Topic: European and World Champion and all round Big Man Joseph Dave Gomez

[duvva 💅]

I don't think it's 'knee jerk reactions' the flaws in Joe's game have been clear for a while. He does tend to ball watch and and fall back behind the back four line. He is not dominant in the air for a centre back, often simply jostling with his opponent than going for the clean header. Every player has weaknesses and Joe is no exception. He is only 23 so time to improve but for me Matip is the player I would like to partner VVD. He has a calmness about him and an ability to read the game which we could benefit from.

There were quite a few knee jerk reactions to Joe’s performance yesterday, considering he was the better of the two (him and VVD). Matip is excellent and I have no issue with him but right now Joe has the place and there was no reason in my view that that should change off the back of yesterday’s performance. Personally when all are at their best Gomez & VVD would be the two for me, but the margin between him and Matip is about as thick as a rizla.

[Morgana]

Got far too much stick for his performance yesterday. Despite being the better of our two centre backs, very little noise about VVD. Hardly the time for knee jerk reactions one game into the season. The way we play the defence and the midfield need to work together almost seamlessly. That takes time. He and VVD are the perfect CB pair and I’m sure we’ll be back to keeping clean sheets sooner rather than later.

When Virgil and Alisson fucked up versus Arsenal after restart there wasn't much fuss about that either, but if Joe puts a toe out of line he needs dropping and we need to sign a new CB ASAP. Incredibly irritating how he even gets lambasted when he plays better than Virgil.

Some fans just got their minds set against Joe Gomez, for whatever reason, and the penalty shout with England midweek didn't help his case either.  But for me, he's a top, top CB.

[number 168]

There were quite a few knee jerk reactions to Joe’s performance yesterday, considering he was the better of the two (him and VVD). Matip is excellent and I have no issue with him but right now Joe has the place and there was no reason in my view that that should change off the back of yesterday’s performance. Personally when all are at their best Gomez & VVD would be the two for me, but the margin between him and Matip is about as thick as a rizla.

Fair comment. I think Joe is a good  player and potentially a top player, but at the moment I think Matip will offer more. However Klopp will decide and I guess he sees Joe as the better choice.

[duvva 💅]

Fair comment. I think Joe is a good  player and potentially a top player, but at the moment I think Matip will offer more. However Klopp will decide and I guess he sees Joe as the better choice.

It’s Fuckin great having three of the best centre backs around in our squad. Think Joe was fit throughout most if not all of last season so if we can just keep Matip fit, I can see why they’re willing to go with just the three as the 4th won’t get much of a look in without injuries

[Morgana]

That kid Billy Koumetio looks a decent fourth choice, with Sepp van den Berg 5th.  No need to bring in a new top CB to sit on the bench grumpily and upset the team dynamic. I wouldn't buy Koulibaly even if we could afford him. A). because Virgil is better, and B). because Joe is learning from the very best and has more pace.

[duvva 💅]

That kid Billy Koumetio looks a decent fourth choice, with Sepp van den Berg 5th.  No need to bring in a new top CB to sit on the bench grumpily and upset the team dynamic. I wouldn't buy Koulibaly even if we could afford him. A). because Virgil is better, and B). because Joe is learning from the very best and has more pace.

I wouldn’t buy Koulibaly either because for one he’s 29, which as we all know is past it. And two he’d be the 4th best centre back at the club which given the cost would be mental.

[Lone Star Red]

I wouldn’t buy Koulibaly either because for one he’s 29, which as we all know is past it. And two he’d be the 4th best centre back at the club which given the cost would be mental.

[El Lobo]

I’m really not sure it’s that laughable. He’s certainly not as good as VVD. And I do think he’s over rated because he’s put in some good displays against us. Thinking Gomez and Matip are better than him isn’t particularly bizarre, certainly not enough for a anyway

[wige]

England's best centre half.

