Topic: Defending Set Pieces

[spider-neil]

I think if Brendan can find a centre back combination that can consistently deal with defending set pieces he'll go out and buy one. Pity about Coates' ability in other aspects of his game because aerially he is very strong.

[Liverbird27]

Its not like it's Allen or Suarez making mistakes on set pieces (something I can almost forgive), but it seems like our CBs are at fault for most of them.

[ANFIELDGATES]

Its not like it's Allen or Suarez making mistakes on set pieces (something I can almost forgive), but it seems like our CBs are at fault for most of them.

out jumping your opponent at crosses or frree kicks is all about timing,get up early and u almost never lose that duel,skrtels problem is hes constantly looking at the attacking player,not the ball,at schoolboy level u teach kids to be whats called touch tight,meaning if they can touch the player then they are marking that player,thus allowing u to keep looking at the ball as it comes across.not so sure its coached at senior level but im afraid someone needs to start with our defence and teach them the basics again.

[richiedouglas]

Its not like it's Allen or Suarez making mistakes on set pieces (something I can almost forgive), but it seems like our CBs are at fault for most of them.

Very fair point. Skrtel, agger and Johnson have all been at fault from set pieces this year. They do however generally get their set piece danger men like kompany.

[mrantarctica]

It's not really. It's more like carrying a bucket of water, while spinning plates, on your way to a place with a big well, while balancing an expensive vase on your head. At some point you have to look at what takes priority - the plate spinning, the balancing act, or the bucket of water. You might get to a point where the plates are spinning themselves, and the plate is attached to your head through grime and sweat - at that point the bucket can be dealt with. Otherwise, you're always looking to what takes precedence. At this point in the season, perhaps Rodgers doesn't feel comfortable stepping away from the attacking work to deal with something that is an issue, but is far outweighed by the events of the rest of the game.

This is an excellent analogy, pretty much exactly what I was alluding to in my post. I think BR identified that there were some wholesale changes needed in the way that we approach the game. We had a big problem with scoring goals. This is evidenced by the fact that in the two seasons prior we only scored something in the vicinity of 40 goals. We've almost doubled that. Largely that change has coincided with the arrival of attacking players but also a gradual but noticeable change in the way we play. In this calendar year our GF:GA ratio is about 2:1 compared to 1.5:1 or less prior to Jan this year. Interestingly enough we concede about 40 goals a season which hasn't really changed a great deal which leads me to think that either our defending hasn't changed (no worse no better) or that we do defend better in certain circumstances but our attacking style simply leaves us open to conceding goals in others.

Only 1 question though... If you are walking towards a well, would your bucket not be empty? 

[Eeyore]

out jumping your opponent at crosses or frree kicks is all about timing,get up early and u almost never lose that duel,skrtels problem is hes constantly looking at the attacking player,not the ball,at schoolboy level u teach kids to be whats called touch tight,meaning if they can touch the player then they are marking that player,thus allowing u to keep looking at the ball as it comes across.not so sure its coached at senior level but im afraid someone needs to start with our defence and teach them the basics again.

Corners played into the near post aren't about out jumping your opponent when you are marking man to man though. It is about getting ahead of your man and getting to the ball first. That is one of the problems with going man to man. You try and block off your man and stop him getting a run at the ball. the problem though is that it is reactive the attacker makes a run and you try and stop it.

If you mark zonaly then you have players trying to disrupt the runners and you have a row of players attacking the ball. The benefits for me are that you can attack the ball, you are heading towards the direction you want the ball to go and if you don't have men on the posts then you have a good chance of the flick on finding someone offside.

For me we are trying to defend set pieces the way Barca do with the attacking threat of a counter attack preventing teams from overloading the box. You look at Kompany's goal and we had three attacking players outside of our area. If we had a big fella on the near post and a keeper who was comfortable coming for the ball then it would work much better.

The thing is we are a work in progress and as PoP has pointed out corners especially are such a hit and miss affair that at this stage of our development aren't really worth fretting too much about. We have scored from 5 corners and 2 wide free kicks already this season ourselves so it isn't going to cost us too much.

[mrantarctica]

Yes, but if you're bad at defending both their may be some common reasons. I think we are poor at both, and there are (some) common reasons. We do not appear to be a side that has a clear idea of what it is meant to be doing for set plays, which is an issue for the coaches (who are otherwise doing really, really good things with the club)

Surely then we can simply practise our free kicks defending and see reward with corners at the same time, which is what I was suggesting?

