Author Topic: 'It's beyond the model': have Liverpool exposed the limits of xG?  (Read 10399 times)

Offline Andar

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There was just the faintest whiff of schadenfreude about it. A table had been published showing how the Premier League would have finished if it were decided by expected goals. “Look,” a colleague said, “according to xG Manchester City should have won the title by 13 points.” In fact, over the past two seasons, Liverpool should have had 39 points fewer. It pained the colleague to say it, but might Jürgen Klopp have exposed the limits of nerdery?

Seeking to show whether a given shot is a good chance, whether it should have gone in, xG is one of many metrics used in football analytics. It is, however, the first to move into the mainstream. It is featured (after the corner count) on Match of the Day, it pops up in analysis articles and is widespread on Twitter. It has also become a focal point in the debate about how far the magic of football can be distilled into numerical form. So when an xG league table looks so far off the real thing, people start asking questions.

It also provides a good excuse to talk with Ted Knutson, one of the most respected ambassadors for football analytics. An American and a former gambling professional, Knutson is best known for his work establishing Brentford’s analytics-based approach. It was a tough week for him in that regard (of which more later) but his explanation of Liverpool’s second-placed finish in the xG table is conciliatory towards those who don’t trust the data.

“You can put the difference down to having really great talent,” he says. “Having a great goalkeeper like Alisson will help you give up fewer goals. Part of it is a little bit of luck. But I think there’s stuff Liverpool do that’s not in the expected goals model.

“I’m not going to be specific about that but at a certain point when you have had the second and fourth-best Premier League seasons ever and the expected goals models don’t really reflect that, maybe you’ve got some stuff going on that is beyond the model.

“Part of [improving the model] is trying to make the data a bit better all the time to reflect that. City I think scored 102 goals and had 35 against but they were blowing out teams. They always keep their foot on the gas. The depth City had coming off the bench during the restart was just insane.

“Liverpool, as good as they are, they don’t have that. So they have learned over the last few years to be able to manage games. Once they get that second goal, especially, they defend well but probably don’t spend so much time exhausting themselves on the pressing side of it.

“I think those two things are reflected in that table. Liverpool do not always put their foot on the gas. But it’s also a little bit how the data and the models don’t reflect some of the edges that they have found and been able to exploit.”

Since xG went large – it first appeared on Match of the Day in 2017-18 – Knutson says there has been a more welcoming approach to analytics within club boardrooms. Knutson’s company, Statsbomb, consults with a number of clubs in the Premier League and several on the continent, including Paris St-Germain.

The issue now, says Knutson, is not scepticism of analytics but using it to make good decisions. “At club level it’s clearly difference in execution [that matters],” he says. “Some clubs are able to get things done and others end up mired in politics behind the scenes. The execution, even with better data, is what’s going to mark out the elite teams from those who are not. That’s really what separated Liverpool – they don’t make mistakes.”

One club characterised by a lack of mistakes, before their goalkeeper David Raya went walkabout in the play-off final at least, is Brentford. With promotion so narrowly missed, however, there will be questions over whether Thomas Frank’s eye-catching side can come again.

“I think the hardest thing for teams to do in football is rebuild, we have seen this over and over again,” Knutson says. “Brentford have sold stars since they first came up to the Championship but they still manage to keep getting better and keep aggregating value.

“They’ve also got a better coach and [as well as being the Championship’s top scorers], Brentford have been great in defence, even through the play-offs till that flukey, goofy goal. I think that they can rebuild, but it’s also the same question for the Leicesters and the Southamptons. Football is hard, transfers are hard. People don’t seem to respect that very much.”
« Last Edit: August 9, 2020, 05:49:57 pm by Andar »

Offline bornandbRED

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Re: 'It's beyond the model': have Liverpool exposed the limits of xG?
« Reply #1 on: August 9, 2020, 08:01:21 pm »
xG is inherently flawed in that it only takes into account so many variables.

The biggest flaw being the ignorance of ability of the individuals involved. A 1xG opportunity for Aguero is not the same for Dwight Gayle. Or when facing Allison vs facing Tom Heaton - but the model doesn’t take this into account.

There are many other intangibles to be considered too - environmental factors such as crowd influence, fitness etc. Footballers aren’t robots.

