Topic: Terrorism Incident outside UK Parliament

[Claire.]

I know this might sound a bit extreme but perhaps it's time to start looking at ways to govern how mosques are run. A lot of these terrorists quite often will give talks at mosques to try and recruit others, spread the ideology ect.

On a related note I stumbled on this article from a few years ago which talks about measures Japan has gone to, to ensure they don't become victims.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/nov/17/viral-image/viral-graphic-says-japan-keeps-out-radical-islam-t/


[You may have an iPhone but you are still using the free version of Tapatalk and spamming us with that knowledge]

Did you read the link you posted? Cos it basically says all of the 'measures they have gone to' are in fact bollocks

[Redman0151]

Absurd and frankly disturbing 

I can only presume you mis-understood what I said. I don't think it's too disturbing to hope that the incident doesn't allow Donald Drumpf, Brexiters and UKIP to gain more support and power, which is exactly what such parties/bodies will attempt to make from this if it turns out to be Islamic extremism.

I understand the point you're making, but if anything I hope it forces the left and central left to engage more with the problem that is present within Islam in not just the UK but across the world. Far too many people have been too ready to engage in whataboutery and handwaving over Islam out of fear of being labelled a racist or lumped in with Drumpf/Brexit/UKIP types.

I wouldn't for a second advise going the disgusting, racist route these types want to, but there needs to be discussion on how to deal with more fundamentalist followers of Islam. This PEW poll for example shows 24% of Muslims in Britain think suicide bombing can be justified, and worryingly 35% of 18-29 year olds http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2015/11/pew-poll-42-of-muslim-youth-in-france-always-support-suicide-bombing/

This isn't a problem going away as the older generation die, quite the opposite, far too many are falling into the hands of bad people or are at least sympathetic to them. These root causes and fundamentalist preachers need to be addressed or it's only going to end in more bloodshed.

In a perfect world, Islam becomes liberalised in the same way Christianity largely has over the past few centuries, but how that goal is achieved I have no idea. Frankly I find the current form of Islam present in the middle east absolutely abhorrent

[Alan_X]

I am sure it was more than a coincidence that the attack took place during a division in the House of Commons. Anyone who knows anything about Parliament has always said it would happen during a 'division'. This is because parliament's guard is very publicly dropped during the first eight minutes of a division. The vehicle blockers are dropped to facilitate easy and quick entry into the building for MP's to vote. I assume there was some reason he failed to reach the gate in his vehicle. I'm not giving any secrets away here, hostile reconnaisence is constantly taking place and any tourist can see this in operation. That place really needs to grow up and modernise instead of all this childish tradition shite.Just being mega pedantic here, but the bridge runs east/west and the attack was on the southern pavement.

You're right - I was in a meeting on the 17th Floor of Westminster City Hall just before the attacks and the view looked over Westminster Abbey to the Palace of Westminster and the London Eye which was looking east but my head tends to think of the river as the a north/south boundary.

I left Westminster about 2.30 and didn't know anything about the attack until I was back in the office. Saw your post - it's always unnerving when you;re close to something like that but it's part and parcel of living or working in London.

[Dr. Beaker]

You're right - I was in a meeting on the 17th Floor of Westminster City Hall just before the attacks and the view looked over Westminster Abbey to the Palace of Westminster and the London Eye which was looking east but my head tends to think of the river as the a north/south boundary.

I left Westminster about 2.30 and didn't know anything about the attack until I was back in the office. Saw your post - it's always unnerving when you;re close to something like that but it's part and parcel of living or working in London.

Most Londoners think it runs north/south!

You missed it by the skin of your teeth mate.

It's the new 'normal' no matter where you live, and no point in obsessing about it, but when it hits close, you feel a bit like a wildebeest that's just seen one of his mates carried off by a lion - very uncomfortable feeling of relief and guilt for feeling relieved.

[Alf]

My thoughts are with the loved ones of those needlessly killed and injured yesterday. I was opposite Aldgate station during 7/7 and it's a day I'll never forget. Someone I worked with was injured on that train and has never been on the tube since.

