Topic: British and Argentina relations strained

[scatman]

think the Argies should fuck off to be honest, don't see them moaning about their little Chilean dispute. Was Argentina even a nation when the Falklands went under British rule?

Why the fuck does Chavez and co give a fuck, i don't see them fucking telling the French to fuck off from South America, they have a large 'country' in that continent (French Guiana).

[ttnbd]

the americans are refusing to back us apparently, if that is the case then they can fuck off from their new foundland and ascension island bases (especially ascension as we'd need it to get down to the falklands).

If the ministry of defence have any sense what so ever they'll have sent a couple of subs to the area already to patrol and ensure nothing gets through.

[ollick]

This is the bit that has me confused.

You need to read it in context of what you've posted.  I'm not demanding a share of their fishing revenues why should I want to take a share of their oil revenues, I just don't care, maybe they will all become millionaires maybe they wont. 

Do you honestly believe that turning a population of 3,500 into multimillionaires overnight is a more favourable outcome than raising the standard of living for hundreds of millions of genuinely poor people?

It won't "help the economy". It will turn the Falklands into Bizarro World.

Who are these 100's of millions of people and what claim do they have to the revenue other than being poor?

I'm poorer than those lottery winners, can I claim a share?

[Pheeny]

anyone who thinks a all Falklanders will be instantly millionaires is living in a dream world.The money earned would go into the FIG coffers. 

[scatman]

Couldnt the same thing be said of the Argies though, they are only in it for oil, what else do the falklanders actually have in common with the Argies? unless they are also from Spain and Italy....

[Sasquatch]

If the ministry of defence have any sense what so ever they'll have sent a couple of subs to the area already to patrol and ensure nothing gets through.

Think one is on the way as we speak.

[BIGdavalad]

Latin American leaders back Argentina over Falklands oil drilling

No-one that matters in the slightest then?

the americans are refusing to back us apparently

If that's true, them maybe they could find a couple of extra Brigades to fill the sudden unexpected gap in Helmand Task Force?

Not that I believe for a second that Brown's got the bottle to do that.

[Grushko]

the americans are refusing to back us apparently,

The Yanks didn't back us in '82 either.

Didn't stop unofficial help from Ronnie to Maggie though.

[ttnbd]

The Yanks didn't back us in '82 either.

Didn't stop unofficial help from Ronnie to Maggie though.

They did what they did in late 1940 and 1941, wanted to appear neutral but did help us.  If I remember correctly we had to get permission from them to use Ascension Island on the way down to restock etc despite it being a british overseas territory, but we signed over a 99 year lease to the americans as part of lend/lease.

[BIGdavalad]

They did what they did in late 1940 and 1941, wanted to appear neutral but did help us.

They basically pushed us to the edge of bankruptcy in 1940/41 and then took us for anything they could get in the way of land too.

The biggest result the Yanks got in World War 2 was destroying the British Empire.

[Yorkykopite]

The biggest result the Yanks got in World War 2 was destroying the British Empire.

About bloody time too.

Also some people think that the biggest result they got was the same one we got  - the defeat of Fascism. They lost rather a lot of men in getting it as well.

[The Manhattan Project]

Why the fuck does Chavez and co give a fuck, i don't see them fucking telling the French to fuck off from South America, they have a large 'country' in that continent (French Guiana).

Chavez is a fucking lunatic. He actually used the term "Mrs Queen".

The president of Brazil also piped in, and apparently doesn't know the difference between "the UK" and "England"


Any old nutter can lead a South American nation. The British government should take no risks this time and get some muscle down their just in case this woman who leads Argentina tries to distract the population again by drumming up jingoism towards the Falklands (and yes I know Thatcher exploited that too, but she had the right to in that case since the Falklanders clearly did not and do not wish to become part of Argentina, and Argentina's claims to the Falklands themselves are highly dubious).

[BIGdavalad]

About bloody time too.

Oh certainly. Africa's a far better place since we started letting them run things for themselves.

[Grushko]

They did what they did in late 1940 and 1941, wanted to appear neutral but did help us.  If I remember correctly we had to get permission from them to use Ascension Island on the way down to restock etc despite it being a british overseas territory, but we signed over a 99 year lease to the americans as part of lend/lease.

I'm pretty sure after the Sheffield was hit by a French supplied Exocet missile they (America) supplied us with some sort of anti-missile defence missile? All on the QT of course though as they wanted to appear "Neutral"

[The Gulleysucker]

The US helped and quite probably decisively.