It’s a good tool but as with most statistics, one that requires heavy context to be truly useful.

Offline kavah

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Re: 'It's beyond the model': have Liverpool exposed the limits of xG?
« Reply #2 on: August 9, 2020, 08:05:15 pm »
^ And like is mentioned we have been very good at conserving energy once we go ahead.

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Re: 'It's beyond the model': have Liverpool exposed the limits of xG?
« Reply #3 on: August 9, 2020, 08:06:10 pm »
I'm sure some people will use this as a way to totally dismiss data and statistics, but really it's more of a confirmation of what the coaches at a club of our level will already know. This kind of analysis is to be used in conjunction with traditional methods, not in place of them.

Offline Iska

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Re: 'It's beyond the model': have Liverpool exposed the limits of xG?
« Reply #4 on: August 9, 2020, 08:10:14 pm »
That’s a good piece and reminds me of what I’d once understood xG to be about, but had completely lost sight of.  The value of it isn’t about using xG to test whether ‘actual G’ produced the right result - it’s about using xG to check whether your players/team are overperforming.  If they do it for a few weeks it might be a lucky streak, but if they keep doing it over several seasons, it’s because they’re brilliant.

Offline groove

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Re: 'It's beyond the model': have Liverpool exposed the limits of xG?
« Reply #5 on: August 9, 2020, 09:09:32 pm »
Michael Caley also taked about this on his Double Pivot podcast, and he was less sure that Liverpool are doing something that really 'breaks' xG to the extent we have this season. I do think we should be expected to outperform xG for the reasons Ted Knutson said. We have good finishers - Mane and Salah both finish 5-10% above their xG which puts them in the great, but not elite category of finishers. And Allison is excellent. Presumably, he 'saves' us a well above average xG conceded for a goalkeeper. This will make up a small portion of the difference, but not the huge gap we've seen between our points total and our expected points total.

The other factor is the game management angle. That we start fast, score and then play the game in a more controlled manner, not necesarily pushing for more xG. I think we just need a larger sample size to see if that really can play as big of a factor as some claim it does. Because I'm sceptical. Firstly, in all fields of human endeavour, we tend to underestimate just how much randomness is at play. We look at very small data sets and have an urge to make narrative-based assumptions before we see the longer term.

Secondly, it supposes that Pep Guardiola hasn't figured this out? That Klopp has some huge edge in his thinking that allows his teams to do this and Pep can't see it. And even further, that we can all see it, and Pep can't. As much as I'd love that to be true, I'm finding pretty hard to swallow. Considering City's points totals in their previous two seasons, it seem absurd to me.

So yeah, to my eyes, it looks like a season where we ran extremely well, and City absolutely did not.

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Re: 'It's beyond the model': have Liverpool exposed the limits of xG?
« Reply #6 on: August 9, 2020, 09:14:38 pm »
The stuff about us not making mistakes is totally spot on though. We are on an amazing run of nailing every single transfer we've made over the past 5-6 years and a lot of that will be that we just have a much more accurate barometer than our rivals for identifying who the actually effective footballers are.

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Re: 'It's beyond the model': have Liverpool exposed the limits of xG?
« Reply #7 on: August 9, 2020, 09:17:07 pm »
I think probably the biggest area in which xG fails is the way it lowers the probability of chances from wider positions. It makes sense to do so but doesn't account for the use of inverted forwards. Probably the best example is Thierry Henry whose trademark finish was pulling to the left channel and then bending the ball into the far post with his right foot. A low percentage chance for a left footer becomes a higher percentage chance for a right footer.

Both Mo and Sadio are extremely adept at that kind of finish.

We are also extremely efficient at creating the kind of chances that our forwards love to snap up.
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Re: 'It's beyond the model': have Liverpool exposed the limits of xG?
« Reply #8 on: August 9, 2020, 09:18:53 pm »
xG is full of shit mostly.

When you get grown arse men crying Liverpool weren't supposed to do what they did because a computer model tells them we shouldn't have done what we did.

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Re: 'It's beyond the model': have Liverpool exposed the limits of xG?
« Reply #9 on: August 9, 2020, 09:51:49 pm »
I saw someone talking about how great we are at XG2
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I have no idea what it was..
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Re: 'It's beyond the model': have Liverpool exposed the limits of xG?
« Reply #10 on: August 9, 2020, 10:07:05 pm »
xG is full of shit mostly.

