Author Topic: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24  (Read 83105 times)

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #400 on: February 18, 2024, 07:25:36 pm »
Just thinking it would be easier to see how our fixtures compare to City and Arsenal if they were next to us in columns 2 and 3.
Would this help?


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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #401 on: February 18, 2024, 07:48:53 pm »
My Betfair referal code for anyone who wants it: R6K4MTAQM (You get a £25 free bet)

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #402 on: February 18, 2024, 10:46:38 pm »
Thanks Prof, that’s a nice looking update. Is it a pain to move the fixture columns around in the OP or is it simply a case of cut and insert it in a different place? Just thinking it would be easier to see how our fixtures compare to City and Arsenal if they were next to us in columns 2 and 3.
I'll see what i can do

The fixtures order changes a bit when matches are rearranged, so the op is never completely accurate at this stage.

The points won /lost summary shows the matches remaining quite well I think, so that alongside the fixtures in the op is probably a good way to use them.

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #403 on: February 18, 2024, 10:47:21 pm »
Would this help?
Even better.  I replied before seeing the new page  ;D

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #404 on: February 19, 2024, 08:10:04 am »
Don’t realise Brentford was plus 2?!
The benefit of them beating us last year  :D

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #405 on: February 19, 2024, 10:42:15 am »
Bar the past few weeks we’ve been at least +5 ahead of City since game week 14. Do feel it’s just a case of us winning all our home games now and it’ll be ours. We will all drop points in the away games but not enough to make up for our better home record should we do that.

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #406 on: February 19, 2024, 12:15:23 pm »
Not quite APLT but some stats based on points-per-game:

:D

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #407 on: February 19, 2024, 03:00:22 pm »
Interesting that Arsenal's remaining number is only slightly above ours when the consensus (including my own view) is that they have a much harder run in.

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #408 on: February 19, 2024, 04:17:34 pm »
Interesting that Arsenal's remaining number is only slightly above ours when the consensus (including my own view) is that they have a much harder run in.

I guess it's because it's an average. I think we tend to mentally write off any easy games as a guaranteed 3 points for teams going for the title (not unreasonable) and we only focus on the games you're more likely to actually drop points in.

If you do some clever maths with a threshold of difficulty to give a better representation of a title race run-in I think you basically end up with.... the APLT.

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #409 on: February 19, 2024, 07:22:35 pm »
Interesting that Arsenal's remaining number is only slightly above ours when the consensus (including my own view) is that they have a much harder run in.

They have City, Spurs, Brighton and Utd away with Villa, Newcastle and Chelsea at home whilst we just have City, Spurs and Brighton at home and Utd and Villa away. I know which set I’d rather have left! The APLT shows it as well and that we’ve done the groundwork in our aways already.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2024, 07:24:44 pm by stonecold_jpm »

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #410 on: February 19, 2024, 07:24:12 pm »
Interesting that Arsenal's remaining number is only slightly above ours when the consensus (including my own view) is that they have a much harder run in.

Of the remaining 13 games both sides have left to play, we actually have 9 that are against common opponents so it's probably not that surprising the opponent's PPG are similar - of the remaining four, that we don't have in common, we face West Ham, Palace, Fulham and Forest, whilst they face Chelsea, Newcastle, Bournemouth and Brentford. Clearly on paper theirs look more difficult (particularly Chelsea and Newcastle).

But crucially what the table fails to account for is whether games are home or away, which depending upon the sides involved can make a huge difference to the difficulty of any given fixture. Of those 4 non-common opponents, whilst Arsenal's looks tricker, they're all home games which you ultimately expect them to win, whilst 3 of ours are away. But probably more crucially, of the shared opponents we have left, a lot of the trickiest ones are away games for them - City, Spurs, United, Brighton and Wolves are all tough games for various reasons and whilst we are still to play all those sides too, they're all home games for us bar Utd.

For Arsenal, it'll be the City and Spurs away games that are pivotal really I think. I'd certainly rather be playing those fixtures at home, like we are.

EDIT: I think the above does actually factor in home/away PPG, but I definitely feel like some nuance is lost when you start averaging it out. There's a pretty huge difference between our remaining away games - City, Spurs, Utd, Brighton, Wolves and Sheffield is immeasurably harder than Villa, Utd, West Ham, Fulham, Forest and Everton. Both teams should win nearly all of their home games.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2024, 07:43:45 pm by Haggis36 »

Offline RJH

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #411 on: February 19, 2024, 09:01:23 pm »
One of the other issues of the PPG is that it doesn't take into account which opponents each team has already faced.
For instance, Luton (H) is a 0.85 ppg opponent for Liverpool, while Newcastle (H) is 0.92 ppg for Arsenal*
While Necastle have had some patchy form, I don't think people would rank those two so similarly in terms of difficulty.

