Topic: UAPs over America: real or balloons??

["Bobber" Thanks :)]

It doesn't actually make either more likely.

It just means a few % of cases still remain unexplained.
There may very well be perfectly natural explanations and I would say that is the most probable outcome in all cases.

You’re right, neither is more likely and we can’t discount the ET hypothesis just because we think things are impossible. That famous quote “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic”

You may be right and certainly that’s the safer bet.

[Alan_X]

Getting a bit long-winded now, isn't it? You going to go back
and try and debunk everyone ever involved in UAP reporting? Jesus H.

Do you think they let just anyone write an investigative piece for
The New York Times? Those journalists all have creds, you can look them up.

Now let me surprise you, journalism does not pay very well!
So often if you have contacts and expertise in a particular field, as a journalist you might
publish a book to earn some extra cash.

Keane writes a book on UFOs. Wow, shocker.

So did Ross Coultart. He speaks a lot about the topic now on Twitter.
He is claiming to have heard about people testifying to Congress.

Again, we go back, there is no smoking gun yet.

I don't need to hear from Mick flipping West, since I do not claim either of those
incidents presents inconvertible proof of something which would upset your belief systems.

So we hear pilots will testify. That will be interesting in open Congress. I would love more people to
hear Ryan Graves: not even Alan X could find dirt on him. He doesn't even want to be there, he's worries about
Aviation safety. The guy is a boyscout.

I will list out several of Ryan Graves' podcasts in another post.

He's a bucket of cold water for many of the motherfuckers who ain't got their heads set to receive.

It's irrelevant whether I 'find dirt' on Ryan Graves or anyone else. The bottom line is the available physical and video evidence and that bottom line shows nothing that can't be explained with a bit of analysis or remains 'unknown' because the information is poor.

Let's see what comes from the upcoming release of information by the US Government.

In the meantime, do you believe the gimbal and tictac videos show objects moving with amazing speed and performing impossible manouvres (the pilot's version) or the detailed analysis and modelling based on phsyical evidence, data from the cockpit display and the optics and sensors of the plane's tracking systems?

It's disappointing you;re dismissive of the work dome by someone like Mick West. He's doing the work that the UFO believers should be doing. If they gave a shiny shite about being credible they would do what a good skeptic would do and analyse the fuck out of their own evidence to make sure it stands up.

If you engaged with those videos you would be able to understand why every elongated white object flashing across the sky means nothing at all and is almost certainly explained by something mundane.

So much of the 'evidence' is video or photographic, often with night vision or thermal imaging, that a deep dive into optics, video and digital photography is an essential tool of you want to understand what you're looking at. And so on...

You might still disagree with people like him but have you engaged properly and have you understood? Otherwise it's all trust and belief.

[Alan_X]

You’re right, neither is more likely and we can’t discount the ET hypothesis just because we think things are impossible. That famous quote “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic”

You may be right and certainly that’s the safer bet.

The Arthur C Clarke quote doesn't really apply here though. It's backwards. People who want to believe in magic (extra terrestrial visitations) are interpreting essentially mundane observations as incredible advanced technology.

So a moth flitting about in a night vision camera becomes a distant alien craft moving with impossible control and accelleration.

A bit of white fluff caught on the wind caught by a drone's camera turns into a UFO travelling at 10x the speed of sound...

And so on.

Not directed at you but can we please all stop with the "US pilots are trained observers" shite.

This is the transcript and video of the March 28 2003 "blue on blue" incident where A-10s from the 190th spotted a column of British vehicles and attacked them despite have clear visual on them and seeing the orange markings that identified them as friendly. Lance-Corporal Matty Hull was killed in the incident.

Pilots are not superhuman. They are people like the rest of us and make mistakes. The actual engagement is about 6 minutes into the video.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Transcript_of_the_'friendly_fire'_incident_video_(28_March_2003)

[Skagger]

When Obama said "there's footage and records of objects in the skies that we don't know exactly what they are" I raised an eyebrow, I haven't paid close attention to this and from reading this thread it seems metabunk is able to provide a good explanation for a lot of this stuff, but Alan one thing that puzzles me is surely the people who operate this equipment know exactly how it works? If there are people whose profession it is to analyse the data can't find a good explanation it does feel a bit odd, surely they've ruled out all the simple explanations before arriving at "fuck knows"?