When you get grown arse men crying Liverpool weren't supposed to do what they did because a computer model tells them we shouldn't have done what we did.

I thought that myself Samie, what kind of idiot thinks expected begins with the letter x. What is it statistics for dyslexics.
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Offline Samie

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Re: 'It's beyond the model': have Liverpool exposed the limits of xG?
« Reply #11 on: August 9, 2020, 10:09:23 pm »
 ;D

You got to get with the times old man.

Offline royhendo

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Re: 'It's beyond the model': have Liverpool exposed the limits of xG?
« Reply #12 on: August 9, 2020, 10:20:11 pm »
It’s pretty simple - we control game state. If we led a game, we closed it down and that translates into sprint volumes and pressure volumes as explained by Anfield Index this season.

So beyond a certain point, rattling up the XG difference is a waste of effort.
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Offline Lynndenberries

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Re: 'It's beyond the model': have Liverpool exposed the limits of xG?
« Reply #13 on: August 9, 2020, 10:30:23 pm »
It’s pretty simple - we control game state. If we led a game, we closed it down and that translates into sprint volumes and pressure volumes as explained by Anfield Index this season.

So beyond a certain point, rattling up the XG difference is a waste of effort.
This is it really. Expected goals in isolation can easily be misconstrued and doesn’t paint the whole picture. A week or two ago Dan Kennett posted a thread comparing our goal difference to City’s depending on whether we were winning, drawing, or losing. It’s not a surprise that we were equal or better than City when we were drawing or losing and they blew us away when they were winning. It’s obvious from watching our games that once we take the lead it is all about control. We rarely, if ever, run up the score on our opponents. Here’s the thread for those interested:

https://twitter.com/dankennett/status/1288450451671781376?s=21
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Re: 'It's beyond the model': have Liverpool exposed the limits of xG?
« Reply #14 on: August 9, 2020, 10:33:45 pm »
This excellent article points out the limits of relying too much on a computer model. It is the case in every sport these days. There is a human element that always needs to be factored in, and that is too often ignored by the stat geeks.
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Re: 'It's beyond the model': have Liverpool exposed the limits of xG?
« Reply #15 on: August 9, 2020, 11:12:13 pm »
I dunno, seems to me that maybe some people have misunderstood xG or expected it to signify things it was never meant to and so are now blowharding because it doesn't do the thing they mistakenly thought it did.

It's just a indicative stat to be used when it's pertinent and not when it isn't. If used that way I imagine occasions when it 'fails'' can be just as useful and revelatory as when events seem to conform to the stat.
« Last Edit: August 9, 2020, 11:14:55 pm by Ghost Town »
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Re: 'It's beyond the model': have Liverpool exposed the limits of xG?
« Reply #16 on: August 9, 2020, 11:22:10 pm »
Surely an easy fix would be to take in to account the quality of the person taking the shot and how good they are from that particular angle? Obviously somebody like Mane is gonna have a higher chance of scoring in the same situation than a lower level PL finisher. I believe Vardy is the PL player who most overachieves in terms of Xg to actual goals, which makes sense since he plays for a team that creates fewer chances and he has to be very clinical. Xg judges the quality of playmakers but doesn't account for better finishes.
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Offline Jake

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Re: 'It's beyond the model': have Liverpool exposed the limits of xG?
« Reply #17 on: August 9, 2020, 11:28:03 pm »
XG is boring. Just like VAR is boring.

This isn't FIFA/football manager - I'm not arsed about stats and stop-start pause the game. Just give me 11 red blokes (or ladies) kicking a bit of leather in the goal more than the others manage to do that.

Only stat that counts is the league table.
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Offline Redcap

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Re: 'It's beyond the model': have Liverpool exposed the limits of xG?
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2020, 03:02:52 am »
xG is full of shit mostly.

When you get grown arse men crying Liverpool weren't supposed to do what they did because a computer model tells them we shouldn't have done what we did.

It's not though. It's a more useful metric for performance than what was available before (shots for and against only).