[Fruity]

I wouldn't for a second advise going the disgusting, racist route these types want to, but there needs to be discussion on how to deal with more fundamentalist followers of Islam. This PEW poll for example shows 24% of Muslims in Britain think suicide bombing can be justified, and worryingly 35% of 18-29 year olds http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2015/11/pew-poll-42-of-muslim-youth-in-france-always-support-suicide-bombing/

I am sure some extremists would like the average person to go down the route of UKIP/Drumpf etc to create more divisions. They are interesting polls and I am sure if there were similar polls during the IRA campaigns many England born Irish would have polled in support as well. Infact I knew two guys who would send money to support. Both born in London and living in London but seemingly relatively happy to see it bombed.

Now I don't want to generalise and I am not a wordsworth so hopefully this will come across as I think it should. Basically there is an issue with 2nd possibly 3rd generation immigrants in this country - not all but definitely some. Non white People that are born here in the UK that are generally not accepted in the same way as their white peers. Yesterday before the attack there was a report on BBC breakfast that Black graduates are less likely to get a job than their white counterparts. Both are born and brought up in the UK but one of them is possibly going to have greater struggles than the other and have to deal with different prejudices. There are many more prejudices then the one mentioned above by the BBC but as it is the most recent one so I have used that for relevance.

This creates a disassociation with the country you are born and brought up in. Most people get on with it and deal with it but there will always be some that will look elsewhere. Some will look into crime, gangs, extremism who knows. For the most part it is a minority that will follow that path but with greater divisions seeming to appear in this country I think the likelihood is more will follow suit.

The first generation of immigrants always knew what they were - immigrants, they put up with shit but for the most part were thankful for the opportunity in another country, but the 2nd or 3rd generation are not immigrants but for the most part will be treated in a similar way (maybe not as blatantly but the hidden prejudices are still there). So if you don't feel you fit into the country you are born in maybe you look elsewhere  to feel part of something.

As mentioned above its not a one size fits all and I am not excusing the actions on any individual - far from it. But I guess everyone would want to prevent things like this happening again and I think this is part of the reasoning behind why so often it is English born people who commit these attrocities.

[Danny Boys Dad]

I wouldn't for a second advise going the disgusting, racist route these types want to, but there needs to be discussion on how to deal with more fundamentalist followers of Islam. This PEW poll for example shows 24% of Muslims in Britain think suicide bombing can be justified, and worryingly 35% of 18-29 year olds http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2015/11/pew-poll-42-of-muslim-youth-in-france-always-support-suicide-bombing/

You're quoting something from the gateway pundit? The site that received an award from Breitbart for services to journalism?

[classycarra]

Theresa May speaking to Parliament right now. Just confirmed the attacker was, they believe, working alone. They know the identity of the attacker. He is British born. He was historically (not an active case) investigated by MI5 for his Islamist views. They will announce his name in time (I think this is sensible)

She listed the nationalities of those injured on the bridge. There were citizens from Ireland, America, France, Germany, Poland, Romania, South Korea and I've probably forgotten others.

Truly the height of cowardice, attacking these poor tourists. Typical of Islamist terrorists

[JerseyKloppite]

It was a smart arse twenty:twenty hindsight comment in my opinion.

It's also pointless to say that "we knew it would happen in X place and still people were killed". It's impossible to stop people killing other people in these kind of attacks unless you have the intelligence to arrest before they get in a car. He could have driven onto any pavement on any street in London and killed a number of people. You can't stop that short of putting large bollards every 10-15 ft on every pavement which isn't remotely practical.

All the police and security services can do is to try to fully protect obvious targets, and every indication was yesterday that they did, hence his failure to gain access to the building (however unlikely it was that he'd succeed). They can't protect every road and street in London; such is the size of London and the number of high profile buildings and targets that you'd have to constantly blockade almost every road inside the Circle Line.

[classycarra]

You're quoting something from the gateway pundit? The site that received an award from Breitbart for services to journalism?

