Topic: The 2021 Formula 1 “Gives you whinge…”

[losCHUNK]

I know yeah but you mention he has a right to challenge for it because he took that line in quali and that he doesn't appear to have much understeer. To me the wheel rotation says something else and the fact his car was at its heaviest and not up to temperature (which he's fully aware of) means if he has a right to challenge for it and gets it wrong he knows it's on him. He got it wrong and got away with it with a penalty, which considering he still won in the manner he did doesn't seem like much of one.

I didn't, I said Lewis had enough of his car up the inside to challenge for it.  The quali line was purely a response.  I think he might've been a little wide due to fuel load, i think between those 2 pics he could be a foot out, but as far as wheel rotation is concerned, both drivers had similiar lock and Hamiltons didn't start drifting until after the contact and the car / driver became unsettled? this is what I'm seeing anyway.  When someone has a right to challenge for a corner n all, I don't think that gives someone the right to take their line off them, Max turns in twice, 2nd being more aggressive.

[losCHUNK]

The picture I posted was a response to Palmer's video, where he claimed that the line that Lewis took into the corner was the same line that he used all weekend and was therefore his natural line.It clearly wasn't. As for you not seeing understeer, it's clear as day and has been commented on by drivers both past and present. Cars don't move like that with 90 degree lock when the fronts are biting.

It's just you posted a pic from quali, disproving Palmer? (as Lewis is on the kerb), when Hamilton appeared to be going for the same line during the overtake?

[naYoRHa2b]

I didn't, I said Lewis had enough of his car up the inside to challenge for it.  The quali line was purely a response.  I think he might've been a little wide due to fuel load, i think between those 2 pics he could be a foot out, but as far as wheel rotation is concerned, both drivers had similiar lock and Hamiltons didn't start drifting until after the contact and the car / driver became unsettled? this is what I'm seeing anyway.  When someone has a right to challenge for a corner n all, I don't think that gives someone the right to take their line off them, Max turns in twice, 2nd being more aggressive.

Fair enough mate

[Darren G]

It's just you posted a pic from quali, disproving Palmer? (as Lewis is on the kerb), when Hamilton appeared to be going for the same line during the overtake?

Palmer's comment was that Lewis was using the same line as in the race all weekend as he wasn't using the inside and up against the curb in quali either. He's not making the argument that Lewis was going to get to the curb prior to the incident. He's saying that using the curb wasn't Lewis' normal line for that corner anyway, which it clearly was.

[losCHUNK]

Palmer's comment was that Lewis was using the same line as in the race all weekend as he wasn't using the inside and up against the curb in quali either. He's not making the argument that Lewis was going to get to the curb prior to the incident. He's saying that using the curb wasn't Lewis' normal line for that corner anyway, which it clearly was.

Gotcha, the arguements I've been seeing is that Hamilton should've used the curb, which might have been what he was getting at?

[TepidT2O]

Bild are saying Russell will replace Bottas in 2022


https://www.bild.de/sport/motorsport/motorsport/formel-1-supertalent-soll-2022-neuer-kollege-von-lewis-hamilton-werden-77182100.bild.html

[Darren G]

Gotcha, the arguements I've been seeing is that Hamilton should've used the curb, which might have been what he was getting at?

It was relative to the degree that Lewis missed the apex.  Palmer says that 'some people think that the apex is right up on the curb, but that's not where Hamilton has been driving all weekend'.  Now, that's clearly bollocks as you can see from the shot that I posted. Palmer is essentially trying to reinvent the apex for Copse to support an argument.  He's not trying to say that Lewis' trajectory would have led to him being on inside line (the same line as in quali) that I posted, but that somehow the wider line is the apex as evidenced by Lewis supposedly taking a wide line into the corner throughout the weekend, which is clearly bollocks. 

Regarding your response to naYoRHa2b regarding the understeer: by suggesting that both drivers had similar lock, you're somewhat contradicting your own point as you can see a marked difference in turn-in/car response at said lock between the two. You can also see lateral slide from Lewis' car prior to the contact.  If you cannot see underrsteer in the clips, then fair enough.  Your opinion is your opinion and you're entitled to it.  Even the likes of Hill though though, who have it as a racing incident have acknowledged that Lewis had what was significant understeer into that corner. 

Regarding this line: "When someone has a right to challenge for a corner n all, I don't think that gives someone the right to take their line off them, Max turns in twice, 2nd being more aggressive."

