Topic: Merseyrail - now with added 777

[Statto Red]

The new trains need to be run in before they can be handed over, they have to do 500 miles on the network; plus driver training, plus keeping the network running.

There's not enough room on the network to keep both sets of trains. I guess they're in a rotational cycle - new trains are delivered, placed on sidings; new trains that have been run in go live on the network,  and old stock is then scrapped.  Then new trains are brought up, and the stored trains start being run in - the cycle begins again.

It's frustratingly slow, so it's little wonder they're leaving Southport-Hunts Cross till last. They will want as many new trains and drivers ready to go as possible.

I can't believe this was the original plan. That said, the PR department is clearly full of shit.

Given how small the Merseyrail network is, & how busy it is [particularly over the core] it's not a surprise it's taking time to test all the units before they can enter service, & i'm not sure if all the 777s have been delivered yet either.

Remember, the row with the unions mostly over the use of guards was only settled back in January [the 777s should have entered service 2019/20], the original plan for the 777s was they were going to be driver only operated, so the unions protested over that decision.

[jillcwhomever]

I was back on the old ones today, feels like we only get the chance to ride on the new ones once a week.

[Red Beret]

Given how small the Merseyrail network is, & how busy it is [particularly over the core] it's not a surprise it's taking time to test all the units before they can enter service, & i'm not sure if all the 777s have been delivered yet either.

Remember, the row with the unions mostly over the use of guards was only settled back in January [the 777s should have entered service 2019/20], the original plan for the 777s was they were going to be driver only operated, so the unions protested over that decision.

I remember them showing off one of the new trains a couple years back at Birkenhead North, and the rep confidently assured me the plan was to first bring the 777s into service on the Wirral Line in one fell and not this piecemeal bs. They were either just straight up lying or just plain useless. 

I think the hourly Headbolt Lane service must be because they only have one BEMU in service. There are several battery trains up in Southport, but they must not have been run in yet, and that stretch of track from Kirkby is unelectrified

[Red Beret]

Just watching a random Merseyrail vlog on YT. I didn't even know the 777s were running on the Ellesmere Port line.

[Statto Red]

Headbolt Lane station has 3 platforms, P1 & P2 are for Merseyrail, P3 for Northern to Wigan & Manchester, when the service returns to every 15 minutes, & because of the single track section through Kirkby [i don't know why that wasn't doubled too] trains departing for Liverpool will have to wait until after a train arrives in from Liverpool [like what they do at Southport], trains will have something like around a 20 minute layover at Headbolt Lane.

Also, P3 has a different platform construction, this is if or when Merseyrail extends the service to Wigan, P3 can be removed, trains will then use P1 & P2 as through platforms.

[ChrisLFCKOP]

Just watching a random Merseyrail vlog on YT. I didn't even know the 777s were running on the Ellesmere Port line.

a few of the new trains where parked up at Rock Ferry Yesterday.

[rob1966]

Headbolt Lane station has 3 platforms, P1 & P2 are for Merseyrail, P3 for Northern to Wigan & Manchester, when the service returns to every 15 minutes, & because of the single track section through Kirkby [i don't know why that wasn't doubled too] trains departing for Liverpool will have to wait until after a train arrives in from Liverpool [like what they do at Southport], trains will have something like around a 20 minute layover at Headbolt Lane.

Also, P3 has a different platform construction, this is if or when Merseyrail extends the service to Wigan, P3 can be removed, trains will then use P1 & P2 as through platforms.

I used to play on the tracks as a kid and I'm pretty certain that the whole section of track from Kirkby to the points at Fazakerley runs right in the middle of the old track bed, I don't think the bridge over the M57 is actually wide enough for two tracks, I'm 99% sure its a dead narrow, single track bridge.

[Red Beret]

I used to play on the tracks as a kid and I'm pretty certain that the whole section of track from Kirkby to the points at Fazakerley runs right in the middle of the old track bed, I don't think the bridge over the M57 is actually wide enough for two tracks, I'm 99% sure its a dead narrow, single track bridge.

