Topic: The Labour Party (*)

[filopastry]

With the Labour support so low, it may be getting towards bare bones where there is little soft support left to fall away.

The Tories have such a lead, there is likely to be a lower turnout of their polled support as many can't be arsed as they are going to win anyway.

That's kind of my feeling on it as well.

That said I was looking at the tables on one of the polls yesterday and it was showing the % of Tory supporters who said they were certain to vote as higher than for Labour.

Probably a reflection of the fact that older voters nearly always vote and these days they usually vote Tory.

[Danny55]

I will take no pleasure in seeing Labour beaten, believe me. I won't shed any tears like I did in 2015 as this is fully expected but maybe, just maybe, the people who gave us this farce of a leader will start to get it when they see what their man has done. I doubt it. But I can still hope.

You're pinning this on the likes of me? Because I wanted something different? Because I saw social democracy not just being defeated but being crushed across the western world.

I sat through election nights under Brown and Miliband, they lost millions of votes between them as well. This party's problems are not solely down to 16-24 year old's like me who thought we might as well roll the dice and see what another approach could bring. The demise of the Labour Party did not come around when Corbyn was elected, this train has been heading towards the cliff for years.

[Alan_X]

You're pinning this on the likes of me? Because I wanted something different? Because I saw social democracy not just being defeated but being crushed across the western world.

I sat through election nights under Brown and Miliband, they lost millions of votes between them as well. This party's problems are not solely down to 16-24 year old's like me who thought we might as well roll the dice and see what another approach could bring. The demise of the Labour Party did not come around when Corbyn was elected, this train has been heading towards the cliff for years.

It really hasn't mate. The last election was winnable but we had the wrong Milliband in charge. The Unions cast their vote for the more left wing Milliband

[Danny55]

It really hasn't mate. The last election was winnable but we had the wrong Milliband in charge. The Unions cast their vote for the more left wing Milliband

I think the collapse of Scotland did for us at the last election, and that wouldn't have been prevented under a different Miliband.

[ShakaHislop]

Gisela Stuart has quit too.

Controversial Labour MP Gisela Stuart has told her CLP that she will not contest the next election. In 1997, her victory in Birmingham Edgbaston was the first big Labour gain of the night from the Tories and she was a symbol of the new wave of Labour MPs. Latterly however, as a prominent advocate of leaving the EU, she alienated many PLP colleagues and local former supporters.

This morning on the Today programme, she was unable to say she would back Jeremy Corbyn for PM. In her e-mail to her members she said,

“I wanted you to hear from me that I have decided not to contest the Birmingham Edgbaston constituency at the general election in June.

After 22 years of campaigning and 20 years of having had the privilege of being the MP for this diverse, forever surprising and wonderful marginal seat I know when it is time to stand down and pass on the baton.

Together we have done amazing things; things we never expected when I became the first “Labour gain” of the Labour 1997 landslide as well as the first ever Labour MP for Bartley Green, Edgbaston, Harborne and Quinton. We won local battles, brought people together, challenged established assumptions about voters (and sometimes our own) and won elections against Tories that we didn’t think were possible. But together we did it . We are Labour and our values are Labour.”

http://labour-uncut.co.uk/

[TravisBickle]

You're pinning this on the likes of me? Because I wanted something different? Because I saw social democracy not just being defeated but being crushed across the western world.

I sat through election nights under Brown and Miliband, they lost millions of votes between them as well. This party's problems are not solely down to 16-24 year old's like me who thought we might as well roll the dice and see what another approach could bring. The demise of the Labour Party did not come around when Corbyn was elected, this train has been heading towards the cliff for years.

 I don't blame Labour losing on Corbyn voters. Whoever lead the party was going to have a massive task on their hands after the 2015 shambles. But yes, I blame the potential wipeout on everyone who voted for Corbyn, especially the second time round. He was clearly never up for the job and voting for him was an act of self-indulgence, plain and simple.

[Sangria]

Well, I'll be banging on doors and doing everything I can to prevent a Tory landslide anyway. At least you got one over on the left though. And then in five years time when we come storming back with the same Social Democratic policies that have been rejected by voters across the western world we can repeat the cycle once more.

I take the approach that any Labour government is better than a ravenous right wing Tory one as well, I would just never take any pleasure in seeing us decimated.

