Topic: PL: Man Utd 2 vs 2 Liv Diaz 23’ Fernandes 50’ Mainoo 67’ Mo 84’

[spider-neil]

That game was like a cup game at lower league opposition. We were so much better than them yet it was clearly their biggest game of the season and they almost caused an upset. Our brainless attacking play really was worrying. Everyone making wrong decisions or just being shit.
Jota, where are you? We need you!

It's becoming a joke the amount of counter attacks we've squandered when we've vastly outnumbered the opposition defenders.

[Funky_Gibbons]

That game was like a cup game at lower league opposition. We were so much better than them yet it was clearly their biggest game of the season and they almost caused an upset. Our brainless attacking play really was worrying. Everyone making wrong decisions or just being shit.
Jota, where are you? We need you!

We've scored 5-goals against United in two games and haven't won once. We've conceded 6-goals against a team who are averaging 1.4 goals a game and are the 6th lowest scorers in the league.

How many goals do we need to score to win a game? Our in-game management in both games has been awful. 

[Shankly998]

These freak comical goals always seem to be us don't they? Kolo and Stevie in 13/14. Virg and Ali right when we were gaining control at the Emirates in a game that could've killed Arsenal off. Karius in the final. Jarell yesterday. An impressive rap sheet of fucking ourselves over in the most unlikely of ways. We don't like to make it easy for ourselves.

We're so liable to give the opposition a goal out of nothing it's very frustrating when it's due to our own lack of focus

[killer-heels]

We've scored 5-goals against United in two games and haven't won once. We've conceded 6-goals against a team who are averaging 1.4 goals a game and are the 6th lowest scorers in the league.

How many goals do we need to score to win a game? Our in-game management in both games has been awful. 

It has to be acknowledged that part of in game management is killing the game off. We have actually done well defensively since the international break and all of the goals conceded have either been great goals or a mistake. But that just illustrates that when you lead if you dont kill the game off you are always susceptible to a sucker punch.

[Funky_Gibbons]

It has to be acknowledged that part of in game management is killing the game off. We have actually done well defensively since the international break and all of the goals conceded have either been great goals or a mistake. But that just illustrates that when you lead if you dont kill the game off you are always susceptible to a sucker punch.

And part of game management is keeping things tight at the back and not giving away silly goals (it really wasn't a sucker punch). Arsenals defensive record this season has been superb, do you think they'd have let the leads slip that we have? They're xGA is 15 lower than ours, why can't we win games 1-0? We've have only done that once in the league and that was the last minute winner against Forest.

United did exactly what we knew they'd do, sit back and concede a lot of shots and try to hit us on the counter.

[killer-heels]

And part of game management is keeping things tight at the back and not giving away silly goals (it really wasn't a sucker punch). Arsenals defensive record this season has been superb, do you think they'd have let the leads slip that we have? They're xGA is 15 lower than ours, why can't we win games 1-0? We've have only done that once in the league and that was the last minute winner against Forest.

United did exactly what we knew they'd do, sit back and concede a lot of shots and try to hit us on the counter.

Arsenal havent been winning their games 1-0. They have gone multiple goals up and killed it, the weekend being an example. We have been fully control of our games since the break but have been sucker punched with some amazing finishes.

Look at our game against Arsenal. They batter us, only get one goal and we score a spawny equaliser. Our issue is we are not putting games to bed and that means we open ourselves up to pieces of luck and a footballer doing something amazing.

Arsenal in general are a better defensive team than us. They play with a level of control and thats their and City’s style, something which we only achieved once under Klopp and even then we were not as good as City. But in the last three games our issues have been our inability to finish the games off.

[JRed]

There was really no need for Kelleher to be so far out of his goal like that. I’m sure it’s not the case but both games at old Trafford have given the impression we thought we just needed to turn up to win. Attacking play was amateurish at times but defending wasn’t great either.
So frustrating as that could , and should, have been another 5-0 type game.

[Schmarn]

There was really no need for Kelleher to be so far out of his goal like that. I’m sure it’s not the case but both games at old Trafford have given the impression we thought we just needed to turn up to win. Attacking play was amateurish at times but defending wasn’t great either.
So frustrating as that could , and should, have been another 5-0 type game.

One aside. If Kelleher had got his fingertips to Bruno’s shot, he would have been off as he was outside the area. Good thing he didn’t.