The fact that it's not perfect doesn't mean it's 'full of shit'. It's a tool which good people are continuing to refine, and which will get better and better with time.

For example, the StatsBomb guys have just introduced a new element to their xG metric, which accounts for the height at which a shot is taken. e.g. a shot taken with the ball on the ground, is going to be more valuable than a shot skimming off the top of a player's head. This is the sort of imperfection that xG did not account for, but with refinement it will.

It may not matter to you, but within the quantitative approach are answers for better understanding performance, and for improving them. Our management understands this, and it's one of the reasons why we're as good as we are.

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Re: 'It's beyond the model': have Liverpool exposed the limits of xG?
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2020, 05:06:10 am »
It's not though. It's a more useful metric for performance than what was available before (shots for and against only).

The fact that it's not perfect doesn't mean it's 'full of shit'. It's a tool which good people are continuing to refine, and which will get better and better with time.

For example, the StatsBomb guys have just introduced a new element to their xG metric, which accounts for the height at which a shot is taken. e.g. a shot taken with the ball on the ground, is going to be more valuable than a shot skimming off the top of a player's head. This is the sort of imperfection that xG did not account for, but with refinement it will.

It may not matter to you, but within the quantitative approach are answers for better understanding performance, and for improving them. Our management understands this, and it's one of the reasons why we're as good as we are.
Yeh but jumpers for goalposts, isn't it? Wasn't it? Eleven men kicking a pig's bladder, small boys in the park, Stanley Matthews on a white horse, isn't it? Wasn't it? Bobby Moore? They think it's all over? Marvellous. Hurrah etc

The beauty of the quantitative approach is that it is entirely separate from the game itself and its Laws, and thus entirely optional. No-one who is uninterested needs to know a thing about it or care a jot about it; their non-interest will not affect their involvement, enjoyment or understanding of the game one iota. Whereas those who are interested can pursue that interest, again, separate from the game itself.

You'd think everyone would therefore be perfectly happy taking their own course, and leaving others to take theirs; live and let live etc.

You'd think...
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Offline Iska

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Re: 'It's beyond the model': have Liverpool exposed the limits of xG?
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2020, 07:04:13 am »
For example, the StatsBomb guys have just introduced a new element to their xG metric, which accounts for the height at which a shot is taken. e.g. a shot taken with the ball on the ground, is going to be more valuable than a shot skimming off the top of a player's head.
Lol, I had no idea xG didn’t adjust for this already.  Feels like it would be pretty useful information to take account of.

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Re: 'It's beyond the model': have Liverpool exposed the limits of xG?
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2020, 07:17:48 am »
^ And like is mentioned we have been very good at conserving energy once we go ahead.

I think we are also excellent at conserving energy before going ahead. A significant trait of the last two years has been the patience of the team when we are level, particularly against very defensive sides. We are able to play in first gear for about 80% of the game while continuing to exhaust the oppostition, then gradually turn the screw so that by around the 80' point a goal is almost inevitable. 

Offline royhendo

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Re: 'It's beyond the model': have Liverpool exposed the limits of xG?
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2020, 07:24:56 am »
This is it really. Expected goals in isolation can easily be misconstrued and doesn’t paint the whole picture. A week or two ago Dan Kennett posted a thread comparing our goal difference to City’s depending on whether we were winning, drawing, or losing. It’s not a surprise that we were equal or better than City when we were drawing or losing and they blew us away when they were winning. It’s obvious from watching our games that once we take the lead it is all about control. We rarely, if ever, run up the score on our opponents. Here’s the thread for those interested:

https://twitter.com/dankennett/status/1288450451671781376?s=21

It’s brilliant work this.
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Offline Redcap

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Re: 'It's beyond the model': have Liverpool exposed the limits of xG?
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2020, 08:00:37 am »
Yeh but jumpers for goalposts, isn't it? Wasn't it? Eleven men kicking a pig's bladder, small boys in the park, Stanley Matthews on a white horse, isn't it? Wasn't it? Bobby Moore? They think it's all over? Marvellous. Hurrah etc

The beauty of the quantitative approach is that it is entirely separate from the game itself and its Laws, and thus entirely optional. No-one who is uninterested needs to know a thing about it or care a jot about it; their non-interest will not affect their involvement, enjoyment or understanding of the game one iota. Whereas those who are interested can pursue that interest, again, separate from the game itself.