They gave us 100 of the then latest model Sidewinder missile AIM-9L which even the USAAF hadn't yet got fully into service at the time.
These could be fired from any angle and could home in on the heat friction on a wings leading edge, not just a tailpipe, which became very important when dealing with the Mirages in the very small time slots of engagement which didn't give much opportunity for niceties like maneuvering behind the target for a kill.
17 known kills and 2 assisted kills for the Sea Harriers. These AIM-9L's were even put on the Nimrods.

They also gave us Shrike for Anti Radar strikes, that Vulcan that had to put down in Rio de Janeiro after the refuelling probe broke even had two under the wings which was slightly embarrassing. The Vulcan strikes were also meant to loose these off if they got lit up by the Argentine mobile radar sets to knock them off before the eventual landings.

Stingers were also supplied to the special forces and used successfully.

I think the US even offered us a loan of recently de-commisioned fixed wing carrier but we had to refuse as our fixed wing RN experience had withered badly and the Phantoms & Buccaneers had been de-navalised, arrestor gear off etc. If I'm not mistaken, and I had an impeccable source, there was also a big gas laser for blinding hurriedly fitted on Invincible somewhere down south but that's all a bit of a mystery that no one ever speaks about.

Certainly US Satellite intel was flowing quite sweetly to those who needed it.

I'm also pretty certain that LGB's were used right towards the end on some Argentine artillery positions outside Stanley, but I'm not sure if the ground based laser target illuminators & the munition guidance packages were US supplied or if we already had them.

[Sinos]

the americans are refusing to back us apparently, if that is the case then they can fuck off from their new foundland and ascension island bases (especially ascension as we'd need it to get down to the falklands).

If the ministry of defence have any sense what so ever they'll have sent a couple of subs to the area already to patrol and ensure nothing gets through.

It's just more useless spinning from our shitty national press.

We are aware not only of the current situation but also of the history, but our position remains one of neutrality,” a State Department spokesman told The Times. “The US recognises de facto UK administration of the islands but takes no position on the sovereignty claims of either party

[BIGdavalad]

I'm pretty sure after the Sheffield was hit by a French supplied Exocet missile they (America) supplied us with some sort of anti-missile defence missile? All on the QT of course though as they wanted to appear "Neutral"

Are you thinking about the Phalanx radar guided cannon? They didn't come about until after the Falklands, even the US Navy was only just getting them at the time. The anti-aircraft missiles used by the Royal Navy at the time were the Sea Dart (on the Type 42 and 82 destroyers), Sea Slug (on the County Class destroyers), Sea Wolf (on the Type 22 frigates) and Sea Cat (on the Type 21 frigates) which had varying degrees of success against the Exocet.

I've never heard of any new missiles being fitted to any of the Fleet for the Falklands War - I imagine that all the work you'd need to do to upgrade the ship's electronics, control systems etc and train the crew on new equipment would have been impractical in the short time the ships had between the Argentinean invasion and the dispatch of the Task Force. The same goes for the laser Gulleysucker's heard of being fitted to HMS Invincible (I've never noticed it on any pictures of her from the war) - not saying it didn't happen but it seems unlikely to be true.

I had an instructor who was on the Type 42s at the time, and he never mentioned anything about new missiles when talking about the war.

[The Gulleysucker]

Fo all the reasons BigD said, no new missiles fitted to any of the ships and no Deadly Daleks either.

PM sent BigD

[Dr Cornwallis]

Come on, let's have a proper old-school war with muskets and horses.

[Mr Premier League]

I remember coming into the 21st Century thinking how peaceful the world had become. I almost felt like a hippy. 2001 and everything changed. Gutted.

[Maggie May]

Fo all the reasons BigD said, no new missiles fitted to any of the ships and no Deadly Daleks either.

PM sent BigD

I've been re-reading Sandy Woodward's book.  Definately no mention of any new gear being fitted before the task force sailed or anything brought in after Sheffield (or at any other time).  But I do hope that whatever systems are fitted now are a helluva lot better than those at that time. 

[ttnbd]

I've been re-reading Sandy Woodward's book.  Definately no mention of any new gear being fitted before the task force sailed or anything brought in after Sheffield (or at any other time).  But I do hope that whatever systems are fitted now are a helluva lot better than those at that time. 

Been a while since I've read it and don't remember anything from it myself either, just the delivery of the sidewinders I think.  Deffo used the sea dart system when they could.

Hopefully the restrictions that were placed on the subs in 82 aren't repeated if it escalates.  Had they not been in place (ie each sub restricted to certain areas and not allowed to cross even with a positive contact) then the conflict would have been over much earlier than it was.

