Author Topic: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!  (Read 171838 times)

Offline Fitzy.

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #320 on: January 2, 2024, 02:22:17 pm »
For those who have a TAW subscription…the latest EPL show certainly chimes with elements of this thread. Reffing is dead hard, some are really poor and some make big errors…but the endless anger about everything a ref does is absolutely exhausting but is encouraged by all corners of the media.

Offline Jm55

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #321 on: January 2, 2024, 02:23:53 pm »
I read it the same as you. I think the poster was saying we didn't have any bad decisions against us.

From his previous posts in this thread I don't think so, there was a post from another poster stating that 'only one decision went against us' which is what I believe the post was responding to, however if I've read it incorrectly then it can obviously be disregarded.

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #322 on: January 2, 2024, 03:00:55 pm »
Referees literally got paid by Man City's owners to officiate in their country in the middle of the PL season.

As someone else said before, if John Henry paid a bunch of them to go and officiate for another one of his investments, there would be national uproar.

There is a lot of condescending language in this thread about people who believe - with plenty of evidence - that something foul is going on. It doesn't mean every single decision in every single game, but there is enough smoke to indicate there is a fire.

There is corruption, and there is incompetence. As with government, it's a fine line to determine which is which.
I think this has been a good thread. Personally, I find the "there is absolutely no corruption" drum bangers to be just as bad as the "every injustice is corruption" drum bangers.

It's absolutely clear that there is corruption in football. It's a multi billion industry run by some extremely shady countries, governing bodies and individuals. Shady deals green-lighted by our very own highly corrupt government. TV companies pulling the strings of the game with multi billion pound deals. All of these players have their own interests to satisfy. They all hold a lot of power and influence. Do we genuinely believe that all these highly dodgy dealers have suddenly had personality transplants now they are in football and are selflessly looking after the best interests of the game rather than their own interests?

Facts are, football is a cesspool populated by leeches and sharks. It's a rancid environment. For me, none of that is even debatable. What is, is how far down the chain this goes. Does it, in certain scenarios, at certain times, in certain situations, play out on the pitch and in the VAR bunker?

Those who see the opposition getting a debatable throw-in as corruption just muddy the waters. So do those who put inexplicable decisions that alter the destination of titles at the sharp end of the season down as 'just one of those things'.

Truth is, we just don't know. But while we see officials strutting around and never having to account for their actions, who can blame fans for wondering? Who can blame fans for wondering what the hell is going on when refs can be whisked off to the middle East and pampered, before coming back here to referee clubs that rival middle eastern clubs for trophies?

We are dealing with corrupt individuals and corrupt countries, so why do we think we are so damn special and our game isn't being manipulated in some ways by these people? Nature dictates that the hen should always be wary of the fox. Football is choc full of predators feeding of it, be it for money, fame, political ends or whatever. It pays to be wary, especially as there is so little accountability in the game these days.

My guess is that bias is rampant in the PGMOL. As is incompetence. The lack of accountability fuels this further. Actual corruption playing out on the field of play? I honestly don't know. If it is, I suspect it is relatively rare. Long term trends would have to be looked at with certain officials and officiating certain clubs would have to be looked at. Or inexplicable decisions that alter outcomes at highly crucial times.

But anyway, where there is power, money and lack of accountability there will always be those who will manipulate and look to manufacture an advantage. Football ignores this at its peril.
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Offline Hestoic

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #323 on: January 2, 2024, 03:05:16 pm »
.

Well said, mate. Totally agreed.

It has happened in other leagues in the past 10 years, why hasn't it happened in ours?

There's a huge amount of inconsistency. In my opinion, they should stop cycling the refs doing VAR duties and have dedicated independent VAR officials that are the same for every game every week. The lowest bar is that they should be consistently wrong and have something to improve upon, rather than totally inconsistent as it is now.

Offline Andar

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #324 on: January 2, 2024, 03:16:56 pm »
Anyone think we are destructing ourselves by showing such outright vitriol towards the refs?

The chants like 'Fuck off Taylor/Tierney' and 'You manc bastard' towards Taylor, Kavanagh, and Tierney. That is just going to turn them more against us. The argument is that they are already showing bias against us, but this sure as hell isn't going to help.