[Skagger]

Maybe I'm under rating crowd sourced knowledge and overestimating the USG's powers of deduction, it's definitely the more probable answer than aliens obviously, but it feels odd for them to publicly say they don't know when people on a forum are able to work it out pretty easily

[Alan_X]

Maybe I'm under rating crowd sourced knowledge and overestimating the USG's powers of deduction, it's definitely the more probable answer than aliens obviously, but it feels odd for them to publicly say they don't know when people on a forum are able to work it out pretty easily

The US Government is not a single entity and it's worth remembering that the original investigation of the Tic Tac video was carried out by AAWSAP BAASS in 2009. In other words, the same clowns who were responsible for the Skinwalker Ranch lunacy (including dino-beavers and werewolves) were the people who were convinced the Tic Tac "exhibited advanced propulsion capability." The author of the report was Jay Stratton who visited Skinwalker ranch and believed he was infected by a poltergeist that terrorised his family.

The source for this is Chapter 13 of "Skinwalkers at the Pentagon" by James Lacatski, Colin Kelleher and George Knapp. Lacatski was AAWSAP Program Manager at the defence Intelligence Agency. The book has a foreword by Senator Harry Reid.

Do I find it surprising that a Government program set up by people already convinced about the existence of UFOs, dino-beavers and wrewolves failed to find a rational expanation for something and a group of skeptics did a better job? Not really.

[lobsterboy]

You’re right, neither is more likely and we can’t discount the ET hypothesis just because we think things are impossible. That famous quote “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic”

You may be right and certainly that’s the safer bet.

I'm not discounting ET's existence. I think its highly likely that there is other life in our universe. I just don't think its travelling here.
As for the government, well they've been practising misinformation for decades, but to hide their tech not aliens.
Jack Woolams, USAF test pilot used to wear a gorilla mask and bowler hat while testing the jet engine P59 during WW2, buzzing other pilots in it, waving then flying off.

["Bobber" Thanks :)]

The Arthur C Clarke quote doesn't really apply here though. It's backwards. People who want to believe in magic (extra terrestrial visitations) are interpreting essentially mundane observations as incredible advanced technology.

So a moth flitting about in a night vision camera becomes a distant alien craft moving with impossible control and acceleration.

A bit of white fluff caught on the wind caught by a drone's camera turns into a UFO travelling at 10x the speed of sound...

And so on.

Not directed at you but can we please all stop with the "US pilots are trained observers" shite.

This is the transcript and video of the March 28 2003 "blue on blue" incident where A-10s from the 190th spotted a column of British vehicles and attacked them despite have clear visual on them and seeing the orange markings that identified them as friendly. Lance-Corporal Matty Hull was killed in the incident.

Pilots are not superhuman. They are people like the rest of us and make mistakes. The actual engagement is about 6 minutes into the video.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Transcript_of_the_'friendly_fire'_incident_video_(28_March_2003)

I don’t know Alan, some people may want to believe but others don’t particularly have a desire to believe, but find that there are things that seemingly defy an explanation with our current accepted understanding of reality. But you do have a very fixed opinion that everything has a mundane explanation so I accept that from you, we won’t agree.

I myself, go with the eye witnesses, sensors, radars and gun camera footage of the Nimitz battle group who were there until proven otherwise with better/conclusive evidence. I take your point that everyone including professional observers are not infallible and can make mistakes. Wonder if the additional classified data will see the light of day such as “look on the AESA, there’s a whole fleet of them” and the reported sensor/radar evidence of craft dropping from 80k to sea level in seconds?

Do you have a theory for the off-lining of entire Minuteman ICBM silos at numerous bases? Essentially the incidents covered by the Robert Hastings book?

["Bobber" Thanks :)]

I'm not discounting ET's existence. I think its highly likely that there is other life in our universe. I just don't think its travelling here.
As for the government, well they've been practising misinformation for decades, but to hide their tech not aliens.
Jack Woolams, USAF test pilot used to wear a gorilla mask and bowler hat while testing the jet engine P59 during WW2, buzzing other pilots in it, waving then flying off.

I agree on the reason that it provides the perfect cover to hide their tech.

[Skagger]

I don’t know Alan, some people may want to believe but others don’t particularly have a desire to believe, but find that there are things that seemingly defy an explanation with our current accepted understanding of reality. But you do have a very fixed opinion that everything has a mundane explanation so I accept that from you, we won’t agree.

I myself, go with the eye witnesses, sensors, radars and gun camera footage of the Nimitz battle group who were there until proven otherwise with better/conclusive evidence. I take your point that everyone including professional observers are not infallible and can make mistakes. Wonder if the additional classified data will see the light of day such as “look on the AESA, there’s a whole fleet of them” and the reported sensor/radar evidence of craft dropping from 80k to sea level in seconds?