You'd think everyone would therefore be perfectly happy taking their own course, and leaving others to take theirs; live and let live etc.

You'd think...

I mean, clearly the people that are uninterested don't feel that way, anyway :P

Offline reddebs

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Re: 'It's beyond the model': have Liverpool exposed the limits of xG?
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2020, 08:18:14 am »
I dont think we've broken anything to be honest I think our analytics people use so many different stats and at a far more intricate level that the everyday stuff like xg doesn't explain why we are so far ahead of our competitors.

I've seen it said all season that we can't sustain outperforming our xg like we are and we'll eventually revert to the mean.  They assume that means we'll turn to shit whereas our mean is just far better than the xg stat says it should be.

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Offline Samie

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Re: 'It's beyond the model': have Liverpool exposed the limits of xG?
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2020, 09:30:55 am »
It's not though. It's a more useful metric for performance than what was available before (shots for and against only).

The fact that it's not perfect doesn't mean it's 'full of shit'. It's a tool which good people are continuing to refine, and which will get better and better with time.

For example, the StatsBomb guys have just introduced a new element to their xG metric, which accounts for the height at which a shot is taken. e.g. a shot taken with the ball on the ground, is going to be more valuable than a shot skimming off the top of a player's head. This is the sort of imperfection that xG did not account for, but with refinement it will.

It may not matter to you, but within the quantitative approach are answers for better understanding performance, and for improving them. Our management understands this, and it's one of the reasons why we're as good as we are.

Ah you sound like one of those men who would cry if our xG was #1 in everything and somehow we finished second.  :D

Like I said xG is MOSTLY shit, I never said it doesn't play a part.


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Re: 'It's beyond the model': have Liverpool exposed the limits of xG?
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2020, 09:44:46 am »
Surely an easy fix would be to take in to account the quality of the person taking the shot and how good they are from that particular angle? Obviously somebody like Mane is gonna have a higher chance of scoring in the same situation than a lower level PL finisher. I believe Vardy is the PL player who most overachieves in terms of Xg to actual goals, which makes sense since he plays for a team that creates fewer chances and he has to be very clinical. Xg judges the quality of playmakers but doesn't account for better finishes.

I may be wrong but surely xG is the equivalent of par in golf. It's what a good quality player should achieve on in a particular situation. Better players play under par, worse players play over par. You don't change par for a better golfer.
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Offline wige

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Re: 'It's beyond the model': have Liverpool exposed the limits of xG?
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2020, 09:51:20 am »
I may be wrong but surely xG is the equivalent of par in golf. It's what a good quality player should achieve on in a particular situation. Better players play under par, worse players play over par. You don't change par for a better golfer.

I'm really not that invested in a debate over this, but for devils advocacy reasons - isn't the argument basically to introduce a handicap? (continuing with your analaogy)

Offline Alan_X

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Re: 'It's beyond the model': have Liverpool exposed the limits of xG?
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2020, 09:54:11 am »
It’s brilliant work this.

It is, although it should be obvious when you look at City's results last season. There was a stat somewhere about the record number of times City scored four or more, but it was generally against weaker opposition (our game being the exception) and was typically a case of racking up the score in games that were already won. In contrast they often seemed to fold when they went behind, even to teams like Norwich.

Our way of playing requires exceptional levels of concentration, mental strength and physicality. It's where Henderson (Jordan not Roy) is such an important player for us and why I think City missed Kompany as a leader. 
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: 'It's beyond the model': have Liverpool exposed the limits of xG?
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2020, 09:56:22 am »
I'm really not that invested in a debate over this, but for devils advocacy reasons - isn't the argument basically to introduce a handicap? (continuing with your analaogy)

For club play yes - so that two players with different handicaps can play aganst each other 'competitively' but I'm talking about the elite level.
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Re: 'It's beyond the model': have Liverpool exposed the limits of xG?
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2020, 10:09:59 am »
I dunno, seems to me that maybe some people have misunderstood xG or expected it to signify things it was never meant to and so are now blowharding because it doesn't do the thing they mistakenly thought it did.

Quite. It's telling that the person who invented xG seems least surprised of anyone that it doesn't do what it wasn't meant to, and in fact seems quite sanguine about its limitations being exposed.