I don’t blame his positioning though. Our high line requires the keeper to act as a sweeper. You obviously can’t then make the mistake that Quansah did. Jurgen is right though that that is not why we dropped points. It is absolutely on our poor finishing.

In that regard I don’t think it’s complacency. If anything they were trying too hard, were slightly frenetic and snatched at shots or made the wrong pass. There have been signs of this all season but usually we score enough to win. Think of the City and Arsenal home games or Brighton and Luton away.  As I said before there is an issue with Darwin and Diaz’s shooting. Their all round play is excellent but you don’t have trust that they will slot the ball in the corner, they just blast it. They’re young enough to improve on it.

One final observation. Before City’s sportswashing wrecked the league, drawing yesterday would have been an ordinary occurrence in a title race. You used to be able to lose 6 games and win the league. The fact we are talking about teams having to win every game is bonkers. True, but bonkers.

[meady1981]

Ruddy bloody football.

[spider-neil]

One aside. If Kelleher had got his fingertips to Bruno’s shot, he would have been off as he was outside the area. Good thing he didn’t.

I don’t blame his positioning though. Our high line requires the keeper to act as a sweeper. You obviously can’t then make the mistake that Quansah did. Jurgen is right though that that is not why we dropped points. It is absolutely on our poor finishing.

In that regard I don’t think it’s complacency. If anything they were trying too hard, were slightly frenetic and snatched at shots or made the wrong pass. There have been signs of this all season but usually we score enough to win. Think of the City and Arsenal home games or Brighton and Luton away.  As I said before there is an issue with Darwin and Diaz’s shooting. Their all round play is excellent but you don’t have trust that they will slot the ball in the corner, they just blast it. They’re young enough to improve on it.

One final observation. Before City’s sportswashing wrecked the league, drawing yesterday would have been an ordinary occurrence in a title race. You used to be able to lose 6 games and win the league. The fact we are talking about teams having to win every game is bonkers. True, but bonkers.

I'm more worried about Arsenal than City.

[Funky_Gibbons]

Arsenal havent been winning their games 1-0. They have gone multiple goals up and killed it, the weekend being an example. We have been fully control of our games since the break but have been sucker punched with some amazing finishes.

Look at our game against Arsenal. They batter us, only get one goal and we score a spawny equaliser. Our issue is we are not putting games to bed and that means we open ourselves up to pieces of luck and a footballer doing something amazing.

Arsenal in general are a better defensive team than us. They play with a level of control and thats their and City’s style, something which we only achieved once under Klopp and even then we were not as good as City. But in the last three games our issues have been our inability to finish the games off.

I wasn't claiming Arsenal do win games 1-0 (although they've done it five times this season to our once). Goal scoring hasn't been our issue this season, we're the leading scorers in Europe, we've scored more than Man City but we're conceding nearly a goal a game on average while outperforming our xGA by five goals.

We cannot deny we're far too open at the back at times and take too many risks.

[spider-neil]

Ruddy bloody football.

Good thing the game was on Sunday. It ruined one day rather than the entire weekend.

[TSC]

There was really no need for Kelleher to be so far out of his goal like that.

When we’re in comfortable possession in defence he always shows for a pass and when Quansah turned back inside he was maybe expecting a pass back.

[meady1981]

Good thing the game was on Sunday. It ruined one day rather than the entire weekend.

What game

[killer-heels]

I wasn't claiming Arsenal do win games 1-0 (although they've done it five times this season to our once). Goal scoring hasn't been our issue this season, we're the leading scorers in Europe, we've scored more than Man City but we're conceding nearly a goal a game on average while outperforming our xGA by five goals.

We cannot deny we're far too open at the back at times and take too many risks.

Its too simplistic to say we are the best scorers and that is it. I can totally understand if yesterday, we are winning 1-0, we then start giving up chances and concede. But we didn't, we got sucker punched by some great goals. We have to put teams to the sword and finish the games off.

We hardly gave up any chances to United yesterday.

[Chris~]

I wasn't claiming Arsenal do win games 1-0 (although they've done it five times this season to our once). Goal scoring hasn't been our issue this season, we're the leading scorers in Europe, we've scored more than Man City but we're conceding nearly a goal a game on average while outperforming our xGA by five goals.

We cannot deny we're far too open at the back at times and take too many risks.

