Topic: THE WALK OUT ON 77 MINUTES AT THE SUNDERLAND MATCH

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Perhaps because some see it as a way of getting FSG out (and themselves in) at any cost.

You are such a bellendian based Troll aren't you mate?

[Dave D]

Perhaps not. But it's still the elephant in the room.

Why are players above criticism? How is it possible that 5 times the average annual earnings are ok to pay to one player in one week?

I'm fairly sure every fan believes that the wages and transfer fees of players are a disgusting abomination on the sport. I have not doubt that owners of football clubs around Europe would love to impose a salary cap on players. But I'm fucked if I'm going to do their dirty work for them.

The protests will continue against them, whether you back it or not. If you, or anybody else decides to throw themselves in front of the owners and the people who run the club, don't come crying on here if you get caught in the crossfire.

This isn't going away.

[Pistolero]

Perhaps because some see it as a way of getting FSG out (and themselves in) at any cost.

alright Lord Haw-Haw, put the microphone down....

[lobsterboy]

this should now be more than ticket prices. supporters clubs should now be all taking notice and beginning their own action to protest at the stupid amount footballers and agents recieve as our pockets get rinsed by the likes of SKY etc to fund it.

[B0151?]

Perhaps not. But it's still the elephant in the room.

Why are players above criticism? How is it possible that 5 times the average annual earnings are ok to pay to one player in one week?

They should be on £30k a year and FSG should take home the rest I reckon. Everyone wins.

I mean, only FSG do like, because they'd still try and get as much as they can out of fans given they're here to make as much money as possible (like most owners, in fairness), but you know.

Seriously though, it's not on the players to self-enforce a wage limit in a multi-billion industry. If we're talking about salary caps, I'd only support them if there were profit caps too, and your capitalist owners would obviously be ardently against that.

[24/7]

alright Lord Haw-Haw, put the microphone down....

Alright lads that's enough. Fuck's sake. Peter's actually making some thought-provoking posts here in a reasonable and non-aggressive manner. Whichever 'side' you're on, you have to be prepared to look sensibly at the other 'side's' position. That's how we learn things.

Usually we find that the solution lies midway between the entrenched positions, or the solution is arrived at by taking a bit from here, a bit from there and bit from left-field or whatever.

So - cap the players' wages, cap the transfer fees, definitely cap the agents' cut, cap the ticket prices - do all that at a level that is sustainable and fair and equal........just a thought........

[Pistolero]

Alright lads that's enough. Fuck's sake. Peter's actually making some thought-provoking posts here in a reasonable and non-aggressive manner.

he has, but that wasn't one of them...

[Millie]

Alright lads that's enough. Fuck's sake. Peter's actually making some thought-provoking posts here in a reasonable and non-aggressive manner. Whichever 'side' you're on, you have to be prepared to look sensibly at the other 'side's' position. That's how we learn things.

Usually we find that the solution lies midway between the entrenched positions, or the solution is arrived at by taking a bit from here, a bit from there and bit from left-field or whatever.

So - cap the players' wages, cap the transfer fees, definitely cap the agents' cut, cap the ticket prices - do all that at a level that is sustainable and fair and equal........just a thought........

I think he is talking bollocks myself and sounds like a mouthpiece for FSG

[RedPat]

Give me an Abramovich or oil rich sheik over this fucking FSG any day,American owners are the worst you can have greed beyond belief VULTURE CAPITALISTS fuck off and take that fucking Harley riding prick with you as well.

[BCCC]

Fanbase is already split though Geoff. Same when G&H were about -large sections did absolutely fuck all about it, but were quite happy to reap the rewards.
The ground's full of the c*nts.

Same situation here. Doesn't matter what argument you make, and fuck knows if anyone can't see the compelling reasons for what happened yesterday, then they are either selfish beyond belief, clueless, or both.

Agree about the improper use of the scab label. This time. But now there's no excuse - everyone knows the score, they know the protest is on, and they're in or out.

If they're out, then fuck them and their feelings.