I accept the "low event rate" thing to an extent, but we have conceeded corners in 3 tight games, all of which have cost us points against sides near the top of the table, and went out fo the league cup because of another one. Lukaku's for Everton was simply a really good corner, really well attacked, (though arguably having Glen Johnson marking Lukaku is setting up to fail). The other three had elements of poor defending that can be addressed.

Yes, but this is still very much circumstantial and anecdotal evidence. I think PoP used a good analogy about people being afraid to fly planes because of anecdotal evidence when there's an entire large body of evidence to suggest differently. You can't on the one hand accept that corners are a low rate event in general but for us they aren't (even though the goals we concede from corners are seemingly within acceptable limits as others have pointed out with their percentages) just because of what happened in important games. In fact, if we were to concede from corners at all, those are exactly the games I would expect to concede in because the top teams have the best players who can deliver well, rather than lower teams who will get fewer corners against us.

I make no secret of the fact that I rated Benitez and his methods very highly. Rodgers' approach is very, very different, and, to be fair, is reaping good results. He has us a far more free flowing, exciting and incisive team in an attacking capacity than Rafa did.

I am a big fan of Rafa's methods. There were many times I thought we played some glorious football with much less capable players. 

I'm not suggesting we do no work at all, but I think you have to pick your battles. I think we had a massive problem with scoring goals and we've largely addressed that and still have some way to go I feel. In the mean time I'm pretty happy to be a bit suspect on corners if it means we'll not concede from open play, and score a few more at the other end. It would really depend on how many goals the training staff thought we could prevent. Without knowing how much they even practise corners, it's hard to comment on that.

Free kicks, which I think are a different kettle of fish, is a different story. It may be as you say that there are some common skills that we need to work on like our jumping, positioning, balance, coordination, timing etc. but I would preferentially concentrate on our set pieces (where I don't think we have any system) rather than corners, where we aren't the best but we really aren't too bad.

[woof]

I'd like us to try marking zonally (that way preventing Skrtel from wrestling his man to the ground) but with 2 players guarding each side of the posts. We have to attack the ball better rather than stopping the opposition player.

Do we have a stat on which team defends corner the best and try to emulate them?

[Trendisnotdestiny]

I'd like us to try marking zonally (that way preventing Skrtel from wrestling his man to the ground) but with 2 players guarding each side of the posts. We have to attack the ball better rather than stopping the opposition player.

Do we have a stat on which team defends corner the best and try to emulate them?

Well, we have both man markers and zonal defending.  Did you see where Lucas was on Kompany's goal?  He was fronting the zone. 

I am not convinced a zonal marking system solely is the way to go.  A few weaknesses of zonal marking system are: 1) players movement across the face of the zone is impossible to prevent; 2) physicality of aerial contention is much more likely to be less and 3) World class athletes can get a decent run, momentum and force on their re-direction before contact is made.   

[Red number seven]

Surely then we can simply practise our free kicks defending and see reward with corners at the same time, which is what I was suggesting?

Yes, but this is still very much circumstantial and anecdotal evidence. I think PoP used a good analogy about people being afraid to fly planes because of anecdotal evidence when there's an entire large body of evidence to suggest differently.

The event rate is not as low as that, so, whilst I understand the analogy, it is a little flawed. However, it is very possible to accept that airlines are generally very safe, but still make a rational, statistical judgement that a particular airline is less safe and not fly with it. A better example would be picking a surgeon - most surgery is statistically very safe, with a low but very real adverse event rate - we still all want to make sure the individual surgeon is the best we can get and that is entirely rational.

You can't on the one hand accept that corners are a low rate event in general but for us they aren't (even though the goals we concede from corners are seemingly within acceptable limits as others have pointed out with their percentages) just because of what happened in important games. In fact, if we were to concede from corners at all, those are exactly the games I would expect to concede in because the top teams have the best players who can deliver well, rather than lower teams who will get fewer corners against us.

I agree that there may be more of a threat from better sides...

...the "low event rate" of goals from corners (although I have a slight issue with that as I think that goals from corners are more likely to be critical in tight games vs high quality opposition).