There are similarly concerning survey results in the UK, published in the last six months. If I have time at work, I will search for them soon.

EDIT: Here https://policyexchange.org.uk/publication/unsettled-belonging-a-survey-of-britains-muslim-communities/

Not as starkly concerning as the quoted French figures to be fair, but still concerning to those of us who prefer the UK to be secular

[zero zero]

It's also pointless to say that "we knew it would happen in X place and still people were killed". It's impossible to stop people killing other people in these kind of attacks unless you have the intelligence to arrest before they get in a car. He could have driven onto any pavement on any street in London and killed a number of people. You can't stop that short of putting large bollards every 10-15 ft on every pavement which isn't remotely practical.

In which case, somebody could just knock people down on a pedestrian crossing.

I agree it's impossible to mitigate for absolutely every mundane eventuality, in every street in every city and town in the UK.

[Redman0151]

You're quoting something from the gateway pundit? The site that received an award from Breitbart for services to journalism?

I am quoting a PEW poll result

[killer-heels]

Theresa May speaking to Parliament right now. Just confirmed the attacker was, they believe, working alone. They know the identity of the attacker. He is British born. He was historically (not an active case) investigated by MI5 for his Islamist views. They will announce his name in time (I think this is sensible)

She listed the nationalities of those injured on the bridge. There were citizens from Ireland, America, France, Germany, Poland, Romania, South Korea and I've probably forgotten others.

Truly the height of cowardice, attacking these poor tourists. Typical of Islamist terrorists

I guess the good thing is this is someone the intelligence services knew, so clearly they are doing something right in identifying risks. Obviously the next step will be to what lengths they go to in terms of neutralising everyone who may pose some level of risk, how high on the risk register people need to be and how many people there are actually known.

[filopastry]

The problem with these kind of attacks though is that monitoring communications and the like isn't likely to give much help in identifying an imminent attack.

The only materials required were a vehicle and knives that isn't something that requires collaboration and communication between multiple people, purchasing unusual materials or indeed any planning of note.

[Fruity]

I guess the good thing is this is someone the intelligence services knew, so clearly they are doing something right in identifying risks. Obviously the next step will be to what lengths they go to in terms of neutralising everyone who may pose some level of risk, how high on the risk register people need to be and how many people there are actually known.

I think they need to review some of the policies regarding the internet. Supposedly anti terrorist police allow a lot of these dodgy websites to continue running so they can see who the people are who frequent them. However if the "lone wolf" is the new terrorist risk they are unlikely to stop all of them even though they may know who they are. Maybe removing all the websites instead might make it harder for a random loon to get the info in the first place and therefore suppresses the issue or forces them to look elsewhere. They also definitely need greater support within those communities as well.

[killer-heels]

The problem with these kind of attacks though is that monitoring communications and the like isn't likely to give much help in identifying an imminent attack.

The only materials required were a vehicle and knives that isn't something that requires collaboration and communication between multiple people, purchasing unusual materials or indeed any planning of note.

The direction with these things is identifying the people who may do such a thing and then its to what extent you monitor/prevent/disable the actions of these individuals. Obviously there are a myriad of questions around what is deemed a risk, how high or low was such a person on the risk register, is there the man power or ability etc.

Then obviously there are questions around the sources of such motivation. What is deemed extremist videos worthy of censorship and what materials do radicalise someone and then you are into the realms of liberty, free speech, pyschology etc.

[killer-heels]

I think they need to review some of the policies regarding the internet. Supposedly anti terrorist police allow a lot of these dodgy websites to continue running so they can see who the people are who frequent them. However if the "lone wolf" is the new terrorist risk they are unlikely to stop all of them even though they may know who they are. Maybe removing all the websites instead might make it harder for a random loon to get the info in the first place and therefore suppresses the issue or forces them to look elsewhere. They also definitely need greater support within those communities as well.

You then are in the realms of what materials exactly radicalise someone and there is the definition or distinction between that, the reality of what is actual recruitment video, free speech etc.