Part of the reason is that Luton still have away games at 4 of the top 5, while Newcastle only have 1.
Luton's remaining away opponents average 1.94 ppg at home, while Newcastle's opponents average 1.42.
I would expect that by the end of the season those ppg stats will have diverged more - and if that was the last set of fixtures of the season, the difference in "ppg difficulty" would be greater.


The APLT is based on a full season of fixtures from the beginning, so the timing of fixtures isn't an issue. Though obviously the downside is that it ends up almost a whole season out of date by the end, and some teams can vary a fair bit year on year.





*I know Arsenal and LFC both have Luton at home, I was just comparing the next fixture for each.

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #412 on: February 19, 2024, 09:32:49 pm »
Interesting that Arsenal's remaining number is only slightly above ours when the consensus (including my own view) is that they have a much harder run in.

Their next 4 games are 0.9, which is keeping their overall number like ours…..after those 4, they will be nearer 1.6

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #413 on: February 20, 2024, 07:10:54 am »
Bar the past few weeks we’ve been at least +5 ahead of City since game week 14. Do feel it’s just a case of us winning all our home games now and it’ll be ours. We will all drop points in the away games but not enough to make up for our better home record should we do that.

ReThe +5 shows the importance of not getting  beat by city at home , it’s completely wiped out with a defeat . It’s one of the biggest home games for a long time

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #414 on: February 20, 2024, 08:09:20 am »
Question for The Prof:  If we look at previous years APLTs at end of Feb, how does the table relate to the final positions in the league that year?  Or to put it another way - Basically, are we likely winning this? 🙏😁

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #415 on: February 20, 2024, 11:15:07 am »
You can look at the final graphs for each season and look back along them to see what it was like.
I would say the short answer is still too close to call.

19/20 and 20/21 the title race was all but over at this point already.
22/23 Arsenal had a smaller gap and ended up falling away.
21/22 Liverpool almost but not quite pulled back a similar gap (6 pts).
18/19 City did pull back a similar gap (7 pts).









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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #416 on: February 20, 2024, 11:24:03 am »
That 18/19 one still hurts to this day.

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #417 on: February 20, 2024, 01:21:43 pm »
That 18/19 one still hurts to this day.

Yup, we played some of our most exciting football under Klopp that season.

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #418 on: February 20, 2024, 01:23:14 pm »
Yup, we played some of our most exciting football under Klopp that season.

I think that was actually our best season and best team even ahead of 2019/20. 97 points and a CL cannot be matched.

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #419 on: February 20, 2024, 01:32:24 pm »
I think that was actually our best season and best team even ahead of 2019/20. 97 points and a CL cannot be matched.

Yeah i totally agree - the consistency, the quality of football we played - we were free flowing and dynamic cutting teams apart. Real pace and power with intelligence.

Irrespective of the cheats, we had a fabulous season and some fantastic memories.

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #420 on: February 20, 2024, 04:25:09 pm »
You can look at the final graphs for each season and look back along them to see what it was like.
I would say the short answer is still too close to call.

19/20 and 20/21 the title race was all but over at this point already.
22/23 Arsenal had a smaller gap and ended up falling away.
21/22 Liverpool almost but not quite pulled back a similar gap (6 pts).
18/19 City did pull back a similar gap (7 pts).





Great answer 👍. Thanks for that. Was hoping for something a bit more conclusive. Ok. Back to  the anxiety of the run-in.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2024, 04:27:14 pm by vblfc »

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #421 on: February 21, 2024, 12:18:01 am »
To me those charts seem to indicate that if you are not within -1 of the 90 pt line at this point in the season you haven't gone on to win the title.

It's a small sample size of just 5 so I wouldn't be running down to the local betting shop, but it does offer quiet optimism.




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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #422 on: February 21, 2024, 10:50:09 am »
Indicates we aren’t likely to drop off by too much so City or Arsenal are gonna have to go on one hell of a winning run.