It'll be hard for them not to be bitter towards our fanbase when they hear chants like that. There is not a team in the league that is aiming specific chants at them like we are.

We're in a title race, and they could easily sway it against us with a decision. The fanbase is not exactly being smart in turning them against us even further.

The chants need to be put in the bin.

Offline tyrolean_red

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #325 on: January 2, 2024, 03:17:34 pm »
How can people defend the ref after that game? Just becuase we got two stonewall pens?

Its not about each and every decision. Its about the general appliance of rules in our games.

Joelinton not getting booked? I get it, he can decide that based on the rules.
So why book Endo for a very similar foul?

Basically every little touch on their playera resulted in a freekick for them, whereas tackles on our players got waved away numerous times.

There is just no clear line of execution visible.

Not only in yesterdays game. Its quite unusual a team playing the way we do has that many fouls and cards against as we do.

The way i see it, we get officiated strictly by the name of rules, which is alright. However, our opponents most of the time get a lot more leeway.
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #326 on: January 2, 2024, 03:20:44 pm »
How can people defend the ref after that game? Just becuase we got two stonewall pens?

Its not about each and every decision. Its about the general appliance of rules in our games.

Joelinton not getting booked? I get it, he can decide that based on the rules.
So why book Endo for a very similar foul?

Basically every little touch on their playera resulted in a freekick for them, whereas tackles on our players got waved away numerous times.

There is just no clear line of execution visible.

Not only in yesterdays game. Its quite unusual a team playing the way we do has that many fouls and cards against as we do.

The way i see it, we get officiated strictly by the name of rules, which is alright. However, our opponents most of the time get a lot more leeway.
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Offline tubby

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #327 on: January 2, 2024, 03:26:02 pm »
No one is defending the refs really, I think we can all agree that they're shit.  It's just that some people think it's deliberate.
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #328 on: January 2, 2024, 03:29:45 pm »

Basically every little touch on their playera resulted in a freekick for them, whereas tackles on our players got waved away numerous times.


We had 16 fouls given against us, Newcastle 15.

We had 3 yhellow cards, Newcastle 5.

I'm not defending the ref, I think Taylor is a prick and I was as annoyed as anyone.

What I do question is whether the emotion of the match made me feel more hard done by than perhaps the evidence on the pitch suggested.

The obvious devils advocate argument to the above is that Newcastle were a gang of absolute grocks determined on destroying play so the fact that the numbers are as even as they are suggests that we were dealt with more harshly than they were, but again it's subjective.

Offline Knight

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #329 on: January 2, 2024, 03:30:09 pm »
I think this has been a good thread. Personally, I find the "there is absolutely no corruption" drum bangers to be just as bad as the "every injustice is corruption" drum bangers.

It's absolutely clear that there is corruption in football. It's a multi billion industry run by some extremely shady countries, governing bodies and individuals. Shady deals green-lighted by our very own highly corrupt government. TV companies pulling the strings of the game with multi billion pound deals. All of these players have their own interests to satisfy. They all hold a lot of power and influence. Do we genuinely believe that all these highly dodgy dealers have suddenly had personality transplants now they are in football and are selflessly looking after the best interests of the game rather than their own interests?

Facts are, football is a cesspool populated by leeches and sharks. It's a rancid environment. For me, none of that is even debatable. What is, is how far down the chain this goes. Does it, in certain scenarios, at certain times, in certain situations, play out on the pitch and in the VAR bunker?

Those who see the opposition getting a debatable throw-in as corruption just muddy the waters. So do those who put inexplicable decisions that alter the destination of titles at the sharp end of the season down as 'just one of those things'.

Truth is, we just don't know. But while we see officials strutting around and never having to account for their actions, who can blame fans for wondering? Who can blame fans for wondering what the hell is going on when refs can be whisked off to the middle East and pampered, before coming back here to referee clubs that rival middle eastern clubs for trophies?