Brilliant for us as well, compliments Virg perfectly. Quick, strong in the tackle, decent in the air imo as well, not seen the problems others have raised. Maybe if you compare him to Virg he doesn't look as commanding, but then 90% of footballers in history don't.

Will be a mainstay of our team for the next 10 years I think.

[fowlermagic]

The issue on Saturday was Leeds took advantage of our midfield being to far forward thus leaving 15 yard gaps between lines that they just ran through. We were lucky they did not take full advantage of them as Joe & Virgil had runners coming at them way too often while our midfield lads were chasing tails. Surprised Jurgen did not change the onfield tactics a little quicker as I lost count how often Leeds had 3 v 3 or even 4 on 3 when they broke. Hats off to them as they know our full backs get forward and our holding midfielders are not the quickest on tracking back as both Hendo or Fab can be lagging at times. Gini & Keita are more likely to be camped in the attacking half. Just the way we play and honestly we cant be everywhere as Klopp requires 110% which is near nigh impossible.

[newterp]

On Leeds first goal - I thought it was just flat out unlucky - he made a brilliant covering run but somehow overran or missed the ball. A couple of time later in the game the announcers were starting to get excited about an outlet ball that a “speedy” Leeds player was going to run onto - only for Gomez to beat him there easily. He’s only 24 - he has so much upside as he continues to learn.

[number 168]

On Leeds first goal - I thought it was just flat out unlucky - he made a brilliant covering run but somehow overran or missed the ball. A couple of time later in the game the announcers were starting to get excited about an outlet ball that a “speedy” Leeds player was going to run onto - only for Gomez to beat him there easily. He’s only 24 - he has so much upside as he continues to learn.

Wasn't his 'covering run' because he was in no man's land? Despite having VVD and Matip to learn from his weaknesses of ball watching, losing his man and playing too deep (despite being very quick) are still there. If he can be coached out of these tendencies then he will be our centre half for years. If he can't then perhaps not.

[newterp]

Wasn't his 'covering run' because he was in no man's land? Despite having VVD and Matip to learn from his weaknesses of ball watching, losing his man and playing too deep (despite being very quick) are still there. If he can be coached out of these tendencies then he will be our centre half for years. If he can't then perhaps not.

He may have been in no mans land (I don't agree that he was - wasn't he part of the defensive line?) - but Trent is the one that was shockingly beaten on the play. Gomez was there a moment later to cover.

[killer-heels]

I don’t get the criticism. He was better than Van Dijk. Van Dijk was a bit all over the place and played his own game.

Second half he dominated the defence and Van Dijk took a back seat.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

I don’t get the criticism. He was better than Van Dijk. Van Dijk was a bit all over the place and played his own game.

Second half he dominated the defence and Van Dijk took a back seat.

Van Dijk has been far too casual ever since we won the league.

[Carra-ton]

He was good, apart from the partial error for the first goal. After the first goal he was superb really, many times covering runs for Trent and bringing the ball out from back which destroyed their man marking scheme.
Second half he was really good, and for the 3rd goal couldn't really do anything since he was 3 against 1 in the penalty box and the midfielder took a touch which he probably will never ever take in his life again.
Don't understand the criticism of Gomez. Alisson and Van Dijk need to take most of the blame for the game. Alisson needed to save atleast one of the three goals given his general saving.

[Yorkykopite]

Odd to say after conceding three but Gomez had a superb game. His speed, both on and off the ball, is surreal. And particularly in the second half he repeatedly broke Leeds's lines by moving forward with the ball at pace. But for Salah he'd have been Man of the Match.

[xbugawugax]

does nothing wrong yet gets blamed

think joe have been a scapegoat for a lot of problems so far.

we finally have a replacement for lovren. Joe "lovren" gomez

[JackWard33]

His speed, both on and off the ball, is surreal.