That's not a feeling you share with the current Labour leadership, or the current Labour membership either. Anything is better than the last Labour government, especially that war criminal Blair. We need a proper left wing alternative, even if in opposition, rather than a Tory lite government that's no different from the Tories.

[TepidT2O]

That's not a feeling you share with the current Labour leadership, or the current Labour membership either. Anything is better than the last Labour government, especially that war criminal Blair. We need a proper left wing alternative, even if in opposition, rather than a Tory lite government that's no different from the Tories.

Which is nonsense...

The last labour government Tory light?

Minimum wage
Sure start
Waiting lists in NHS virtually gone
Crime down nearly 50%
NHS and school funding massively improved
Tax credits


Etc

[Danny55]

I don't blame Labour losing on Corbyn voters. Whoever lead the party was going to have a massive task on their hands after the 2015 shambles. But yes, I blame the potential wipeout on everyone who voted for Corbyn, especially the second time round. He was clearly never up for the job and voting for him was an act of self-indulgence, plain and simple.

We didn't exactly have a wealth of options did we? Corbyn or Smith...

The second leadership contest was a complete shambles from start to finish. If you're going to challenge the leader then at least put someone forward who has a chance of winning. All it did was to show how divided the party was and the polls have been abysmal since.

I'm not saying they were fantastic beforehand either but we weren't facing the doomsday scenario we are now.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Which is nonsense...

The last labour government Tory light?

Minimum wage
Sure start
Waiting lists in NHS virtually gone
Crime down nearly 50%
NHS and school funding massively improved
Tax credits


Etc

[Alan_X]

We didn't exactly have a wealth of options did we? Corbyn or Smith...

The second leadership contest was a complete shambles from start to finish. If you're going to challenge the leader then at least put someone forward who has a chance of winning. All it did was to show how divided the party was and the polls have been abysmal since.

I'm not saying they were fantastic beforehand either but we weren't facing the doomsday scenario we are now.

If Corbyn had done the decent thing and stood down there would have been a far better choice. Smith would have been a far better option than Corbyn but turkeys in the membership insisted on voting for the slaughterhouse. 

Did you vote for Corbyn in the second ballot?

Do you actually think he's a competent leader?

Do you really think the Tories are scared of him?

[TepidT2O]

Oops sorry ...

Missed the sarcasm!

[Sangria]

If Corbyn had done the decent thing and stood down there would have been a far better choice. Smith would have been a far better option than Corbyn but turkeys in the membership insisted on voting for the slaughterhouse. 

Did you vote for Corbyn in the second ballot?

Do you actually think he's a competent leader?

Do you really think the Tories are scared of him?

Why there is no excuse for those who voted for him second time round is because it followed his piece on 24th June 2016. Corbyn showed his true Europhobic colours that day, and the members still voted him in, in increased numbers. Corbyn has made Labour a Europhobic party, and the members agree with this new direction.

[Sangria]

We didn't exactly have a wealth of options did we? Corbyn or Smith...

The second leadership contest was a complete shambles from start to finish. If you're going to challenge the leader then at least put someone forward who has a chance of winning. All it did was to show how divided the party was and the polls have been abysmal since.

I'm not saying they were fantastic beforehand either but we weren't facing the doomsday scenario we are now.

One of them was a Europhobe, the other one wasn't. The members made their choice.

[TravisBickle]

We didn't exactly have a wealth of options did we? Corbyn or Smith...

The second leadership contest was a complete shambles from start to finish. If you're going to challenge the leader then at least put someone forward who has a chance of winning. All it did was to show how divided the party was and the polls have been abysmal since.

I'm not saying they were fantastic beforehand either but we weren't facing the doomsday scenario we are now.

 The rationale for voting Smith was that he wasn't Corbyn and doomsday might actually be avoided.

 Nobody had a chance of winning though, did they? The Labour Party has turned into a cult of personality where anyone standing up to Corbyn was seen as a neoliberal Blairite traitor.

 And yes, the doomsday scenario was very much on the cards before the "coup." It was on the cards from the moment it became clear he was going to win, which is exactly why I and so many others tried so hard to stop it. The "Blairites" have shut up, the media don't even bother attacking him any more... The reason Labour are doing so badly in the polls is because they don't like Jeremy Corbyn. It's that simple.

 He's a professional backbencher with zero gravitas, zero charisma and a track record as morally questionable as the most obscene Tory MPs. Not only is he way out of line with the public on defense, spending, immigration and welfare he has no ability to communicate effectively the ideas that people actually like.

