Topic: John Henry & Liverpool's Evolution From Moneyball to Big-Spending Approach

[CraigDS]

Why has my username been changed to Penga ?

 

[rebel23]

Oh no, Al's here.  This thread is going to be locked

[penga]

Why has my username been changed to Penga ?

Great minds think alike 

[tubby]

Why has my username been changed to Penga ?

Haha.

[El Lobo]

You have been so whooshed.

I’m not so sure, read the lads other posts  Proper WUM

[kaesarsosei]

This isn't rocket science. Not all clubs, players and people are identical and everything has a context that needs to be considered before making sweeping generalisations about which trophy is better for which club.

99% of players, owners, managers would prefer to win the CL. Probably a slightly smaller percentage of fans overall would go along with that.

For a few clubs (eg Liverpool and right now I would even argue Man Utd), the players, managers and owners would all still prefer to win the CL but the fans have a much higher priority on the league. Due to context.

[Keita Success]

Would remove that link to Anfield HQ mate. They've been all over Twitter recently, called out by VVD and Robertson for posting shite and the owner of the page (Oliver Bond) has been outed to be working for The S*n.

That's not true.

Think it was something like he works for a company that also owns the rag. The Times is also one such example.

The guy's been harassed on Twitter by people who don't actually have any clue of the facts.

[Phil M]

The guy's been harassed on Twitter by people who don't actually have any clue of the facts.

Which facts?

[Keita Success]

Which facts?

This: he works for a company that also owns the rag. The Times is also one such example.

He doesn't write for The S*n.

Personally, I still wouldn't touch it, the Times or anything remotely associated with that paper, but others like Joyce aren't treated with the same hatred.

[penga]

I’m not so sure, read the lads other posts  Proper WUM

What posts? #Mbappe 2020 is happening, you're the WUM!

[Son of Spion]

Nah, disagree with him.

They let anyone into the Champions League these days, in terms of prestige it's somewhere between winning the League Cup and the FA Cup.

The only European trophy ever worth winning was the Cup Winners' Cup.

I didn't think anyone would bite, but you actually landed a few. 

Well done. 

[The Naby Keita fan club]

Get one top player on board John. cheers.

[J-Mc-]

Get one top player on board John. cheers.

He’s got 11, lets not be greedy.

[farawayred]

He’s got 11, lets not be greedy.

You don't think of Lallana and Chambo too highly, do you?

[moondog]

Nah, disagree with him.

They let anyone into the Champions League these days, in terms of prestige it's somewhere between winning the League Cup and the FA Cup.

The only European trophy ever worth winning was the Cup Winners' Cup.

You got a good haul there mate.

[jepovic]

I was in the FSG out camp, and though I still have some concerns over their ownership long-term and their ability to inject the squad with money from their own pockets when necessary; I think they have shown that they are going to be cutting edge in terms of hiring the best people for most jobs.
Their greatest achievement has been getting Klopp and for that they get full marks.

Too much is made of how much the owners put in or take out. Unless we're talking massive oil money, the sums are usually pretty limited for a big club anyway. The owners most important job, by far, is putting the right people in charge of running the club. This is where Uniteds owners have failed miserably compared with ours.

[Phil M]

This: he works for a company that also owns the rag. The Times is also one such example.

He doesn't write for The S*n.

Personally, I still wouldn't touch it, the Times or anything remotely associated with that paper, but others like Joyce aren't treated with the same hatred.

Fair enough, it's still the tabloid-y hyperbolic clickbait type of shite they push though as far as I can see.

[Red Beret]

We have the best owners in the league and are the best run club. I'd say Spurs are second.

Blood clubs who can buy anything don't count, but if it makes United feel better I'd say Chelsea are an even bigger shambles than they are.

[Jookie]

I was in the FSG out camp, and though I still have some concerns over their ownership long-term and their ability to inject the squad with money from their own pockets when necessary; I think they have shown that they are going to be cutting edge in terms of hiring the best people for most jobs.
Their greatest achievement has been getting Klopp and for that they get full marks.

The biggest concern with FSG shouldn't be anything to do with the playing squad or infrastructure they've put in place on the playing side of things. They've eventually, by luck or by design, ended up with great footballing brains at lots of levels of the club. They also don't take a penny from the club. They invest what we can afford in the playing side of things.

I think the only current valid criticism is around the expansion of the ground and the lack of clarity around this. That may be harsh and there might be plans formulating in the background to extend the Anfield Road End. However, until it's started then that will be my criticism of FSG. I think that would sit comfortably with any fan who tries to buy tickets on a semi-regular basis. If you don't fall into this category, for a variety of reasons, then I suspect ground extension doesn't bother you. But as a club and as a fanbase I think it's absolutely necessary and you could argue FSG could be more aggressive in their approach to getting us a capacity of +60k. Take advantage when we are on the crest of the wave. Much rather we did the ARE then buy a 70M player personally.