We are dealing with corrupt individuals and corrupt countries, so why do we think we are so damn special and our game isn't being manipulated in some ways by these people? Nature dictates that the hen should always be wary of the fox. Football is choc full of predators feeding of it, be it for money, fame, political ends or whatever. It pays to be wary, especially as there is so little accountability in the game these days.

My guess is that bias is rampant in the PGMOL. As is incompetence. The lack of accountability fuels this further. Actual corruption playing out on the field of play? I honestly don't know. If it is, I suspect it is relatively rare. Long term trends would have to be looked at with certain officials and officiating certain clubs would have to be looked at. Or inexplicable decisions that alter outcomes at highly crucial times.

But anyway, where there is power, money and lack of accountability there will always be those who will manipulate and look to manufacture an advantage. Football ignores this at its peril.

On the reffing thing - it’d be match fixing from officials and the way you’d find out would be a. Sting operations or b. Following the money. It might be happening but there’s no evidence for it. Whereas when it comes to corruption if other places in the football world… well the evidence is everywhere.

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #330 on: January 2, 2024, 03:43:29 pm »
Can we all at least agree that Neville 'is out to get us'. Never has the beacon of idiocy (ie football punditry) shone more brightly than it did last night in the fevered eye of Neville. In what universe does a forward beat the whole defence and the goalkeeper (on two separate occasions!) to then dive in order to give a penalty to another player he is in competition with for his place, rather than take on a one yard tap-in into an empty net. And why did no other 'pundit' rip the piss out of him for being so blinded with hatred. And that's without the, "Liverpool will never win the league with these type of antics" shite.
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #331 on: January 2, 2024, 03:47:13 pm »
No one is defending the refs really, I think we can all agree that they're shit.  It's just that some people think it's deliberate.

And some refuse to believe that sometimes it really is deliberate.
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Offline tubby

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #332 on: January 2, 2024, 03:49:51 pm »
And some refuse to believe that sometimes it really is deliberate.

Is every fanbase who thinks that correct, or just ours?
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #333 on: January 2, 2024, 03:51:27 pm »
Is every fanbase who thinks that correct, or just ours?

Just me.
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Offline smicer07

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #334 on: January 2, 2024, 04:00:10 pm »
Reading a Newcastle forum earlier and it was the exactly the same as on here- ref against them etc etc. I think everyone has an unconscious bias, I'm as guilty as anyone.

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #335 on: January 2, 2024, 04:00:42 pm »
Can we all at least agree that Neville 'is out to get us'.

Reading some of the shite in this thread, I'd make that a definite no....
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Offline Jm55

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #336 on: January 2, 2024, 04:04:54 pm »
Can we all at least agree that Neville 'is out to get us'. Never has the beacon of idiocy (ie football punditry) shone more brightly than it did last night in the fevered eye of Neville. In what universe does a forward beat the whole defence and the goalkeeper (on two separate occasions!) to then dive in order to give a penalty to another player he is in competition with for his place, rather than take on a one yard tap-in into an empty net. And why did no other 'pundit' rip the piss out of him for being so blinded with hatred. And that's without the, "Liverpool will never win the league with these type of antics" shite.

Agreed although I actually think he was far worse in the Arsenal match than he was last night.

Offline Andy82lfc

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #337 on: January 2, 2024, 04:06:00 pm »
Can we all at least agree that Neville 'is out to get us'. Never has the beacon of idiocy (ie football punditry) shone more brightly than it did last night in the fevered eye of Neville. In what universe does a forward beat the whole defence and the goalkeeper (on two separate occasions!) to then dive in order to give a penalty to another player he is in competition with for his place, rather than take on a one yard tap-in into an empty net. And why did no other 'pundit' rip the piss out of him for being so blinded with hatred. And that's without the, "Liverpool will never win the league with these type of antics" shite.

You can hear it throughout and not even in these more obvious moments, he doesn’t try and hide it or be professional for a moment.

In the first few minutes Newcastle were allowing us to press right at the back and they came close to giving it away, soon as it happened rat boy is losing it already saying “why do teams do this at Anfield, why?” In other words “stop playing that way you idiots you’re going to let them score” his night didn’t get much better from then on.