 I mean really what the hell did you expect? For the British public to veer off to the left after endorsing the most right wing government since Thatcher? For a man with no experience of government to create a credible opposition? For the PLP to function when he didn't even have enough nominations to stand without insisting people give him a place on the ticket?

 This was blatant from day one. Agonisingly blatant. And now we're going to get destroyed, and that's because of Jeremy Corbyn and his supporters. Sorry. That's just the truth.

[Danny55]

If Corbyn had done the decent thing and stood down there would have been a far better choice. Smith would have been a far better option than Corbyn but turkeys in the membership insisted on voting for the slaughterhouse. 

Did you vote for Corbyn in the second ballot?

Do you actually think he's a competent leader?

Do you really think the Tories are scared of him?

I did vote for Corbyn in the second ballet because I was thoroughly pissed off with the PLP for the way it was all played out. What were we polling around that time? Maybe two or three points behind the Tories? A leadership challenge just wasn't necessary. It's not like we had the English Obama waiting in the wings to take over, it was Owen Smith. No matter what the outcome was of last summer the party was going to have an electoral mountain to climb. The public saw a party divided and since then the game has been up.

[zero zero]

Thanks for the replies, gents.

If you are in opposition and don't want an election to try to get into power, you are basically publicly admitting you are an unelectable mess

Surely it's better for the general public to think you're unelectable than giving them an opportunity to prove it without a shadow of a doubt?

It's not easy to discern a strategy.

Unless his team have some amazing trick up their sleeve that we've all missed, even the most optimistic forecast will be "We're going to end up with less MPs than we have now. And the Tories will have more than they have now.".

It's done now.

[Danny55]

The rationale for voting Smith was that he wasn't Corbyn and doomsday might actually be avoided.

 Nobody had a chance of winning though, did they? The Labour Party has turned into a cult of personality where anyone standing up to Corbyn was seen as a neoliberal Blairite traitor.

 And yes, the doomsday scenario was very much on the cards before the "coup." It was on the cards from the moment it became clear he was going to win, which is exactly why I and so many others tried so hard to stop it. The "Blairites" have shut up, the media don't even bother attacking him any more... The reason Labour are doing so badly in the polls is because they don't like Jeremy Corbyn. It's that simple.

 He's a professional backbencher with zero gravitas, zero charisma and a track record as morally questionable as the most obscene Tory MPs. Not only is he way out of line with the public on defense, spending, immigration and welfare he has no ability to communicate effectively the ideas that people actually like.

 I mean really what the hell did you expect? For the British public to veer off to the left after endorsing the most right wing government since Thatcher? For a man with no experience of government to create a credible opposition? For the PLP to function when he didn't even have enough nominations to stand without insisting people give him a place on the ticket?

 This was blatant from day one. Agonisingly blatant. And now we're going to get destroyed, and that's because of Jeremy Corbyn and his supporters. Sorry. That's just the truth.

Okay, I'll hold my hands up and say it was total naivety on my part. I know it's a complete disaster and Jeremy Corbyn has played a huge role in creating that. But going into the leadership contest we weren't polling a million miles behind the Tories. It wasn't the doomsday scenario it is now.

I don't think for one moment an Owen Smith lead opposition would be fairing any better, you will have a different opinion to that and think the policy of overturning Brexit would've been a vote winner. I'll tell you that the Tories would've destroyed him as the man who wants to go against the democratic will of the people.

[CornerFlag]

Gisela Stuart has quit too.

http://labour-uncut.co.uk/

Silver linings and all that.

[zero zero]

The second leadership contest was a complete shambles from start to finish.

The start being when Corbyn failed to stand down after losing a vote of no confidence 172-40. The decision to surround himself with the talentless and toxic is why he's failed to unite the PLP and the party.

[scouseman]

Feel for the party here if they did not back the election would be seen as not wanting power and the chance to get rid of the tories. Back the vote and its like chickens waiting for the slaughter house. No viable choices for the voters so really not sure what to do.

[TravisBickle]

Okay, I'll hold my hands up and say it was total naivety on my part. I know it's a complete disaster and Jeremy Corbyn has played a huge role in creating that. But going into the leadership contest we weren't polling a million miles behind the Tories. It wasn't the doomsday scenario it is now.