That doesn't mean it is useless, just that like any statistical modelling technique, it is only useful in the hands of people who understand how it works - and understand its limitations.

This is why my eyes glaze over when people start talking about "the numbers". It's so rarely someone who actually knows what they're talking about - and people are generally very good at exposing their own limitations in their attempts at statistical analysis.

I'm happy to stick to the good old-fashioned "we didn't take our chances and they did". That's the limit of my understanding and I won't pretend otherwise!
« Last Edit: August 10, 2020, 10:12:05 am by smutchin »

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Re: 'It's beyond the model': have Liverpool exposed the limits of xG?
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2020, 10:11:12 am »
It's not though. It's a more useful metric for performance than what was available before (shots for and against only).

The fact that it's not perfect doesn't mean it's 'full of shit'. It's a tool which good people are continuing to refine, and which will get better and better with time.

For example, the StatsBomb guys have just introduced a new element to their xG metric, which accounts for the height at which a shot is taken. e.g. a shot taken with the ball on the ground, is going to be more valuable than a shot skimming off the top of a player's head. This is the sort of imperfection that xG did not account for, but with refinement it will.

It may not matter to you, but within the quantitative approach are answers for better understanding performance, and for improving them. Our management understands this, and it's one of the reasons why we're as good as we are.

xG is essentially an analysis tool for identifying what has happened in the past. It's probably of little use to our coaches and players in identifying how to gain an advantage actually score goals.

All it will tell them is that they could have done better, or are exceeding the xG numbers. It doesn't tell them 'why'.

One of my favourite quotes is from the architect/engineer Pier Luigi Nervi who said that it's not about the calculations, it's how you use them.
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Re: 'It's beyond the model': have Liverpool exposed the limits of xG?
« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2020, 10:19:21 am »
For club play yes - so that two players with different handicaps can play aganst each other 'competitively' but I'm talking about the elite level.

I was thinking more across the board. Par remains the same for every hole, regardless of whether the golfer is a complete novice or Tiger Woods. Tiger's 'par' though is reduced by 28 accounting for his skill level.

To take it back to xG - I'd say the equivalent is something like - a penalty is 0.78 xg (a guess) but because the penalty taker is James Milner it's adjusted up because of an 'earned handicap/track record' and adjusted down because of the Keeper's record too. I'd imagine at the moment that every players track record is the reason the value is what it is for a penalty (Is it a static figure?! does it go up/down over seasons?). Would be the same for a shot from the edge taken by Messi as opposed to David Brooks. Messi has his -28 handicap applied, Brooks plays off 5...

Anyway, I think the wider point is that xG, whilst more evolved than shots on/off target, is still simplistic. That article that was linked via twitter is a perfect riposte. Shows that xG matters at certain game states, not across the course of 90 minutes and needs to be evaluated whilst looking at the opponents xG at the same times. If you're 2-1 up and your xG falls off a cliff that's fine - as long as the cause for that is a desire to reduce your opponents to nothing as well.

You have to imagine the collection of rocket scientists and doctorates that Liverpool have on their analysis books means we're looking at even greater detail.

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Re: 'It's beyond the model': have Liverpool exposed the limits of xG?
« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2020, 10:23:17 am »
It's not though. It's a more useful metric for performance than what was available before (shots for and against only).

The fact that it's not perfect doesn't mean it's 'full of shit'. It's a tool which good people are continuing to refine, and which will get better and better with time.

For example, the StatsBomb guys have just introduced a new element to their xG metric, which accounts for the height at which a shot is taken. e.g. a shot taken with the ball on the ground, is going to be more valuable than a shot skimming off the top of a player's head. This is the sort of imperfection that xG did not account for, but with refinement it will.

It may not matter to you, but within the quantitative approach are answers for better understanding performance, and for improving them. Our management understands this, and it's one of the reasons why we're as good as we are.

To understand performance and see where we have a potential to perform better, yes. The issue that I see is the way it is being commercialized. It is a nice way to understand performance and see who can improve us - on a game by game basis. But to use them every match day and see what the xG and xA is going to be without considering talent, motivation, tactics, fitness and other related influencing factors of both the teams is where I say the limitations of this system lie. And this is where we exposed the system for its limitations. It is not a shit. It is more of a backend tool than a frontend tool.