The thing to be fortunate about really is that these are very rare attacks and the security services have done a brilliant job keeping us safe. Really there is very little to worry about (says the person who is shit scared of flying).

[youll never walk alone it]

The authorities had a drill on the 19th  march involving "terrorists" holding  the thames boats passengers hostage, so they were not far off the mark...quite often drills are going on often on the same day as a terror event or in the days around it, as in the 7/7 attacks on the very same places attacked, bloody bizarre really.

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

The authorities had a drill on the 19th  march involving "terrorists" holding  the thames boats passengers hostage, so they were not far off the mark...quite often drills are going on often on the same day as a terror event or in the days around it, as in the 7/7 attacks on the evry same places attacked, bloody bizarre really.

I was just sorting out the daily papers at work and that Thames terror drill was on the Monday cover of the Guardian and then obviously the real thing on today's cover.

[Dr. Beaker]

The authorities had a drill on the 19th  march involving "terrorists" holding  the thames boats passengers hostage, so they were not far off the mark...quite often drills are going on often on the same day as a terror event or in the days around it, as in the 7/7 attacks on the evry same places attacked, bloody bizarre really.

There was one at Heathrow about twenty years ago. Mortars were flying overhead and everyone thought it was the SAS who were present and about to have some kind of exercise. The bad news was it was the IRA, the good news was most of the mortars never went off.

[puroresu_kid]

I know this might sound a bit extreme but perhaps it's time to start looking at ways to govern how mosques are run. A lot of these terrorists quite often will give talks at mosques to try and recruit others, spread the ideology ect.

This isn't true at all.  The idea that mosques just allow anyone to speak mosque attenders about anything that want is laughable.

People can get the messages they want across to others without stepping foot in a mosque.  The internet is a far more effective tool.

[killer-heels]

Surely a mosque is a site least likely for such recruitment/inspiration to take place?

[classycarra]

This isn't true at all.  The idea that mosques just allow anyone to speak mosque attenders about anything that want is laughable.

People can get the messages they want across to others without stepping foot in a mosque.  The internet is a far more effective tool.

Don't think anyone's daft enough to think all mosques allow anyone to join in open discussion! Goes pretty fundamentally against Islam. I'm sure more than 50% of the Muslim population wouldn't be allowed to address the mosque because of their gender, for a start

[puroresu_kid]

Surely a mosque is a site least likely for such recruitment/inspiration to take place?

Very much so.  I'm Muslim and politics are never even discussed let alone issues such as war.  If anything this is a disconnect between the mosques and the youths as on the one hand we see things like Syria, Iraq yet the mosques never address these things.



 

[west_london_red]

FFS just when things are bad the BBC wheel out Paul Nuttal for an interview...

[Alan_X]

FFS just when things are bad the BBC wheel out Paul Nuttal for an interview...

Isn't he still leader of UKIP?

[classycarra]

FFS just when things are bad the BBC wheel out Paul Nuttal for an interview...

Has he claimed he was on the bridge?

[killer-heels]

Has he claimed he was on the bridge?

[Xabi Gerrard]

Has he claimed he was on the bridge?

He was the marksman who took down the terrorist according to his website...

[Dr. Beaker]

Has Theresa May forgotten to chain her bike up or something?

[Durlmints]

Absurd and frankly disturbing 

I can only presume you mis-understood what I said. I don't think it's too disturbing to hope that the incident doesn't allow Donald Drumpf, Brexiters and UKIP to gain more support and power, which is exactly what such parties/bodies will attempt to make from this if it turns out to be Islamic extremism.

His point is that it's disturbing to politicize innocent deaths before the bodies are even cold. The fact your first thoughts were to hope the attacker fits your own political views when there is blood still on the Westminster tarmac is, as Buck Pete puts it, absurd and frankly disturbing.

Sure, in the aftermath we can all have a discussion about how it affects politics, how certain horrible groups may want to piggyback on the misery to further their agendas etc. But it seems very strange to have a preference over the skin colour of a murderer.

