Author Topic: Ground share - a question  (Read 6687 times)

Offline Hermes

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Ground share - a question
« on: December 3, 2004, 11:05:04 pm »

 I'm for a groundshare, on the basis of economics only. Although I have doubts that we will need the increased capacity in the future. In my view a £130m for a stadium with NWDA putting up £40m and Everton splitting the rest saves us £85m that can be spent on players to win trophies- "The reason for the club's existence" as David Moores said a few years ago. I can live with a groundshare on that basis. Forget the arguements for and against and consider this, if you fully back the need for a new stadium:

 ARE YOU WILLING TO SEE THE PLANS FOR THE NEW STADIUM COLLAPSE THROUGH SPIRALLING COSTS RATHER THAN SHARE?

 Give your views but remember to answer the question, assuming none of you are politicians of course.  ;D

 
« Last Edit: December 3, 2004, 11:06:47 pm by Hermes »

Offline fudge

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Re: Ground share - a question
« Reply #1 on: December 3, 2004, 11:09:00 pm »
I would just like to see all avenues explored and not have the standard "i'd rather shag my gran than share with the blueshite" style comments.
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Offline Millsee

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Re: Ground share - a question
« Reply #2 on: December 3, 2004, 11:11:55 pm »
Simply put, I would rather stay at Anfield than groundshare.

We generate £25m cash a year. The clubs financial position is generally healthy.

I would not sell my soul to compromise this.

(PS - this could go on the appropriate forum  :wave)

Offline Hermes

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Re: Ground share - a question
« Reply #3 on: December 3, 2004, 11:13:41 pm »
I would just like to see all avenues explored and not have the standard "i'd rather shag my gran than share with the blueshite" style comments.

 That's what I said, but you put it more eloquently.  ;D

Offline Rashid

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Re: Ground share - a question
« Reply #4 on: December 3, 2004, 11:13:52 pm »
I'd rather stay at Anfield, refurbish Anfield, and stick with the 55,000 capacity that we can manage.

Sharing a ground would be sickening, and we won't have to if what Dunk on KopTalk is saying is true... Mr Kruft will be coming and soon...

Offline Hugh

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Re: Ground share - a question
« Reply #5 on: December 3, 2004, 11:15:59 pm »
I'd rather stay at a 45,000 Anfield and lose potentially millions than share with Everton.

Offline Hermes

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Re: Ground share - a question
« Reply #6 on: December 3, 2004, 11:16:10 pm »

(PS - this could go on the appropriate forum  :wave)

 Cut me some slack eh, I'm new here. Cut and paste it smartarse :)

Offline Millsee

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Re: Ground share - a question
« Reply #7 on: December 3, 2004, 11:21:04 pm »
Cut me some slack eh, I'm new here. Cut and paste it smartarse :)

Read the fucking rules then numbnuts.  :)

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Re: Ground share - a question
« Reply #8 on: December 3, 2004, 11:27:42 pm »
we won't have to if what Dunk on KopTalk is saying is true...

:lmao

Offline Hermes

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Re: Ground share - a question
« Reply #9 on: December 3, 2004, 11:29:47 pm »
Read the fucking rules then numbnuts.  :)

 Rules only exist to be broken, the rules also mention no profanities.

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Re: Ground share - a question
« Reply #10 on: December 3, 2004, 11:30:14 pm »
Rules only exist to be broken, the rules also mention no profanities.

They do? Where the fuck is that then ???

Offline Armin

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Re: Ground share - a question
« Reply #11 on: December 3, 2004, 11:35:53 pm »
I'm for a groundshare, on the basis of economics only

What you save in immediate outlay has to be balanced against the potential damage to the clubs prestige, brand and image.  The potential income streams from the new stadium would be diluted and our ability to use the stadium for marketing purposes negated.

Long term I don't believe it would benefit the club.  Short term it might allow more funds to be spent on the team, but I'd rather protect the long term interests of the club than sell them down the river for a temporary boost to the transfer kitty.

If costs escalate beyond a level which the club can afford then of course I'd be willing to see the plan collapse.  I certainly don't accept the premise that a groundshare would be an acceptable alternative.
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Offline Mottman

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Re: Ground share - a question
« Reply #12 on: December 3, 2004, 11:39:10 pm »
I'd rather stay at Anfield, refurbish Anfield, and stick with the 55,000 capacity that we can manage.

Sharing a ground would be sickening, and we won't have to if what Dunk on KopTalk is saying is true... Mr Kruft will be coming and soon...

Rashid,

My PC's playing up so I don't know if this thread will be posted until later.

Can I ask one question... are you sleeping with Dunk on Koptalk, you quoted him in another thread and now this one.

I'm sure many us would respect you more if you stopped quoting from someone who has as much idea as anyone else.



   
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Offline BazC

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Re: Ground share - a question
« Reply #13 on: December 3, 2004, 11:42:14 pm »
 ;D mottman
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Offline Rashid

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Re: Ground share - a question
« Reply #14 on: December 3, 2004, 11:48:58 pm »
Rashid,

My PC's playing up so I don't know if this thread will be posted until later.

Can I ask one question... are you sleeping with Dunk on Koptalk, you quoted him in another thread and now this one.

I'm sure many us would respect you more if you stopped quoting from someone who has as much idea as anyone else.



