles. For all the crosses they put into the box, they scored from one could possibly have two more - one off the posy by Crouch and the other an almost Gerrard own goal. The other two they cut through us due to confusion (?) in the defending players

[Yorkykopite]

For me this game was all about Charlie Adam having his tea half way through the second half.

But what a great three points. Two more than I thought we'd get. The good stuff has been commented on aplenty. Sterling's excellence, Suarez getting a routine brace, and Sturridge reminding everyone that he's a special player. The dinked pass to Suarez for the 4th was beautifully conceived. The little header that took the ball away from Butland and created the angle for the 5th goal was genius. The man has a calm and clear head inside the penalty box and that's why he gets goals. Then there was some of Lucas's tackling, especially in the first half. Thunderous! Great to see Stoke players getting the heavy treatment on their own ground. I thought some didn't fancy it much after that.

The concerns are obvious but I'll mention them anyway. The centre back/goalkeeper triangle is not working.  Once Charlie Adam tired (as he always does) and Stoke reverted to lofting balls into our box we were extremely vulnerable. Neither Skrtel or Toure likes a scrap in the air and Mignolet is a line-bound keeper. There's a nervousness back there and it encourages all our opponents who know that they don't have to worry too much if they fall behind.

The clue to how things might go came after a mere 30 seconds. Toure missed a simple interception and Skrtel, mopping up and under no pressure, miscued the ball for a Stoke corner. Simple, simple stuff, carelessly done. Soon after that Mignolet fumbled a simple cross and the defensive tone was set for the afternoon.

Toure played his best game going forwards. For once he was positive on the ball and that helped open things up for Coutinho and the others. But defensively, he's just not there. He lacks the dark arts when it comes to defending high balls. We saw that with Crouch's opening goal. Initially Crouch moved into Toure before moving back into the pocket of space he'd created for himself to meet the cross. It was a good header but Toure should have done what all smart centre backs do in that situation - give the forward a little shove with the hips and throw him off balance. Crouch was asking for it with that initial movement. It never came.

Skrtel has the dark arts, although 'art' is hardly the word for all that shirt-pulling. It happened again around the quarter hour mark when he pulled Cameron back from Charlie Adam's floated free kick. What will make him stop doing this? The referee blowing for a penalty I guess. Fortunately we are blessed when it comes to this. No ref, so far as I can remember, has ever called Skrtel on this. Long may that continue. But will it?

It was in the last 15 minutes that we saw how weak the triangle is. Another inocuous looking Stoke cross from the deep was mis-read by Toure who headed the ball towards his goal. From the resultant corner Mignolet left his line for once but, unimpeded by a single player, still flapped at the ball. It dropped on to a Stoke foot. The player messed up his shot. They do that at Stoke. They won't do it at Southampton.

Then the goalie and centre backs made the decision to stop playing the ball out and hit long from goalkicks. In the 83rd minute Mignolet's kick came straight back and Walters almost scored (denied by a fine save). The next goal-kick came straight back too and this time Walters did score. It was shit football all round by Liverpool - and a reminder that keep-ball, even in your own half, is less hazardous than simply whacking the thing upfield to the opposition.

Even at 3-5 it wasn't over as yet another cross found its way on to the post via Crouch's head. Crouch then planted another, firmer, header wide. Crouch will win balls in the air. We know that. But is it too much to ask then he actually feels a challenge when he rises? Something to throw him off a bit?

I'm griping and I don't really mean to. It was a wonderful performance on the whole. Our attack is fantastic and we score so many goals that it's likely we'll finish in the top 4. Only Man City can match us for flair and invention. But what we might achieve if we get the central defence sorted out and the goalie learned to leave his line.





 

[redtel]

I recall an earlier table where someone said enjoy the ride this season.

Spot on, Sunday was a white knuckle one which did my heart no favours.

I can't recall a game with such contrasting performances at either side of the half-way line from our team but maybe we should prepare for more. Beauty and the beast.

Aly kicked it all off with his great strike in off the villain which was just as surprising a goal as his lookalike  Djimi scored at the other end at Turf Moor that time. Do all French LB's run like that.

Luis then played pretend head tennis with the two giant CB's without attempting to head it once but still managed to roll the ball into the net as I relaxed and thought this could be another Spuds. No chance.

The Stoke replacement for Assaidi was so out of the game that Luis and Glen decided to let him try and cross the ball if he wanted to. Leave him, no danger. I had a little sympathy for Toure who could see two players marking the winger and didn't expect him to cross unchallenged from that area. Within minutes Stevie slips and Skrtel finds reverse gear instead of one of the four forward gears available and Adam's left foot accepts gladly.

After h.t. we didn't fold as we may have in the past and full credit to Brendan for this. This team believes it can score and the penalty was only the starter to a main course and desert of SAS which leaves us all wanting more next Saturday. The 4th goal was cleverly constructed by Sturridge who amazingly looked faster carrying the ball than he did pre-injury.

The 5th was the icing on the cake as I saw the three touches Sturridge made but didn't quite understand how he did it without Butland getting a block on the ball. Replays showed he took the ball just far enough away to complete the illusion. Great technique and confidence.

Brendan likes to take risks. He had to make another CB change which gave us the Hull away pairing but he still was brave enough to swap the midfield around. The result says he was correct but how long will he leave Gerrard in that position. Villa at home should be ok   but will he persist with this midfield in the FA Cup or rest him before WBA away. If Allen is fit by then he may change it again.

We were successful at The Brittania at last but Lucas and Henderson didn't perform to their best levels so I think the jury is still out regarding where they play. Lastly, I wonder if Glen has spoken to Steve Peters as his head seems in a bad place to me or is he battle weary.