Do you have a theory for the off-lining of entire Minuteman ICBM silos at numerous bases? Essentially the incidents covered by the Robert Hastings book?

Has there been any incidents where there is publicly available data from different sources?  For example footage and radar data, or even eye witness testimony and radar data from the same incident? 

I'm asking because a lot of people close to me lost their heads during the pandemic with a wide variety of nonsense, with 5G etc etc etc a quick Google and it was easily identified as bollocks, but when I was sent that clip of Obama I did a cursory scratch of the surface and on a skim read it did seem like there were a lot more credible people saying something was a bit odd versus lunatics talking about microchips in vaccines or whatever.

Alan has succinctly shown why the motives of people pushing some of this are questionable which is why I'm curious if any of these have more than one source of evidence of something currently having occurred?

["Bobber" Thanks :)]

Has there been any incidents where there is publicly available data from different sources?  For example footage and radar data, or even eye witness testimony and radar data from the same incident? 

I'm asking because a lot of people close to me lost their heads during the pandemic with a wide variety of nonsense, with 5G etc etc etc a quick Google and it was easily identified as bollocks, but when I was sent that clip of Obama I did a cursory scratch of the surface and on a skim read it did seem like there were a lot more credible people saying something was a bit odd versus lunatics talking about microchips in vaccines or whatever.

Alan has succinctly shown why the motives of people pushing some of this are questionable which is why I'm curious if any of these have more than one source of evidence of something currently having occurred?

Yeah completely agree on all that 5G, vaccines, microchips etc bollocks. I can’t think of a single conspiracy outside of this topic I’ve ever given any credence too, whether that’s faked moon landings or 9/11.

Off the top of my head, the best stuff publicly available is going to be Nimitz, the Omaha incident of 100 objects swarming Navy ships and the USS Russell incident of 2019. The DOD agents held that one up as a bokeh effect to debunk it but seemingly since, have rowed back on what they said. And it’s supported by numerous people on the ship at the time. And I understand lots of multiple radar, sensor evidence but I’m not really familiar with the details. But no absolute incontrovertible evidence, it’s all a combination of radar, gun sight, sensor and eye witness, but no indisputable close up 4K footage or smoking gun.

The Ariel School incident is very compelling based on 60 kids reporting the same thing they all saw that day. But a lot of people will dismiss that just because it’s kids and I suppose no proof or data at all.

There’s a lot of credible people saying something, you can choose to think hang on there’s something up or dismiss them.

One very good book to read is by Patrick Jackson called Quantum Paranormal: A 21st Century Analysis of the Paranormal Phenomena. It’s a very original and intriguing take on what’s behind the silver spheres such as the Mosul Orb and the silver sphere video shown above a war zone last month in the UAP briefing. He could be on to something or not, but I found it a refreshing original take.

["Bobber" Thanks :)]

The Chris Lehto stuff on the Ukrainian UAPs is very good, full of scientific and sensor study by the Ukrainian astronomers. Most of it went over my head. Avi Loeb dismissed it as artillery in a war zone, which no doubt Mick West would, but the Ukrainian astronomers refuted that and provided further science backed evidence to refute it. Chris Lehto was quite critical of Avi Loebs dismissive stance on it. Make of it what you will

[Dr. Beaker]

The Chris Lehto stuff on the Ukrainian UAPs is very good, full of scientific and sensor study by the Ukrainian astronomers. Most of it went over my head. Avi Loeb dismissed it as artillery in a war zone, which no doubt Mick West would, but the Ukrainian astronomers refuted that and provided further science backed evidence to refute it. Chris Lehto was quite critical of Avi Loebs dismissive stance on it. Make of what you will

Well why didn't you get some bladdy photos then!

["Bobber" Thanks :)]

Well why didn't you get some bladdy photos then!

Haha

[Alan_X]

I don’t know Alan, some people may want to believe but others don’t particularly have a desire to believe, but find that there are things that seemingly defy an explanation with our current accepted understanding of reality. But you do have a very fixed opinion that everything has a mundane explanation so I accept that from you, we won’t agree.

I myself, go with the eye witnesses, sensors, radars and gun camera footage of the Nimitz battle group who were there until proven otherwise with better/conclusive evidence. I take your point that everyone including professional observers are not infallible and can make mistakes. Wonder if the additional classified data will see the light of day such as “look on the AESA, there’s a whole fleet of them” and the reported sensor/radar evidence of craft dropping from 80k to sea level in seconds?