Offline Eeyore

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #338 on: January 2, 2024, 04:14:23 pm »
I'm saying it's NOT bent. Both were penalties but a bent refereeing team could easily have overturned both decisions and, indeed, given both players yellow cards. That's what bent means. They could also have quite easily awarded Newcastle a penalty at the Kop end. Once again it would have been the wrong decision, but not so outrageously wrong as to provoke an inquiry.

I think that by the time those decisions came around Taylor was already out of lifelines.

A bent refereeing team can only do so much. Otherwise, there are going to be repercussions. For me, they managed to turn a 6 or 7 nil into a competitive game. I honestly don't think they could have pushed it any further. The players, Klopp and the crowd were already on Taylor's case.

Being a bent officiating team is about giving an edge. It isn't about turning around possibly the most one-sided game in Premier League history.

Stating that they can't be biased because they didn't give different penalty decisions is a bit like stating that someone isn't dipping the till because they left the fifty-pound notes and only took a couple of quid at a time. 
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Offline Jm55

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #339 on: January 2, 2024, 04:18:32 pm »
I think that by the time those decisions came around Taylor was already out of lifelines.

A bent refereeing team can only do so much. Otherwise, there are going to be repercussions. For me, they managed to turn a 6 or 7 nil into a competitive game. I honestly don't think they could have pushed it any further. The players, Klopp and the crowd were already on Taylor's case.

Being a bent officiating team is about giving an edge. It isn't about turning around possibly the most one-sided game in Premier League history.

Stating that they can't be biased because they didn't give different penalty decisions is a bit like stating that someone isn't dipping the till because they left the fifty-pound notes and only took a couple of quid at a time.

The point is though that if he hadn't given the Jota penalty there wouldn't have been a massive uproar, there were no 'lifelines' needed as the fact that he did give it has been the subject of significant debate in itself.

He could quite easily have not given that penalty and the narrative would have been that he didn't see the contact and that the VAR didn't see it as a clear and obvious error.

If he was blatantly hacked down or something I'd agree with you but he wasn't, I can't comment on the Newcastle penalty as I've no idea what Howe was even referring to as I've no recollection of them wanting a penalty.

Offline Redley

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #340 on: January 2, 2024, 04:27:48 pm »
I read it the same as you. I think the poster was saying we didn't have any bad decisions against us.

Nooo, no not even close. There were literally 70/30s in our favour going to Newcastle, the Joelinton ones are obvious, there was a clear foul on Gomez pretty late on.

Offline Hestoic

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #341 on: January 2, 2024, 04:35:18 pm »
I think that by the time those decisions came around Taylor was already out of lifelines.

A bent refereeing team can only do so much. Otherwise, there are going to be repercussions. For me, they managed to turn a 6 or 7 nil into a competitive game. I honestly don't think they could have pushed it any further. The players, Klopp and the crowd were already on Taylor's case.

Being a bent officiating team is about giving an edge. It isn't about turning around possibly the most one-sided game in Premier League history.

Stating that they can't be biased because they didn't give different penalty decisions is a bit like stating that someone isn't dipping the till because they left the fifty-pound notes and only took a couple of quid at a time.

This is exactly it - about giving an edge, not sabotage. Well said.

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #342 on: January 2, 2024, 04:39:20 pm »
The point is though that if he hadn't given the Jota penalty there wouldn't have been a massive uproar, there were no 'lifelines' needed as the fact that he did give it has been the subject of significant debate in itself.

He could quite easily have not given that penalty and the narrative would have been that he didn't see the contact and that the VAR didn't see it as a clear and obvious error.

If he was blatantly hacked down or something I'd agree with you but he wasn't, I can't comment on the Newcastle penalty as I've no idea what Howe was even referring to as I've no recollection of them wanting a penalty.

I think the Jota one was a stonewall penalty though. The keeper's elbow has come down on Jota's heel as his foot is going up as part of his running motion. I think if you take away Ratboy's narrative then both our penalties were stonewallers.

The other thing is that Taylor has to be certain that Attwell on VAR won't send him to the monitor. I think what needs to be remembered is that refereeing is a dog-eat-dog business. Each match official is marked on each game and they have a League table of referees that decides on which referees get the big games and which refs get things like European games, Cup finals, and tournaments.