   

I never quote his boillox, but I do know his connections with Jeffries are genuine hence my quotes are for a reason!

Offline Hinesy

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Re: Ground share - a question
« Reply #15 on: December 4, 2004, 12:00:40 am »
I'm for a groundshare, on the basis of economics only. Although I have doubts that we will need the increased capacity in the future. In my view a £130m for a stadium with NWDA putting up £40m and Everton splitting the rest saves us £85m that can be spent on players to win trophies- "The reason for the club's existence" as David Moores said a few years ago. I can live with a groundshare on that basis. Forget the arguements for and against and consider this, if you fully back the need for a new stadium:

 ARE YOU WILLING TO SEE THE PLANS FOR THE NEW STADIUM COLLAPSE THROUGH SPIRALLING COSTS RATHER THAN SHARE?

 Give your views but remember to answer the question, assuming none of you are politicians of course. ;D

 

winning trophies on an unplayable pitch, surrounded by someone elses memories in a house without a soul

No. Unworkable in football terms, unpalatable in emotional terms, unacceptable in my terms.
Yep.

Offline silver 5 star

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Re: Ground share - a question
« Reply #16 on: December 4, 2004, 12:12:47 am »
winning trophies on an unplayable pitch, surrounded by someone elses memories in a house without a soul

No. Unworkable in football terms, unpalatable in emotional terms, unacceptable in my terms.

Could not have been put better.

Liverpool Football Club.

Shankly. Paisley. Rome 77 and 84. Paris. Trips to Wembley - when it WAS Wembley. St.Etienne, Inter Milan and Roma at Anfield. The Kop. Keegan. Dalglish. Losing the championship to Arsenal at Anfield. Glory. Heartache. Tears of Joy, Laughter and Sorrow. Hillsborough.

Sharing a stadium with Bluenoses and their only response to the above would be:

"What about Heysel"?

Share a stadium. No. Not with Me and not with many thousands of others.

"This is Anfield" is not just a sign above the tunnel.

It is who we are. Who we were and who we are going to be.

End Of.
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Offline Hermes

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Re: Ground share - a question
« Reply #17 on: December 4, 2004, 12:15:37 am »
[

"This is Anfield" is not just a sign above the tunnel.

It is who we are. Who we were and who we are going to be.

End Of.[/b]

 I understand all those sentiments, but the fact is whether we share or not the new stadium is not Anfield. There will be no nostalgia in the new stadium.

Offline Big Red Richie

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Re: Ground share - a question
« Reply #18 on: December 4, 2004, 12:37:42 am »
Questions ???......... Would you share you house with your neighbor, who although you don't hate, generally gets on your tits most of the time........ Every time you want to decorate the lounge, you have to ask his permission and seek his approval/agreement....... You may want to use the bathroom at short notice, but can't because it's his turn on the rota that day........The lawn looks permanently f**ked, because it gets twice as much use, and have to re-lay it every six months......And to top it all, he's having money troubles which mean he may not be able to pay his half of the mortgage in the near future...........The bottom line is, IN YOUR OWN HOUSE, - YOU'RE YOUR OWN BOSS........... You make your own decisions which are right for you, without needing anybody Else's approval. If that means struggling to find the mortgage yourself, so be it. At least your the boss, and have free reign to do what is right for yourself

Offline kopite77

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Re: Ground share - a question
« Reply #19 on: December 4, 2004, 12:40:48 am »
I understand all those sentiments, but the fact is whether we share or not the new stadium is not Anfield. There will be no nostalgia in the new stadium.
Well if groundshare is a prerequisite to Stanley Park I would rather 1, stay at Anfield and either stay at 45.000 or see if we can extend any further or, 2, Sell Anfield to the highest bidder, whoever that may be and move outside the city boundaries and tell Morgan, his wife, Kenwright, Wyness, Storey, NWDA and Tom Cannon to FUCK OFF! I can't put it any planer than that, after all if the groundshare goes ahead me and many other Season ticket holders will not set foot inside the souless purple seated pit ever again, so the very reason to move to a bigger stadium becomes redundant! :upyours :puke
HARRY HARRIS, MARK LAWRENSON, JOSE MOURIHNO,PETER KENYON, ROMAN ABRAMOVICH, ALAN HANSEN, YOU GUY'S TOOK ONE HELL OF A BEATING

AND Mr KENWRIGHT YOU CAN STICK YOUR FUCKING GROUNDSHARE UP YOUR ARSE!

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Offline Hinesy

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Re: Ground share - a question
« Reply #20 on: December 4, 2004, 12:46:44 am »
I understand all those sentiments, but the fact is whether we share or not the new stadium is not Anfield. There will be no nostalgia in the new stadium.


the day after the first match, the nostalgia starts.
The first goal we score in our home, is the second the new memories start.
That's what being a supporter is all about - emotional irrational responses to OUR club.
As much as it may be it a business these days, you asked us the supporters our opinion.
I reiterate. Get to fuck with the groundshare.
Yep.

Offline Rushian

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Re: Ground share - a question
« Reply #21 on: December 4, 2004, 12:48:26 am »
An article we published last year:

Grounds for Separation
Posted on Friday, October 03 @ 17:54:20 GMT by Rushian
 
Alan Edge writes:

Beginning if I may on a slightly philosophical tack, I’d like to turn this so-called ground sharing “debate” somewhat on its head. Actually, truth be known, I’d like to strangle it at birth. Along with, I hasten to add, all those wretched souls who have allowed such an absurd notion ever to see the light of day.