Do you have a theory for the off-lining of entire Minuteman ICBM silos at numerous bases? Essentially the incidents covered by the Robert Hastings book?

I do have a fixed opinion, best summed up by the Carl Sagan quote: “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence...”

Given the immense distances involved, the idea that an alien civilisation would make the multiple journeys across interstellar or intergalactic space in order to somehow report back to their home planet is an extraordinary claim.

My starting point many years ago was that it was possible. That was influenced by a love of science fiction and books like Chariots of the Gods. But the more I looked the more that extraaordinary evidence disappeared into the distance. My skepticism went into overdrive after 9/11 - responding to videos like Loose Change. For a few years on here I fielded every question and any claim from the Truthers and there was nothing that couldn't be explained.

I've done the same with the Moon Landings and other conspiracy theories. I know I won't persuade the majority of believers, although I have changed a few minds. I do it because there is always the possibility that one day there might be some evidence that it's true. That's skepticism and critical thinking.

My little bit of work on the Mosul Orb is now up on Metabunk. It's a hypothesis that fits all of the evidence about the location, date and time of day, location of the drone (distance from the target and altitude), the tight field of view of the camera system and other factors. All of the information was sourced from the data on the screen by others on the site.

https://www.metabunk.org/threads/mosul-sphere.12850/post-290335

My best guess is that it's a balloon (Peshmerga shot down Dora the Explorer helium balloons that ISIS were using for surveillance) but it could be any spherical, highly reflective object at around 1500m altitude.

[thejbs]

Fair enough, not going to argue against you when you find it completely ludicrous, that’s where you’re at.

I wouldn’t say I’m a believer in anything, but equally nothing is really off the table until proven otherwise. My position is just the conclusion I have come from the historical FOIA documents, sensor data and witness testimony available.

Yes, they say 90% of it can be explained with an earthly explanation and that’s true, but 10% can’t be and that’s the part to be focussed on.

That's switching the burden of proof, just like followers of religions do. What is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Nothing is on the table until proof exists. 

[Alan_X]

Yeah completely agree on all that 5G, vaccines, microchips etc bollocks. I can’t think of a single conspiracy outside of this topic I’ve ever given any credence too, whether that’s faked moon landings or 9/11.

Off the top of my head, the best stuff publicly available is going to be Nimitz, the Omaha incident of 100 objects swarming Navy ships and the USS Russell incident of 2019. The DOD agents held that one up as a bokeh effect to debunk it but seemingly since, have rowed back on what they said. And it’s supported by numerous people on the ship at the time. And I understand lots of multiple radar, sensor evidence but I’m not really familiar with the details. But no absolute incontrovertible evidence, it’s all a combination of radar, gun sight, sensor and eye witness, but no indisputable close up 4K footage or smoking gun.

The Ariel School incident is very compelling based on 60 kids reporting the same thing they all saw that day. But a lot of people will dismiss that just because it’s kids and I suppose no proof or data at all.

There’s a lot of credible people saying something, you can choose to think hang on there’s something up or dismiss them.

One very good book to read is by Patrick Jackson called Quantum Paranormal: A 21st Century Analysis of the Paranormal Phenomena. It’s a very original and intriguing take on what’s behind the silver spheres such as the Mosul Orb and the silver sphere video shown above a war zone last month in the UAP briefing. He could be on to something or not, but I found it a refreshing original take.

Sorry mate, but I just watched a video with Patrick Jackson and it's laughable. Apparently he has a downed "Type 3 Foo Fighter sphere" recovered from someone's attic and he tests the Gamma ray output using his iPhone. He says type 3 Spheres are responsible for ghosts and haunted houses for... reasons... with gamma radiation of 1,000 CPM. No... really...

That's the problem with ufology. On the skeptic side you have people doing thorough analysis and on the other you have dino-beavers and Foo Fighter spheres causing hauntings.

["Bobber" Thanks :)]

Sorry mate, but I just watched a video with Patrick Jackson and it's laughable. Apparently he has a downed "Type 3 Foo Fighter sphere" recovered from someone's attic and he tests the Gamma ray output using his iPhone. He says type 3 Spheres are responsible for ghosts and haunted houses for... reasons... with gamma radiation of 1,000 CPM. No... really...

That's the problem with ufology. On the skeptic side you have people doing thorough analysis and on the other you have dino-beavers and Foo Fighter spheres causing hauntings.