The major factor for how a referee is scored for a game is KMI 'key match incidents'. Taylor and Atwell are both UEFA officials who are competing against each other for the big games. That for me is why we should have specialist VAR's who aren't trying to make a name for themselves as a referee.   
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #343 on: January 2, 2024, 04:44:09 pm »
Stating that they can't be biased because they didn't give different penalty decisions is a bit like stating that someone isn't dipping the till because they left the fifty-pound notes and only took a couple of quid at a time.

This is a great way of putting it.
 
If some of the people in this thread ever decided to rob a bank, I imagine they’d walk in wearing a stripy jumper and carrying a big brown sack with dollar signs on. If you’re a referee biased against a certain team, you still have to show a certain amount of nuance. If you don’t you’ll get Darren England’d and…given two weeks off on full pay and then shown a video of how pilots communicate with air traffic control.

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #344 on: January 2, 2024, 04:44:43 pm »
I think that by the time those decisions came around Taylor was already out of lifelines.

A bent refereeing team can only do so much. Otherwise, there are going to be repercussions. For me, they managed to turn a 6 or 7 nil into a competitive game. I honestly don't think they could have pushed it any further. The players, Klopp and the crowd were already on Taylor's case.

Being a bent officiating team is about giving an edge. It isn't about turning around possibly the most one-sided game in Premier League history.

Stating that they can't be biased because they didn't give different penalty decisions is a bit like stating that someone isn't dipping the till because they left the fifty-pound notes and only took a couple of quid at a time. 

From whom? From where?
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #345 on: January 2, 2024, 04:51:44 pm »
From whom? From where?

The atmosphere inside the ground was seething, you had experienced players like Trent basically calling him out on the pitch, you had Diaz flipping. You had Klopp making it abundantly clear to the 4th official that Joelinton shouldn't be on the pitch.

Taylor has pushed his luck as far as he could go. If he hadn't given those penalties I would have been amazed if the club hadn't put in a formal complaint.

Personally, I think Taylor for whatever reason is biased against Liverpool. He isn't stupid and knew full well he had pushed things far enough. 
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #346 on: January 2, 2024, 04:54:33 pm »
Reading a Newcastle forum earlier and it was the exactly the same as on here- ref against them etc etc. I think everyone has an unconscious bias, I'm as guilty as anyone.
We do, and it's normal. We also have many conscious biases too. I remember when I was doing my training in counselling and psychotherapy. We did a lot of work on this subject. Even when we don't think we do have a certain bias, if we scratch the surface we often actually do.

Human beings are making judgements all the time. Judgements on people, situations, social groups etc. It takes good self-awareness to identify our more subconscious biases and put them aside in a professional setting. Thing is with football, there just isn't the required levels of accountability to help keep officials on the straight and narrow.

Conscious and subconscious biases are normal. They really shouldn't be tolerated, if/when identified, in the professional setting, though.

I think fans can be objective if we are prepared to stand back and look at the wider context. Our natural, immediate, emotional standpoints will often be coloured with bias though.

The thing with modern football is that when you do stand back and strip away the emotion and natural bias, something still smells pretty bad.

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #347 on: January 2, 2024, 05:00:56 pm »
Nooo, no not even close. There were literally 70/30s in our favour going to Newcastle, the Joelinton ones are obvious, there was a clear foul on Gomez pretty late on.
Thanks for clarifying. I read you incorrectly.  :thumbup
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #348 on: January 2, 2024, 05:01:39 pm »
The atmosphere inside the ground was seething, you had experienced players like Trent basically calling him out on the pitch, you had Diaz flipping. You had Klopp making it abundantly clear to the 4th official that Joelinton shouldn't be on the pitch.

Taylor has pushed his luck as far as he could go. If he hadn't given those penalties I would have been amazed if the club hadn't put in a formal complaint.

Personally, I think Taylor for whatever reason is biased against Liverpool. He isn't stupid and knew full well he had pushed things far enough.

The Diaz penalty is early on though and before the ground was riled up and the players kicking off.

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #349 on: January 2, 2024, 05:02:48 pm »
This is a great way of putting it.
 
