Topic: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General

[4pool]

The best Coote moment was when he blows the whistle facing the Kop with players around him. He turns around, sees a Brighton player on the ground, and gives them a free kick when he originally gave us a free kick.

[redgriffin73]

to be fair it was a corner but have to wonder if that was Tierney giving him advice with is not how the game should be reffed.

to be honest the most bizarre thing was the corner we had and he was worried about balls behind the goal for some weird reason.

I'd forgotten that, what the fuck was that all about, he suddenly just had to go and collect up all the spare balls himself for some wild reason

[The G in Gerrard]

Dermot's in the studio and I'm off work. Should I really watch?

Wasn't anything of any note.

Gordon was offside for first Newcastle penalty but the law states the West Ham player played the ball so it is a penalty.
Diaz was offside.
Burnley player shouldn't have been sent off or a penalty given against Chelsea.

[GreatEx]

Did they discuss the second Saudi penalty?

[ChrisLFCKOP]

I'd forgotten that, what the fuck was that all about, he suddenly just had to go and collect up all the spare balls himself for some wild reason

Who knows, even the players looked confused.

[The G in Gerrard]

Did they discuss the second Saudi penalty?

Yep Dermott thought it was a penalty.

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/13105945/ref-watch-burnley-on-wrong-end-of-incorrect-penalty-and-red-card-decision-while-evertons-dominic-calvert-lewin-should-have-had-a-spot-kick

[M7 Heckler]

Gordon cheated 2 pens out of the ref and the imbecile on VAR couldn’t get his head round it. Both pens were fouls on the defender.

Your var ref for the game? Coote.

[M7 Heckler]

Remember the one Spurs got against us a few years ago at Anfield? Was it Lamela on Virgil? Virgil didn’t have a clue, he was trying to clear the ball and he even tried to pull out, think he might have tapped Lamela’s calf (even that was debatable) and they still gave the penalty.

Yes lamela the cnut. The cheaty-pen that cancelled out mo’s worldie.

Remember sadio winning one in the same way too.

[meady1981]

Just seen the Phillips penalty.
Fuck me, I honestly think that’s the worst decision I’ve seen all season.

[clinical]

https://twitter.com/NikkiMc11/status/1774785721921872144?t=Fs-BjGunIvXRALXDGpXX0g&s=19


Absolutely mad stat this. Refs hate us

[rob1966]

Just seen the Phillips penalty.
Fuck me, I honestly think that’s the worst decision I’ve seen all season.

Penalty according to everyone on Ref Watch this morning

[rob1966]

Remember the one Spurs got against us a few years ago at Anfield? Was it Lamela on Virgil? Virgil didn’t have a clue, he was trying to clear the ball and he even tried to pull out, think he might have tapped Lamela’s calf (even that was debatable) and they still gave the penalty.

There have been some incredibly soft, shithouse penalties given over the years. Another one that reminds me a bit of is the one Welbeck got against us away at Brighton, think that was against Andy Robbo.

The lawmakers really need to have a think about the morality of some decisions and have a think about what they’re rewarding. The main reason I wanted VAR in all those years ago was to prevent penalties like the one they gave yesterday against West Ham. It is cheating in its purest form by Gordon and it’s probably a foul on Phillips if anything. Anywhere else if you get in front of a player kicking the ball without winning the ball it’s a foul, somehow because Gordon went flying with the theatrics the decision went his way. There needs to be something done about players who deliberately try to win penalties like that, he was never in possession of the ball.

Impressive bit of play acting






Same game Kane did this and that fat c*nt Jon Moss said he didn't see if Lovren touched the ball or not, but he was giving the penalty anyway. Kane missed, which is likely why Lamella got his.

[meady1981]

Penalty according to everyone on Ref Watch this morning

It’s like someone chasing you down in your car when you aren’t looking, diving under your wheels and you being done for murder.

[Barneylfc∗]

v Sheffield Utd

Ref: Stuart Attwell
4th official: Anthony Taylor
VAR: Chris Kavanagh

V Man Utd

Referee: Anthony Taylor.
Assistants: Gary Beswick, Adam Nunn.
Fourth official: Craig Pawson.
VAR: John Brooks.
Assistant VAR: Richard West.

[Elzar]

V Man Utd

Referee: Anthony Taylor.
Assistants: Tony Wilson, Mick Hucknall
Fourth official: Darren Ferguson
VAR: Steve Coogan
Assistant VAR: Stormzy

Terrible that.

[Peabee]

Terrible that.

Out of that lot, I'd have more faith in Stormzy.

[Peabee]

V Man Utd

Referee: Anthony Taylor.
Assistants: Gary Beswick, Adam Nunn.
Fourth official: Craig Pawson.
VAR: John Brooks.
Assistant VAR: Richard West.