Agree that the fan base is split and has been for a long time and ironically the bigger the success the bigger the split it seems. It's difficult to gauge the level of the split at the moment though, some people just take more time to make their minds up or commit to something they feel in their gut. There will be a proportion of those that remained yesterday who will actively join in on the next protest and some who want to be with you but aren't strong enough in character but there will always be those who don't agree and will oppose. I wouldn't class them as scabs because they aren't, they're just exercising their views the same as those who left. They never signed up for and committed to anything that they are now turning their backs on. Ostracising them will maintain the divide whilst discussion and debate may bring them closer. Always keep the door open.

[vivabobbygraham]

Alright lads that's enough. Fuck's sake. Peter's actually making some thought-provoking posts here in a reasonable and non-aggressive manner. Whichever 'side' you're on, you have to be prepared to look sensibly at the other 'side's' position. That's how we learn things.

Usually we find that the solution lies midway between the entrenched positions, or the solution is arrived at by taking a bit from here, a bit from there and bit from left-field or whatever.

So - cap the players' wages, cap the transfer fees, definitely cap the agents' cut, cap the ticket prices - do all that at a level that is sustainable and fair and equal........just a thought........

Is he?

Sounds like he's defending the club's stance as per by using players wages to deflect blame. It's his usual tactic. Any dissent toward the clubs fiscal policy is always defended by him in the same way, 24. Check it out. It doesn't belong in this thread, either, imo.

[fowlermagic]

Well done yesterday as it was strange to hear YNWA around 75 min and then the crowd started to walk. Might perk up the owners ears as something has to be done as the cost of the game is spiraling out of control from ticket costs to the wages / transfer fees of players.

You got to presume the owners look at sports in the States as their template if they had their way. Cap salaries, free agents all that jazz and in some ways it might help but on the other side you see how they chip away at the fans wallet once they walk in to the stadium. Completely different experience though as most of the fans in the States seem to venture to the odd game and spend more time feeding the family than watching the game.

Its a start for sure as we all love to see younger fans getting a chance and perhaps if you want to start the ball rolling at home too tell the kids no more 500 quid phones as you are going to a few Liverpool matches this season with me.

[Alf Garnett!]

This is all about FSG taking the piss out of the supporters.

The tv deal figure,lets say for example £100m handed out next term could easily have been £80m or £120m.

The current rises in ticket prices would still have gone ahead.

Its not acceptable & by now i'm sure they'll have set up their own meeting.

Our supporter groups should already have or prepared a letter to the club requesting their response prior to our next moves.

If the club takes this lightly then they obviously couldnt care less & know fuck all about us.

I can see a positive outcome over this long term.

[Bunter]

So Peter McGurk is against fans taking a stand at being priced but wants them to get on board to start sorting players wages out, agent fees and trying to take on the whole of football... aye alright.

Genuinely think some just oppose these things because they didn't think of it first or don't have any better ideas.

[BCCC]

So Peter McGurk is against fans taking a stand at being priced but wants them to get on board to start sorting players wages out, agent fees and trying to take on the whole of football... aye alright.

Genuinely think some just oppose these things because they didn't think of it first or don't have any better ideas.

Some people are like that, they can see the bigger problem that they feel they cannot affect to the point acceptance and ignoring the problem in front of them that they can.

[BigAl24]

Lads this may have already been addressed, but what is the next step now that the first walk out has been done?

[AKABillyGee]

I stopped posting on here some considerable time ago and became a reader rather than a contributor. The reason for that was that when I voiced my concerns that certain posters (as mentioned here) always took FSG's side - no matter what and that they appeared more cheer leaders than balanced critics, I was attacked for those comments. Staff who are the only ones with the ability to  access my avatar, started to include derogatory comments and innuendo into my personal details.

When I sent an email complaining I received no reply. Delightful.

If you want an independent view on how some of these pro FSG are viewed get onto another forum such as Skyscraper City, especially the Anfield Redevelopment discussions, RAWK is not seen in a positive light. And after my own personal experience, I can see why.