Professor Harding and motley crew, step forward please!

But first back to the head turning bit and a question of core relevance to the idea of ground-sharing; one that has been conveniently overlooked by those touting the idea.

[Q] Should football supporters have to justify to anybody - let alone outside media, bureaucrats and moneymen - their right and the right of their football clubs to retain distinct footballing homes of their own?

[A] Absolutely no way!!

I’ll attempt to elucidate.

A football club is indivisible from its home. Each is part and parcel of the same entity. The same whole. Some might even say hole but that, as we know, is an entirely different matter relating to football rivalry/banter. The point is within the context of football in these islands - and in virtually every other footballing nation, too - each football club possesses three distinct core characteristics. Its name, its colours and its home. Together all three give a football club its unique identity. Its raison d’etre. Everything else - its players, its staff, its fans, its reputation and so on and so forth - stems from that holy trinity at its core.

One of those accompanying things that do matter hugely, of course, is a club’s financial and commercial viability. Nevertheless, fundamentally, nay, crucially the dog must wag the tail. Not the other way round. In other words the club must first stand alone as a completely separate entity. Commercial considerations have always been vital and are ever more so in this day and age. Yet they can never be allowed to override that distinct essence of a football club. Otherwise what would be the point of the club existing in the first place?

It may well make sound economic sense to share the costs of building a new stadium on Merseyside or anywhere. In a football context it would, however, represent nothing but a sham. The point being that if - by the very act of sacrificing their own homes and identity - the clubs for whom it was built had…er… ceased to be the clubs for whom it was built, then exactly what purpose would have been served? Certainly none that would have benefited the city’s football faithful at any rate. Besides, even if the logistics did happen to be right then why stop with the shared stadium itself? Surely, it would make even sounder economic sense to merge everything. Lock, stock and Johnny Morrissey. Then what a cosy little Capital of Culture we’d all have. Not only the world in one city but a football team in one kit to go with it! Think of the soap powder saved!

Ridiculous?

Tell me about it.

The ethos behind retaining a club’s integrity is one that applies to any football club. It is, however, particularly pertinent within a footballing hotbed such as Liverpool where passions and loyalties run deep. Both Everton FC and Liverpool FC have existed in their current formats for well over a hundred years - each crucially within their own homes. The integrity of each club is wrapped up within those respective homes. [Yeah, yeah, we know all about the split in 1892…]

This helps explain why the practising fans of both clubs found it so galling to witness the recent spate of ground-share articles in the Daily Post and Echo. From the fans’ perspective they appeared to overlook the fans’ feelings and passions. Worse, they appeared to court the local academic and political luminaries - Messrs Harding, Henshaw, Storey and others too - in attempting to generate an agenda of ground sharing for our two great clubs when, in truth, no such agenda really existed.

It also explains why even the newspapers’ own polls showed as many as 72% of fans diametrically opposed to the idea. Indeed, most fan website polls reveal opposition to be at far higher levels. Frankly, the emphatic rejection by the fans illustrates that no mandate exists to progress this issue. There is now no remote justification - ethically, logically nor, in this instance, even practically - to invoke any meaningful discussion about the sharing of a home. On the contrary it seems patronising and insulting to any fervent practising supporter when non-partisan outsiders try to impose upon us an unwanted agenda. This is especially the case where the prima facie agenda - as distinct remember from any hidden political or financial agenda that may also possibly exist - is so inherently flawed in its conception.

Just taking Liverpool FC to illustrate this point, the retention of its Anfield identity is pivotal to the continuing worldwide renown of LFC. It is no coincidence that fans at times identify almost as much with the brand names of Anfield and The Kop as they do with Liverpool FC itself. Anfield and The Kop are not only synonymous with the club’s success but with all its accompanying drama, tradition and heritage. Take them away and Liverpool Football Club ceases to exist as the same entity. The die may already be cast in favour of a new stadium. The fact remains, however, this new stadium will still be located within one hundred yards of Anfield and will still be named Anfield. Also it will still have a specially constructed over-sized and distinctive Spion Kop end - an impossibility remember in any shared ground with our Blue cousins. These are straws to which we all cling in retaining the integrity of Liverpool FC’s identity.

What price then - in the light of all this - Liverpool FC in a commercially viable state-of-the-art shared riverside stadium yet with an, at least, partially and perhaps even significantly alienated fan base? Certainly you can count the likes of me out. No doubt whatsoever about that one. And I suspect a similar though perhaps not quite so heightened connection applies to Everton FC and its Goodison links.

The good citizens of Liverpool can testify possibly more volubly than most as to the significance of that 70’s Joni Mitchell song lyric - “Don’t it always seem to go you don’t know what you got till it’s gone”.

And boy do we know how much has gone.

An estuary teeming with peerless maritime tradition dissipated into the Mersey mist… like proverbial ships in the night. The unique and irreplaceable riverside window of the overhead railway demolished to make way for… nothing. The Cavern Club arriving overnight into an unprecedented worldwide spotlight…and then disappearing almost as quickly courtesy of a ventilation shaft for an underground railway. Huge swathes of our communities having the heart ripped out of them… and the head, limbs, guts and soul, too. That we have survived such relentless folly and destruction with our identity not only reasonably intact but with a will to fight back and re-establish so admirably some of our former pride is testimony to the resilience and spirit of the Liverpudlian.