We take risks because that's how we play though, even at our best we played a very high risk game,but had the athleticism across the pitch to really deny the counters. I think it's way to simplistic to just say be less open, after what 7 years of Klopp football we know that's not how we're going to play. I doubt we are where we are now if we had Arteta or Guardiola trying to be massively risk averse with the minutes played by the players this year. We're maximising what we can at the moment with a side that isn't as good as our best

[Redley]

There was really no need for Kelleher to be so far out of his goal like that. I’m sure it’s not the case but both games at old Trafford have given the impression we thought we just needed to turn up to win. Attacking play was amateurish at times but defending wasn’t great either.
So frustrating as that could , and should, have been another 5-0 type game.

No problem with his positioning....not sure on him trying to tip the ball from outside his area though! Straight red that and would have properly screwed us for the next few games

[Andy @ Allerton!]

We were shite. Terrible advert for the league. I kind of hope we and Arsenal fall off a cliff now and Manchester City win the next 50 in a row.

PGMOL have made the league boring. In the past you could have the odd bad result and still the league would be interesting.

Manchester City have already won yet another one and this league is fucking boring. Once a league is boring then people fuck it off and walk away.

[Funky_Gibbons]

Its too simplistic to say we are the best scorers and that is it. I can totally understand if yesterday, we are winning 1-0, we then start giving up chances and concede. But we didn't, we got sucker punched by some great goals. We have to put teams to the sword and finish the games off.

We hardly gave up any chances to United yesterday.

it's not too simplistic though, we've conceded 6-goals to a team who have scored fewer goals than Luton. We cannot expect to consistently score three or four goals a game in order to win, occassionally we need to step-up defensively.

[killer-heels]

it's not too simplistic though, we've conceded 6-goals to a team who have scored fewer goals than Luton. We cannot expect to consistently score three or four goals a game in order to win, occassionally we need to step-up defensively.

We do, but that doesnt encompass yesterday. Look at the goals since the international break, they are either amazing goals or in the case of Bradley’s og, a slice of really bad luck.

We were poor defensively against the likes of Forest, Burnley at home and at the turn of the year we went back into the mode of giving shite teams too many chances. But we have improved and going 2-0 up isnt an impossible ask of the attackers.

[Clint Eastwood]

The valid criticism of VAR is going to lose credibility because of the outrage caused by correct decisions. There has been an outpouring of grief from United fans about the penalty decision. People are sharing slow-motion replays of Wan-Bissaka clearly making contact and asking ‘WHERE IS THE CONTACT?’. If that’s not a penalty then I don’t know what a penalty is anymore.

VAR isn’t going to change if every legitimate complaint is diluted by stuff like this.

[Caps4444]

Arsenal havent been winning their games 1-0. They have gone multiple goals up and killed it, the weekend being an example. We have been fully control of our games since the break but have been sucker punched with some amazing finishes.

Look at our game against Arsenal. They batter us, only get one goal and we score a spawny equaliser. Our issue is we are not putting games to bed and that means we open ourselves up to pieces of luck and a footballer doing something amazing.

Arsenal in general are a better defensive team than us. They play with a level of control and thats their and City’s style, something which we only achieved once under Klopp and even then we were not as good as City. But in the last three games our issues have been our inability to finish the games off.

The stat that Sky bring up when we need a goal in the last 15 mins is interesting….we are way ahead of most teams which shows we score when we need to. But what is interesting is that Arsenal and City are not on the first page, just occurred to me that actually what it shows is that those 2 teams kill off games before the last 15 mins of the game and simply just manage the game out, while we are constantly needing to score in the last 15 mins to draw/win. This is fine but at some point it will catch us up, like it did yesterday, when we needed 2 to win.

[killer-heels]

The stat that Sky bring up when we need a goal in the last 15 mins is interesting….we are way ahead of most teams which shows we score when we need to. But what is interesting is that Arsenal and City are not on the first page, just occurred to me that actually what it shows is that those 2 teams kill off games before the last 15 mins of the game and simply just manage the game out, while we are constantly needing to score in the last 15 mins to draw/win. This is fine but at some point it will catch us up, like it did yesterday, when we needed 2 to win.

Its actually something thats been the case for a long time. There was always this belief that City win games easy and for us it takes a bit longer, even our best sides didnt run away with games. Thats just the way we play and I think that was a big reason why we signed Thiago, to up that level of control.