I just checked it out on googlemap and yeah, the bridge does look just a wee bit narrow for two tracks. Would perhaps need a second bridge running parallel. It's quite feasible, and may be done in the future, but it would have involved closing Kirkby station - probably for several months.

a few of the new trains where parked up at Rock Ferry Yesterday.

Yeah. I'd just not seen anything to suggest they were running on anything other than the New Brighton and West Kirby lines over on the Wirral.

[rob1966]

I just checked it out on googlemap and yeah, the bridge does look just a wee bit narrow for two tracks. Would perhaps need a second bridge running parallel. It's quite feasible, and may be done in the future, but it would have involved closing Kirkby station - probably for several months.

Yeah. I'd just not seen anything to suggest they were running on anything other than the New Brighton and West Kirby lines over on the Wirral.

I thought so - just done a streetview on the M57 and its indeed a single track bridge.

It used to be double tracks going through Kirkby, I was only 5 when the M57 was opened in about 1972, but I assume what they did was, as they had to raise the line to build the motorway and, as the plan was to electrify the track only as far as Kirkby and terminate there, ripped up and relaid the track from Kirkby to Fazakerley at the same time, they didn't think to future proof it and instead laid the track slap bang in the middle of the old tracks and went with a single track bridge over the M57.

It'd be a big job, as they need to replace the bridge, which they can do as they do this over motorways all the time, but also re-lay the whole existing section from Fazakerley to Kirkby to make room for the second track, build a new platform at Kirkby and access to it as the new (1970s) station never had 2 platforms and knock out the bit underneath the bridges where you walk from the old station to the new station.

[Red Beret]

I thought so - just done a streetview on the M57 and its indeed a single track bridge.

It used to be double tracks going through Kirkby, I was only 5 when the M57 was opened in about 1972, but I assume what they did was, as they had to raise the line to build the motorway and, as the plan was to electrify the track only as far as Kirkby and terminate there, ripped up and relaid the track from Kirkby to Fazakerley at the same time, they didn't think to future proof it and instead laid the track slap bang in the middle of the old tracks and went with a single track bridge over the M57.

It'd be a big job, as they need to replace the bridge, which they can do as they do this over motorways all the time, but also re-lay the whole existing section from Fazakerley to Kirkby to make room for the second track, build a new platform at Kirkby and access to it as the new (1970s) station never had 2 platforms and knock out the bit underneath the bridges where you walk from the old station to the new station.

I don't think they would have to replace the bridge over the M57 - they could just add a second single track bridge alongside the existing one. That said, they could have done that with the bridge over County Road, approaching Headbolt Lane, but opted to completely replace the bridge with a new twin-track one.

I imagine it's all about funding. Adding a second set of tracks in a few years will probably cost more in the long run, but they probably couldn't afford to do it all in one go. They've been talking about putting a station in at Headbolt longer than I've been alive - there are glaciers that move faster than that.

[rob1966]

I don't think they would have to replace the bridge over the M57 - they could just add a second single track bridge alongside the existing one. That said, they could have done that with the bridge over County Road, approaching Headbolt Lane, but opted to completely replace the bridge with a new twin-track one.

I imagine it's all about funding. Adding a second set of tracks in a few years will probably cost more in the long run, but they probably couldn't afford to do it all in one go. They've been talking about putting a station in at Headbolt longer than I've been alive - there are glaciers that move faster than that.

Yeah they could actually, just looking at google and its different than I remember. I always thought they'd moved the tracks, but they just ripped up one side, you can actually see where they were, they seemed to split far apart at Wango lane and it had two bridges. Starting to mis remember too much stuff now.

The County Road bridges are likely because the old bridges weren't strong enough to take the weight. I was about 8 I reckon when they redirected County Road under the new bridge, the old bridge will be probably a hundred years old or something like that

[Red Beret]

It looked like the original bridge over County Road was twin span, but they removed one when it became single track. When putting the second track back they opted to replace the whole bridge, which is probably sensible as the old one was probably due replacing anyway.