...which is, arguably even more reason to be good at it. Preventing big goals in tight and often low scoring games against direct rivals are statistically more likely to make a big difference to long term goals.

I'm not suggesting we do no work at all, but I think you have to pick your battles. I think we had a massive problem with scoring goals and we've largely addressed that and still have some way to go I feel. In the mean time I'm pretty happy to be a bit suspect on corners if it means we'll not concede from open play, and score a few more at the other end. It would really depend on how many goals the training staff thought we could prevent. Without knowing how much they even practise corners, it's hard to comment on that.

Agreed. PoP's suggestion that there is an opportunity cost to practising corners regularly enough to make a difference makes sense. I would rather we were good at other things too.

Free kicks, which I think are a different kettle of fish, is a different story. It may be as you say that there are some common skills that we need to work on like our jumping, positioning, balance, coordination, timing etc. but I would preferentially concentrate on our set pieces (where I don't think we have any system) rather than corners, where we aren't the best but we really aren't too bad.

I think the main thing we need to improve on for both kinds of set pieces is knowing and sticking to roles, and concentration. To get that perfect requires a lot of drilling. I accept that, and I also accept we may be better of working on other things for now. Proof of the pudding is there for all to see -  best we've been since 2009 without a doubt.

[Trendisnotdestiny]

Corners played into the near post aren't about out jumping your opponent when you are marking man to man though. It is about getting ahead of your man and getting to the ball first. That is one of the problems with going man to man. You try and block off your man and stop him getting a run at the ball. the problem though is that it is reactive the attacker makes a run and you try and stop it.

If you mark zonaly then you have players trying to disrupt the runners and you have a row of players attacking the ball. The benefits for me are that you can attack the ball, you are heading towards the direction you want the ball to go and if you don't have men on the posts then you have a good chance of the flick on finding someone offside.

For me we are trying to defend set pieces the way Barca do with the attacking threat of a counter attack preventing teams from overloading the box. You look at Kompany's goal and we had three attacking players outside of our area. If we had a big fella on the near post and a keeper who was comfortable coming for the ball then it would work much better.

The thing is we are a work in progress and as PoP has pointed out corners especially are such a hit and miss affair that at this stage of our development aren't really worth fretting too much about. We have scored from 5 corners and 2 wide free kicks already this season ourselves so it isn't going to cost us too much.

Not so sure about this.  First, zonal marking is about a fixed position and limited range for individual defenders with specific responsibilities.  Now, the coaching of the zonal marking systems can always improve technique and address system weaknesses, but the major drawback is the lack of physicality on the player who is making a run prior to contact (if they are able to run freely into the zone).  Second, and more importantly runners are able to get to places they want to get to in the zone without any preventative measure limiting movement.  This is why I think you need a mix of zonal marking and man-to-man marking with the most potent runners. 

We all have seen situations where the zone led to very passive and stagnant defending where the offensive player runs across the face of the defense unaccounted for.  This cannot happen in any system, but I think it is more likely in a zonal marking system (imo).

[Red number seven]

Not so sure about this.  First, zonal marking is about a fixed position and limited range for individual defenders with specific responsibilities.  Now, the coaching of the zonal marking systems can always improve technique and address system weaknesses, but the major drawback is the lack of physicality on the player who is making a run prior to contact (if they are able to run freely into the zone).  Second, and more importantly runners are able to get to places they want to get to in the zone without any preventative measure limiting movement.  This is why I think you need a mix of zonal marking and man-to-man marking with the most potent runners. 

We all have seen situations where the zone led to very passive and stagnant defending where the offensive player runs across the face of the defense unaccounted for.  This cannot happen in any system, but I think it is more likely in a zonal marking system (imo).

Agree with your assessment. The beauty of the zonal system is that you should never have a completely free header from a dangerous position because someomne slipped a marker - the dangerous positions are what is deliberately marked. The problem is, of course, that good "attackers" of the ball can get an unhindered run and generate more momentum than the defender, who is already "in position."

The best balance, in my view, is to have a good front screen to make it more difficult to get good delivery, your best headers of a ball attacking the most critical spaces (particularly the front half of the six yard box, but depends how far you want to take this) and less good headers marking key players coming from deep to block their runs, preventing this momentum. Takes some organising, discipine and concentration, but in my view a "semi-zonal" approach is the most effective, sensible balance.