[FlashingBlade]

Some thoughts having slept on it, I didn't think it would be so well embraced, in fact Im starting to think was it 10,000?...why has everyone taken the BBC assesment as so valid, my mate ( obsessive , selfish crank) who stayed said more then half Kop left...conservative that's 7 to 8,000...are we saying only the equivalent numbers as Sunderland brought left the rest of  the ground? I would be interested what the police view is as the post match debrief would have to asses the numbers for H&S reasons, having said it was a brilliant response whatever the figure.

For those who stayed,its a personal choice, but as with everything in life we must take responsibility for our choice of  actions, and non- action is a choice....at some point the issue will be raised ( as I have experience in industrial actions) why do we make the sacrifices yet they who do nothing receive the benefit?

For me the next stage should have bigger impact, Id go for a match boycott at home ( a BIG ask!) ...and to maximise it I would choose the first ( if we have any) Sunday live 4pm KO for Sky, at this point I can only see Spurs at home being such a fixture...Buy a ticket and no show...or don't buy  let the Yanks taste an Anfield void of the most committed fans.


Leaving the ground was the first time in long time I felt I was back amongst 'Shanks Red Army'..it reminded me of leaving Old Trafford in the Eighties, a mob of Liverpoool, thousands of us, powerful, no fear, taking control with  impunity....it felt good!

[rafathegaffa83]

It is ironic the the porno barons who run West Ham have an understanding of what this is all about. They deliberately refused to hike prices of tickets to the Olympic Stadium as the margin  would not make much difference to their overall income, recognizing that TV money is the driver and supporters inside the stadium is what the club is all about. I'm not defending Gold and co who aren't people I'd want to go for a pint with, but at least they have a glimmer of understanding.

To be fair, they are getting close to 20,000 more seats at the Olympic Stadium than they did at Upton Park. And they got these extra seats for only £15m of the £272m conversion costs and £2.5m in annual rent.

[Peter McGurk]

Is he?

Sounds like he's defending the club's stance as per by using players wages to deflect blame. It's his usual tactic. Any dissent toward the clubs fiscal policy is always defended by him in the same way, 24. Check it out. It doesn't belong in this thread, either, imo.

I'm not here to defend FSG come what may. I have a mind of my own thanks. Have done on here for over 10 years as you well know and not about to change now.

If you don't want to think beyond owners are bad, well fine. I have no problem protesting against prices but it's got to bark up the right tree. If it's not players driving up prices, what is? Listening to what people have to say here (there's a thing), this posted elsewhere (with a microphone):

"If players are only taking advantage of the market, the market is being pumped up by TV exacerbated by a deal with the FA, which disproportionately rewards the winners. Pushing the highest earners further from reach and leaving the rest to make every penny of TV, Commercial and Matchday Revenue count - including every penny from the fans.

So, the very 'saviour' of ticket prices, the thing to bring the prices down, is having the quite opposite effect...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/31386483

"It is great news. This incredible sum of money means the club that finishes bottom of the Premier League in the 2016-17 season will pocket £99m.

The champions will earn more than £150m in prize money and that is before additional fees are paid to clubs who stage more TV matches than others.

In the past, there have been increased TV deals spent on better players, bigger transfer fees and higher wages. That is likely to happen again, at least to some extent, and may even help England's best clubs bridge the gap to the likes of Real Madrid and Barcelona in the Champions League.

It also means that all 20 Premier League clubs could break into the top 30 richest clubs in the world - currently they all occupy a place in the top 40. Burnley are richer than Ajax."

For others...

"...this deal takes the Premier League into a new stratosphere and is bound to have a lasting impact on the field. It may not be long until the days of the first £100m Premier League player, who is paid £500,000 per week.

Premier League chief executive Richard Scudamore told BBC Radio 5 live: "In 1986 there was no one that wanted to broadcast football. There was not even a highlights programme.

