Topic: Time to leave the Past Behind by Chris Bascombe

[treble2001]

After the ultimate football experience on Tuesday night, it's time for a confession.

Prior to Liverpool's destruction of Roma there was something about the club which was becoming very irritating. It can be summed up in two words. 'The Past'.

For the last 20 years a generation of Reds fans have had to put up with the over-romantic brigade, lecturing the young un's on 'how it used to be in Shanks' day' and explaining why Gerard Houllier's players weren't fit to lace the boots of the likes of St John and Hunt.

We've heard all the stories from the old pros and former players who've undermined the current regime with every tale they couldn't wait to tell about how much better they were. Some did it deliberately. Others have been nothing but supportive to Houllier from the moment he arrived, but with every celebrity half-time draw over the last decade still offered a stark contrast between their class and the abilities of some of those since.

There are so many chapters in the Liverpool history book, there was no escape from the legends. Tales of Inter Milan in '65 and St Etienne in '77 have entered mythology to the point where they've almost become cliched and patronising. Dare one say it, boring?

As soon as someone starts telling me the story of Ron Yeats' wearing the all red kit for the first time or David Fairclough coming off the bench, it's time to nod off. Heard it before, again, again and again.

Sure, these were occasions to cherish and always will be, but clubs who talk so much about the past and celebrate old successes stand still. They hinder those working in the present.

When a phrase 'remember the glory days' becomes attached to a club, they're in decline. Before Houllier arrived the 'glory days' could only be witnessed on video.

The old stories were becoming very sad. Why? Not because of lack of respect. Not because these achievements don't matter. Far from it.

The reason for despising these stories is far more simple. It's envy. Many Liverpool supporters have experienced some of the greatest European nights in the history of English football because they were born 20 years before us 'young 'uns'. Jammy sods, the lot 'em. Why should they be allowed all the fun? What about those who were born after the legends retired? What about Liverpool supporters who were sucking a rusk when supersub raced through against the French?

What about those who thought the 1984 European Cup win was merely the fourth of ten victories and looked forward to an adolescence touring the continent?

Where were their European glory nights? Why should it be older Reds who've had a monopoly on the sense of ecstacy following the club can bring?

The twentysomethings have been demanding their own sense of history and on Tuesday they finally experienced it. It truly was an 'I was there' moment when Houllier reappeared and Roma retreated amid a cacophony of Kop sound.

Even now, of course, there is a regrettable but unavoidable tendency to try and compare Tuesday with the past.

Phil Thompson did it before the match, we journalists (myself included) have done it in our match reports and no doubt fans will use their own memory and insert Roma in the appropriate chapter of their minds.

But we shouldn't compare. It stands alone.

This is why Roma 2002 becomes so important. This was the kind of evening those fans who've only experienced those other occasions through books or word of mouth have been waiting for.

The legends of the past can now slip quietly back into their history books and join the rest of us in acclaiming the legends of the present.

Yes, the younger mind is right to say Sami Hyypia, Stephane Henchoz, Steven Gerrard and Michael Owen compare favourably with Yeats, Hansen, Souness and Rush. They are the new legends. Players who've provided memories which mean more to a 27-year-old Kopite than St Etienne and the rest. Why? Because we were there in 2002 and babies in 1977.

Older reds ma y dismiss this based on the luxury of having witnessed many great sides, but please don't impose your sense of reality and perspective on the rest of us.

Surely Hyypia and Gerrard and the rest could wear the red jersey in any era? They would already have done enough to earn statues outside the Main Stand at lesser clubs. In years to come, a statue of Houllier will be erected alongside Shankly.

Many will say a European Cup (or three) and league title (or six) must be won before such a bold acclamation can be made.

If anyone says this to you, ask them their age. Bet you they're over 30.

[Anthony]

"He who ignores History is doomed to repeat it!"

No! Hold on - you know what I mean...  

One of the main features of Liverpool's success in the 60's, 70's and 80's was the line of continuity - Shanks led to Paisley, Paisley led to Fagan, Fagan led to Dalglish. (I think, incidentally, that this is one of the most telling points of the current season with the Mancs unable to unveil a ready-made successor to their Manager despite knowing for at least 18 months that he was due to retire!)

At this point the wheels came off the conveyor belt - some would say before Dalglish left with an aging squad, some would say after his premature departure with 2 disasters in 4 years weighing on the club's collective conscience. We brought back a prodigal son who had found success outside the club but who then determined that the answer lay in demolish and rebuild. Sadly that did not work and after another hasty (yet drawn out) departure the club once again turned to an internal candidate for a period of consolidation.

In the meanwhile, a teacher-turned-football-coach was rising to prominence in France. He had spent time in Liverpool in the 60's and carried with him particular memories of watching Liverpool v Dundalk from the Kop. He became friendly with the powers-that-be at Anfield and, having used what he had learned to take France to the top of the footballing world in 2000, was persuaded to swap his application for the vacant Managerial Position at Sheffield Wednesday for a specially created joint-managerial role at the club which had first awakened his love of football.

And the rest is History!!