I just hope argentina haven't been reading Patrick Barlay's book Ghost Force, otherwise we'll be seeing the russians involved.  An entirely fictitious book but actually quite close to the truth.  Prime minister who's under pressure, argentina angry about the oil and a navy that's short on equipment etc.  Goes a bit far fetched after that but don't most fiction books?

[Maggie May]

Been a while since I've read it and don't remember anything from it myself either, just the delivery of the sidewinders I think.  Deffo used the sea dart system when they could.

Hopefully the restrictions that were placed on the subs in 82 aren't repeated if it escalates.  Had they not been in place (ie each sub restricted to certain areas and not allowed to cross even with a positive contact) then the conflict would have been over much earlier than it was.

I just hope argentina haven't been reading Patrick Barlay's book Ghost Force, otherwise we'll be seeing the russians involved.  An entirely fictitious book but actually quite close to the truth.  Prime minister who's under pressure, argentina angry about the oil and a navy that's short on equipment etc.  Goes a bit far fetched after that but don't most fiction books?

Indeed they do, but these days I'm moving more and more towards the "You Couldn't Make It Up" school of thought.   

Talking about subs (and the Conqueror in particular), there was a great letter in response to a gentleman fervently hoping (as I was above), that the Conqueror was gliding elegantly and with malice aforethought chez Falklands.  The writer said that if she was, she wouldn't be able to see much, as her periscope is sitting on his bookcase!  In July 1988, he was returning a yacht from the west of Scotland to Northern Ireland when, in the middle of the night, he was sunk seven miles offshore.  He was later told that Conqueror's periscope had struck him.  When she was eventually broken up, the Royal Navy sent it to him as a souvenir.   

[The Gulleysucker]

....When she was eventually broken up, the Royal Navy sent it to him as a souvenir.   

I think this might be her now or just a few years ago, with Valiant to starboard. The last photo I saw she no longer had her sail/conning tower, though their positions were reversed.

[Maggie May]

I think this might be her now or just a few years ago, with Valiant to starboard. The last photo I saw she no longer had her sail/conning tower, though their positions were reversed.

Many thanks for that.  Do you know what's happened/happening to her now GS? 

[BIGdavalad]

Many thanks for that.  Do you know what's happened/happening to her now GS? 

The captain's cabin and periscope are apparently in the RN museum in Gosport (no idea what the fella you mentioned above has in his house though!). The rest is probably still there, I believe that the Royal Navy don't currently have anywhere to dump the nuclear bits so decomissioned nuclear boats are parked in Devonport until facilities for the nuclear parts are built/sorted out/whatever you do with nuclear facilities.

[The Gulleysucker]

Many thanks for that.  Do you know what's happened/happening to her now GS? 

No idea Maggie. I think there is still a lot of debate as to how best to dispose of the remains of these boats.
They are quite radioactive or parts of them are. It's not the cutting up that's the problem so much as the transporting of the bits to whatever hole in the ground they decide to put them in and any surrounding hoohaa from protestors. I haven't seen anything on the news down here in the SW on them for a while. I think there's also a few more here at Rosyth.

Conqueror on the left above back in 2006

[Maggie May]

Many thanks for the info Dava and GS - and also for the pictures GS.  Its so sad when fighting vessels reach the end of their lives, especially distinguished ones like HMS Conqueror. 

[The Manhattan Project]

It's a shame HMS Conqueror wasn't preserved entirely, if it was possible, and displayed as a museum vessel.

[The Gulleysucker]

It's a shame HMS Conqueror wasn't preserved entirely, if it was possible, and displayed as a museum vessel.

I doubt it, the residual radioactivity would lead to all kinds of insurmountable and costly problems, and possible future claims from members of the public who had visited such an exhibit.
Perhaps it's a good thing as I've got mixed feelings about this sort of thing being put on a plinth and exhibited. While I accept that some do want to see this sort of stuff preserved, I'm just not too sure this day and age that we should ever glorify such things and it's not as if it is a truly wonderful piece of British inventiveness and technology as it's largely a copy of the US E.B. co submarine designs of the period with some minor UK touches eg the lack of fins on the sail/conning tower etc.
The propellor is most probably a UK design, there was certainly a lot of UK research into cavitation effects back in the 70's to try and reduce noise signatures but I expect it might still be classified, an awful lot of submarine technology tends to be kept under lock and key for a very long time, so won't be put on public display.
The traditional Jolly Roger flown on the return is preserved with a few other de-classified bits and pieces.

[Maggie May]

The captain's cabin and periscope are apparently in the RN museum in Gosport (no idea what the fella you mentioned above has in his house though!). The rest is probably still there, I believe that the Royal Navy don't currently have anywhere to dump the nuclear bits so decomissioned nuclear boats are parked in Devonport until facilities for the nuclear parts are built/sorted out/whatever you do with nuclear facilities.