[Jookie]

We have the best owners in the league and are the best run club. I'd say Spurs are second.

Blood clubs who can buy anything don't count, but if it makes United feel better I'd say Chelsea are an even bigger shambles than they are.

I would argue Liverpool and Spurs are the best run clubs in the Top 6 not necessarily the league.

Leicester are well run when you look at the investment in infrastructure that club has seen. So are Brighton when you look where they were as a club about 10 years ago. Bournemouth too. There's probably other examples too.

[CraigDS]

This is the Spurs who just spent double the budget - a cool £1bn - on a new stadium that was plagued with problems and delays?

I wonder how many people would have been so understanding with our owners if the Main Stand came in at double the budgets and a season behind schedule.

[Barneylfc∗]

This: he works for a company that also owns the rag. The Times is also one such example.

He doesn't write for The S*n.

Personally, I still wouldn't touch it, the Times or anything remotely associated with that paper, but others like Joyce aren't treated with the same hatred.

He's still an absolute wanker though, surely you agree on that?

[Red Beret]

I would argue Liverpool and Spurs are the best run clubs in the Top 6 not necessarily the league.

Leicester are well run when you look at the investment in infrastructure that club has seen. So are Brighton when you look where they were as a club about 10 years ago. Bournemouth too. There's probably other examples too.

That's very true. That thought did actually pop into my mind as I made the post, thinking back to Southampton's excellent model.

There's competently run, well run, and best run, so it probably depends on where your  club naturally falls in the hierarchy. United at 6th is bad for them but would be excellent for Wolves.

As you say, we're best run in the top tier, especially given where we were.

[sms1986]

As you say, we're best run in the top tier, especially given where we were.

Easily, and we're going to see plenty of success in the next few seasons and beyond because of it.

[Red Beret]

This is the Spurs who just spent double the budget - a cool £1bn - on a new stadium that was plagued with problems and delays?

I wonder how many people would have been so understanding with our owners if the Main Stand came in at double the budgets and a season behind schedule.

In Spurs defence (yikes!) building new stadiums from scratch is never easy or cheap, especially in London. David Moores put LFC up for sale over the matter and we all know what happened there.

Wasn't the Hicks stadium supposed to cost around £350m?  That could easily have doubled.

[CraigDS]

In Spurs defence (yikes!) building new stadiums from scratch is never easy or cheap, especially in London. David Moores put LFC up for sale over the matter and we all know what happened there.

Wasn't the Hicks stadium supposed to cost around £350m?  That could easily have doubled.

I mean mentioning Moores and Hicks is hardly supporting Spurs being a well run club 

[Red Beret]

I mean mentioning Moores and Hicks is hardly supporting Spurs being a well run club 

My point was that the proof in how well managed Spurs are will be how they manage their finances, debt and remain competitive now that they have their stadium.  (See Arsenal.)



With bad owners and a dysfunctional club we didn't even get a stadium  - but we did shell out £60m on a design.

[CraigDS]

My point was that the proof in how well managed Spurs are will be how they manage their finances, debt and remain competitive now that they have their stadium.  (See Arsenal.)

With bad owners and a dysfunctional club we didn't even get a stadium  - but we did shell out £60m on a design.

Yeah but surely its a massive negative to spend double the budget to an eye shocking figure and be a year behind schedule? Regardless of what Hicks or Moores did or didn’t do. That doesn’t excuse Spurs.

It’s bizarre how forgiving some of our fans over that when if it was our owners I imagine they’d be calling for change - especially if it meant we didn’t spend a penny for multiple windows.

[The G in Gerrard]

FSG are good. Only problem is fan's expectations are ridiculous.

[Jookie]

Yeah but surely its a massive negative to spend double the budget to an eye shocking figure and be a year behind schedule? Regardless of what Hicks or Moores did or didn’t do. That doesn’t excuse Spurs.

It’s bizarre how forgiving some of our fans over that when if it was our owners I imagine they’d be calling for change - especially if it meant we didn’t spend a penny for multiple windows.

I don't know why Spurs stadium cost double what they expected upon initiation of the project.

How much of it should have been foreseen in terms of increasing costs? And how much of it was beyond Spurs control and due to cost escalations driven by external factors?

The above isn't a loaded question. I just don't know why costs spiralled so much but we've heard on other projects that costs have escalated due to unforeseen factors -  like price of steel increasing.

It's not just football clubs who get caught up in this type of spiralling costs and delayed timelines. There's loads of examples of much, much bigger companies than any football club in the World getting into this type of situation when building new facilities.