Re Wango Lane, yeah, you can see three bridges, but only the Kirkby one is still in use. The middle one was, as you say, likely also for Kirkby, and the tracks just split apart and rejoined further up. The third one is now part of the loop line cycle path, intersecting Barlow Lane. Stops just after crossing Warbreck Moor - looks like a housing estate erased the remains, but it previously linked up to the spur that once connected to Aintree Station from just before reaching Seaforth.

EDIT: now that I've had a third look, I'm less sure lol. I missed a stretch of track and the bridge is so overgrown it probably could handle two tracks at Wango Lane.  The bridge further up crossing The Alt can easily handle four tracks.

[c0burn]

The Southport Hunts Cross line is a miserable mess at the moment and has been for weeks. They now have so little of the old stock they're running 3 car services at peak times which to be honest has felt dangerous at times. Real sardines in a can.

[Oh Campione]

The Southport Hunts Cross line is a miserable mess at the moment and has been for weeks. They now have so little of the old stock they're running 3 car services at peak times which to be honest has felt dangerous at times. Real sardines in a can.

It has been digraceful recently - 3 car trains arriving at Waterloo are packed at peak times.  The trains are so full they are delayed getting into town as it takes people so long to squeeze on and off the trains

[courty61]

807 train from freshfield to town, 3 carriages not 6. Packed by the time the train got to formby.

Joke. These new trains were meant to be in by 2020.

Excuse after excuse after excuse

[mattyyt]

At least the old trains turn up! Still stuck with every 30 mins on Kirkby line and half of them seem to be cancelled every morning I try to take one to work.

I used to rave about how good Merseyrail was, they’ve been shite since the summer

[jillcwhomever]

Are the new trains still being used? I can't remember the last time I went on one. 

[So… Howard Philips]

Are the new trains still being used? I can't remember the last time I went on one. 

I was on one of the newbies from Central to Chester.

One slight drawback is that there is a bit of an incline going from the carriage to the ‘vestibule’ before the doors.

For the slightly pissed that can cause a problem.

[Statto Red]

I was on one of the newbies from Central to Chester.

One slight drawback is that there is a bit of an incline going from the carriage to the ‘vestibule’ before the doors.

For the slightly pissed that can cause a problem.

The seats are rock hard too [might as well have put a wooden benches in instead], the seats are really uncomfortable for any journey over 20 minutes.

The incline inside the carriage nearly caught me out too on one trip too, nearly went arse over.

[Red Beret]

Yeah, the ramps inside are a pain, but they help wheelchairs. I guess people will eventually get used to them.

Agree on the seats. I'm kind of hoping they feel a bit better once they've been worn in a little, or reupholstered at some point!

[LuverlyRita]

Yeah, the ramps inside are a pain, but they help wheelchairs. I guess people will eventually get used to them.

Agree on the seats. I'm kind of hoping they feel a bit better once they've been worn in a little, or reupholstered at some point!

I had a mix of trains going home from the match on Thursday and a wheelchair user happened to be next to me. When the first (new) train arrived at Sandhills, he needed no assistance. The old train on The Wirral Line was a different matter so the new trains make a massive difference to the disabled.

I also agree on the seats. They were a bit of a shock re. the lack of comfort. Perhaps the designers assumed that we're all sufficiently well uphostered in the rear these days to require no padding? I wouldn't fancy a long journey on them.

[So… Howard Philips]

Problems with the new trains don’t seem to be diminishing;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-67353857

[Red Beret]

Clearly the roll out should be halted until the issues are fixed.

[gazzalfc]

Was always a gamble making the trains run exclusively on battery power between Kirkby and Headbolt lane. Only takes one of those to fail for the entire line to fail.

It does hurt the ambition of having Merseyrail trains operate outside their 3rd rail electric system.

[Red Beret]

Was always a gamble making the trains run exclusively on battery power between Kirkby and Headbolt lane. Only takes one of those to fail for the entire line to fail.