I don't think for one moment an Owen Smith lead opposition would be fairing any better, you will have a different opinion to that and think the policy of overturning Brexit would've been a vote winner. I'll tell you that the Tories would've destroyed him as the man who wants to go against the democratic will of the people.

 We were consistently behind the Tories at a stage of the electoral cycle where we should have been comfortably ahead. We might have momentarily narrowed the gap after the Brexit vote but the idea we were "neck and neck" as Corbyn likes to claim is utter nonsense.

 An Owen Smith Labour Party would still get beaten I'm sure, mate. But I highly doubt we'd be facing a wipeout of the kind we are doing currently. I'm not even sure we'd be having an election right now if it wasn't for the fact Corbyn is still leader...

[killer-heels]

Gisela Stuart has quit too.

http://labour-uncut.co.uk/

Great news. All we need now is Kate Hoey to leave or ideally get run over by a truck.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Great news. All we need now is Kate Hoey to leave or ideally get run over by a truck.

dont stop there, can think of 4 more who hopefully won't be MPs for much longer

[Lush is the best medicine...]

I earn less than a sixth of that. A quarter of that after tax. Pretty damn rich to me.

see what that gets you in London mate, all adds to a very easy narrative for the Tories to paint that labour hate not just big business but people who make good money (the 75% tax comment from the idiot in question will no doubt get brought up as well as the moronic Ł250k pay cap) - Tories can so easily spin it to 'if you have ambition to push yourself and enjoy your rewards labour will punish your success but we will allow you to enjoy your rewards' and it will work very nicely

[Libertine]

Gisela Stuart has quit too.

http://labour-uncut.co.uk/

Helps to unleash enormous damage on the country, then fucks off with a nice pension. Good riddence. The way things are going, she'll probably end up being deported anyway.

Great news. All we need now is Kate Hoey to leave or ideally get run over by a truck.

 

Or sail off into the sunset with her soulmate....



How any Labour voter can support her is beyond me.....

[Wabaloolah]

We were consistently behind the Tories at a stage of the electoral cycle where we should have been comfortably ahead. We might have momentarily narrowed the gap after the Brexit vote but the idea we were "neck and neck" as Corbyn likes to claim is utter nonsense.

 An Owen Smith Labour Party would still get beaten I'm sure, mate. But I highly doubt we'd be facing a wipeout of the kind we are doing currently. I'm not even sure we'd be having an election right now if it wasn't for the fact Corbyn is still leader...

oh you can guarantee there would have been no election without Corbyn as leader.

[Alan_X]

oh you can guarantee there would have been no election without Corbyn as leader.

Indeed. One of the most bizarre things I read today was that the Tories are worried that Corbyn is so shit that they may struggle to motivate their own base and may not get as many seats as they expect.

[classycarra]

Indeed. One of the most bizarre things I read today was that the Tories are worried that Corbyn is so shit that they may struggle to motivate their own base and may not get as many seats as they expect.

If I was a Tory strategist I wouldn't even bother unloading all the ammunition the have on Corbyn. Brits tend to sympathise with those so bad that they're embarrassingly pathetic. Just watch Saturday night TV for five minutes..

If I was Tory, I'd just leave him and McDonnell and his other cronies to embarrass themselves, and keep my hands clean

[Lush is the best medicine...]

If I was a Tory strategist I wouldn't even bother unloading all the ammunition the have on Corbyn. Brits tend to sympathise with those so bad that they're embarrassingly pathetic. Just watch Saturday night TV for five minutes..

the disgusting stuff the mail did in Ralph Miliband worked a treat, much like the bacon sandwich

[B0151?]

You know I've been wondering about how motivated Tory voters will be. Corbyn is unpopular but it's possible the most motivated voters will be the anti Brexit lot and they may go for the anti Tory vote even if it results in voting for Corbyn's party. Especially if local Labour MPs play it well.

Turnout will be pretty interesting. Do people really think this is a re-run of the referendum? Not sure they will. In that respect, Labour's actions in facilitating it could benefit them because voters don't really think that's at stake (you saw that angle with Yvette Cooper's question)... But then no doubt you can tell from here it could have cost them a lot of anti Brexit votes themselves.

Clutching at straws no doubt, May is pretty popular somehow.

[classycarra]

the disgusting stuff the mail did in Ralph Miliband worked a treat, much like the bacon sandwich

maybe with people who hate Labour. But I think it was his awful political posturing and lack of defending his party's record that worked more of a treat for the tories.