Now where FG is right is that you could say that those teams saw the games out and yes this side isnt as defensively solid. But if you look at our last three games in isolation, we have been really unlucky in terms of the goals we have conceded. The numbers we have put up defensively should not yield 4 goals against whilst the numbers we put up in attack warranted more.

Scoring a second goal is a fundamental aspect of controlling matches.

[Caston]

Has anything been said about why Konate was only on the bench?

Slight knock or just tactical etc?

[killer-heels]

Has anything been said about why Konate was only on the bench?

Slight knock or just tactical etc?

We are being careful with him most likely.

[Caps4444]

Yesterday was the first time since the first game of the season where we scored first and didn’t win.

[Caston]

We are being careful with him most likely.

Seems bizarre to start him against poor opposition in midweek then bench him for the United game, however well Quansah has done.

[Kashinoda]

There was really no need for Kelleher to be so far out of his goal like that. I’m sure it’s not the case but both games at old Trafford have given the impression we thought we just needed to turn up to win. Attacking play was amateurish at times but defending wasn’t great either.
So frustrating as that could , and should, have been another 5-0 type game.

Kelleher was in the correct position, he's making himself available for a pass which should have been taken.

[killer-heels]

Seems bizarre to start him against poor opposition in midweek then bench him for the United game, however well Quansah has done.

Its just the order of the games. We play him against Brighton then thats two games in 5 days after a match for France. The only option would have been to not play him against Brighton nor Sheffield United but is that then too long without a game?

[joezydudek]

We've done an amazing job to be where we are while having so many injuries, struggling to consistently take chances and having no real stability at the back.
We're not close to being the team we were in the title-winning season or even two seasons ago, but I don't suppose too many people expected us to be where we are at this time last season.
If we win the title it'll be Klopp's greatest achievement and wherever we finish we've done really well to pick ourselves up after last season.

[Caligula?]

The worst part of yesterday was that we all just knew that we'd find a way to let United back into it at half time. During 2018-20 we win that 1-0 and then reminisce about not winning it by a greater margin. At present we need at least a two goal lead to feel safe-ish  about a result, especially if we lead early. We just can't seem to see out or control games.

[Caston]

Its just the order of the games. We play him against Brighton then thats two games in 5 days after a match for France. The only option would have been to not play him against Brighton nor Sheffield United but is that then too long without a game?

Yeah I’m not really sure, I just find the managing of his minutes a bit strange. I know he has his injury issues but he’s our second best defender, but there’s probably more to it.

[redk84]

Alot of revisionism in history about Salah/Mane/Bobby going on....there were many games they were wasteful in front of goal also. Including against United over many seasons

Its true we do not blow teams away alot and rely on the last 30 minutes THIS season to really take the game away from opponents. But alot of that maybe because we use subs really well...Its worked. We dont suffocate teams like City and Arsenal but thats not how we play...
Our defence has to be rock solid and recently (in my minds eye) we have let in a few ridiculous goals due to error that are costly because the game state it puts us in is usually tricky forcing us to get the upper hand again. i.e we hardly seem to have a 2 goal advantage until the very end of games...

We didnt learn from the fa cup game after yesterday's showing...much like we didn't learn from the fa cup game vs arsenal where they could/should have been more than one goal up at half time, in the league game that followed. We almost did better, but ended up with 1 out of 6 points in those two games

Has anything been said about why Konate was only on the bench?

Slight knock or just tactical etc?

I'd like to know this too...because for the life of me i cant understand why he didnt play. If he could only do the one game in a week then why wasnt quansah playing against sheffield united instead? Both games we would have expected to have more of the ball and the threat was a pacy counter.

[Elzar]

Yeah I’m not really sure, I just find the managing of his minutes a bit strange. I know he has his injury issues but he’s our second best defender, but there’s probably more to it.

He got injured last time he did midweek and weekend game back to back, and I'm pretty sure he got a slight injury the time before he did that. Clearly they aren't very confident in his body.

[PaleBlueDot]

Seems bizarre to start him against poor opposition in midweek then bench him for the United game, however well Quansah has done.

Klopp is just that kind of guy that doesn't care unfortunately. Same reason he played against Sparta, got injured and missed the biggest game of the season in City.

