Topic: PL: Man Utd 2 vs 2 Liv Diaz 23’ Fernandes 50’ Mainoo 67’ Mo 84’

[Crosby Nick]

Wasn't there a mad game in the 90s where they went 3-0 up and we pulled them back with a Ruddock equaliser?

They were 3 up at Anfield inside about half an hour. Huge gulf in class. Then Clough smashed one in from distance and soon after got a second and it was 3-2 before half time. Second half more even and Ruddock equalised with about ten to go I think.

There was also the game late in 98/99 when again we were outclassed but came from 2-0 down with an equaliser from Ince. About two games to go and should have stopped them from winning the league but then Arsenal lost at Leeds in the 37th game.

[Funky_Gibbons]

They were 3 up at Anfield inside about half an hour. Huge gulf in class. Then Clough smashed one in from distance and soon after got a second and it was 3-2 before half time. Second half more even and Ruddock equalised with about ten to go I think.

There was also the game late in 98/99 when again we were outclassed but came from 2-0 down with an equaliser from Ince. About two games to go and should have stopped them from winning the league but then Arsenal lost at Leeds in the 37th game.

I remember Ruddock starting to run to celebrate but then started to hold his head as he's headbutted one of their defenders while scoring. If Ruddock went down, you knew it must have smarted.

[Son of Spion]

Wasn't there a mad game in the 90s where they went 3-0 up and we pulled them back with a Ruddock equaliser?

I came in from work and we were already 0-3 down. 

The comeback was epic. 😃

[GreatEx]

Really good post that and something i hadn't even considered. The thoughts of Adrian in goal for the next game gives me chills and it's highly possible we could have lost the game with 10 men.

From memory, our defending with 10 (or even 9) men earlier this season,  when we were given a joke red every other match, was exceptional. Easy to say with hindsight, but I reckon if we'd gone a man down while retaining a 1-0 lead against a team not enjoying a massive bounce from an undeserved equaliser, we'd have gone on to win comfortably. But yes, having Adrian in goal would make the home game against Palace a much tougher prospect.

[the_red_pill]

Fuck the stats off for a second.

Unlucky is someone slipping with the goal gaping.
Unlucky is running into a keeper having the game of his life and stopping goals that most keepers wouldn't stop.
Unlucky is officials making awful, game-changing decisions that rob you.

None of those things were the case yesterday.

Missing sitter after sitter, blowing 5 on 2 counter attacks, making awful decisions in the final third is NOT UNLUCKY. Fuck the idea of statistical variance. We didn’t blow that game because of luck. We got what we deserved for not smashing a team that was begging for it.

Absolutely mate.
I like Jack's reasoning and arguments. I enjoy his posts, BUT in this instance- I would have to disagree with him.

The problem with his take on this, or similar circumstances, is that it does not take into account anything other than being "unlucky".

Performing atrocious in front of goal- your focus is somewhere else instead of the game where it should be- "unlucky", cause the xG had us winning 5-0.
Being rusty, returning from injury, and as a result, you display excpetionally poor finishing- "unlucky", cause the xG.
Missing chance after chance, cause you've got the crowd on your back and you cannot pull yourself together- as is expected of you- "unlucky", cause the xG says we should've scored 6.
Being selfish and not passing to players in a better position and as a result, the team walks away with a draw or a loss, having scored 1 or none out of a host of chances- "unlucky", cause the xG suggests a heap of goals.

I agree. We stunk it out in front of goal, we weren't unlucky.

[MonsLibpool]

If it happens once, it's unlucky but not twice.

[Caps4444]

Really good post that and something i hadn't even considered. The thoughts of Adrian in goal for the next game gives me chills and it's highly possible we could have lost the game with 10 men.

I would have fancied us with 10 men. Low block. With pace to counter. Anyway just a thought.

[Caps4444]

If it happens once, it's unlucky but not twice.

We used to be amazing on fast counters v 1/2 defenders.

Mane and Firmino v West Ham, think similar v Brighton a few years back. This year, I don’t think we converted 1.

[killer-heels]

I dont actually think the two games against them were comparable. We didnt create that many good chances against them in the fa cup and they had better chances against us. This time around we carved them open but it was the final shot that let us down.

That Nunez chance where he should have squared it was actually a good counter, just the decision to shoot instead of passing was mad.

[Funky_Gibbons]

We used to be amazing on fast counters v 1/2 defenders.

Mane and Firmino v West Ham, think similar v Brighton a few years back. This year, I don’t think we converted 1.

We've scored the joint third (with Arsenal) counter attack goals. Brentford away wasn't that long ago.....

[the_red_pill]

If it happens once, it's unlucky but not twice.