Many questioned his credentials. Many regarded him as an outsider. Some (who should have known better!) referred to him as "That Frenchman"! But a few saw the passion burning in his eyes for his club - a passion that came from remembering, and being a part of, the history of a great club led by a man from Glenbuck!

PS - a statue alongside Shanks? Maybe - but there's a space to be filled first by a man from Hetton-le-Hole - who indeed won 3 European Cups and 6 League Championships in 9 seasons - or even the first English Manager to win a Treble. But then again, I am 33!  

[Barrettski]

Nicely put Tinky Winky.

I'm 29 and I disagree with Chris Bascombe on this occasion. One banner in Placa Reial said it all. "Those that remember the past are destined to repeat it"... or something like that - hey I was pickled at the time.

[archie]

sorry but i have to agree with this article.
i suppose it's all relative to when you were born
i'm 21 and only have a smattering of the end of the "glory days" to remember and alot of the unglorious endured,as we all have had,during the 90's.
we have no right to win things just because we used to,and although i am extremely proud of our history from day 1,i personally would like to have my own memories to be able to tell the younger generations,converting them to the ways of the pool and away from the dreaded conglomerate that is utd.
that is probably why last year and this year have been truely truely special and have once agaain made people sit up and take notice.
but our "bread and butter" as we all know is the league and a 12 year absence has been heartbreaking perhaps even more so due to the past glories.
it is because of these past glories i feel that our set of players as they strive to the finishing line this year have the weight of the world on their shoulders.
not only are they trying to win the league for themselves/club/fans now there is that added pressure of the past. when we do can we posssibly go from strength to strength once that weight of the past has gone.
as we get closer and media goes crazy towards the end of the season you can be sure that any interview of one of our players will be accompanied by footage of past captains lifting the trophy.
i just long for the  season when we go for 2 in a row the media will show the players of the now celebrating the seasons before triumph and whether we can do it again.
is that not a healthier kind of pressure?
maybe/maybe not.
i am sooo proud of our history and please do not think i am bringing it down in any way,as a younger fan i also recognise the need to break free and celebrate the liverpool of the now and not have to revert to waxing lyrically about days that i don't truely remember when some arse supporter of an opposing side goes on about how great some team is and how they are better than all the rest now and then.
i hope i made some valid points (i think i did)
my two cents
the arch

[saph]

horrid feeling chris bascombe is the fella on my train back to manc: only scanned the article and do not want to cause WWIII but what a pile of shite!

[TheKid.]

Im sorry but im only 20 and though many seem to disagree with Chris Bascombe, i dont.
Its these days that are still more or less present occurences but given some short time, they will be what we are talking about to younger Reds.
Barca 2001, Alaves 2001 and Roma 2002, will be thought of as fondly as St Etienne and Rome 84 - theyre just for a new generation and theres nothing wrong with that - time doesnt stand still!

[Anthony]

Kid,

I don't disagree with the current side receiving their plaudits and going on to make their own History (and they most definitely can if you read the "New record??" thread - http://www.redandwhitekop.co.uk/cgi-bin/YaBB/YaBB.pl?board=LiverpoolFC;action=display;num=1017186214 ) but I don't think we ought to discard the past either. If we do that what are we left with? Acclaiming the Mancs on the basis of their achievements over the last decade? Leave that to Sky!

Widening the topic slightly I'd be interested in hearing from anybody who recalls the genesis of the Shankly era - were there many comparisons with the Post-War side that won the League and was there any thought of the past weighing on the Team?? I'm sure the Master would have had something to say on the matter...

[JayWay]

The article is bollocks.

The points that the author brings up just don't exist. I have barely ever heard any older fan bash the actuall players. I've never heard the "they don't play like they used to" argument. The will of lads like Stevie, Hyypia, Henchoz, etc has never been doubted, by anyone.

Most of the complaining is about the way the game in general has gone with corporate influence, and the nu-fan etc. All of which despite being only 19, I agree with.

[Old-Scallywag]

Then I guess we should all agree with Sky, football really did begin in 1992!
I'm 34 and I remember a fair few of the big games of the seventies and eighties. I also remember naively thinking that we would be successful for ever.
Well we weren't and along with everyone else I spent the nineties eating humble pie whilst our bitterest enemy took on our mantle.
Thats why what the team are doing now is as special to us 'old codgers' as you 'young pups'. Its new and its fresh and I feel like I'm actually starting to shake off the torpor of the nineties. Its a new beginning after all the false dawns of the past.
I dont feel that the past should be viewed with any superiority to the present. In the past LFC won everything and in the present LFC are winning everything. Likewise the past should not be viewed as something which holds us back. Its the foundation on which the name of our club built. We are one of the great teams of Europe would we still be if we eradicated the past?
The players are not affected by comparisons to the past. This team is very focussed and is intent on forging its own path in history. Most of them were kids in the seventies/eighties so it has the same impact on them as it has on you 'whippersnappers' .
The past is also motivational. Players these day's are so rich that they must have something to motivate them. If Phil Thompson shows them what he has achieved in the past do you not think it would spur them on?
So do I agree with Chris? I guess not. Our history is what defines us as the Greatest Club, ever, in the history of the world!  