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Re: 'It's beyond the model': have Liverpool exposed the limits of xG?
« Reply #34 on: August 10, 2020, 11:58:34 am »
Adjusting for player finishing ability is being kinda overplayed here in terms of why we finished so far above our xG. There are only a few players who finish at a significantly elevated level, but really it's not even that high then. Lionel Messi scores about 15-20% more goals than you would expect him to when compare his xG to actual goals scored. And he's the best finisher in the world, he's the absolute top end as far as I know. Harry Kane is close. However, the vast majority of players score between +/- 5-10% of the average. Mane and Salah are in that bracket, on the positive end obviously. It's not like a good finisher has double the probabilty of scoring a shot over a bad one. They generally have just a 5-10% edge. The variance in finishing abilities are quite small.

It also assumes that we have, by far, the best finishers at the club than any other team in the land which is why we finished so far above xG and other teams didn't. Just not true.

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Re: 'It's beyond the model': have Liverpool exposed the limits of xG?
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2020, 12:50:30 pm »
This is it really. Expected goals in isolation can easily be misconstrued and doesn’t paint the whole picture. A week or two ago Dan Kennett posted a thread comparing our goal difference to City’s depending on whether we were winning, drawing, or losing. It’s not a surprise that we were equal or better than City when we were drawing or losing and they blew us away when they were winning. It’s obvious from watching our games that once we take the lead it is all about control. We rarely, if ever, run up the score on our opponents. Here’s the thread for those interested:

https://twitter.com/dankennett/status/1288450451671781376?s=21

Interesting this, thanks for posting. :thumbup
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Re: 'It's beyond the model': have Liverpool exposed the limits of xG?
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2020, 12:54:04 pm »
I've seen it said all season that we can't sustain outperforming our xg like we are and we'll eventually revert to the mean.  They assume that means we'll turn to shit whereas our mean is just far better than the xg stat says it should be.
I think it's just common sense.

If you look at City after two seasons of getting 198 pts it kinda made sense for them to have a bit of a dip, it's simply humanely impossible to maintain that level of intensity for two let alone 3 years in a row.

If we were to suffer a dip this season it won't mean we turned to shit but that maintaining this crazy level gets harder the longer it goes on.

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Re: 'It's beyond the model': have Liverpool exposed the limits of xG?
« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2020, 02:38:14 pm »
Ah "lies, damned lies and statistics"! Statistics will always tell you want you want to hear and believe. 

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Re: 'It's beyond the model': have Liverpool exposed the limits of xG?
« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2020, 03:22:41 pm »
xG is essentially an analysis tool for identifying what has happened in the past. It's probably of little use to our coaches and players in identifying how to gain an advantage actually score goals.

All it will tell them is that they could have done better, or are exceeding the xG numbers. It doesn't tell them 'why'.

One of my favourite quotes is from the architect/engineer Pier Luigi Nervi who said that it's not about the calculations, it's how you use them.
Exactly. People will point to City's xG difference and say they deserved the title without investigating why we ran away with it. I am a huge advocate of xG and statistics in general, but adding context is essential. This will always be the case, no matter how advanced statistics become.
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Re: 'It's beyond the model': have Liverpool exposed the limits of xG?
« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2020, 03:37:03 pm »
It is, although it should be obvious when you look at City's results last season. There was a stat somewhere about the record number of times City scored four or more, but it was generally against weaker opposition (our game being the exception) and was typically a case of racking up the score in games that were already won. In contrast they often seemed to fold when they went behind, even to teams like Norwich.

Our way of playing requires exceptional levels of concentration, mental strength and physicality. It's where Henderson (Jordan not Roy) is such an important player for us and why I think City missed Kompany as a leader.

Yeah - sorry Alan, I mean when Dan dives into heat mapping the defensive actions in the thirds based on game state season on season, what emerges is that it’s coached. We don’t do redundant things very often, I guess is the argument.

Haud on... less intensity when we’re winning, more when we’re tied or losing (volume and areas of pitch)





So we beat them on XG when it matters, but not when it doesn’t.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2020, 03:40:09 pm by royhendo »
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