"From the dark days of stadium disasters and other things, it's an amazing rise. We now put on a show that people want to watch and attend - and in ever increasing numbers. There's more interest than ever before."

Its all too big a price to pay "

[jillcwhomever]

Lads this may have already been addressed, but what is the next step now that the first walk out has been done?

I think they are going to give the club a bit of time to react. I think someone said last night there was another meeting mid-week to decide what next.

[OneTouchFooty]

Some people are like that, they can see the bigger problem that they feel they cannot affect to the point acceptance and ignoring the problem in front of them that they can.

If history was full of Pete McGurk's, the naysayers of history we'd never have progressed past the Stone Age. The rights and freedoms we enjoy today started from small protests like this and grew into large scale movements as sentiments changed, ok we're not talking on the scale of the Civil rights movement or the Suffragettes here, obviously, but the process is still the same.

[BCCC]

For those who stayed,its a personal choice, but as with everything in life we must take responsibility for our choice of  actions, and non- action is a choice....at some point the issue will be raised ( as I have experience in industrial actions) why do we make the sacrifices yet they who do nothing receive the benefit?

As Frank Sinatra once said, "That's life" or was it Esther Rantzen?

Just be thankful there are enough of those like you willing to make a stand in an attempt to change things.

[BCCC]

If history was full of Pete McGurk's, the naysayers of history we'd never have progressed past the Stone Age. The rights and freedoms we enjoy today started from small protests like this and grew into large scale movements as sentiments changed, ok we're not talking on the scale of the Civil rights movement or the Suffragettes here, obviously, but the process is still the same.

Exactly.

[kennedy81]

The owners need to stop looking at the people who go to the game as just another commercial opportunity. It flies in the face of so much of the club's history and tradition, as well as it's local demographic.

There's been a consistent de-coupling of the crowd and the team on the pitch, since they've been here. No-one at the club seems to think that the crowd can actually help the team be successful. And it's manifested in a worse atmosphere and increasing ticket prices. And for what?
And then to rub it in, they have the nerve to actually use those very traditions of the Anfield crowd as a selling point, while at the same time throwing them on the scrapheap. It's not acceptable and it has to stop.

[FlashingBlade]

[quote author=Peter McGurk link=topic=325976.msg14459698#msg14459698 date=1454850944

If you don't want to think beyond owners are bad, well fine. I have no problem protesting against prices but it's got to bark up the right tree. If it's not players driving up prices, what is? This posted elsewhere (with a microphone):


[/quote]

When everyone was singing " greedy bastards enough is enough" some where pointing to the main stand..I was confused as I thought it meant the players!!....joking apart, I have a different idea how to approach this as some others, but what can be done is dependent on a range of factors, do I think that FSG will drop their whole raison d'etre to sweat the assets to get as much out of the club as they can ? No,will we have £30 tickets in two years? doubtfull....but if by chance we recapture some of the Scouse bellicouse spirit as a result and that trasnfers to the crowd, then that's worth the ticket money alone....as long as its not £50!

[BCCC]

Given that protesting against ridiculous prices is a good thing, which particular part do you not like?

Nothing, as I've said you see the problem differently or more deeply. Others either don't see it that way or more likely want to attack the part of the problem they can affect. At least you're aiming down the same road I just think you'll be waiting a long time for the bus.

[Peter McGurk]

Nothing, as I've said you see the problem differently or more deeply. Others either don't see it that way or more likely want to attack the part of the problem they can affect. At least you're aiming down the same road I just think you'll be waiting a long time for the bus.

I see but Rome (or football stadiums) weren't built in a day and it's as well to be on the right bus or if not, get a cab.

Money is at the root of it and as I think more about it, it's huge dollops of TV money, players taking advantage and the deal with the FA where the problem starts.

[Romford_Red]

We don't censor opinions on RAWK mate, but you've made your contrary one from your far off land several times now. Best you log off now before you can't log back in again.

"We don't censor opinions here, so pipe down before we censor you."
Nice. Not an absurd sentence post at all.