We have a Shamen and a Nun...

[owens_2k]

Who knows, even the players looked confused.

Its to do with the goal line technology. Balls behind the goal can interfere with it.

[owens_2k]

Impressive bit of play acting






Same game Kane did this and that fat c*nt Jon Moss said he didn't see if Lovren touched the ball or not, but he was giving the penalty anyway. Kane missed, which is likely why Lamella got his.

Isn't that the famous John Moss game where he gave the penalty even though he said he wasnt sure if Lovren touched the ball.

[Paul JH]

Someone on Reddit ran the numbers of fouls for vs fouls against this season for teams in the top 5. We're a massive outlier and it's not even close.

Liverpool: 298 fouls for, 360 against= -62
Arsenal: 296 for, 267 against= +29
City: 293 for, 231 against= +62
Villa: 379 for, 327 against= +52
Spurs: 398 for, 320 against= +78

That's insane. But you know, there's nothing in it, and they don't institutionally hate us of course ... ahem ...

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Isn't that the famous John Moss game where he gave the penalty even though he said he wasnt sure if Lovren touched the ball.

Moss whistled and pointed straight to the spot before consulting with his assistant on the near side, and Smart wanted clarification as to whether the ball did indeed touch Lovren before reaching Kane, who would have been offside had it not.

Moss did not appear sure and consulted with fourth official Martin Atkinson via his mic, before immediately clarifying that he was awarding the penalty. Here is that conversation in full:

Smart: "All I need to know is, did Lovren touch the ball?"

Moss: "I don't know."

Smart: "If he's not touched the ball, it is offside, so you're chalking off the penalty. It has to be offside if Lovren has not touched the ball.

Christian Eriksen: "He did touch the ball."

Emre Can: "He didn't touch the ball."

Moss: "Just talk to me again."

Smart: "You know what I'm asking; I need to clarify, has Lovren touched the ball? If he has, it's a deliberate action and, therefore, it's a penalty. If he has not, it is offside.

Moss: "I have no idea whether Lovren touched the ball to be honest with you. Martin (Atkinson), have you got anything from TV? I'm giving the penalty."




Not corrupt that though.

[Black Bull Nova]

Someone on Reddit ran the numbers of fouls for vs fouls against this season for teams in the top 5. We're a massive outlier and it's not even close.

Liverpool: 298 fouls for, 360 against= -62
Arsenal: 296 for, 267 against= +29
City: 293 for, 231 against= +62
Villa: 379 for, 327 against= +52
Spurs: 398 for, 320 against= +78

But that's what has been given, remember the ones given and not given (incorrectly), e.g. Jota v Spurs (when he was booked)/MaCalister v City (Penalty). There are plenty of those to be added and taken away on our balance.

[Kalito]

Moss whistled and pointed straight to the spot before consulting with his assistant on the near side, and Smart wanted clarification as to whether the ball did indeed touch Lovren before reaching Kane, who would have been offside had it not.

Moss did not appear sure and consulted with fourth official Martin Atkinson via his mic, before immediately clarifying that he was awarding the penalty. Here is that conversation in full:

Smart: "All I need to know is, did Lovren touch the ball?"

Moss: "I don't know."

Smart: "If he's not touched the ball, it is offside, so you're chalking off the penalty. It has to be offside if Lovren has not touched the ball.

Christian Eriksen: "He did touch the ball."

Emre Can: "He didn't touch the ball."

Moss: "Just talk to me again."

Smart: "You know what I'm asking; I need to clarify, has Lovren touched the ball? If he has, it's a deliberate action and, therefore, it's a penalty. If he has not, it is offside.

Moss: "I have no idea whether Lovren touched the ball to be honest with you. Martin (Atkinson), have you got anything from TV? I'm giving the penalty."




Not corrupt that though.

That was fucking scandalous and the clip of that is still going around - how it's never been mentioned by those in the media (Sky Sports etc) is an even bigger scandal, for me.

He asks Martin can you check from the TV to verify and lino says you can't do that.

For me the emphasis should be on the bold bit from Smart.

But hey, no corruption. Just incompetent.

[Enders]

That was fucking scandalous and the clip of that is still going around - how it's never been mentioned by those in the media (Sky Sports etc) is an even bigger scandal, for me.

He asks Martin can you check from the TV to verify and lino says you can't do that.

For me the emphasis should be on the bold bit from Smart.

But hey, no corruption. Just incompetent.

No, you let it go...

[JRed]

Moss whistled and pointed straight to the spot before consulting with his assistant on the near side, and Smart wanted clarification as to whether the ball did indeed touch Lovren before reaching Kane, who would have been offside had it not.