[treble2001]

"The reason for despising these stories is far more simple. It's envy"

I'm 17 and do envey people who went to Etienne's, Inter's and all that.  I think what Bascombe was trying to say was that

I am proud of what we achieved, but want to experience these in my era- only now are we experiencing success.

I think the title 'Time To Leave The Past' behind is misleading as we cannot forget the past.  

[RedLoner]

I understand people who feel they've had enough of some supporters implying that youngsters are less worthy of following the team, just because they weren't born in the golden days; but to go on and say it's time to leave the past is unacceptable; maybe the title is mis-leading, and the guy is just getting frustrated of being told he's a newbie supporter or something of that sort.

In any case, I don't see any reason to classify supporters by age or location or any other criteria other than sticking with your team for better or for worse. We already have an OOT vs local debate; further division is not in our interest.

[redtel]

I think the worst thing any club or fans  can do is to forget the past. Imagine if, in a few years time people were saying that what Ged and current players are doing  should be put aside or not talked about. It takes a hell of a lot of work and dedication to achieve things in life.

I can remember the dawn of the Shanks era ,and there was no  talk that they were better or worse than '47 team . However after 8 years in the wilderness people were just happy to see  top flght football.

I can remember that they were criticised as being boring and defensive! Shanks played No.10 alongside centre half and we ground out many 1-0 's away from home. It set the platform for success ,especially in Europe, and gradually we became more attacking over the years. Hence the call  in recent times to Ged , are you Shankly in disguise!  

[Jonathan Hall ☆☆☆☆☆☆]

Chris Bascombe tries to speak as a true fan and for people who want to slag him off.

Just remember you could be a blue and have to read Phil Mcnulty.

[Old-Scallywag]

I agree Jon
Bascombe is a decent writer, I was right behind him on his stance with the boo boys and I enjoy the bulk of his stuff. However the slant of this story was always going to prompt a lively discussion. I personally view it as an attack on some of my treasured memories (which I never bore younger fans with ). As if I should feel guilty for the fortune of being born at the right time and thus getting the opportunity to have gone to some great matches.
As the story was on here I used this as an avenue of reply.
Chris would probably be happy that his stories are prompting a discussion, as no writer likes to be ignored

By the way I read McNulty and Rogers as well (they don't always write about Everton)
but Prentice is more than I can bear  :

[treble2001]

Rogers is a c*nt

[Old-Scallywag]

Treble2001
Agreed but unless I read his stuff I can't come to that conclusion  

[goldenbrown]

Nice one Scally I generally enjoy and respect Chris Bascombe too, but as a slightly more ancient follower (for over 32 years) I have a different take on things.

The past and the present are not separated by some invisible line that appears when you are 26.  Ian St John is part of Liverpool.  John Barnes will (and should) always be a legend.  Paisley's quiet and shrewd spirit echoes around Anfield.  Liverpool are the most successful English team because of them, and all the others whose names we know even if we never saw them play or manage.  If you accept the past, and celebrate it, and not be threatened by it, then you can truly enjoy and appreciate the achievements of the present.  GH is part of Liverpool's past - he was standing on the terraces when many of us were still in short trousers.  And his vision is consistent with everything that was great about the old Liverpool.  If you don't believe that, just ask Roma!

And that is why the line from the glory days of yesteryear to the triumph of last Tuesday is an unbroken one in my mind.  10 years of under-achievement did not tarnish what had gone before (it just left us feeling a little worn and frustrated), and our recent resurgence should not be seen as competing with those great triumphs of old.  It is all one - one Liverpool, one team, one Anfield.

We are Liverpool.  We are legend.

[treble2001]

Anyone remember Roger's article congratulating PT on MOTM, and then saying Smith should've got it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Old-Scallywag]

Nice one Goldenbrown (You're weren't into the Stranglers were you?)That's a good angle to look at it from.
Treble2001
The only newspaper that I buy is the Echo, because the national press are so far up United(in the North) or the London Teams (in the South) that they can tell you how many fillings they've got  . Also the sport's news is more focussed onto what I am interested in.
So when you are as hungry to read things about the Reds as I am, it doesn't matter if the articles are good or bad. Now I can happily read the stories in the Echo by the Red writers with their positive slant but I am equally attached to the Blue writers. They give you the comment from a non LFC perspective. However compared to the national press they are generally friendly. Whilst they usually talk a load of s@#te, if LFC are attacked either nationally or an non match related injustice takes place against us they tend to back us up.
So I suppose that kind of makes it a balanced view.
My tip would be to scan the supposed neutral stuff of McNulty and Rogers first to see if they have said anything about the Reds. You never know you might want to write to them, or e-mail them and call them a cnut(I can spell, kids might be reading) if they've said something you don't like. Then move on to the good stuff.
Above all. No matter what the journos might think the pen is not mightier than a Steven Gerrard tackle or a Micheal Owen goal.
Cheers