I say Liverpudlian in the broadest sense. It goes without saying I also mean Evertonian, too. For intertwined inextricably within that local spirit of ours is the corresponding spirit of our footballing heritage manifested primarily via our two major football clubs, entities both of worldwide renown, albeit latterly with a predominantly red tinge of fame.

Reading those initial reports of ground sharing in the Echo, my heart sank. Was this to be yet another own goal of short-sighted folly? Do these people not glean anything from those disastrous bygone calamities?

Do they always have to take their cue from Sandy Brown? Ouch, sorry Blues.

A world-class facility for this city, they extol. A wonderful opportunity to grasp the nettle and move forward into the Millennium, they proclaim. To be the envy of the entire planet with a symbol of footballing ecumenism hitherto unprecedented.

What drivel. What bland, banal, sound bite opportunism. So devoid of any grasp of reality and so ignorant of and so misleading to the folk they are paid and/or elected to represent, it really is difficult to know where to begin discrediting it. Though I could certainly start by dispelling the myth of those idyllic shared Italian stadia where the contrasting home-truth reality is that those fanatical Milan and Turin tifosi would readily swap their grandmothers eye teeth for a separate home of their own. And may well yet do so.

There is no question that this city needs a new world-class facility where multifarious events can be staged. Nor that our magnificent waterfront is the ideal stage to site such a venue. Let, however, the city guardians build this potential jewel independently of our two football clubs. Let them put their money where their Mersey Tunnel mouths are. A 40,000 plus facility may not be economically viable but a 25,000 one surely is. Its mere location in such a world famous setting would guarantee its viability to attract the very best events be they rock, pop, opera or whatever. Enough public money has already been ploughed into our coffers - with more public and private funding to come - to make such a facility a long overdue necessity. I want to see a 4 hour Bruce Springsteen concert in this city as desperately as anyone. So does Bruce.

And besides, if Manchester is good enough for multiple stadia then so is our beloved city.

In the meantime, it is surely an affront to every Liverpool citizen that our paid and elected representatives should be attempting to enforce the co-operation of our two football clubs to realise such a prospect. Such petty thinking and meddling in our footballing affairs is both tawdry and unwelcome. Our football clubs are not merely convenient vehicles to carry the ulterior aspirations of ultimately small-minded power and money brokers. Rather they and the homes in which they dwell are the source of a footballing heritage that truly is unique, truly is special - and one which has taken more than a hundred years to become an integral part of the people and the fabric of the great area to which we all belong.

You don’t simply cast all that aside and hope to set up something akin to it overnight on the banks of a river. Dear Lord above bless us and preserve us from such ransackers! Indeed, rather than mortifying the faithful Red and Blue legions with ridiculous propositions to destroy such integrity with a shared stadium, should not those same guardians of our city be working alongside the clubs to ensure that the city’s two existing world famous stadia are either expanded or rebuilt to reflect the international standing of their two glorious incumbents?

I shall be the first to admit I still wince at the impending prospect of my beloved Anfield crumbling to the ground. Forty-five years attendance tends to invoke such depth of emotional attachment. Most practising Reds and Blues, I suspect, feel similar pangs concerning the respective passions of their lives. And yet conservation is not the issue here. Any more than sweeping innovation. Nor is this about the modernist versus the traditionalist. Why, it is not even really about new stadia. No, what this entire affair is really concerned about is the question of just what it is the football clubs in our city stand for. Who and what it is they represent. Just why do they exist. And the bottom line is that if those outsiders currently poking their snouts around in the undergrowth don’t happen to care or understand precisely what that entails or how much it means to those who cherish it, then I would say this to them.

Kindly shove off with your egotistical, political and commercial aspirations and don’t come back until you’ve grasped it.

© Alan Edge 2003

An edited version of "Grounds for Separation" first appeared in the Liverpool Echo on October 1st, 2003.

More articles anti the idea of a ground share can be found on the new website:

http://www.nogroundshare.com/
 
If you're going to sign up on Betfair and fancy getting a free £25 on sign-up then use my refer code 749DCNQGK and I'll also get a £25 bonus ;)

Offline Rushian

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Re: Ground share - a question
« Reply #22 on: December 4, 2004, 12:49:32 am »
And another:

We don’t want YOUR ground share
Posted on Thursday, September 18 @ 14:32:05 GMT by Rushian
 
Rushian writes:

Over the last two weeks the issue of a possible ground share between Liverpool and Everton has reared its ugly head. This hardy perennial reappeared after an initial article in The Times (“Ground share is no longer taboo” by Ashling O’Connor). The article discussed a report produced by the accountancy firm PKF, Financing Football 2003, which found that 40% of Premiership football finance directors would consider ground-sharing.


The Times piece also carried quotes from a Mr David Taylor who is leading a private consortium that wants the two clubs to share a site on Liverpool’s central docks. Mr Taylor is a director of Preston North End. The consortium consists of the Mersey Docks and Harbour Company (who with English Partnerships hold the permission to develop the site), Kajima, a Japanese construction group, and NBBJ, architects of the Philadelphia Eagles’ new stadium.