Moss did not appear sure and consulted with fourth official Martin Atkinson via his mic, before immediately clarifying that he was awarding the penalty. Here is that conversation in full:

Smart: "All I need to know is, did Lovren touch the ball?"

Moss: "I don't know."

Smart: "If he's not touched the ball, it is offside, so you're chalking off the penalty. It has to be offside if Lovren has not touched the ball.

Christian Eriksen: "He did touch the ball."

Emre Can: "He didn't touch the ball."

Moss: "Just talk to me again."

Smart: "You know what I'm asking; I need to clarify, has Lovren touched the ball? If he has, it's a deliberate action and, therefore, it's a penalty. If he has not, it is offside.

Moss: "I have no idea whether Lovren touched the ball to be honest with you. Martin (Atkinson), have you got anything from TV? I'm giving the penalty."




Not corrupt that though.

Good old ‘onest mistake guvnor

[thejbs]

That was fucking scandalous and the clip of that is still going around - how it's never been mentioned by those in the media (Sky Sports etc) is an even bigger scandal, for me.

He asks Martin can you check from the TV to verify and lino says you can't do that.

For me the emphasis should be on the bold bit from Smart.

But hey, no corruption. Just incompetent.

This is really harsh. Don’t you know that PGMOL explained all this? That Moss actually reflected on it after the conversation with Smart and realised he did actually see lovren make contact. Atkinson said so. And he merely misspoke about the tv bit, realising it immediately.

[redtel]

Webb returned from working in the USA in 2022 taking up his role as head of PGMOL in Nov 22.

That is barely 18 months ago yet I would say his arrival has seen them get worse instead of better. They can operate with no governance which results in worsening standards and no fear about how their organisation looks from the outside.

Reminds me very much of some police forces we’ve seen in this country. No surprise considering his background. His tv appearances alone show he can manipulate the truth right before our eyes.

I can’t see anything changing for the better with Webb in charge. He knows he’s allowed possible conflict of interest to occur with referees trips to the Middle East but he’s unconcerned. Any manager or player who criticises anything is slapped with a fine so they carry on regardless.

The introduction of var was an opportunity to correct mistakes that can happen to referees dealing with a fast moving game often within a crowded area of the field. The help of a replay referee should have been seen as a way of improving. They view it as showing up their mistakes and have decided to back each other up as they could be the one making the mistake the next week. Webb has gone along with it which results in inconsistency of decisions from week to week.

[Zlen]

The way I see Webb and his tenure is that under Mike Riley, we all knew there was shit in the bucket, but it had settled on the bottom and it just stank a lot. Webb comes in and has to be seen as a reformer, so he goes hard at what he seem as reforming, pushing his minnows, organising things in such a way that they are cornered by the inevitability of VAR. The bucket is stirred now, not only does it stink ten times worse than before, we also see chunks floating and all sorts of dead things rising from the bottom - it's not a pretty sight.

[redtel]

The way I see Webb and his tenure is that under Mike Riley, we all knew there was shit in the bucket, but it had settled on the bottom and it just stank a lot. Webb comes in and has to be seen as a reformer, so he goes hard at what he seem as reforming, pushing his minnows, organising things in such a way that they are cornered by the inevitability of VAR. The bucket is stirred now, not only does it stink ten times worse than before, we also see chunks floating and all sorts of dead things rising from the bottom - it's not a pretty sight.

Very eloquently put 👍

[Fromola]

The way I see Webb and his tenure is that under Mike Riley, we all knew there was shit in the bucket, but it had settled on the bottom and it just stank a lot. Webb comes in and has to be seen as a reformer, so he goes hard at what he seem as reforming, pushing his minnows, organising things in such a way that they are cornered by the inevitability of VAR. The bucket is stirred now, not only does it stink ten times worse than before, we also see chunks floating and all sorts of dead things rising from the bottom - it's not a pretty sight.

I thought Webb was seen as continuity Riley but with better PR - i.e. smile on the telly with Carra and Nev or Michael Owen and cannily go through a few decisions which they can justify as 'cracking process that lads' to give the perception they have a modicum of clue what they're doing. What they needed though was root-and-branch reform. Webb was just sticking a plaster on the problems and now the wound is septic.

The two main problems they've got are the awful standards of their officials which VAR has sent further through the floor; and VAR which patently doesn't work but rather than cut their losses and they keep chasing their losses by giving it more and more streamlining.

[lobsterboy]

Someone on Reddit ran the numbers of fouls for vs fouls against this season for teams in the top 5. We're a massive outlier and it's not even close.

Liverpool: 298 fouls for, 360 against= -62
Arsenal: 296 for, 267 against= +29
City: 293 for, 231 against= +62
Villa: 379 for, 327 against= +52
Spurs: 398 for, 320 against= +78

No, it's just good old honest incompetence. Not bent at all.