This is impossible to measure of course but in the flesh - as opposed to on tv - he's one of the quickest players I've seen when at full sprint - he's obscenely quick

[Yorkykopite]

This is impossible to measure of course but in the flesh - as opposed to on tv - he's one of the quickest players I've seen when at full sprint - he's obscenely quick

just as important he has the courage to move between two opponents when he has the ball. This remains a rare skill for centre backs. When Liverpool are still chasing three points Gomez does it regularly. Leeds must have known how he was bullying them with the ball on Saturday. We call Virgil the "complete" centre back, and he is our most important player, but he's nowhere near as proactive on the ball as Joe Gomez.

[Samie]

Virg hasn't accepted Big Joe's challenge to race over 100m still. 

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

just as important he has the courage to move between two opponents when he has the ball. This remains a rare skill for centre backs. When Liverpool are still chasing three points Gomez does it regularly. Leeds must have known how he was bullying them with the ball on Saturday. We call Virgil the "complete" centre back, and he is our most important player, but he's nowhere near as proactive on the ball as Joe Gomez.

He does this so often, and against teams that immediately drop into shape when we have the ball, which is 95% of them, its invaluable and opens the pitch up for us a bit more.

[Kadafi]

Gomez is the marmite of the team, he either gets over praised or overly criticised. Sometimes both. Case in point is just the last few comments.

From yesterday's game I felt Jo was excellent in bringing the ball out of defence, particularly in the second half and with Trent's struggles. On the flip side he could've done better with the 1st and 3rd goals.

Neither were exclusively nor mainly his fault, however he could've done better by making a challenge on the 1st rather than just trying to cut the ball - carrier off and on the 3rd he was too deep which helped create more room to run into. Despite this, the 3 midfielders should've backed one another up by picking up the late run into the box.

Jo can be passive and both he &Virg need to do a better job in communicating. They are both very gifted players and can let their gifts do the talking rather than sticking to some of the basics of defending that less-gifted defenders rely on.

[Yorkykopite]

He does this so often, and against teams that immediately drop into shape when we have the ball, which is 95% of them, its invaluable and opens the pitch up for us a bit more.

You bet he does. (I thought I'd continue with the overpraising of Gomez if that's ok with Colonel Kadafi). What I like even more is his ability to think ahead. More often than not the run with the ball culminates with a pass forward that also tries to break lines. There's nothing worse, in my book, than seeing a central defender move with the ball beyod two attackers only to offload a square pass to a full back, so bringing the two attackers straight back into the game.  I like to think of that as the 'Harry Maguire Move.'

[jillcwhomever]

Gomez has become the new Lovren sadly amongst some of our support. The Athletic is one of the worst places, fan after fan blaming it all on Gomez "the weak link"    Part of his problem is when he is partnered with Van Dijk very few will look to blame Virgil even if he makes a mistake. So, it just becomes easy to blame him for everything. He has the best recovery pace of any of our back line, and I really enjoyed the way he was bringing the ball out of defence, it wasn't happening as frequently as it needed to happen on Saturday.

[Kadafi]

You bet he does. (I thought I'd continue with the overpraising of Gomez if that's ok with Colonel Kadafi). What I like even more is his ability to think ahead. More often than not the run with the ball culminates with a pass forward that also tries to break lines. There's nothing worse, in my book, than seeing a central defender move with the ball beyod two attackers only to offload a square pass to a full back, so bringing the two attackers straight back into the game.  I like to think of that as the 'Harry Maguire Move.'

 

There's nothing wrong with praising him, I agree with what what most posters point out in terms of his abilities. However, he does similarly have legitimate weaknesses and areas that require improvement as pointed out by number 168.

BTW, I've not taken the name from Qaddafi/Gaddafi but I'll happily take being called colonel

[Samie]

Colonel back from the dead and on RAWK? Welcome Colonel. 

[duvva 💅]

There's nothing wrong with praising him, I agree with what what most posters point out in terms of his abilities. However, he does similarly have legitimate weaknesses and areas that require improvement as pointed out by number 168.