Game starts..
You slip on your first chance- unlucky.
You hit the post from a deflection with your second, unlucky.
The keeper pulls a worldy on the 3rd chance, unlucky.
Someone kicks a beachball onto the pitch for the 4th chance and you hit the beachball on the way to goal, unlucky.
The opposition scores on their first chance in the meantime. (1-0) Unlucky
Ref wrongly disallows your goal that would have made it 1-1. Unlucky
You get one more chance, but fluff it.

No more chances and you ending up losing the game, because that really was unlucky. Nevermind the fluffed chance- you're allowed a fluffer from time to time. The unlucky chances far outweigh the fluffled one.

(Not missing chance after chance from no outside interference, all as a result of your execution in front of goal- some being 5-on-2s, etc...)

[Andy @ Allerton!]

If it happens once, it's unlucky but not twice.

Yep.

We were fucking shite. Absolutely fucked it up.

[Timbo's Goals]

Not a pleasant afternoon watching us struggle to win a game we dominated throughout.
How many of us have seen this against these over the years?

Man U did what they have been doing for more years than I care to recall. Winning games they didn’t deserve to win and often drawing after being under the cosh all match. See their previous two games against us this season for proof.

Call then jammy, call the goals they score flukes but they do have this knack of winning when all the signs are they are going to lose. Usually in big games, and this was our big game yesterday afternoon.

Just two examples I recall. FACup Final 1977 and CL Final 1999.

Here’s part of the report from the ‘77 final. Thanks to LFCHistory.net

Although Liverpol set off in character, carefully preparing their ground, they expanded into an attacking style far earlier than was expected. Manchester United began by looking better than at any time in their defeat by Southampton a year before but, surprisingly, it was doing what came unnaturally, defending, that formed a foundation for victory. Near the end of a first half of quite sufficient interest the feeling was that United were ill-equipped for the second when Liverpool could hardly fail to take the chances they were making. United had conceded midfield and were magnificently saved from a slaughter by the composure of Brian Greenhoff, Buchan and Albiston, the young replacement for Houston.

Five minutes after half time they scored after a Greenhoff back header fell to Pearson, we equalised through Case a minute later, only for a Macari shot to hit Greenhoff’s back and loop beyond Clemence three minutes later.
They had a five minute purple patch scoring two goals to our one with the winner the flukiest you’ll see.

We then missed more chances and our dreams of a treble were ruined in those five minutes as we did win our first European Cup four days later. The Guardian no less reported that Liverpool shaped the game to their satisfaction but two mistakes cost them and it slipped from their grasp.

The CL Final in ‘99 was an even more one sided affair. Bayern Munich could only score once despite many chances.
They were beaten 2-1 after Man Utd scored from two left wing corners in the three minutes of injury time. I’m sure others remember similar games.

We don’t play them again so it’s now in our court to win every game and see where it brings us.Key players coming back so we have every chance especially if we play as if it’s the last 15 minutes of the game from the start.

Great Post Tel. Good points about them and '77 was a horrible day that. United fans outnumbered us all over London. Everywhere you went you'd see Red scarves in distance thinking they were ours only to find they had that bar of black as you got closer. Still feel sick thinking about it and as for game we battered them but couldn't stick it away. Was in South Wales at time and on way back from Wembley we shared a train carriage with big John Toshack who like us couldn't quite fathom how we had lost.

Funny thing. A year or so later was in the Jolly Miller on Queens drive and Emlyn Hughes was there. We got chatting about Rome and that and got onto that United Final defeat. His take was that United deserved it and were the better team on day.  Ended up having a right argument with him and told him how great he was but that he was talking out of his arse. 

And as you say Tel, such fluky wins have definitely always been a trait with United in big games. And certainly in many against us, tho thank God we have won the odd few but nowhere near what we should have done. None more so than last Sunday.

[Timbo's Goals]

Absolutely mate.
I like Jack's reasoning and arguments. I enjoy his posts, BUT in this instance- I would have to disagree with him.

The problem with his take on this, or similar circumstances, is that it does not take into account anything other than being "unlucky".

Performing atrocious in front of goal- your focus is somewhere else instead of the game where it should be- "unlucky", cause the xG had us winning 5-0.
Being rusty, returning from injury, and as a result, you display excpetionally poor finishing- "unlucky", cause the xG.
Missing chance after chance, cause you've got the crowd on your back and you cannot pull yourself together- as is expected of you- "unlucky", cause the xG says we should've scored 6.
Being selfish and not passing to players in a better position and as a result, the team walks away with a draw or a loss, having scored 1 or none out of a host of chances- "unlucky", cause the xG suggests a heap of goals.

I agree. We stunk it out in front of goal, we weren't unlucky.

Agreed. Posted pretty much the same earlier in thread. One of most frustrating games ever. Real hair tearing out stuff. It was all down to our own profligacy. Nothing unlucky about it, although what I would say on the other hand is that it was yet another real fluky result for United in a game they should have lost by a bagful.