You can bet he will start him against lower opposition midweek again knowing full well we have a gigantic difficult PL game in the weekend. You'd think by now it's obvious he's injury prone and should only play once a week.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Alot of revisionism in history about Salah/Mane/Bobby going on....there were many games they were wasteful in front of goal also. Including against United over many seasons

Its true we do not blow teams away alot and rely on the last 30 minutes THIS season to really take the game away from opponents. But alot of that maybe because we use subs really well...Its worked. We dont suffocate teams like City and Arsenal but thats not how we play...
Our defence has to be rock solid and recently (in my minds eye) we have let in a few ridiculous goals due to error that are costly because the game state it puts us in is usually tricky forcing us to get the upper hand again. i.e we hardly seem to have a 2 goal advantage until the very end of games...

We didnt learn from the fa cup game after yesterday's showing...much like we didn't learn from the fa cup game vs arsenal where they could/should have been more than one goal up at half time, in the league game that followed. We almost did better, but ended up with 1 out of 6 points in those two games

I'd like to know this too...because for the life of me i cant understand why he didnt play. If he could only do the one game in a week then why wasnt quansah playing against sheffield united instead? Both games we would have expected to have more of the ball and the threat was a pacy counter.

He had a career-ending shithouse tackle against him when we played Sheffield United

It was a miracle that he wasn't badly injured

[Draex]

it's not too simplistic though, we've conceded 6-goals to a team who have scored fewer goals than Luton. We cannot expect to consistently score three or four goals a game in order to win, occassionally we need to step-up defensively.

It starts from the front though, Van Dijk talked about this after the game, we went into panic mode when they scored and started forcing play all over, after their freak goal we gave up so many chances, leading to their 2nd goal. As you say its terrible ingame management.

Shit is going to happen, what you then can't let happen is what we did, which was conceed cheap posession due to forcing the play up field. We needed to be patiant, regain control, go through the phases and that starts with our forwards not losing the ball continually.

[robertobaggio37]

It was familiar up to a point, but this was the ridiculous extreme of it. It was absolutely crazy that we only scored one in the first half. It was a bit like the cup game, but with the halves reversed. Should've scored five in the first half and have it be over as a contest. The more we kept missing, the more obvious it became that it was going to cost us. United didn't deserve a point, but we didn't deserve more than that either - repeatedly braindead with the goal gaping.

Feel like there's not enough killer instinct in that front three.

[Ciara (with a capital "C")]

Really frustrating. Again with them.

I saw some chat after Brighton about people praising the midfield, and I was going to put it in the pre-match thread this week but didn't want to be accused of being a shithouse, but I do think the midfield is a big concern. No doubt at all that individually, they have all been brilliant but I think the balance is way off. The control isn't there for the duration of a game and I get that when you throw caution to the wind a bit like we do, we are going to push up but there were times 2-1 up against Brighton late on, that they are in possession inside our half and Endo and Mac are closer to their box than our own. Yesterday we saw that United just had to bypass our midfield and suddenly there are 5 players running at our defence - Fernandes and Garnacho were in that space between our midfield and attack and a better side would have had better results. The Sheffield United goal, our balance was completely lopsided too - by the time the guy on the right plays the ball in, Mac and Szobo are just about in shot.

Mac Allister has been brilliant - and in a myriad of roles, a holding 6 at times early on, a front-footed 6, an 8 etc... but we need to get the players around him set. I really like Szoboslai and can see what he will bring to the side - his pressing is brilliant and his legs yesterday to get us forward was so important but he needs to find consistency and output. Endo, we are all obssessed with what a bargain he is and how good he has looked but he's not the 'insurance policy' we think he is I don't believe and that's because of the set up around him - he can't cover all of those big gaps that appear himself.

Oddly, I do think Jones coming back will help bring that level of control we need to stay on top of games - especially if our forward line can't finish teams off.

But I have had concerns for a little while now with the midfield and I have been surprised Jurgen hasn't sorted it to be honest. I get chasing a winner in a cup game (I think) but 2-1 up against Brighton, 1-0 up v United is dangerous and could be the undoing of us in other games.

[Zimagic]

Lots of interesting takes on the match but I think the most realistic ones are those that think we just got a bit carried away in front of goal. Level heads and different decisions at the crucial moments would have seen us through, but it felt rushed and that we passed when we should have shot or vice/versa.... Just heads down football.

It's what we do so well: the passion, the speed, the chaos. Overwhelm oppponents and get the goals, except we didn't and it came back to bite us. If we're winning 2-0 or 3-0 in the first half and Quansah's error is just a wake-up call, not a springboard for a shitshow.

Whatever. It's done. Atalanta. Let's go again!