[Gnurglan]

Some thoughts having slept on it, I didn't think it would be so well embraced, in fact Im starting to think was it 10,000?...why has everyone taken the BBC assesment as so valid, my mate ( obsessive , selfish crank) who stayed said more then half Kop left...conservative that's 7 to 8,000...are we saying only the equivalent numbers as Sunderland brought left the rest of  the ground? I would be interested what the police view is as the post match debrief would have to asses the numbers for H&S reasons, having said it was a brilliant response whatever the figure.

For those who stayed,its a personal choice, but as with everything in life we must take responsibility for our choice of  actions, and non- action is a choice....at some point the issue will be raised ( as I have experience in industrial actions) why do we make the sacrifices yet they who do nothing receive the benefit?

For me the next stage should have bigger impact, Id go for a match boycott at home ( a BIG ask!) ...and to maximise it I would choose the first ( if we have any) Sunday live 4pm KO for Sky, at this point I can only see Spurs at home being such a fixture...Buy a ticket and no show...or don't buy  let the Yanks taste an Anfield void of the most committed fans.


Leaving the ground was the first time in long time I felt I was back amongst 'Shanks Red Army'..it reminded me of leaving Old Trafford in the Eighties, a mob of Liverpoool, thousands of us, powerful, no fear, taking control with  impunity....it felt good!

Next step? What if fans from all PL clubs could do something together? Realistically, other clubs' fans will have the same issue.

[campioni]

I'm not here to defend FSG come what may. I have a mind of my own thanks. Have done on here for over 10 years as you well know and not about to change now.

If you don't want to think beyond owners are bad, well fine. I have no problem protesting against prices but it's got to bark up the right tree. If it's not players driving up prices, what is? Listening to what people have to say here (there's a thing), this posted elsewhere (with a microphone):

"If players are only taking advantage of the market, the market is being pumped up by TV exacerbated by a deal with the FA, which disproportionately rewards the winners. Pushing the highest earners further from reach and leaving the rest to make every penny of TV, Commercial and Matchday Revenue count - including every penny from the fans.

So, the very 'saviour' of ticket prices, the thing to bring the prices down, is having the quite opposite effect...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/31386483

"It is great news. This incredible sum of money means the club that finishes bottom of the Premier League in the 2016-17 season will pocket £99m.

The champions will earn more than £150m in prize money and that is before additional fees are paid to clubs who stage more TV matches than others.

In the past, there have been increased TV deals spent on better players, bigger transfer fees and higher wages. That is likely to happen again, at least to some extent, and may even help England's best clubs bridge the gap to the likes of Real Madrid and Barcelona in the Champions League.

It also means that all 20 Premier League clubs could break into the top 30 richest clubs in the world - currently they all occupy a place in the top 40. Burnley are richer than Ajax."

For others...

"...this deal takes the Premier League into a new stratosphere and is bound to have a lasting impact on the field. It may not be long until the days of the first £100m Premier League player, who is paid £500,000 per week.

Premier League chief executive Richard Scudamore told BBC Radio 5 live: "In 1986 there was no one that wanted to broadcast football. There was not even a highlights programme.

"From the dark days of stadium disasters and other things, it's an amazing rise. We now put on a show that people want to watch and attend - and in ever increasing numbers. There's more interest than ever before."

Its all too big a price to pay "

I agree transfers and wages are a massive part of the problem and it's all interlinked but who is it decides to pay the fees and wages? The clubs.

It depressed the life out of me this week hearing Arsene Wenger say as a matter of fact that increased tv revenue would be spent on players. That from the manager of the club with the most expensive tickets in the league. The clubs have already decided the extra money will go to the players and that is why they're increasing ticket prices.

They are basically saying they would rather give the money to the already overpaid millionaires than the supporters who are struggling to pay to support their team. This protest is a step by supporters saying we're not gonna simply stand by and accept it.

[BCCC]

I see but Rome (or football stadiums) weren't built in a day and it's as well to be on the right bus or if not, get a cab.