[Kashinoda]

Many of these countries have their own issues to deal with. They have lots of incidents and they happen with far more regularity than safe countries like the UK. Not to downplay what happened today or to back the shite regimes in charge of some of those countries, but this really isnt a massive incident.

At the same time many of those countries don't, Saudi Arabia had an incident in 2015 but other than that you need to go back a while. The selection of Muslim countries that has a constant barrage of incidents is relatively small.

I think in general there needs to be a point made about Muslims speaking out about this sort of stuff in numbers, to put clear distance between being a Muslim and being an extremist. Because at the moment every one of these terror attacks just recruits more people to the far right, which in turn creates more racial friction, which in turn creates more extremists, and on and on we go.

The problem is it's easy to become a target if you speak out, or exiled from your community.

Terrorism has never been more effective and I really worry for the future, you like to think they'll just get bored but with Trump in the Whitehouse and Brexit on the door step why would they?

[Phil M]

I see this thread is going off in a few fairly predictable tangents.

[Alan_X]

I see this thread is going off in a few fairly predictable tangents.

Yes - can we keep to the facts as far as we know them.

[Phil M]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-39355505

"BBC News understands that the attacker was shot by a bodyguard of Defence Secretary, Sir Michael Fallon, not a routine armed guard.

Political editor Laura Kuenssberg told BBC Two's Daily Politics: "The crucial difference is that those bodyguards are only in the Palace of Westminster when those ministers are actually there." 

[classycarra]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-39355505

"BBC News understands that the attacker was shot by a bodyguard of Defence Secretary, Sir Michael Fallon, not a routine armed guard.

Political editor Laura Kuenssberg told BBC Two's Daily Politics: "The crucial difference is that those bodyguards are only in the Palace of Westminster when those ministers are actually there." 

https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/844896804508504064

.@metpoliceuk response when asked if plain-clothes marksman who shot #londonattack terrorist was Def Sec Michael Fallon's protection officer

[oldfordie]

Someone on TV was saying the gate into Parliament where the killer stabbed the policeman is usually closed,it had just been opened to let someone leave which I assume may have been Michael Fallon as his security shot the killer.

[puroresu_kid]

At the same time many of those countries don't, Saudi Arabia had an incident in 2015 but other than that you need to go back a while. The selection of Muslim countries that has a constant barrage of incidents is relatively small.

I think in general there needs to be a point made about Muslims speaking out about this sort of stuff in numbers, to put clear distance between being a Muslim and being an extremist. Because at the moment every one of these terror attacks just recruits more people to the far right, which in turn creates more racial friction, which in turn creates more extremists, and on and on we go.

The problem is it's easy to become a target if you speak out, or exiled from your community.

Terrorism has never been more effective and I really worry for the future, you like to think they'll just get bored but with Trump in the Whitehouse and Brexit on the door step why would they?

The attacks in Muslim countries will be more directed to the governments and security forces as justifying attacks on Muslim civilians wont be possible.

Muslims shouldn't be asked to apologise for terrorist acts or have to come out and condemn it as that automatically puts the burden on Muslims as if they do support such actions unless they vocally say otherwise.

As for the likes of Saudi Arabia saying something, even if they do its just not taken with any credibility and that's the problem. On the one hand they want to condemn terrorism yet on the other they bomb Iraq and Syria claiming to be hitting ISIS yet they kill hundreds of civilians.



 

[classycarra]

The attacks in Muslim countries will be more directed to the governments and security forces as justifying attacks on Muslim civilians wont be possible.

Many bombs in busy Turkish, Iraqi and Syrian public market places would suggest you are entirely incorrect in this assertion. You appear unaware, or unwilling to broach, of Islamic sectarianism.

[Kashinoda]

Muslims shouldn't be asked to apologise for terrorist acts or have to come out and condemn it as that automatically puts the burden on Muslims as if they do support such actions unless they vocally say otherwise.

The burden is already there mate, look at the political and social climate in the UK and USA.

In the eyes of very many Muslims are okay with Terrorism, the far right don't make distinctions.