It does hurt the ambition of having Merseyrail trains operate outside their 3rd rail electric system.

I'm less worried about the battery trains than how they're performing in general over the entire network. Seems everybody has a bad story about them.

Considering the measures taken to overhaul the lines - the power supplies, the running of the trains for testing and to bed them in etc - it seems they are really struggling.

I'm confident the issues will be ironed out, but Merseyrail can't afford to scrap anymore of the old stock until the new trains are running reliably. Everything, including the battery trains, were tested extensively and seemed to be doing well, but they've gone to shit since being in actual service. That suggests there's something they didn't plan for or anticipate. Like passengers, or something....

[Statto Red]

Chaos again on the Northern line, a 777 Ormskirk bound train seems to have developed a fault at Sandhills, so most of the Northern line is down until the unit can be moved.

[upthereds1993]

Chaos again on the Northern line, a 777 Ormskirk bound train seems to have developed a fault at Sandhills, so most of the Northern line is down until the unit can be moved.

These new trains are an absolute catastrophe. I've only rode on one the new ones once, load of young scallies pressed one of the emergency buttons as they were getting off, which resulted in an alarm being set off and the train coming to a halt for the best part of half an hour until they were able to sort out the fault / switch the alarm off. After it was finally sorted we were kicked off at the next station and told to wait another 10-15 minutes for the next train. Pretty minor inconvenience in the grand scheme but people having to go through this nonsense on a regular basis during their commute to / from work is a disgrace   

[Red Beret]

These new trains are an absolute catastrophe. I've only rode on one the once, load of young scallies pressed one of the emergency buttons as they were getting off, which resulted in an alarm being set off and the train coming to a halt for the best part of half an hour until they were able to sort out the fault / switch the alarm off. After it was finally sorted we were kicked off at the next station and told to wait another 10-15 minutes for the next train. Pretty minor inconvenience in the grand scheme but people having to go through this nonsense on a regular basis during their commute to / from work is a disgrace   

Outsiders would often snicker at how the old trains had their buttons plated over so only the conductor could operate them. This is a timely reminder why that's not such a bad idea.

And to think Merseyrail wanted these trains to be driver only.

[CornerFlag]

Possibly stupid question, but how much (guessing per mile) is laying third rail compared to how the battery packs of the 777s operate?  If they want to operate the Borderlands line from Bidston to Wrexham eventually, I can't see that being successful in any set-up with the way things are at the moment, it feels like at least some of the line needs to be electrified to make it happen.

[Red Beret]

Possibly stupid question, but how much (guessing per mile) is laying third rail compared to how the battery packs of the 777s operate?  If they want to operate the Borderlands line from Bidston to Wrexham eventually, I can't see that being successful in any set-up with the way things are at the moment, it feels like at least some of the line needs to be electrified to make it happen.

I've read a few articles on this. Ultimately, Merseyrail hopes to extend the network from Bidston to Wrexham, Ormskirk to Preston, and Headbolt Lane to Wigan Wallgate.

From what I've read, it's more a case that third rail has fallen out of favour from a safety standpoint. In future, rail electrification is most likely to be via overhead wires. The new trains are future proofed to be equipped with overhead pickups.

The batteries are supposed to be good for at least 20 miles; one suggestion was installing a fast charger system at Wrexham station for the 777s so they have a quick turnaround time, but that will degrade the batteries. 

If Merseyrail do get to expand the network that much then they're going to need more trains. They're not going to be able to maintain the current frequency with the fleet that they have. They do have an option for more, but there's a long way to go.

[gazzalfc]

Think the biggest issue with third line rail links are shorts caused by ice build up between the third rail and the main line.

They are very ambitious plans on paper. Especially so if Merseytravel takes control of the franchise from Merseyrail.

They still have a lot to get right before they start expanding. They need to get ticketing on par with the national standards (a phone or printed ticket actually counting on Merseyrail trains). Services that meet current demand. And a reliable track that doesn't cause 6 hour cancellations and replacement buses.