I haven’t watched any of his videos, only read the book last year. I enjoyed it and was left feeling there’s something to these spheres (it was the first I became aware of these spheres) I must admit I don’t know anything about science really to be able to look into his theory.

A couple of Mosul Orb like spheres here. Are these the same object? Just a balloon? Looks like a weird balloon to my untrained eye

https://www.colinandrews.net/Orb-UFO-BEAMS-CheesefootHead.html
https://www.express.co.uk/news/weird/728422/Metallic-ball-UFO-orb-drone-Kosovo-MUFON

[thejbs]

I haven’t watched any of his videos, only read the book last year. I enjoyed it and was left feeling there’s something to these spheres (it was the first I became aware of these spheres) I must admit I don’t know anything about science really to be able to look into his theory.

A couple of Mosul Orb like spheres here. Are these the same object? Just a balloon? Looks like a weird balloon to my untrained eye

https://www.colinandrews.net/Orb-UFO-BEAMS-CheesefootHead.html
https://www.express.co.uk/news/weird/728422/Metallic-ball-UFO-orb-drone-Kosovo-MUFON

I could make you 50 of these tomorrow using a petanque ball and my camera at just the right settings.

[Jiminy Cricket]

I haven’t watched any of his videos, only read the book last year. I enjoyed it and was left feeling there’s something to these spheres (it was the first I became aware of these spheres) I must admit I don’t know anything about science really to be able to look into his theory.

A couple of Mosul Orb like spheres here. Are these the same object? Just a balloon? Looks like a weird balloon to my untrained eye

https://www.colinandrews.net/Orb-UFO-BEAMS-CheesefootHead.html
https://www.express.co.uk/news/weird/728422/Metallic-ball-UFO-orb-drone-Kosovo-MUFON

The headline on the page is pretty funny:

If This Is A Real Orb Its The Best Photograph Yet Taken of One. Orbs Like
This Have Been Seen Many Times Around Crop Circles.
This was seen during July 2009 next to Cheesefoot Head and The Area
Known as The Winchester Cluster.

As though adding that 'orbs are seen many times around crop circles' somehow adds weight to their claims.

["Bobber" Thanks :)]

I could make you 50 of these tomorrow using a petanque ball and my camera at just the right settings.

Fair enough, quite easy to dismiss, perhaps pretty weak photos I guess.

[lionel_messias]

Alan, I read a couple of your responses and you are a serious person so good to engage
with you on this.

It's late so I have to rest.

Skeptics will NOT like this but Gary Nolan's comments here will pass without comment:

https://twitter.com/MikeColangelo/status/1659300376393261057?s=20

["Bobber" Thanks :)]

Alan, I read a couple of your responses and you are a serious person so good to engage
with you on this.

It's late so I have to rest.

Skeptics will NOT like this but Gary Nolan's comments here will pass without comment:

https://twitter.com/MikeColangelo/status/1659300376393261057?s=20

Saw this earlier, a serious scientist making serious claims. People like this are putting their necks on the chopping block and risking their reputations. Surely they would only do so if they are pretty confident on what they are claiming and that it will be backed up soon.

["Bobber" Thanks :)]

https://twitter.com/conterammundi/status/1659338702894641157?s=61

Reaction to Mick Wests response to what Garry Nolan said.

[Jiminy Cricket]

https://twitter.com/conterammundi/status/1659338702894641157?s=61

Reaction to Mick Wests response to what Garry Nolan said.

So what!? How does that refute Mick West's statement that Garry Nolan has failed to provide any hard evidence? Whereas, West's analysis is based upon hard evidence, where he describes - in detail - his methodology so that anyone with an ounce of motivation can (and should) critique his methodology (where lacking) and publish their own results.

Garry Nolan, as a scientist, should know better. But for some reason, he doesn't. That's a huge red flag in of itself because Nolan is surely not ignorant of the scientific method.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Fucking hilarious:

https://twitter.com/stretch570/status/1659340303768092672

Stretch
@stretch570
Mr. Butt, did you happen to see the supposed 4chan leak? Screams larp but has some interesting tidbits in there, UAP as NHI drones and such

richard butt
@conterammundi
Sorry I haven’t seen that.

Stretch
@stretch570
The gist was a guy said he worked for CR team, hinted it was LM. Giant UFO is resident under Bermuda triangle which makes craft for specific needs. Basically a short order cook for UFOs.

4Chan leak: check

Giant UFO: check

Bermuda: check

[Alan_X]

Alan, I read a couple of your responses and you are a serious person so good to engage
with you on this.