 I see it as Lewis taking Max line off him, not the other way around.  The "Max turns in twice" is a comment that I've seen elsewhere as evidence of Max being aware of where Lewis was and even being ridiculously compared to Schumacher's double turn of the wheel on Villeneuve at Jerez. It's not a double turn in from Max though, but a rear end correction.  There's plenty of onboard of Max doing the same thing into/during corners without anyone else even being there.  There's a telemetry trace of Schumacher on youtube through Bridge, a similarly fast corner and you can see by the steering trace that he did the same.

My initial take was 'racing incident', but having looked more at the incident I am inclined to agree with the stewards as it being predominantly Lewis fault.  Whether the 10 second penalty was sufficient is an argument that could be debated endlessly and is too subjective, with too many intangibles to be worthwhile.

 The only other thing that I'll say is that the argument I've seen (more elsewhere than here to be fair) that this incident is somehow a result of Max being generally too aggressive is bullshit. Max is one of three drivers currently on the grid with zero penalty points, whereas Lewis has been involved in variations of this incident for three seasons running now.  I can't help but feel that if the roles were reversed that there would be accusations of 'pattern behaviour' and the like from many lewis' fans.

[losCHUNK]

It was relative to the degree that Lewis missed the apex.  Palmer says that 'some people think that the apex is right up on the curb, but that's not where Hamilton has been driving all weekend'.  Now, that's clearly bollocks as you can see from the shot that I posted. Palmer is essentially trying to reinvent the apex for Copse to support an argument.  He's not trying to say that Lewis' trajectory would have led to him being on inside line (the same line as in quali) that I posted, but that somehow the wider line is the apex as evidenced by Lewis supposedly taking a wide line into the corner throughout the weekend, which is clearly bollocks. 

Regarding your response to naYoRHa2b regarding the understeer: by suggesting that both drivers had similar lock, you're somewhat contradicting your own point as you can see a marked difference in turn-in/car response at said lock between the two. You can also see lateral slide from Lewis' car prior to the contact.  If you cannot see underrsteer in the clips, then fair enough.  Your opinion is your opinion and you're entitled to it.  Even the likes of Hill though though, who have it as a racing incident have acknowledged that Lewis had what was significant understeer into that corner. 

Regarding this line: "When someone has a right to challenge for a corner n all, I don't think that gives someone the right to take their line off them, Max turns in twice, 2nd being more aggressive."

 I see it as Lewis taking Max line off him, not the other way around.  The "Max turns in twice" is a comment that I've seen elsewhere as evidence of Max being aware of where Lewis was and even being ridiculously compared to Schumacher's double turn of the wheel on Villeneuve at Jerez. It's not a double turn in from Max though, but a rear end correction.  There's plenty of onboard of Max doing the same thing into/during corners without anyone else even being there.  There's a telemetry trace of Schumacher on youtube through Bridge, a similarly fast corner and you can see by the steering trace that he did the same.

My initial take was 'racing incident', but having looked more at the incident I am inclined to agree with the stewards as it being predominantly Lewis fault.  Whether the 10 second penalty was sufficient is an argument that could be debated endlessly and is too subjective, with too many intangibles to be worthwhile.

 The only other thing that I'll say is that the argument I've seen (more elsewhere than here to be fair) that this incident is somehow a result of Max being generally too aggressive is bullshit. Max is one of three drivers currently on the grid with zero penalty points, whereas Lewis has been involved in variations of this incident for three seasons running now.  I can't help but feel that if the roles were reversed that there would be accusations of 'pattern behaviour' and the like from many lewis' fans.

in response to the understeer, I said '...I don't see much in way of understeer' and in my 2nd reply I said something along the lines of 'he was maybe a foot off for being heavier', the front end wasn't biting fully but I think Lewis was slowing, had control and was on track for his usual line, the car didn't become unsettled until contact but the crux of the comment was that I don't think understeer played a role in the impact, which I kind of demonstrated in my quali lap VS impact pics.  Also, Max seems to turn in sooner and harder than Hamilton - before the correction, which put him in conflict with Hamiltons line, the correction afterwards just made sure that happened, he actually had slightly more lock than Lewis n all, but, it was similiar enough.  I'm not saying Max did it on purpose, simply because I don't think he's that stupid, I just think Max was racing hard and wanted that line, unfortunately there was a car in the way.

Like I said though, it is contentious.  I'm not gonna rattle on about Max VS Lewis infringements either, both have a history for it, some fair, some not so much.

[voodoo ray]

wherever you sit on the arguments have have sprung up, it's a disappointment considering everything that there's not a race this weekend.

[jillcwhomever]

Bild are saying Russell will replace Bottas in 2022


https://www.bild.de/sport/motorsport/motorsport/formel-1-supertalent-soll-2022-neuer-kollege-von-lewis-hamilton-werden-77182100.bild.html

A bit of a shame that, would like to see Russell go somewhere where he can actually challenge.