BTW, I've not taken the name from Qaddafi/Gaddafi but I'll happily take being called colonel

There’s very few players who can’t improve on some areas of their game and Joe’s no exception. He does however get far more criticism than he deserves for a young centre back who’s one of the best around already, so my comments were just by way of redressing the balance.

[Kadafi]

There’s very few players who can’t improve on some areas of their game and Joe’s no exception. He does however get far more criticism than he deserves for a young centre back who’s one of the best around already, so my comments were just by way of redressing the balance.

Looking through your comments there's very little I don't agree with, you made fair & valid points. The only one I'd disagree with is saying Koulibally would be 4th choice for us.

Colonel back from the dead and on RAWK? Welcome Colonel. 

Thanks, I promise not to attempt a coup in an attempt to establish authoritarian rule 

[kavah]

...
Thanks, I promise not to attempt a coup in an attempt to establish authoritarian rule 

 

[Ghost Town]

Thanks, I promise not to attempt a coup in an attempt to establish authoritarian rule 

Or break wind in the direction of John Simpson every few minutes?

[Dull Tools]

Ridiculous if he is getting criticism. Trent and VVD were much worse yesterday.

Have a read of this article and see how ridiculous the stats are with and without Gomez in the side. He's an unreal young defender.

https://www.planetfootball.com/quick-reads/comparing-liverpools-record-with-and-without-joe-gomez-at-cb-since-2018-19/

[duvva 💅]

Looking through your comments there's very little I don't agree with, you made fair & valid points. The only one I'd disagree with is saying Koulibally would be 4th choice for us.

You’re probably right, with Van Den Berg, Hoever and Koumetio coming through he might not even be 4th

[PoetryInMotion]

I don’t get the criticism. He was better than Van Dijk. Van Dijk was a bit all over the place and played his own game.

Second half he dominated the defence and Van Dijk took a back seat.

Van Dijk made 1 mistake. Gomez was all over the place. There was lack of communication between him and Trent for the 1st goal. He also broke the offside trap several times that put unnecessary pressure on our defense. Klopp himself said the gap between him and Van Dijk was too much for the 3rd goal. Van Dijk was in an okay position, while Gomez was too far to the right for a goal coming fro our left. He looked good when you only see his touches on the ball, but in terms of his general positioning off the ball, he was way off.

I like Gomez, but this was one of his worst displays for us.

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

You bet he does. (I thought I'd continue with the overpraising of Gomez if that's ok with Colonel Kadafi). What I like even more is his ability to think ahead. More often than not the run with the ball culminates with a pass forward that also tries to break lines. There's nothing worse, in my book, than seeing a central defender move with the ball beyod two attackers only to offload a square pass to a full back, so bringing the two attackers straight back into the game.  I like to think of that as the 'Harry Maguire Move.'

I know stylistically they are chalk and cheese, but that bringing the ball out and breaking lines reminds me of Hansen?

[Yorkykopite]

I know stylistically they are chalk and cheese, but that bringing the ball out and breaking lines reminds me of Hansen?

Hansen certainly, and a little bit of the Agger swagger too.

We are playing a ridiculously high line at the moment and I love it. The only reason we can even begin to think about playing this way is because we have the two quickest central defenders in the league. The recovery pace of both Virgil and Gomez is pretty astonishing. On two or three occasions at the weekend Leeds attackers gave up the chase because they realised they were in a race against Gomez especially. That doesn't happen if the defender is someone else. It wasn't just the fact that Gomez was going to beat them to the ball over the top. It was the fact that he was going to beat them so easily that he'd have the time to dictate what he wanted to do next when he got to the ball. 

But this high line was a tad more vulnerable to Leeds than it will be to most teams (both in the League and in Europe). They attacked us brilliantly with staggered runners off the ball and took risks with players getting beyond the ball that other teams rarely do when playing Liverpool. Trying to keep a straight defensive line with all that off-the-ball movement is not easy. This was especially so in, say, the third Leeds goal when - unusually for Liverpool's midfield - there was zero pressure on the man on the ball. I wouldn't be too eager to blame Gomez (or any other defender) for failing to maintain a straight back line under these exceptional circumstances. 