Whatever system is employed, though, requires concentration and aggressive attacking of the ball. If these elements are missing -which they are for us - you are onto a loser.

[Mutton Geoff]

this thread could be summed up as yeah we're still at it .

[TheDarkKnight]

This thread has been a great anti-jinx so far!

Haven't conceded from a set-piece since it was created, despite playing two of the most physically imposing, dirtiest teams in the league (Chelsea and Hull).

Meanwhile, all three of our goals in the aforementioned two games have come from set-pieces. One a direct free-kick, the other from a corner and in-direct free-kick.

Seems like as well as conceding a hell of a lot of goals from set-pieces this season we've also benefited a lot from offensive ones. Anyone got stats? Would think we're top five.

[Durlmints]

This thread has been a great anti-jinx so far!

Haven't conceded from a set-piece since it was created, despite playing two of the most physically imposing, dirtiest teams in the league (Chelsea and Hull).

Meanwhile, all three of our goals in the aforementioned two games have come from set-pieces. One a direct free-kick, the other from a corner and in-direct free-kick.

Seems like as well as conceding a hell of a lot of goals from set-pieces this season we've also benefited a lot from offensive ones. Anyone got stats? Would think we're top five.

They said they other day on Sky that we have the most set piece goals in the league with something like 16 goals.

[Eliit]

Seems like as well as conceding a hell of a lot of goals from set-pieces this season we've also benefited a lot from offensive ones. Anyone got stats? Would think we're top five.

We were first few weeks/a month ago. Haven't seen the latest stats but I think we're still first.

[Sir Psycho Sexy]

It's been dire for seasons now. Every time a team gets one, they have a fair chance of getting a goal. Needs sorting, badly.

[The 5th Benitle]

Bumped, with the decision on player topics in mind


http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=317166.0

[BassTunedToRed]

Here's our record for defending set pieces in the PL from 2009/10 onwards (Excludes the recent WBA game).

It's been broadly the same (in goals against terms) every season.

[Redwhiteandnotblue]

The event rate is not as low as that, so, whilst I understand the analogy, it is a little flawed. However, it is very possible to accept that airlines are generally very safe, but still make a rational, statistical judgement that a particular airline is less safe and not fly with it. A better example would be picking a surgeon - most surgery is statistically very safe, with a low but very real adverse event rate - we still all want to make sure the individual surgeon is the best we can get and that is entirely rational.

It's generally a particular plane or engine type that's not safe, not the airline.

...and it's generally the players or the system, not the team.

[Redman0151]

Here's our record for defending set pieces in the PL from 2009/10 onwards (Excludes the recent WBA game).

It's been broadly the same (in goals against terms) every season.

Does that include goals directly from free kicks and penalties?

[itsgunnabebarnes!]

Coates, Sakho and Lori. Some of the best talent in football in these positions. All played at an extremely high level of football.

There's more to our defence problem than meets the eye. It's not the personnel.

[BassTunedToRed]

Does that include goals directly from free kicks and penalties?

Not penalties, but direct free-kicks are included.

[DanA]

Here's our record for defending set pieces in the PL from 2009/10 onwards (Excludes the recent WBA game).

It's been broadly the same (in goals against terms) every season.

Interesting.

My take is that we've been very poor at indirect set pieces but decent at corners and superb defending direct free kicks.  Overall our record looks okay but I'd suggest if you took the first 10 games of this season and the first 10 games of last season it would look atrocious, particularly if you just looked at indirect set pieces.

[Draex]

Another game another bout of woeful defending from set pieces. Embarrasing we still haven't worked out how to stop looking like Sunday League amateurs.

[Severely]

Good God in heaven. It's getting to the point where it doesn't feel like any sort of exaggeration at all to suggest that we'll concede goals from at least one set piece ever game. I don't know what's going wrong, but at this stage, it's getting hard to blame it all on personnel - there must be some sort of systemic error that's being made and overlooked because this is beyond shocking for a team in the Champion's League. I can't believe that Rodgers is capable of overlooking this issue because it's so blatant, but whatever he's trying, it doesn't seem to be working.

[Chakan]

I think the title of the thread is misleading.

[Kopite B205]

I've seen kids in a Sunday league team defend better. I honestly have to question what we work on in training!

[Fromola]

Time to get tough over this.