If some of the people in this thread ever decided to rob a bank, I imagine they’d walk in wearing a stripy jumper and carrying a big brown sack with dollar signs on. If you’re a referee biased against a certain team, you still have to show a certain amount of nuance. If you don’t you’ll get Darren England’d and…given two weeks off on full pay and then shown a video of how pilots communicate with air traffic control.

The one where Gomez was pole-axed and Klopp was doing his nut on the touchline?
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #350 on: January 2, 2024, 05:04:59 pm »
The atmosphere inside the ground was seething, you had experienced players like Trent basically calling him out on the pitch, you had Diaz flipping. You had Klopp making it abundantly clear to the 4th official that Joelinton shouldn't be on the pitch.

Taylor has pushed his luck as far as he could go. If he hadn't given those penalties I would have been amazed if the club hadn't put in a formal complaint.

Personally, I think Taylor for whatever reason is biased against Liverpool. He isn't stupid and knew full well he had pushed things far enough. 

You have access to his thought processes, and I don't. So I'm on weaker ground than you.

He did give the pen though. That's a fact.
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #351 on: January 2, 2024, 05:10:19 pm »
I think there's plenty of evidence for incompetence rather than corruption.  Not just in our games but across the fixtures every week.  The one that sticks in my mind is Arteta losing his head that the VAR didn't disallow Newcastle's goal in the 1-0 earlier this season.  For what it's worth I think Arteta was probably right but if the VAR had intended to screw Arsenal over then they would have issued a red card to Havertz earlier in the match - an open goal for a bent official.

I also think the errors by the on-field officials should be forgiven as it's a very difficult job to do in an arena where players will claim for everything and try to squeeze out every advantage they can.  Taylor last night was driving me crazy with his decisions and I had to check myself from ranting and raving as I didn't want my lad who was watching with me to get that mindset that "all refs are out to screw you".  At the same time though he did award us two penalties when he could not have done so and there was one cynical foul near the end where he didn't book our player (I think it was Gomez).  Taylor is one of those refs where he's not even consistent with himself from minute to minute.

What the introduction of VAR has done is shown that the interpretations of the rules of the game are very different from incident to incident.  Previously it was put down to the ref having a poor view or the game being too fast.  Now though, even with endless camera angles and slow-mo replays, the officials come up with some really weird decisions that highlight many of them aren't all that competent.

If you'd asked me the same question at the height of Ferguson's reign at Man U I would have been more likely to suspect corruption  :rant

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #352 on: January 2, 2024, 05:15:50 pm »
The Diaz penalty is early on though and before the ground was riled up and the players kicking off.

How could you have possibly not given that as a penalty though? It is stonewall.

Even Ratboy who was trying to smear Diaz for diving admits it is a penalty.

With the Arsenal handball and the Liverpool penalties, Ratboy attempts to change the narrative. It is crazy that without Ratboys bile then those decisions are crystal clear. His bias is crystal clear and like Taylor he should be taken off Liverpool games.

He reminds me of a bus driver mate who has had load of crashes but they 'were never his fault'. He said as soon as an accident happened he would shout out something like I can't believe that driver has werved into my lane thenn slammed on.

Without fail it would change the narrative and passengers on the bus would back him up. First impressions last.

For the Odegaard handball it was instantly 'he slipped so he might get away with it. For Diaz it was 'I know what he has done there' he knows he should have gone down. For Jota it was 'no not for me, I haven't got a good view but not for me'.

I guarantee if that was United he would be screaming for a penalty. If its Liverpool his instant reaction is why the decision shouldn't go our way.
The worst thing is that he has now built a narrative that means next time we will probably be fucked over again.

That is the problem with bias and why it needs rooting out. 
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #353 on: January 2, 2024, 05:21:43 pm »
You have access to his thought processes, and I don't. So I'm on weaker ground than you.

He did give the pen though. That's a fact.

Referees have openly admitted that they have given decisions to even things up or because they have lost the players on one team. Taylor would have been well aware that his bias wasn't going unnoticed.