[rafathegaffa83]

I thought Webb was seen as continuity Riley but with better PR - i.e. smile on the telly with Carra and Nev or Michael Owen and cannily go through a few decisions which they can justify as 'cracking process that lads' to give the perception they have a modicum of clue what they're doing. What they needed though was root-and-branch reform. Webb was just sticking a plaster on the problems and now the wound is septic.

Actual systemic reform can only come from a massive scandal like Calciopoli did in Italy, or from a third-party.  This (the PL) is an organization that turned a blind eye to financial mismanagement until the government threatened to impose a regulator and even then they lacked the sense to develop a codified system of punishments to avoid clubs spinning the very rules they've broken

[farawayred]

The way I see Webb and his tenure is that under Mike Riley, we all knew there was shit in the bucket, but it had settled on the bottom and it just stank a lot. Webb comes in and has to be seen as a reformer, so he goes hard at what he seem as reforming, pushing his minnows, organising things in such a way that they are cornered by the inevitability of VAR. The bucket is stirred now, not only does it stink ten times worse than before, we also see chunks floating and all sorts of dead things rising from the bottom - it's not a pretty sight.

Well put! But although there is little to disagree with the state of affairs, Riley and Webb may not be compatible. The VAR shit that was dumped rather after Riley (not exactly, but the early ears are always tame) and Webb has to deal with is the difference. Before there may have been an inch or two, but the VAR shit fills like half the bucket.  And the more they try to improve the process, the more catastrophic the improvement is, the more shit enters the bucket. It now feels like it's to the brim... Another difference is that Webb reintroduced the referees' assessment committee (dunno the exact term), that Riley eliminated. Has that worked well? Well, not necessarily, but it's there and some refs have lost games when they fucked up. And the last thing that would press Webb for action is the Independent Regulator. I hope...

Plus, we may win more PL titles under Webb (despite his PGMOL performances) then under Riley.

[GreatEx]

VARdy-loo!

[Dr Stu-Pid]

Someone on Reddit ran the numbers of fouls for vs fouls against this season for teams in the top 5. We're a massive outlier and it's not even close.

Liverpool: 298 fouls for, 360 against= -62
Arsenal: 296 for, 267 against= +29
City: 293 for, 231 against= +62
Villa: 379 for, 327 against= +52
Spurs: 398 for, 320 against= +78

I don't think that this table is the smoking gun that some of you seem to think it is.

Anyone that has watched us play this season must surely realise that we are probably the most aggressive in the league when it comes to counter pressing high up the pitch, which often leads to us giving away fouls. It really shouldn't be a surprise as a result that we are very high up the table when it comes to fouls conceded. Our opponents tend to be much more passive when we have possession, so we often have controlled possession with a lower chance of being fouled.

If you look at the data from FBRef below this seems to back it up. I'm using 'Attempted Challenges' ('Att' in the table) to show how often we engage the opponent, and 'OAtt' is the number of times that the opponent engages us. We are unsurprisingly top of the table when it comes to attempted challenges, and the fact that we attempt challenges more than our opponents results in us also fouling our opponents more than we are fouled. All of our top 6 rivals (with the exception of Utd) have the opposite trend when it comes to attempted challenges, and so they are fouled more than they concede fouls as a result.

[FBRef foul count seems to differ from the data quoted table above, but as it is measured the same for all clubs it shouldn't matter]

Team	Att	Fls	OAtt	Fld	Att - OAtt	Fld - Fls
Liverpool	590	360	517	311	-73	-49
Arsenal	407	287	445	313	38	26
Man City	341	240	516	320	175	80
Aston Villa	434	327	534	388	100	61
Tottenham	536	320	580	413	44	93
Man Utd	552	310	465	268	-87	-42

That's not to say that PGMOL aren't incompetent (they are), or that referees do not treat us more harshly than other teams (they potentially do), but looking purely at 'fouls for vs fouls against' really doesn't tell you anything without context.

[Ski]

Referees and VAR are doing so well that Dermot has now upgraded “good process” to “really good process” 🤣

[Gods_Left_Boot]

Couple of gems from the last few minutes of the first half. One of their players holds Gomez for literally 5 seconds to prevent a counter and he's not booked and at the end we had a free kick for 20 yards out but somehow we are given an "advantage" with the ball going back towards the centre circle, in the dying seconds of the half. Good PGMOL process.

[Crimson]

Why didn't VAR intervene with the assult on Konate? Fucking hell.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Why didn't VAR intervene with the assult on Konate? Fucking hell.

Because it was a really, really, really good process.

[Crimson]

Because it was a really, really, really good process.

Ah yea, my bad