If necessary Rodgers should demand every player in the penalty box for every set piece and every time we concede a goal from a set piece, and it costs us the game (got away with it today) then the whole team is fined and coaching staff and manager included.

This is an absolute farce and can't go on.

[kaz1983]

[bodhisattva]

Time to get tough over this.

If necessary Rodgers should demand every player in the penalty box for every set piece and every time we concede a goal from a set piece, and it costs us the game (got away with it today) then the whole team is fined and coaching staff and manager included.

This is an absolute farce and can't go on.

I think part of the problem was we were pulling too many players back which meant the opposition could load the penalty area meaning it was very crowded then it becomes a bit of a lottery where the ball bounces the wrong way and we're in trouble. Recently we have been leaving players up and i do think this will help, we have such a threat on the counter if we leave Sturridge, Sterling, Coutinho maybe someone like Moreno on the edge of the area or on the half way line it forces the opposition to leave more bodies back and then the penalty area is less crowded and in theory it should be easier to deal with.

[Jookie]

I think part of the problem was we were pulling too many players back which meant the opposition could load the penalty area meaning it was very crowded then it becomes a bit of a lottery where the ball bounces the wrong way and we're in trouble. Recently we have been leaving players up and i do think this will help, we have such a threat on the counter if we leave Sturridge, Sterling, Coutinho maybe someone like Moreno on the edge of the area or on the half way line it forces the opposition to leave more bodies back and then the penalty area is less crowded and in theory it should be easier to deal with.

I agree with this. I would keep 2, maybe even 3, players on the half way line. Force the opposition to put at least 3 men back.

In turn the penalty box would be less crowded, which I think may make it easier for Mignolet and our defenders to deal with.

It may be that the extra space helps us. On the other hand it could give the opposition more room to attack the ball

[redmark]

I've seen kids in a Sunday league team defend better. I honestly have to question what we work on in training!

We practice marking Balotelli.

[Fromola]

I think part of the problem was we were pulling too many players back which meant the opposition could load the penalty area meaning it was very crowded then it becomes a bit of a lottery where the ball bounces the wrong way and we're in trouble. Recently we have been leaving players up and i do think this will help, we have such a threat on the counter if we leave Sturridge, Sterling, Coutinho maybe someone like Moreno on the edge of the area or on the half way line it forces the opposition to leave more bodies back and then the penalty area is less crowded and in theory it should be easier to deal with.

That's a good point actually. Yesterday other than the obligitory goal from a corner we conceded the threat was more the second ball coming back into the box and causing chaos. When we did get the winning goal it was down to a great counter attack from their set piece after we won the ball. We can keep the smaller players up the pitch who can cause chaos on the counter (Sterling, Moreno, Coutinho, Lallana) but if you've got 7 or 8 players over 6 foot in your team, we should be dealing with set pieces far better.

There was a spell during that winning run where we were so devastating on the counter that you even fancied us scoring from an opposition corner as much as you were worried it could be a goal for them. We really need to get back to basics generally with defending.

[SquirrelandGman]

We seem to be terrible at defending them no matter who our manager is. I cant recall us being solid at defending corners during rafa's zonal marking days and we continued that trend all the way to rodger's reign.

Goals conceded from corners/free-kicks in PL since October 2015 (up to 3pm on 1/10/16)

Team   Goals conceded from corners/free-kicks
Swansea   18
Liverpool   16
Stoke       16
B'mouth   13
Everton     13
Newcastle13
Watford   13

As of today we've conceded 17 since october 2015..1 off from being the worst in the league and looking at the teams around us in the table doesnt make good reading.

What do u think is the main issue? Short players? System? Poor Keeping/defending? Or just a matter of concentration?

[Funky_Gibbons]

Klopp gave away our tactics on MNF. 

Joke

[Eeyore]

[CHOPPER]

We're Bayern Munchkin

[It's Jimmy Corkhill]

We were fine under Rafa after a year in spite of the media bollocks about zonal marking - which we also used under Bob Paisley - and we were very good under Houllier for a few years solid.

Our team is quite small, not strong in the air throughout and it's a weakness to work on. The more the keeper plays with a settled back four, the easier it'll get. The rest of the lads are going to have to get their house in order though as they aren't going to grow a foot taller overnight.

[SquirrelandGman]

Wow i take that  back.. rafa did do well in set pieces.

The media criticism of his zonal marking might have tainted my memory