I've dug out the paper again, and the bloke says "one of her periscopes"    - which I apologise for missing before.  I'm bemused now - would she have a stocked spare?  Gulley to the rescue please.   

OR

Perhaps this fella is telling porkies, unaware of the tremendous and inescapable investigative powers of the mighty BIGDava and Gulley.

OR

Perhaps this is a Cunning Plan by the Royal Navy to dispose of radioactive bits and pieces to the unsuspecting population.  This bloke's name is given as E. Peter Mosley, and he says he lives in Inverness, so we'll track him down when we're next in Scotland.  He should be easy to find - the house that glows in the dark, the fella with the two headed dog - that sort of thing.   

[BIGdavalad]

I've dug out the paper again, and the bloke says "one of her periscopes"    - which I apologise for missing before.  I'm bemused now - would she have a stocked spare?  Gulley to the rescue please.   

Different type of periscope? Night sight and day sight? Normal looking around one and an attack one? Not saying the fella's a liar, I didn't think that she might have had more than one until your post!

[The Gulleysucker]

Maggie, I suspect the RN has a stores warehouse with several periscope assemblies lying about, like they used to have with the old 14/15/16" large calibre guns.
These will be cycled around through the boats as general wear and tear, and maybe collisions with surface vessels and ice and other debris, takes it's toll.
So it's quite possible for that guy to have maybe the top section of the periscope that was damaged and yet for the museum to have another, both having been fitted to the Conqueror.
I expect there is a standard UK periscope fit and dimensions for each series of boats allowing a degree of interchangeability between say the boats of the Attack classes and the boats of the Bomber classes. They are all probably made by Barr & Stroud , sadly now owned by the French (Thales) but still in Glasgow.

[Maggie May]

allowing a degree of interchangeability between say the boats of the Attack classes and the boats of the Bomber classes. They are all probably made by Barr & Stroud , sadly now owned by the French (Thales) but still in Glasgow.

You are a darling for indulging me, but please can I presume on you further     Was there a bit of a miff giving rise to a frisson between classes - or was that just a bit of Barnacle Bill? 

[The Gulleysucker]

Maggie, I honestly really don't know.
I've only ever met and talked to one submariner, briefly and years ago, and he was on the Attack boats but submariners are definitely a breed apart and what you suggest wouldn't surprise me. Since the Bombers go out for around 3 months and the nature of their job means they have strictly no communication back to base except in exceptionally desperate circumstances, ie truly run silent run deep, I expect that alone causes some 'banter' between the respective types crews.
I understand the Bomber crews, because of the strategic importance of their mission, certainly used to be specially selected and profiled from a pool of volunteers, or at least the Officers were, just like in the early days of the RAF V force. I can't confirm, but I imagine this will still go on to some extent as the potential end products of the Attack and Bomber mission profiles are so very different in intent and magnitude of devastation. It's a sobering thought to realise that missile launch is entirely down to the Commander should communications from base fail in time of war.

[Maggie May]

Many thanks for that Gulley.   

[kavah]

Today's Times:

Argentina celebrates diplomatic coup as Hillary Clinton calls for talks over Falklands



http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article7047309.ece

“It’s outrageous after all the support we have given the United States,” said Hattie Kilmartin, a sheepfarmer’s wife.

I've changed my tune on this issue, in part because of some of bigdava's posts , I suppose the quote above sums up how I feel.

[BIGdavalad]

Argentina celebrates diplomatic coup as Hillary Clinton calls for talks over Falklands

Clinton can poke it.

We should offer Argentina a deal - we'll give the Falklands to the indiginous people who were there when we arrived (oh there weren't any, was there?) if they give Argentina back to their indiginous people. The Yanks can get involved if they do the same.

[SP]

Today's Times:

Argentina celebrates diplomatic coup as Hillary Clinton calls for talks over Falklands

She is in Buenos Aires, she is going to make the right noises. It will go down well with the Argentine Electorate and boost the President in the polls. There is no hint that any political pressure will be used. It is all fluff and no substance.

Besides it is only requesting talks. AFAIK the UK is always willing to talk - but the negotiating position is that it is down to the inhabitants, and no political deal will be imposed on them.

[Sasquatch]

Clinton can poke it.

Her husband did, didn't he.

We should offer Argentina a deal - we'll give the Falklands to the indiginous people who were there when we arrived (oh there weren't any, was there?) if they give Argentina back to their indiginous people. The Yanks can get involved if they do the same.

Haha hilarious. But damn right though. Spot on.