It's late so I have to rest.

Skeptics will NOT like this but Gary Nolan's comments here will pass without comment:

https://twitter.com/MikeColangelo/status/1659300376393261057?s=20

No problem - it's interesting to engage with people who have far more faith in this than I do.

Unsurprisingly, I don't put a lot of stock in what Garry Nolan has to say. In the first place I don't understand why a biologist would be involved in materials research.

Here's a Daily Mirror article where he claims to have used Multiplex Ion Beam Imaging to examine material from downed UAPs.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news/wreckage-mysterious-ufo-crashes-could-24930249

A few points - MIBI is used to examine organic tissues. Why would he be given these materials and why wouldn't the Government use appropriate technology to assess these incredibly valuable artefacts?

https://www.kennedy.ox.ac.uk/platforms-and-technologies/digital-pathology/multiplexed-ion-beam-imaging-mibiscope

When Dr Nolan placed some of the fragments in the vacuum chamber of his instrument, he was astonished to find their composition unlike any other metal.

He said: “If you’re talking about an advanced material from an advanced civilisation, you’re talking about something that I’ll just call an ultra-material.

“It’s something which has properties where somebody is putting it together again at an atomic scale.

“We’re building our world with 80 elements, somebody else is building the world with 253 different isotopes.”

The scientists discovered that this material was manufactured and not natural.

Fascinating stuff. I suppose as a biologist he wouldn't be expected to know the difference between an element and an isotope. Or that there are 118 elements not 80. Of those, 92 are naturally occuring and the rest are artificial. Of those 92 elements there are 254 known stable isotopes.

Periodic table:


Isotopes:


I watched some of that video and Nolan comes across as a massive bullshitter I'm afraid. He's trading on the authority of a specialism completely unrelated to the things he's claiming to be involved in. 

*edit - what Jiminy said.

*edit/edit - Nolan claims he discovered metallic "ultra-materials" in his MIBIscope. As we know how the elements are built up he should be able to say where these "ultra-materials fit into the periodic table and what properties they would have.

Where are the gaps in the table where a new element would fit? Maybe he means these new elements are beyond atomic number 118 (Oganesson). At this end of the periodic table the elements are incredibly radioactive and have half-lives measured in milliseconds.

And what's really pathetic (sorry there's no other word) is that there are real advances in materials by human material scientists but they are to do with alloys and other composite materials. Nolan just has a half-arsed basic knowledge of elements.

[Alan_X]

So what!? How does that refute Mick West's statement that Garry Nolan has failed to provide any hard evidence? Whereas, West's analysis is based upon hard evidence, where he describes - in detail - his methodology so that anyone with an ounce of motivation can (and should) critique his methodology (where lacking) and publish their own results.

Garry Nolan, as a scientist, should know better. But for some reason, he doesn't. That's a huge red flag in of itself because Nolan is surely not ignorant of the scientific method.

Exactly.

Although Michael has me blocked I’m going to address his claims and know that it will make its way to him.

- These aren’t just stories, they are stories with multi-sensor data and physical materials to accompany the stories.

- The government has physical evidence of non-human technological objects/devices/craft, to include objects, devices, and craft.

- These are not just Garry’s stories, there are also sworn attestations from  individuals who worked, both past and present, UAP recovery and crash retrieval programs, reverse engineering programs, and materials exploitation programs.

There is a PLETHORA of hard evidence. Remember: Mick has zero authority to make the claims he makes here.

I love the fact that he says Mick West has "zero authority" to talk about someone on the internet talking about something he's heard from a self-confessed insider with no relevant qualifications and no physical evidence.

It's all Chinese whispers underpinned by the Argument from Authority.

[lobsterboy]

Saw this earlier, a serious scientist making serious claims. People like this are putting their necks on the chopping block and risking their reputations. Surely they would only do so if they are pretty confident on what they are claiming and that it will be backed up soon.

It happens all the time.
James Tour is a chemist but pushes intelligent design nonsense to America via The Discovery Institute.

["Bobber" Thanks :)]

Fucking hilarious:

https://twitter.com/stretch570/status/16593403037680926724Chan leak: check

Giant UFO: check

Bermuda: check

Not sure why you have to be so confrontational, demeaning and aggressive in your replies? Have a smoke or a chill, you’ll have a heart attack. I find people who behave like this and ridicule people who are just curious, is usually because they can’t accept their world view might have been wrong all their lives.

You talk about wanting hard evidence then proceed to cherry pick gossip out of comments.