Peter Jones, chief executive of the Mersey Docks and Harbour Company was quoted as saying:

“My view is that neither club will get a new stadium unless they ground-share. Financially, it has to be the better proposal. Two new stadiums on Merseyside do not make sense. The clubs need to talk to each other.”

On top of this Bryan Gray chairman of the government-sponsored North West Development Agency (NWDA) weighed in with:

“I am keen that our two leading clubs have long-term appropriate stadiums and neither of them are in that situation at the moment … both clubs could apply for a grant if their stadium plans were considered to be of wider community benefit. It is at least healthy that there is a debate about shared facilities.”

Mr Gray’s Agency has an annual budget of £400 million it has to be seen to spend on “flagship” projects that regenerate the North West. Mr Gray is also a former chairman of Preston North End. In a statement that would send a shiver down the backs of many Reds (and Blues) he went onto declare:

“I have little time for people who say this is not something we should do because of history.”

Well I have a message for you Mr Gray. It’s not your debate to define. It’s not your history to cast away. And it’s shameful that a man so closely associated with a club Bill Shankly proudly played for could glibly cast around comments such as these.

So initially we have a private consortium looking to make a large profit and a government quango looking for a flagship project. Both are led by men with strong connections to Preston North End. I'll leave you to speculate on whether whatever personal relationship they may have conflicts with their views and decisions on this ground share “project”.

Around a week after The Times story the Daily Post and Liverpool Echo started to disgorge a series of articles (10 at the last count) either actively promoting the ground share idea or heavily weighted in the pro-camp. As an example on one day they printed seven letters on the proposed stadium share. Six were staunchly in favour. How is it that most people I talk to want nothing to do with this detestable idea? Don’t they write letters? This pro-gound share tack suddenly adopted by the Echo and Post was mysteriously absent when Everton's Kings Dock proposals were on the table less than a year ago. Why the change?

There appeared to be an (unhidden) agenda suddenly springing up. Today the agenda has taken a step on with Liverpool City Council writing to both clubs urging them to meet on the issue. Liverpool's chief executive, David Henshaw has said:

"The future success of both clubs - both on and off the field - is critical to the future success of the whole city. We are at a crucial time for the future of Anfield and Goodison Park. It is important that all the options are carefully and thoroughly examined. That must include the ground sharing option. There are many positive advantages for both clubs in sharing a stadium - not least the substantial savings to them in building a new ground and in running costs - money which could be spent by them on team development."

Liverpool council leader Mike Storey today was keen to suggest that the council does not hold a formal view on whether a ground share would be the favoured option but added:

"This is a serious issue for the city and one which needs mature debate. It is not only of enormous significance to the clubs but to the future development of the city at one of the most crucial times in its history. Substantial funding may be available to support the building of a joint stadium."

In the last week we thought we’d poll the members of Red and White Kop to gauge the general feeling on sharing with our Blue cousins. We believe that a high % of the site visitors are match goers, and if so the results should be fairly representative of the whole. The results were as follows:

Would you consider a ground share with Everton at a new stadium (total votes: 429)?

Yes if the costs were split 50:50 14.45% (62)
Yes, if Liverpool were the major financial partner 4.20% (18)
Yes, if Everton were the major financial partner 0.47% (2)
No, we should build our own new stadium 43.82% (188)
No, we should redevelop Anfield 33.33% (143)
No, there's no need to move or expand 3.73% (16)

The poll shows 81% against a ground share with a further 4% only agreeing if LFC were to effectively act as landlord to Everton. I think that’s pretty indicative of the general mood.

Among all of this white noise the voice of Liverpool Football Club has been strangely muted. There has been a couple of weak, almost meekly defensive comments regarding the plan to go ahead with a planning application in October but nothing else. Can anyone really see the Echo going out of their way to upset Liverpool FC if we’re serious about Stanley Park? These articles must surely do that yet we’ve heard not a whimper.

A suspicious mind could suggest that some sort of behind-the-scenes collusion exists. It has all the hallmarks of the softening up technique - The Echo/Post being used to drip feed the "economical sense" of a shared stadium into the collective Blue-Red consciousness before both clubs come out in support of the move. A fait accompli. As such there’s a distinctly insidious feeling surrounding the whole issue. The all-too-often-too-murky local politics of Liverpool combined with the serious money to be made by private investment firms, developers etc fills no-one with confidence that this issue will be dealt with fairly and above board.

Liverpool fans are also owed a lot by the football club. We have given tacit unspoken approval to the move to Stanley Park due to the perceived problems with expanding Anfield, the desperate need to reintroduce local youngsters to the game and the need to get more fans through the oversubscribed gates (though whether this missing generation of young local fans are the target market for the extra capacity is a point skated over with unwelcome alacrity by our club). Consultation has never been offered or invited on the issue. Fans were the one group whose views were conspicuous by their absence in the reports by Turley Associates and GVA Grimley.

The only consultation came via the Anfield4Ever group (Alan Edge, Will Melia and Tim Kelly) who through intelligent, passionate and determined analysis of the issue managed to break down the locked doors to David Moores and Rick Parry and put forward the views of those who wanted to stay at Anfield. The Chairman was impressed but Parry’s heart and head always seemed set on the move. On announcing the move to Stanley Park an olive branch of sorts was offered. It was promised that fans would have an input into the new stadium. We’re all still waiting.