There's more than one bus on the same route, yours isn't due to leave anytime soon as currently there's no driver.

[Alf Garnett!]

Problem is Pete,the cab fare is too fucking expensive & some cant afford to take the bus.

Light bulb yet?

[FlashingBlade]

Next step? What if fans from all PL clubs could do something together? Realistically, other clubs' fans will have the same issue.

Ive been saying all along , this issue goes beyond LFC. My view is simple, some hard ground work done by all fan groups within their own fan base and then unification across the country on common aims. I would target next seasons big 6 live Sky game, and work on a form of boycott for them and the sponsers...SKY would be onto the Premier League to sort this out in the interest of the 'product'...its a massive ask, and would take time and huge effort, but all great movements do.

[Graham Smith]

I get all of that. But the cash injection from TV applies to all teams and not just Liverpool and the rising tide raises all boats. Part of the reason even lower and mid-table clubs can spend more money than their counterparts in Spain or Italy is the manner in which tv revenue is divided in England. Barca and Real have monopolised the tv money in Spain. This is why Ayre and co wanted to negotiate a separate tv deal. But you know all this.

I'm not saying that FSG should be wringing the fans for the sake of 2m. I'm saying that even if they did and raised 2m from match day revenues on top of what they normally did, that money would (or, at least, more than half of it) would go into the player's pockets. Whatever extra money they make from the tv deal will also, for the most part, go into player's pockets. In fact, much of the club's turnover goes into the player's pockets. My point is simple. If you want to address the issue of clubs wringing more money from fans, do it across the board. Doing it at one club alone won't work when the tv money coming in will further decrease differences in spending power and therefore, our affect our ability to compete at the top.

Stop agonising about competitiveness, it's an utter irrelevance and part of the Club's smoke and mirrors.

Being better managed by 10% would be worth millions and millions.

[Jake]

Perhaps not. But it's still the elephant in the room.

Why are players above criticism? How is it possible that 5 times the average annual earnings are ok to pay to one player in one week?

You're not wrong, but the greed of the players (via their cancerous agents) and the fleecing of fans by the club are not mutually exclusive.

The fans were right to walk out to raise the issue. Perhaps somewhere down the lime fsg will point to transfers and salaries and we go from there

Everyone is bickering over a moot point.

[L666KOP]

Stop agonising about competitiveness, it's an utter irrelevance and part of the Club's smoke and mirrors.

Being better managed by 10% would be worth millions and millions.

So you agree that the biggest issue is how we spend the money ?

Why aren't the protests aimed at those that cause the issue then ?

Seriously Graham, upper and mid level personnel failing to implement the correct staff to move us forward would be a place to start, even rooting out the bloody scouts would be an arrow aimed in a better direction.
If we were halfway efficient then the calls for cheaper seats would be justified.

[John C]

"We don't censor opinions here, so pipe down before we censor you."
Nice. Not an absurd sentence post at all.

Hi 
To contextualise the situation, this is a thread with a seemingly majority support of over 90% for the walk-out. You may not be very familiar with RAWK but we tend to discourage thread domination. So when a poster, who lives in Canada, repeatedly criticises the fans of our club for walking out of course he is going to politely be asked to pipe down. He's been permitted his say to something that will never effect his life, his posts attract attention and often re-quoted with abuse so excuse me for trying to assist to moderate the debate and to keep the thread tidy.

[24/7]

"We don't censor opinions here, so pipe down before we censor you."
Nice. Not an absurd sentence post at all.

Nono censoring would be preventing the opinion being aired in the first place. When it's repeated ad fucking nauseum by someone, we reserve the right to censure. There's a big difference.

[kcbworth]

Stop agonising about competitiveness, it's an utter irrelevance and part of the Club's smoke and mirrors

Being better managed by 10% would be worth millions and millions.

Person with mind of his own get accused of being a sheep for errrrr... not being a sheep and agreeing with everything Graham believes shocker.

You should really cut that out mate.

Divisive at a time when a unified voice would be much more useful