In reply to Alan’s more measured and less angry reply, on your point about querying why a biologist is involved in  materials research, my understanding is he is involved from the perspective of the health effects of military personnel such as pilots who have been in close proximity to UAP and people who have worked on materials and apparently suffered brain damage. Obviously I can’t critique his work, but it’s been published.

Alan, on a more fundamental level, I just simply can’t get my head around, how someone with the reputation of Garry Nolan, whose obviously a more brilliant mind than any of us here would put his reputation on the line just to run massive bullshit? That just doesn’t stack up in my mind.

["Bobber" Thanks :)]

Exactly.

I love the fact that he says Mick West has "zero authority" to talk about someone on the internet talking about something he's heard from a self-confessed insider with no relevant qualifications and no physical evidence.

It's all Chinese whispers underpinned by the Argument from Authority.

Just on your point about Chinese whispers, yes totally agree it seems like that. I perhaps just find its hard to believe it’s without foundation, there’s no smoke without fire etc. But it does need to be backed up soon. People like myself will probably take a break from it if nothing substantial comes of it all within a year.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Not sure why you have to be so confrontational, demeaning and aggressive in your replies? Have a smoke or a chill, you’ll have a heart attack.

RAWK is not my forum, and - unlike Alan - I am not on the team here. I mention this because I run my own forum and there I take the time to properly critique such matters (such as chemtrails). At RAWK, I am less invested, and Alan is better at it than me.

You talk about wanting hard evidence then proceed to cherry pick gossip out of comments.

There was no evidence presented to critique. So, I wrote that the tweet is 'fucking hilarious' because it is fucking hilarious.

It is up to me what I might take seriously enough to properly critique. And what I find so lacking in argument as to find highly amusing and ridicule. Especially when it is a prime example of muddled thinking presented as a serious comment.

PS Why did you think I was angry? I was, actually, amused!

["Bobber" Thanks :)]

RAWK is not my forum, and - unlike Alan - I am not on the team here. I mention this because I run my own forum and there I take the time to properly critique such matters (such as chemtrails). At RAWK, I am less invested, and Alan is better at it than me.There was no evidence presented to critique. So, I wrote that the tweet is 'fucking hilarious' because is fucking hilarious.

It is up to me what I might take seriously enough to properly critique. And what I find so lacking in argument as to find highly amusing and ridicule. Especially when it is a prime example of muddled thinking presented as a serious comment.

PS Why did you think I was angry? I was, actually, amused!

Guess that’s how it reads to me.

You find it hilarious but yet hold up Mick West as the source of truth who suggested the tic tac could have been seagulls? And that the 60 Zimbabwean children saw a hippie van and puppets? Come on man, anyone who holds up Mick Wests analysis as hard evidence alone to debunk something outright can’t be taken seriously either. Debunking isn’t exactly the scientific approach either. He seems to explain everything in a vacuum without considering the other corroborating evidence, such as the eyewitnesses, radar and sensor info.

There was a podcast with Mick West and two proper people who knew physics and they absolutely bamboozled him. I’ll have to try and find which one it was.

Anyway, that comment aside, I don’t enjoy confrontation, but do enjoy debate and discussion, we seem to come from opposite starting points and that’s fine.

[Dr. Beaker]

This is all as pointless as arguing about religion. Why don't you all take a break for a year. If real evidence emerges it will smack the whole world right in the mush, you will not have to go looking for it. If nothing emerges then it's jam tomorrow again for those who want it.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Guess that’s how it reads to me.

You find it hilarious but yet hold up Mick West as the source of truth who suggested the tic tac could have been seagulls? And that the 60 Zimbabwean children saw a hippie van and puppets? Come on man, anyone who holds up Mick Wests analysis as hard evidence alone to debunk something outright can’t be taken seriously either. Debunking isn’t exactly the scientific approach either.

I have seen very little of Mick West's output. But I did watch the video Alan linked where West describes what seems a very plausible explanation of the Tic Tac object. West provides a very detailed explanation of his analysis, but as far as I can determine, Nolan has consistently failed to provide any hard evidence, or any kind of analysis which conforms to anything approaching the scientific method with regard to UFOs, exotic materials, etc.

Anyway, that comment aside, I don’t enjoy confrontation, but do enjoy debate and discussion, we seem to come from opposite starting points and that’s fine.