[CraigDS]

I don't know why Spurs stadium cost double what they expected upon initiation of the project.

How much of it should have been foreseen in terms of increasing costs? And how much of it was beyond Spurs control and due to cost escalations driven by external factors?

The above isn't a loaded question. I just don't know why costs spiralled so much but we've heard on other projects that costs have escalated due to unforeseen factors -  like price of steel increasing.

It's not just football clubs who get caught up in this type of spiralling costs and delayed timelines. There's loads of examples of much, much bigger companies than any football club in the World getting into this type of situation when building new facilities.

It’s likely a combination, however Levy had a massive hand in it too. I heard first hand from a contractor (family of my missus), and it was also reported in the papers, that Levy was constantly changing things that had been done, so they then had to be redone at both additional cost but also causing a massive delay to jobs which couldn’t be done until the other was finished.

Double the cost is pretty inexcusable though no matter what the reasons. We’d have rightly been up in arms if that happened here and part of the answer was to deny Klopp funds for multiple windows.

[Suareznumber7]

Why has my username been changed to Penga ?

hahahahaha . 

Post of the year

[Red Beret]

Yeah but surely its a massive negative to spend double the budget to an eye shocking figure and be a year behind schedule? Regardless of what Hicks or Moores did or didn’t do. That doesn’t excuse Spurs.

It’s bizarre how forgiving some of our fans over that when if it was our owners I imagine they’d be calling for change - especially if it meant we didn’t spend a penny for multiple windows.

It's true they've not spent in multiple windows, but they ARE spending now.  They recognise the need to remain competitive and in the CL slots in order to pay for their stadium; and even being CL runners up makes them a big draw.

If you compare them to Arsenal, who were at the top of the pile when the Emirates opened, Spurs are pragmatic enough to realise top two is a tall ask; but unlike Arsenal I don't think they'll sit back and do "just enough", as we can all see where that has led.

And I know people complain about the ARE, but really we got an extra 9,000 seats at a very reasonable price, and I'd rather prioritise squad investment for the coming season; pay off some more of the Main Stand and we can look to next summer on expanding further.  We need to keep up with City, and can't afford to stand still.

[CraigDS]

It's true they've not spent in multiple windows, but they ARE spending now.  They recognise the need to remain competitive and in the CL slots in order to pay for their stadium; and even being CL runners up makes them a big draw.

Remains to be seen what sales they will make to fund it.

If you compare them to Arsenal, who were at the top of the pile when the Emirates opened, Spurs are pragmatic enough to realise top two is a tall ask; but unlike Arsenal I don't think they'll sit back and do "just enough", as we can all see where that has led.

Well up to now they’ve hardly spent anything so I’d class that as ‘just enough’. Now if they don’t sell anyone this summer to fund the purchases then that may be different, but up to now it’s not really.

And I know people complain about the ARE, but really we got an extra 9,000 seats at a very reasonable price, and I'd rather prioritise squad investment for the coming season; pay off some more of the Main Stand and we can look to next summer on expanding further.  We need to keep up with City, and can't afford to stand still.

Totally agree. The way we’re doing it is great management, and we didn’t overrun on costs or time doing so.

[afc tukrish]

Totally agree. The way we’re doing it is great management, and we didn’t overrun on costs or time doing so.

Where's the cheese?

[GeorgiaRed]

FSG are good. Only problem is fan's expectations are ridiculous.

It's just a tough "customer base". 

[Bobinhood]

Where's the cheese?

There was no room. Everything full of Trophy's and Ancient Football Magic.


Missed marketing opportunity, obviously. FSG Out!

[ThePoolMan]

Now Spurs has finally bitten the bullet and invested in a big transfer to fill one of the obvious gaps in their team. We need to further strengthen the team with another world class player and capitalise on the momentum we have garnered and not sit on our laurels.

[killer-heels]

Now Spurs has finally bitten the bullet and invested in a big transfer to fill one of the obvious gaps in their team. We need to further strengthen the team with another world class player and capitalise on the momentum we have garnered and not sit on our laurels.

Spurs are not going to win the league. They are not a threat.

I actually hope the rest of the top 6 bar City get better. We need some teams able to take points off them as they have completely dominated the rest of the big 6 in their games in the last two years.

[ThePoolMan]

Spurs are not going to win the league. They are not a threat.

I actually hope the rest of the top 6 bar City get better. We need some teams able to take points off them as they have completely dominated the rest of the big 6 in their games in the last two years.

They were a threat in the games they played with us though they could not keep it up throughout the course of the season because of their lack of depth. They appear to be addressing that as well as improving themselves in one vital area at least. We need to keep the quality advantage vis a vis them by also investing in more world class quality.