The Capital of Culture title has been mentioned frequently in this week’s articles in the Echo and Post. Steve Broomhead, chief executive of the North West Development Agency, said:

"With the City of Culture year coming up in 2008 there is a view that we should look at improving the city's sporting facilities and that we should look at building a world-class venue in Liverpool.”

It may shock Mr Broomhead to know that Anfield is already considered a world-class venue by fans throughout the world. 2008 wasn’t won on the promise of building a new stadium for the city. It was won based on the art, music, museums and culture of Liverpool. An example of this was demonstrated when Europe’s leading orchestras were banging on the door of the Royal Philharmonic Hall within days of the Capital of Culture announcement, pleading to be part of the year long party. Perhaps more importantly than all of the above, the city won because of the people of Liverpool, their energy and spirit. The City doesn’t need a joint waterfront stadium to support the year’s festivities – it'll be a Trojan horse at the gates of what should be a joyous celebration.

Economics is the other issue most thrown up by the Echo, Post and the various "interested parties" as the overriding reason for ground sharing. Build together and you’ll have more to spend on transfer fees. More transfers funds = better players = more trophies. This belies the one constant in football; money wins you nothing, good management does.

Through the 80s Manchester United were easily the biggest spenders in football yet it took the youth team to drag them up by the boot straps. Liverpool through the 90s threw money at a whole range of players in an attempt to regain the top spot with dismal failure each time. The best Red players since we last won the title have been either home-grown through the Academy (McManaman, Fowler, Carragher, Gerrard, Owen) or “bargain buys” (Hyypia, Henchoz, Baros, Riise). Money is not a factor here.

LFC’s original plans predict spending 80m on a stadium and paying back 125m over 25 years at 5m a year – this mortgage easily covered by an increase in revenue of 10-12m per annum. The need just isn’t there to save 25-30m (one summer’s spending) for the sake of the future integrity of the football club and stadium. Why jeopardise the integrity of the club for 30 pieces of NWDA silver?

If economics are the major reason for sharing then why not go the whole nine yards and merge the two teams? Surely it makes economic sense to have one team in a city of 440,000 with no competition for the fanbase. Merseyside FC, with fans sat on purple seats, wearing purple Wanker Hats watching a team playing in purple kits and managed by Graham bloody Norton in a purple suit.

Whenever a ground share is mooted the proponents always refer to the examples of the Italian team that cohabit, principally Juventus and Torino, Lazio and Roma and the two Milanese giants. Conveniently the fact that in the first two examples the clubs concerned are desperate to break away from their current arrangements is quickly discarded. Juventus can’t wait to leave the Stadio delle Alpi and Lazio have plans to build their own stadium leaving Roma at the Stadio Olympico. “What about the two Milan clubs?” I hear you cry.

Their fans are very happy to have in the San Siro one of the World’s great stadia but I defy anyone to find a group of tifosi who’ll say they’re happy sharing. They’re not. If it was upto Milan fans they’d evict Inter tomorrow and vice versa, and they’ve been sharing since the 1940s (not 1990 as erroneously claimed by the Daily Post). One other thing links the above facilities – they were fully paid for by the local council and the teams went in as equal partners. Not even the most rabid Blue (apart from Dave Prentice) would suggest that Liverpool and Everton are in any sense financial equals in 2003.

No longer would the stadium be ours. Every other week you seat would be sat on by an Evertonian or an away fan. It wouldn’t be OUR tribal home where we invited both opposition teams and fans to challenge us. Instead it’d become a shared community facility. All well and good if you believe football is just another piece of popcorn entertainment but an anathema to those of us who continue to believe it is far more important than that.

Any semblance of a Kop would also cease to exist – the ground would have to be a symmetrical tub as each club would be “designated” a stand behind one goal as their home end. And there’s no chance that one would be allowed to be bigger than the other. The original plan for Stanley Park of a towering slope of humanity coursing with Red passion at one end replicating the old Kop would be replaced by just another set of seats mirroring the opposite end of the stadium. The original idea of a “new Kop” that assuaged many fans into believing in the move across Anfield Road would be cast away as unworkable. The names of Anfield and the Kop would become mere entries in the index of a history book.

And at the shared stadium itself what would else would we have? For every Shankly statue there’d have to be one of Harry Catterick. If Dixie Dean was relocated we’d demand one of Billy Liddell. The Paisley Gateway would be counterbalanced by a Howard Kendall Boulevard. If we moved our Great Eastern flagpole would they want St. Domingo’s transferred brick by brick?

There's also the issue of what would happen to the Hillsborough memorial? Hillsborough defines Liverpool Football Club more than any collection of shiny cups or great players. A separation of the stadium and memorial is unthinkable but I can't see this being a priority for any major consortium purely interested in profit (which is the only driving force behind these latest moves).

We don’t want a shared stadium, we don’t need it, and it’s wrong for Liverpool Football Club on every level. We won’t as fans be bounced into it. A ground share isn’t and never will be the answer.

To all those concerned listen hard, we don’t want YOUR ground share.

© RAWK 2003
 
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Offline john_mac

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Ground share - a question?
« Reply #23 on: December 4, 2004, 12:55:19 am »
Now I'm one of the silent minority, and many on this site may not know me, but I have been to a game or two, and I'm very well known on the most popular website in the world, that colossus that is Liverpoolfc.tv with many a fiver parter with and many, many LFC tops, shirts hats and cartoon jumpers, so here goes:

Are you a toffee?