[King Kennys Pumas]

Do we ever really have a straight back line, with two progressive full backs in Trent and AR?.

It seemed to me the issue was lack of control in midfield, maybe because of early season/returning from injuries and internationals. I expect a similarly tricky game against Chelsea for similar reasons. Even then, the stats show we were pretty dominant (except for possession) against a Leeds team totally up for a fight. And we won.

[Yorkykopite]

Do we ever really have a straight back line, with two progressive full backs in Trent and AR?.

It seemed to me the issue was lack of control in midfield, maybe because of early season/returning from injuries and internationals. I expect a similarly tricky game against Chelsea for similar reasons. Even then, the stats show we were pretty dominant (except for possession) against a Leeds team totally up for a fight. And we won.

God I hope so!

You are probably right about the midfield though. Too slow when not in possession. Hendo in particular looked as if he hadn't had a pre-season. Things became much tighter when Fabinho and Jones came on to join Gini. Trent Alexander Arnold actually started to attack after that.

[Carra-ton]

Van Dijk made 1 mistake. Gomez was all over the place. There was lack of communication between him and Trent for the 1st goal. He also broke the offside trap several times that put unnecessary pressure on our defense. Klopp himself said the gap between him and Van Dijk was too much for the 3rd goal. Van Dijk was in an okay position, while Gomez was too far to the right for a goal coming fro our left. He looked good when you only see his touches on the ball, but in terms of his general positioning off the ball, he was way off.

I like Gomez, but this was one of his worst displays for us.

You are way wrong there, for example for the 3rd goal what was Van Dijk doing near the end of the box on the left side of the goal, when a cross from the player was coming in with 3 players making runs in the box. Gomez was outnumbered 3v1 in the keeper's box. Funny way to find criticism in that for Gomez. 2nd goal, can't even defend Van Dijk.
Also, the reason all our defence was all over the back line was because there were 6 runs being made behind the line once anyone tried to make a pass. Leeds were committing players ahead like crazy. It might work against other teams but Liverpool will keep attacking you. We would be wiser next time, but still don't expect a Leeds game to be a clean sheet if they have energy in their tank.

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

Hansen certainly, and a little bit of the Agger swagger too.

We are playing a ridiculously high line at the moment and I love it. The only reason we can even begin to think about playing this way is because we have the two quickest central defenders in the league. The recovery pace of both Virgil and Gomez is pretty astonishing. On two or three occasions at the weekend Leeds attackers gave up the chase because they realised they were in a race against Gomez especially. That doesn't happen if the defender is someone else. It wasn't just the fact that Gomez was going to beat them to the ball over the top. It was the fact that he was going to beat them so easily that he'd have the time to dictate what he wanted to do next when he got to the ball. 

But this high line was a tad more vulnerable to Leeds than it will be to most teams (both in the League and in Europe). They attacked us brilliantly with staggered runners off the ball and took risks with players getting beyond the ball that other teams rarely do when playing Liverpool. Trying to keep a straight defensive line with all that off-the-ball movement is not easy. This was especially so in, say, the third Leeds goal when - unusually for Liverpool's midfield - there was zero pressure on the man on the ball. I wouldn't be too eager to blame Gomez (or any other defender) for failing to maintain a straight back line under these exceptional circumstances.

Cheers for that, I'm not a great tactical expert so I admit I was a bit concerned about the line, but as you say the movement was unreal. But what a game of football though? So refreshing to see a team come and have a real go at us and I hope that others with less training try it.

One of the things I find funny about football is the trends and how other coaches try to replicate systems, but do it in a quick and dirty way without putting the work in. We saw it with Rafa's 4231, we are seeing it with pressing - pretty much everyone presses now, but are not as coordinated as us. I just hope that other coaches think they should have lots of runners against us because we will pick the least organised off with ease.