[Welshred]

A bit of a shame that, would like to see Russell go somewhere where he can actually challenge.

If he's competitive enough and he's got enough points to challenge for the title he'll be allowed to. Mercedes let Rosberg and Hamilton race and the only reason they don't is because Bottas is nowhere near good enough.

[jillcwhomever]

If he's competitive enough and he's got enough points to challenge for the title he'll be allowed to. Mercedes let Rosberg and Hamilton race and the only reason they don't is because Bottas is nowhere near good enough.

I wish I could believe that.

[TepidT2O]

A bit of a shame that, would like to see Russell go somewhere where he can actually challenge.

If the Mercedes is good next year (which lets be honest this is a huge unknown for every team) then he will have the chance to win races.

Even if only at the start of the season, but he will have the chance.

Which is way way behind what he’s got now.

[voodoo ray]

I wish I could believe that.

You seem like a proper anti-hamilton conspiracy theorist.

There's historical precedent for merc allowing their drivers to race each other. Repeatedly. Bottas just doesn't seem to have been good enough to take advantage of that.

[TepidT2O]

You seem like a proper anti-hamilton conspiracy theorist.

There's historical precedent for merc allowing their drivers to race each other. Repeatedly. Bottas just doesn't seem to have been good enough to take advantage of that.

Driving with a top driver wears their team mates down over time….

It’s the relentlessness of having been excellent and now never being as good as them…. Psychological as much as anything I reckon.

[voodoo ray]

Driving with a top driver wears their team mates down over time….

It’s the relentlessness of having been excellent and now never being as good as them…. Psychological as much as anything I reckon.

there's probably some truth in that.

[Funky_Gibbons]

Driving with a top driver wears their team mates down over time….

It’s the relentlessness of having been excellent and now never being as good as them…. Psychological as much as anything I reckon.

And at Williams Russel has consistently out performed his team mates so it’ll be interesting to see how he reacts when he’s not doing that week in week out. He seems a level headed guy though so hopefully he’ll cope.

[El Lobo]

You seem like a proper anti-hamilton conspiracy theorist.

There's historical precedent for merc allowing their drivers to race each other. Repeatedly. Bottas just doesn't seem to have been good enough to take advantage of that.

Definitely!

Lewis will be 37 at the start of next season, it’d make so little sense to sign one of the best young drivers on the grid and then deliberately drop him winning races to benefit someone winding his career down. And like you say there’s plenty of precedent to show you start off equal there.

[jillcwhomever]

You seem like a proper anti-hamilton conspiracy theorist.

There's historical precedent for merc allowing their drivers to race each other. Repeatedly. Bottas just doesn't seem to have been good enough to take advantage of that.

I would say you are the conspiracy theorist, I never even mentioned Hamilton. I was talking more about Mercedes than Hamilton himself. Some of you Lewis fans are so sensitive.   

[voodoo ray]

I would say you are the conspiracy theorist, I never even mentioned Hamilton. I was talking more about Mercedes than Hamilton himself. Some of you Lewis fans are so sensitive.   

I wasn't basing what I typed on one post.




anyway, again, pity there's no race this week.

[jillcwhomever]

I wasn't basing what I typed on one post.




anyway, again, pity there's no race this week.

Whatever.

[b_joseph]

A bit of a shame that, would like to see Russell go somewhere where he can actually challenge.

Beat your teammate on Saturday and be faster than him on Sunday...Unfortunately, your teammate is one of the all time, top 3 greats

But when there are multiple cars involved in a Championship, you put your eggs in the basket of the driver most likely to win. Which is why the crying about Bottas being given team orders this season has been laughable.
Some were even upset last week at Silverstone about it...which is nuts.


Eventually, Lewis' skills will fully diminish. George will get a crack at seeing just by how much they have.

[scatman]

I would say you are the conspiracy theorist, I never even mentioned Hamilton. I was talking more about Mercedes than Hamilton himself. Some of you Lewis fans are so sensitive.   

he's right, you're so anti Hamilton that you ignored actual facts. You didn't have to mention Hamilton, your post is there to see, you ignored the fact that s Mercedes driver not called Hamilton was World Champion whilst Hamilton was there. Yet in your little world apparently Mercedes don't let their drivers compete.

[jillcwhomever]

he's right, you're so anti Hamilton that you ignored actual facts. You didn't have to mention Hamilton, your post is there to see, you ignored the fact that s Mercedes driver not called Hamilton was World Champion whilst Hamilton was there. Yet in your little world apparently Mercedes don't let their drivers compete.