No, well think about it!
« Last Edit: December 4, 2004, 01:02:29 am by Rushian »
We'll See Things They'll Never See

Offline Wendi

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Re: Ground share - a question
« Reply #24 on: December 4, 2004, 01:14:31 am »
What you save in immediate outlay has to be balanced against the potential damage to the clubs prestige, brand and image.  The potential income streams from the new stadium would be diluted and our ability to use the stadium for marketing purposes negated.

Armin, can you expand on these points to explan how they will be damaged or affected and how our income streams would be diluted. Im not sure I understand. Cheers. :)

Hermes. My answer to your specific question is that if the venture is not viable from a NON GShare perspective then it should not go ahead - whether we GShare or not. Reason being, if we are relying on GShare with EFC to make this project economic and they go bust, we are in the poo.
« Last Edit: December 4, 2004, 01:21:05 am by Wendi »
Sack Parry.

Offline Liver Bird

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Re: Ground share - a question
« Reply #25 on: December 4, 2004, 03:27:22 am »
groudshare? how about over my dead body, football isn't supposed to be friggin rational ,its about identity first and foremost.

everton couldn't afford to pay 30 million pound for their own stadium and now they are expected to pay up 40 million or rent from us ?its a friggin joke from start to finish.
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Offline Wi5K

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Re: Ground share - a question
« Reply #26 on: December 4, 2004, 04:27:47 am »
... In my view a £130m for a stadium with NWDA putting up £40m and Everton splitting the rest saves us £85m that can be spent on players to win trophies- ...
Where did that £85m come from? We can't spend money we don't have.

If we get £115m for the new stadium, that money is from a mortgage. That mortgage has to have collateral. So if we only own half a stadium, we can only borrow half the money. Bank is never gonna lend us £85m to buy players with.

Offline cakmin

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Re: Ground share - a question
« Reply #27 on: December 4, 2004, 04:39:08 am »
Where did that £85m come from? We can't spend money we don't have.

That question is exactly the one I want to ask.

To answer Hermes' question, definitely: No. No groundshare at all, if we cannot afford it then fine, keep playing at current Anfield. Football ground is about identity first and foremost (as said by Wendi), no doubt about that.

If we share our home, I'm affraid we will lose the feeling of "belonging to the ground". It will not feel the same anymore, I'm convinced that we will regret it in the future.

Offline harrytrow

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Re: Ground share - a question
« Reply #28 on: December 4, 2004, 09:57:53 am »
Simply put, I would rather stay at Anfield than groundshare.

We generate £25m cash a year. The clubs financial position is generally healthy.

I would not sell my soul to compromise this.

(PS - this could go on the appropriate forum  :wave)
I am of this opinion too.
I can't see why Anfield Road can't be closed off and the Anfield Road End Extended with an increase to the main stand to give the increased capacity, when needed, after spending developing a great team.
Only when we have re-established ourselves as the great team we once were should we consider moving from this hallowed place
How come pointed questions recieve blunt answers

Offline mr_mad_master

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Re: Ground share - a question
« Reply #29 on: December 4, 2004, 10:23:24 am »
Id help build the new anfield myself if i need to to stop sharing with them. it would be sharing our soul. the kop would be sat in by wankers, the same place wed go to sing, would be sung on by wankers the week before, the seat you sit down in  jump up and down in after we score and have some of your best memories that same seat would of had a blue nosed WANKER sitting in it just 7 days before. Sorry to be doing the standard but quite frankly thats what it comes down to. Money should never be a priority ahead of that NEVER
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Offline BIGdavalad

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Re: Ground share - a question
« Reply #30 on: December 4, 2004, 11:18:17 am »
ARE YOU WILLING TO SEE THE PLANS FOR THE NEW STADIUM COLLAPSE THROUGH SPIRALLING COSTS RATHER THAN SHARE?

I would rather see see us bankrupt in the Conference than share with them. We are Liverpool for fuck's sake, the most succesful team in the history of the British game. We don't share with anyone and why the fuck should we? They can't afford to share, so there's your economics blown out of the water for a start. They couldn't find £30 million for King's Dock a couple of years back, where are they going to find £50+ million now?

I'd rather shave my balls blindfolded with a rusty cheese grater than share with them.
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Offline Adelphi Red

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Re: Ground share - a question
« Reply #31 on: December 4, 2004, 11:23:03 am »
Even the thought of a groundshare with the blueshite makes me sick  :puke  to the pit of my stomach.

 It must never, ever happen.

Offline Jimmy Conway

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Re: Ground share - a question
« Reply #32 on: December 4, 2004, 11:25:18 am »
What about if we just rebuilt the Main Stand?
I know the logistics arent ideal due to the main stand having conference rooms, offices, changing rooms, gantry etc... But if we could get capacity up to 55,000 (maybe more looking at the pic) and stay at Anfield, and I imagine that would cost no more than £30m, with the lost revenue from 5000 a game (which we wont sell out 19 times a year anyway) will be recouped in the money not spent on the new stadium! I thinks this is the way we will go....