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #423 on: February 21, 2024, 11:03:36 am »
The Luton game might throw all this in the bin, but those charts show that from this point onwards the top two teams do not cross streams. Doesn't make me any less nervous as we love coming close and not winning the league somehow. :(
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #424 on: February 21, 2024, 02:36:23 pm »
Think it is all about playing par for us this season and then Arsenal or City have to pull something amazing out of the bag
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #425 on: February 21, 2024, 02:44:43 pm »
The Luton game might throw all this in the bin, but those charts show that from this point onwards the top two teams do not cross streams. Doesn't make me any less nervous as we love coming close and not winning the league somehow. :(

I see them crossing in three out of four charts after this point of the season? Or I’m completely misunderstanding you!
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #426 on: February 21, 2024, 02:46:18 pm »
Think it is all about playing par for us this season and then Arsenal or City have to pull something amazing out of the bag

Very much this. Although par includes a win against City at home doesn't it so in reality par would be extremely impressive given our injuries.

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #427 on: February 21, 2024, 03:01:19 pm »
I see them crossing in three out of four charts after this point of the season? Or I’m completely misunderstanding you!

Ah, I'm guessing the teams in position 1 and position 2 never changed places after this point of the season. But there may have been times Liverpool went above City and vice versa in those two knife edge seasons. But the team leading at this point went on to win it which is encouraging.
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #428 on: February 21, 2024, 03:42:53 pm »
Ah, I'm guessing the teams in position 1 and position 2 never changed places after this point of the season. But there may have been times Liverpool went above City and vice versa in those two knife edge seasons. But the team leading at this point went on to win it which is encouraging.

I really don't get your point.

In 2018-19 Liverpool were leading by 7 points after 25 games and went on to finish 2nd.
In 2021-22 City were leading by 6 points after 25 games only to get overtaken by Liverpool, although they did finally pip us by a point.
In 2022-23 Arsenal were leading by 3 points after 25 games and went on to finish 2nd.


If anything the history says that, unless there is already a massive gap of over 12 points like in 2019-20 and 2020-21, nothing is decided after 25 games and it's all still to play for.


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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #429 on: February 22, 2024, 11:38:28 am »
Points on the board are better than chasing points

And then there are Actual points minus Target points on the board

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #430 on: February 22, 2024, 12:13:04 pm »
Can we keep the results going? We've done well to carve our way given the injuries we've faced, but we're literally missing an entire first team of players, with big question marks over whether some of them will even feature again this season. And the league isn't our only competition.

It's not like we can play a "weakened" side in the League Cup. A weakened side is all we have left! And we still have some big teams left to play.
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #431 on: February 22, 2024, 12:16:00 pm »
Can we keep the results going? We've done well to carve our way given the injuries we've faced, but we're literally missing an entire first team of players, with big question marks over whether some of them will even feature again this season. And the league isn't our only competition.

It's not like we can play a "weakened" side in the League Cup. A weakened side is all we have left! And we still have some big teams left to play.

Its quite clear our position is false. At some point, probably starting at the City ground next week, we should see positive results stop abruptly.

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #432 on: February 22, 2024, 12:22:18 pm »
Its quite clear our position is false. At some point, probably starting at the City ground next week, we should see positive results stop abruptly.

I think you must have caught me because you're not serious right?

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #433 on: February 22, 2024, 12:27:46 pm »
I think you must have caught me because you're not serious right?

I certainly hope not.

But this is what happens. You raise a valid point of concern, and you get sarcasm in response.
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #434 on: February 22, 2024, 03:28:56 pm »
It used to be the cool thing on this thread to be sarcastic like this, so I think it's a joke
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #435 on: February 22, 2024, 03:30:38 pm »
I think you must have caught me because you're not serious right?

You clearly do not understand the concept of "mockers".

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #436 on: February 22, 2024, 08:41:21 pm »
It used to be the cool thing on this thread to be sarcastic like this, so I think it's a joke

Ah yes, of course!

My apologies. ;D
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #437 on: February 23, 2024, 08:36:21 am »
Yeah, all stats are meaningless until we have key players back. If we are top by March end and then have Alisson, Salah, Nunez, Szoboszlai, Trent, Curtis and Konate back and no new injuries then I will consider we are in a real challenge. Because we could very easily be out if we drop points given City's previous history of going on season ending runs.
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #438 on: February 26, 2024, 10:11:08 pm »





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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2023-24
« Reply #439 on: February 27, 2024, 01:58:48 am »
So for all of Arsenals great form, they’re only playing to par?
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