Jeez so you can see things that I haven't actually written you are some clairvoyant, congratulations.

[scatman]

Jeez so you can see things that I haven't actually written you are some clairvoyant, congratulations.

Whatever.

[TheShanklyGates]

Whatever.

[Darren G]

in response to the understeer, I said '...I don't see much in way of understeer' and in my 2nd reply I said something along the lines of 'he was maybe a foot off for being heavier', the front end wasn't biting fully but I think Lewis was slowing, had control and was on track for his usual line, the car didn't become unsettled until contact but the crux of the comment was that I don't think understeer played a role in the impact, which I kind of demonstrated in my quali lap VS impact pics.  Also, Max seems to turn in sooner and harder than Hamilton - before the correction, which put him in conflict with Hamiltons line, the correction afterwards just made sure that happened, he actually had slightly more lock than Lewis n all, but, it was similiar enough.  I'm not saying Max did it on purpose, simply because I don't think he's that stupid, I just think Max was racing hard and wanted that line, unfortunately there was a car in the way.

Like I said though, it is contentious.  I'm not gonna rattle on about Max VS Lewis infringements either, both have a history for it, some fair, some not so much.

Honesty, I disagree with pretty much all of that and genuinely don't see how you have come to those conclusions, many of which are at odds with both the stewards - who have access to the actual telemetry - and drivers views on the incident.  Regardless, I feel that we have probably reached an impasse where the argument becomes circular, so will respectfully agree to disagree and leave it there.

[Darren G]

If he's competitive enough and he's got enough points to challenge for the title he'll be allowed to. Mercedes let Rosberg and Hamilton race and the only reason they don't is because Bottas is nowhere near good enough.

Yep. Pretty much spot on in my opinion.

[Funky_Gibbons]

Thought this was a good article (even if the incident has been talked about to death);

https://the-race.com/formula-1/mark-hughes-pride-in-verstappen-weakens-horners-hamilton-anger/

[jackh]

Just heard on the radio the news about Lewis Hamilton launching & backing the Mission 44 charity, designed "to empower youngsters from under-represented groups in the UK" by (amongst other things) "supporting organisations and programmes that narrow the gap in employment and education systems".

https://www.planetf1.com/news/lewis-hamilton-mission-44/

“Supporting the ambitions of under-represented young people has always been important to me and Mission 44 represents my commitment to create real change within this community,” said Hamilton.

“In my early life, I experienced first-hand how coming from an under-represented background can affect your future but, luckily for me, I was able to overcome those odds through opportunity and support. I want to ensure other young people from similar backgrounds are able to do the same.

“I am so grateful that Mercedes are joining me on our initiative Ignite, with the goal to improve representation within the motorsport industry. The findings of The Hamilton Commission and its recommendations have provided us with a fantastic basis to begin our work.

“Change within the industry is long overdue, but we are now firmly on the journey towards transforming it for the better.”

[TepidT2O]

A wee bit better than mission winnow

[Funky_Gibbons]

Red Bull lodge a petition for a right of review of the penalty given to Lewis Hamilton at the British Grand Prix. To be permitted, it requires a “significant and relevant new element which was unavailable to the parties seeking the review at the time of the decision concerned"

Classy from Whorener.

[El Lobo]

Just pure, embarrassing desperation now

[Welshred]

Absolutely pathetic from Red Bull, hope they fail miserably.

[paulrazor]

Red Bull lodge a petition for a right of review of the penalty given to Lewis Hamilton at the British Grand Prix. To be permitted, it requires a “significant and relevant new element which was unavailable to the parties seeking the review at the time of the decision concerned"

Classy from Whorener.

jesus, give up ffs

Cant be trialled for same crime twice so to speak

I agree Hamilton was more at fault but would they be so demanding of another penalty if he hadnt won

give it up guys

[TepidT2O]

Seems to toally wrong to me. They’ve got the car and the driver to win it on the track.
Judgement was passed and a punishment given.  Move on.  There’s a real chance that this might become a bitter argument that might affect the sporting nature of the contest.  There’s no need for that at all.  Act like sportsmen, act like adults and move on.

[voodoo ray]

F1 has a history of pathetic actions taken by teams but this is really getting up there now.

[TepidT2O]

F1 has a history of pathetic actions taken by teams but this is really getting up there now.

The Senna punishments for one… they were absurd….

[b_joseph]

Pathetic but not unexpected, when considering the people in question

[TepidT2O]

And the PR is bad for red bull.  They announce this a few minutes before Mercedes and Hamilton announce  a £20m charity