Offline Millsee

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Re: Ground share - a question
« Reply #33 on: December 4, 2004, 11:46:02 am »
What about if we just rebuilt the Main Stand?
I know the logistics arent ideal due to the main stand having conference rooms, offices, changing rooms, gantry etc... But if we could get capacity up to 55,000 (maybe more looking at the pic) and stay at Anfield, and I imagine that would cost no more than £30m, with the lost revenue from 5000 a game (which we wont sell out 19 times a year anyway) will be recouped in the money not spent on the new stadium! I thinks this is the way we will go....

Always love those artists impressions.

Look at all the green space and trees around the stadium  ;D

Offline DannyD

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Re: Ground share - a question
« Reply #34 on: December 4, 2004, 11:53:21 am »
I'm for a groundshare, on the basis of economics only. Although I have doubts that we will need the increased capacity in the future. In my view a £130m for a stadium with NWDA putting up £40m and Everton splitting the rest saves us £85m that can be spent on players to win trophies- "The reason for the club's existence" as David Moores said a few years ago. I can live with a groundshare on that basis. Forget the arguements for and against and consider this, if you fully back the need for a new stadium:

 ARE YOU WILLING TO SEE THE PLANS FOR THE NEW STADIUM COLLAPSE THROUGH SPIRALLING COSTS RATHER THAN SHARE?

 Give your views but remember to answer the question, assuming none of you are politicians of course.  ;D

 



The media keep pushing the argument that ffotball is a business and it makes business sense for a ground share ...... they fail to debate the first rule of business .... make sure your main competetor goes to the wall ....... Everton have claimed a new ground will be their salvation ........ why should we help them out ..... would Tesco help Asda out ...... let them go to the wall .....allowing us to have a monopoly in the Merseyside area ...... it make take a year or two but like Newcastle ...without any local rivals ...evryone would be a Red.
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Offline Liver Bird

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Re: Ground share - a question
« Reply #35 on: December 4, 2004, 11:56:40 am »
I like your thinking .down with the blueshite ;D
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Offline Dick Emery

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Re: Ground share - a question
« Reply #36 on: December 4, 2004, 02:34:37 pm »
My granddad didn't like change. When we were in div 2, he went to every match. When we got promoted to Div 1, he didn't like it for some reason. He preferred it as it was. He couldn't move with the times. He went to fewer games and eventually stopped going. He was a dinosaur who couldn't adapt. Change is part and parcel of life. You gotta adapt to survive.

Should we groundshare with Everton ? Well, we gotta adapt to survive so my considered answer would be - no fucking chance whatsoever. Not as long as I have breath in my body and a hole in me arse. No, never, no way at all. It might make economic sense but I don't care. I'd sooner we played non-league footie.

Offline rob1966

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Re: Ground share - a question
« Reply #37 on: December 4, 2004, 02:54:21 pm »
I'd rather stay at Anfield than share.The logical side of me knows that financially,in the short term, it obviously makes sense,however, my main concern is that the damage caused from over-use of the pitch will prevent the Reds from playing the type of football Rafa wants.It is concievable that they could play on the Sunday, then we use the pitch on a Wed in the Champs league, they have a UEFA game on the Thurs (Dont laugh, it could happen !!) and then we play on the Sat.The pitch would be wrecked after that. If Rafa then feels he can't get anywhere trying to play on a mudbath/ lumpy park surface, he could decide to go somewhere else. Enough teams would want him.We are going to win the Premiership under this man, I'd hate to lose him.

Emotionally, I don't want to share full stop, I want to go and watch the team at our own ground.I don't want to go in a stadium that they use every other week. I hate going in the pit as it is. They wanted fuck all to do with us when they wanted the Kings Dock, but now that the scabby fucks can't afford their own ground, the want to jump on the back of us. Look at Kenwright the other day, "We are not prepared to be a tenant in their stadium,not just their design etc".Cheeky bastard, trying to hijack our stadium and then fucking dictating to us. Fuck off and build your own then  :upyours. Oh forgot, you can't cos your fucking £42 million in debt  :wanker
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Re: Ground share - a question
« Reply #38 on: December 4, 2004, 03:03:35 pm »
theres a lot of people saying they don't want to groundshare, the club themselves don't want to either, but if it happens, ill still be going to support my team, and the fact is most of you will also. what would annoy me is that we had to stay at anfield and missed out on an opportunity again IE grants, for a decent stadium and facilities were we can all get in.
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Offline Giblet

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Re: Ground share - a question
« Reply #39 on: December 4, 2004, 03:09:37 pm »
Forget any groundshare.

If it came to it, while redevoloping Anfield isn't as economically viable as a new build, it is still a viable option and retains ownership and identity. The Main Stand would have to under go a major redevelopment and probably the Anfield Road as well to enable the pitch size, crowd distance from pitch etc to be sorted. Houses would have to go (so NWDA how the frig would that redevelop an area? People are vital) to aid circulation.

But it could be done. Think this way. Liverpool City Centre is being rebuilt, a number of schemes are proposed or underway to upgrade the commercial stock of the city, developers understandably want to wait until they can maximise leases etc. Couldn't Liverpool FC move ticketing, back office, some facilities and function management for a couple of years to Old street/Pall Mall? That would allow builders to build commercial stock, Liverpool FC gap fund it on a reduced rates until the market gives them their 25 quid a square foot or whatever they're after.

While this is happening The Main Stand could be rebuilt without comprimise.

In fact come to think of it surely Liverpool FC, regardless of anything else, should have a ticket office and maybe even a commercial presence in the city as well as a tacky shop selling shite.