I was about to write that I did not reference you (and did not in my comments today - though I did reply to your post) - I did reference Richard Butt, from the tweet you linked. And I posted this, yesterday:

https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=353922.msg18867690#msg18867690

I responded with a comment about the funny headline at the webpage you linked. I don't know why you have taken my comments personally. I have little patience for ridiculous argument. If I choose to ridicule ridiculous argument, it should surely come as little surprise.

[Jiminy Cricket]

This is all as pointless as arguing about religion. Why don't you all take a break for a year. If real evidence emerges it will smack the whole world right in the mush, you will not have to go looking for it. If nothing emerges then it's jam tomorrow again for those who want it.

The beliefs around this stuff are religious in nature. They are also - as someone commented earlier in this thread - conspiratorial. So, religion on steroids. It is the conspiratorial nature of the arguments which catch my attention.

["Bobber" Thanks :)]

This is all as pointless as arguing about religion. Why don't you all take a break for a year. If real evidence emerges it will smack the whole world right in the mush, you will not have to go looking for it. If nothing emerges then it's jam tomorrow again for those who want it.

I guess Dr Beaker, it’s because we enjoy it, enjoy the mystery, expanding our minds in the process or challenging what we thought we understood. Even considering ideas and theories can be an enjoyable pastime. I personally think religion, ET/UAP, life after death, DMT experiences, eastern beliefs, what if it’s all clues or bits of the puzzle to the biggest question of all. Why are we even here, why is there even such a thing as the universe.

But that’s proper off topic. And you’re right, hopefully something will bang the world right in the mush.

["Bobber" Thanks :)]

I have seen very little of Mick West's output. But I did watch the video Alan linked where West describes what seems a very plausible explanation of the Tic Tac object. West provides a very detailed explanation of his analysis, but as far as I can determine, Nolan has consistently failed to provide any hard evidence, or any kind of analysis which conforms to anything approaching the scientific method with regard to UFOs, exotic materials, etc.I was about to write that I did not reference you (and did not in my comments today - though I did reply to your post) - I did reference Richard Butt, from the tweet you linked. And I posted this, yesterday:

https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=353922.msg18867690#msg18867690

I responded with a comment about the funny headline at the webpage you linked. I don't know why you have taken my comments personally. I have little patience for ridiculous argument. If I choose to ridicule ridiculous argument, it should surely come as little surprise.

Ok at this point then, you believe Mick West over Nobel nominated Stanford Professor Garry Nolan. Fair enough. You have little patience for ridiculous arguments, but pay attention to the man who said the tic tac could have been seagulls and the Ariel kids saw a VW mini bus of hippies and then changed his theory and suggested it was puppets.

Let’s leave it as that and see what happens, if anything new and more compelling comes out

[Jiminy Cricket]

Ok at this point then, you believe Mick West over Nobel nominated Stanford Professor Garry Nolan. Fair enough. You have little patience for ridiculous arguments, but pay attention to the man who said the tic tac could have been seagulls and the Ariel kids saw a VW mini bus of hippies and then changed his theory and suggested it was puppets.

Let’s leave it as that and see what happens, if anything new and more compelling comes out

As I wrote before, I have seen very little of West's output. I think, just that Tic Tac video Alan linked. I found West's analysis convincing. I have not double-checked his methodology, but it would seem rather unlikely that he just made it all up. On the other hand, I have seen nothing from Nolan - the biologist* - except vague promises to release proof at some point.

* It seems prevalent these days to promote experts in one one field as experts in another unrelated area. We saw it all the time with COVID, 9/11 etc., and we see it here again with UFOs.

[Alan_X]

This is all as pointless as arguing about religion. Why don't you all take a break for a year. If real evidence emerges it will smack the whole world right in the mush, you will not have to go looking for it. If nothing emerges then it's jam tomorrow again for those who want it.

It's a long term interest for me Doc. I'm fascinated by conspiritorial thinking, perception and also enjoy the process of investigation. That bit of work I did on the Mosul orb was fascinating. I learned a load of stuff I didn't know before and there was real satisfaction in being able to model the whole thing and show to my own satisfaction my hypothesis held up.

It's really difficult to explain to people that they are looking at an image taken from 5km away at 5km altitude. If someone can't grasp that and the incredibly narrow field of view they aren't going to understand how a floating balloon can seem to speed over the ground.

If you don't understand or accept that motion blur will turn an object like a bird, a plane or a bug into an elongated shape that will be either saucer or 'tic-tac' shape then the debunking seems ridiculous and easy to dismiss. Its actually straightforward to demonstrate but it requires a willingness to let go of the idea that Tic Tacs are proof of alien craft with impossible properties.