Most stations also need a facelift. Outside Moorfields is in horrible condition (though that is more a Liverpool council issue over Merseyrail).

I actually got off my arse this year and sorted out a car for the first time in years. First time in my current job that I'm not relying solely on trains for my commute. Its been nice to have the extra freedom when the trains go tits up. But I know I'm one of the lucky ones and that alot rely on the trains for everything

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Are the new trains still being used? I can't remember the last time I went on one. 

I've not even seen a new one yet

I go on the Hunts Cross to town Northern Line when I'm not going on Northern Rail to Lime Street

[Red Beret]

The majority of the new trains are on the Chester/Ellesmere Port line. I went on one for the first time a couple of weeks back.

EDIT: I think there's one apiece on the New Brighton and West Kirby lines, but Chester/EP is almost exclusively 777s. Only a couple of the old trains running on there. I didn't have a clue until my mate told me, she lives up by Bromborough.

[Statto Red]

777s have started on the Southport lines, & already things have gone belly up, & one service was not helped by a disruptive passenger.

[Statto Red]

Sounds like Merseyrail are finally getting into the 21st century

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/multi-million-cash-boost-tap-28309742

For those who don't want to read the awful Echo website

Almost £10m is to be invested to develop a new tap-and-go ticketing system for public transport across the Liverpool City Region.

Beginning on the Merseyrail network, a new app and ability to pay through contactless and mobile phone is to be developed after a multi-million pound boost from the combined authority. Signed off when it met for the last time before Christmas, leaders across Merseyside on the plan that they hope will be extended across the bus network.

Under the planned development, it is hoped commuters will be able to use the same card or ticket when travelling on buses, trains or ferries. It forms part of the Mayor’s ambition to construct a London-style integrated transport system for the Liverpool City Region.

The grant funding is being released from the Strategic Investment Fund’s ‘City Region Sustainable Transport Settlement’ (CRSTS). The financing will enable the future ability to introduce fare capping - ensuring that passengers always pay the cheapest possible fare.

As well as the introduction of a specialist app, an increased range of products would be incorporated across the MetroSmart Portal and additional tickets added to the MetroCard.

Metro Mayor Mr Rotheram said: “Travelling on public transport should be simple, especially when it comes to how people pay for their journey. Yet, the reality is that our current ticketing system is no longer equipped to meet the demands of a growing 21st century city region like ours.

“I understand people’s frustrations about the current system and that’s why we’ve been working towards introducing a more simplified ticketing structure, but increasing public demand has meant that we’re now accelerating our plans. By upgrading our current paper ticketing with a new and improved smart system, we can make it easier and quicker for people to get from A to B.

“The tap-and-go, contactless ticketing system I want to introduce will unlock so many benefits for our region, removing the need for unnecessary queues, and ensure that no one spends more than they need to get around our region. London shows how it can work well - and I want to build a similar system in our area that makes ticketing easier, quicker and cheaper and, most importantly, works in favour of passengers, not profit.”

Among the changes would include the introduction of dynamic QR codes as a new ticket type across the network, potentially for Tap & Go travel and replacement of paper day tickets. Card virtualisation could also eventually remove the need for plastic cards.

A date has not been set for the introduction of the scheme.

[So… Howard Philips]

“A date has not been set for the introduction of the scheme”.

[gazzalfc]

Walrus

Metro card

Tap and go system that still isn't linked to the national network..... So you still need to collect paper tickets to be able to legally use their trains

[swoopy]

Tap and go will be great when finally introduced. Fare capping across the network regardless of method of transport. No need to get tickets etc. etc.

[ToneLa]

Tap and go will be great when finally introduced. Fare capping across the network regardless of method of transport. No need to get tickets etc. etc.

if it's London Tube style should be pretty ace

[John_P]

Genuinely shocking, I still have a paper trio pass. I remember when I first got one they had signs up about changing to another system and that was over a decade ago now.

Even in Blackpool on the trams you can buy e-tickets via an app which you then activate when you get on the tram. Amazing that merseyrail don't have something like that.