If anything, I thought he became more popular/'relatable' after those things about his dad and his sandwich. it was after those that the whole geek chic stuff came out, and the millifandom - as I said, Brits having their fun (seemingly with, but usually at the expense of) the embarrassingly incompetent.

[SP]

the disgusting stuff the mail did in Ralph Miliband worked a treat, much like the bacon sandwich

The Mail story did not do any real damage - there was a backlash against it.  The bacon sandwich was symptomatic of the malaise in the campaign rather than causal. If Labour would have communicated their key messages rather than twat about with SNP coalition theoretical and embarrassing monster rocks then the sandwich would just have been an ephemeral laugh. It does not help, but if the leadership does their job communicating their message, it does not hinder much either.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

The Mail story did not do any real damage - there was a backlash against it.  The bacon sandwich was symptomatic of the malaise in the campaign rather than causal. If Labour would have communicated their key messages rather than twat about with SNP coalition theoretical and embarrassing monster rocks then the sandwich would just have been an ephemeral laugh. It does not help, but if the leadership does their job communicating their message, it does not hinder much either.

id say that highlighted how weak he was as a leader, had they tried that on his brother he wouldn't have let it slide that much. But I would say it did turn a fair few undecideds though, or at least play a part in it.

[Alan_X]

the disgusting stuff the mail did in Ralph Miliband worked a treat, much like the bacon sandwich

I think they'll probably go all out to portray him as incompetent but dangerous. We haven't seen anything yet. Just think what they did to Kinnock and Blair. It will be full IRA, Hezbollah, nuclear disarmament, Militant 1970s throwback, National Anthem, wrecked his marriage rather than send his kid to selective school... and on and on... Ralph Milliband and the bacon sandwich were fabricated stories. With Corbyn they'll just print his own words.

When members voted for Corbyn, what the fuck did they think would happen during an election?

[Alan_X]

The Mail story did not do any real damage - there was a backlash against it... 

That's true and it as because the Ralph Milliband story was obviously slanderous. A story saying Corbyn hates his country could be backed up by quotes from one of his many columns in the Morning Star.

And for Johnno, Fats, Dave and Geoff wherever he is - it will be despicable and abhorent and wrong but they will do it anyway.

[classycarra]

That's true and it as because the Ralph Milliband story was obviously slanderous. A story saying Corbyn hates his country could be backed up by quotes from one of his many columns in the Morning Star.

And for Johnno, Fats, Dave and Geoff wherever he is - it will be despicable and abhorent and wrong but they will do it anyway.

Spot on Alan. Though in place of wrong, you could put "correct". Or "verbatim". "Representative" or "accurate" too. That's the problem with publicly stating such bullshit, you have to take responsibility for it (or hope the lies work and the 'honest' branding sticks)

[SP]

Spot on Alan. Though in place of wrong, you could put "correct". Or "verbatim". "Representative" or "accurate" too. That's the problem with publicly stating such bullshit, you have to take responsibility for it (or hope the lies work and the 'honest' branding sticks)

Alan meant morally wrong rather than factually inaccurate, but I suspect you knew that.

[filopastry]

I think they'll probably go all out to portray him as incompetent but dangerous. We haven't seen anything yet. Just think what they did to Kinnock and Blair. It will be full IRA, Hezbollah, nuclear disarmament, Militant 1970s throwback, National Anthem, wrecked his marriage rather than send his kid to selective school... and on and on... Ralph Milliband and the bacon sandwich were fabricated stories. With Corbyn they'll just print his own words.

When members voted for Corbyn, what the fuck did they think would happen during an election?

Yep.

I think there is a goal amongst some Tories to finish off Labour as a serious electoral force for the forseeable future in this election, I don't think that things will get quite that bad but honestly its not impossible.

I hope the sort of numbers we are seeing for Labour in the polls now are down to the hardcore support which is unlikely to drop any further, although the fact that a fair proportion of people who say they are still going to vote Labour can't say that they think Corbyn would be a better PM than May would concern me if I was running the Labour campaign.

[classycarra]

Alan meant morally wrong rather than factually inaccurate, but I suspect you knew that.

Indeed - though I'd probably argue against that too.

Maybe I'm being a blindly optimistic democrat but despite my tribalism in favour of Labour, I still don't think it's morally wrong for newspapers to dig up accurate political dirt from politicians careers serving the public.