As for giving the Pens both decisions were correct. He had a clear view of both incidents and there was contact both times. What was he supposed to do waive it away and then hope Attwell backed him up? 
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #354 on: January 2, 2024, 05:35:40 pm »
Anyone think we are destructing ourselves by showing such outright vitriol towards the refs?

The chants like 'Fuck off Taylor/Tierney' and 'You manc bastard' towards Taylor, Kavanagh, and Tierney. That is just going to turn them more against us. The argument is that they are already showing bias against us, but this sure as hell isn't going to help.

It'll be hard for them not to be bitter towards our fanbase when they hear chants like that. There is not a team in the league that is aiming specific chants at them like we are.

We're in a title race, and they could easily sway it against us with a decision. The fanbase is not exactly being smart in turning them against us even further.

The chants need to be put in the bin.
Don’t know how old you are, but…
“You’re a bastard referee”
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We’re all regularly heard at Anfield back in the day. Note though how this was before the days when refs became preening attention seekers, anxious to build their profiles for their post reffing career.

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #355 on: January 2, 2024, 05:37:21 pm »
The point is though that if he hadn't given the Jota penalty there wouldn't have been a massive uproar, there were no 'lifelines' needed as the fact that he did give it has been the subject of significant debate in itself.

He could quite easily have not given that penalty and the narrative would have been that he didn't see the contact and that the VAR didn't see it as a clear and obvious error.

If he was blatantly hacked down or something I'd agree with you but he wasn't, I can't comment on the Newcastle penalty as I've no idea what Howe was even referring to as I've no recollection of them wanting a penalty.



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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #356 on: January 2, 2024, 05:40:39 pm »
The one where Gomez was pole-axed and Klopp was doing his nut on the touchline?

That’s the chap. If you’re staring at a tackle like that in the position he was, and still don’t give it, it goes beyond incompetence.

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #357 on: January 2, 2024, 05:43:11 pm »
Is every fanbase who thinks that correct, or just ours?

I blame Clive Thomas.

He started it. ;D

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #358 on: January 2, 2024, 05:48:52 pm »
It has gone on in other big leagues in Europe but here, the "biggest" richest league in the world, with our own proven corrupt government facilitating state ownership by regimes who also consider corruption simply doing business, is somehow not tainted?

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #359 on: January 2, 2024, 06:00:16 pm »
How could you have possibly not given that as a penalty though? It is stonewall.

Even Ratboy who was trying to smear Diaz for diving admits it is a penalty.

With the Arsenal handball and the Liverpool penalties, Ratboy attempts to change the narrative. It is crazy that without Ratboys bile then those decisions are crystal clear. His bias is crystal clear and like Taylor he should be taken off Liverpool games.

He reminds me of a bus driver mate who has had load of crashes but they 'were never his fault'. He said as soon as an accident happened he would shout out something like I can't believe that driver has werved into my lane thenn slammed on.

Without fail it would change the narrative and passengers on the bus would back him up. First impressions last.

For the Odegaard handball it was instantly 'he slipped so he might get away with it. For Diaz it was 'I know what he has done there' he knows he should have gone down. For Jota it was 'no not for me, I haven't got a good view but not for me'.

I guarantee if that was United he would be screaming for a penalty. If its Liverpool his instant reaction is why the decision shouldn't go our way.
The worst thing is that he has now built a narrative that means next time we will probably be fucked over again.

That is the problem with bias and why it needs rooting out.

I agree with you about Neville 100% but the question isn’t whether the ex Man United player who ran the full length of the pitch to celebrate in front of our fans has a bias, as he clearly does - its whether the referee does.

As I said above, he’s given 16 fouls against us and 15 against Newcastle, 3 yellow cards against us and 5 against Newcastle as well as 2 penalties in our favour - those numbers don’t indicate anything untoward but I appreciate that it doesn’t account for how many he’s potentially let go against Newcastle.

I know that the ground was going mad at one stage but then on Boxing Day Turf Moor were signing ‘whose the scouser in the black’ at one stage, at Tierney of all people.

I haven’t watched the game back, when I was watching it it felt as though he was giving everything against us, but I watch the match desperate for us to win, which is not exactly the best position to judge a refereeing performance from.