Author Topic: Toro toro El Moro - on me 'ed, Señor  (Read 11413 times)

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Toro toro El Moro - on me 'ed, Señor
« on: January 13, 2005, 03:27:51 pm »
Six months into his reign, and Rafael Benitez has already succeeded in one area where Houllier failed: procuring some of the very best talent from his homeland. (Assuming there are no last-minute hitches with Fernando Morientes' medical).

I read today that Houllier signed 17 players from the French league; alas, none has proved an outright success. (Although some, like Le Tallec and Cisse, may still do so, and Traore and Sinama-Pongolle have been largely excellent this season, and the latter, at just 20, will be some player in years to come). Although Cisse hasn't had the chance to prove himself, the general rule was that the more Houllier paid for his French-based signings, the less effective they would be.

Top Spaniards seem to want to play for Rafa in the way the best Frenchmen saw Wenger as the main man. Houllier was seen as a fine (but flawed) coach in his homeland; Wenger had that air of being the best. Same with Rafa: the Spanish revere him. And rightly so, given his achievements in recent years. Players want to play for Liverpool, and they also want to play for Benitez.

There is already an uncanny resemblance between Rafa's transfer activity and two of Wenger's best signings; the parallels are striking. In 1999 Wenger bought his country's best forward - Thierry Henry - then aged 22, for £10.5m. Last autumn Rafa paid the exact same amount for a player the exact same age - who happened to be his country's best central midfielder. Different position, same quality and potential.

Next Wenger bought Robert Pires for £6m - an experienced player, with 40-odd French caps. Like Henry, he became Footballer of the Year. Benitez has paid the exact same price, for a player of a similar age at the time of signing, and with a similar amount of caps for his country. These are Rafa's 'Big Two'. If Alonso and Morientes are anywhere near as successful as Henry and Pires, we'll be laughing; and Alonso's form before injury, and Morientes' style and pedigree, suggest they will be.

The best thing about Morientes is this: he is a big game player; he will not fail because he's at a big club and couldn't handle the pressure, nor will he freeze in the spotlights (more commonly known as floodlights for night games) of the big occasion. Some - but not many - of Houllier's signings knew what it was like to play under such pressure and intense scrutiny; Rafa has now signed four (out of six) players from Spain's big three: Real Madrid, Barcelona and Valencia. Rafa is signing winners (Pellegrino and Morientes have some medal collection between them), and he is signing players used to the big occasion; not raw and young potential 'chokers'.

Morientes has been there, done it all. However, unlike some players looking for a big pay day and to laze on the beach, he's merely hungry for more medals. His comments about joining Liverpool were manna from the heavens. Success has played a big part in his career; he can certainly be a significant step towards making us great again - even if he is not that irritatingly-overused 'final piece of the puzzle'. He's just the latest key element.

Since his international debut in 1998, Morientes has played in three major tournaments for Spain and has scored five World Cup goals (2 in 1998 and 3 in 2002) and one in Euro 2004. He's won two La Liga titles, several domestic cups, and has played in no less than four Champions League finals, and been on the winning side three times. Last season he scored home and away against both Real Madrid and Chelsea while with Monaco, and finished top scorer in the competition. Not bad, huh? He also helped Raul grab most of the headlines in Spain; since Morientes fell out of the first-team picture at Madrid, Raul has waned dramatically.

In his first six months Benitez has also had to make some low budget signings - perhaps stopgaps, or minor gambles. Josemi and Antonio Nunez may or may not prove long-term successes; if not, then in truth not a lot will have been lost. It's not often possible to get outstanding players on a low budget, unless they are out of contract. Sometimes you need men who can merely do a job.

Luis Garcia is somewhere in between, in the middle of the scale - a mix of the sublime and the ridiculous; but on the whole a success. He's a talented addition to the squad, but of course will never be the best player in the world (some people - in Dreamland - think we should only sign players who can be the best in the world); however, only injury stopped him playing for Spain when called up in the past. He has some pedigree. You just have to accept that flair players - unless the very best in the world - will always be up and down, in and out of games, as they will look to try special things in games but it won't always come off. People say Luis Garcia should play it simple more often, and that's true on occasion; but we didn't want a player who merely gives it simple every time: Oyvind Leonhardsen did that for two years in the 90s, and didn't make one telling pass in all that time.

The much-maligned Nunez interests me. He's different from anyone else in the squad.

Nunez got slated by some fans against Watford; others (and many in the media) listed either him or Milan Baros as our Man of the Match. Nunez is an interesting one as he stays wide without licence to roam. He hugs the touchline - if others pass to him, he'll receive the ball in space. If they don't pass to him, he'll be stretching the opposition defence but, obviously, watching the game pass him by. (But if he drifted inside to get involved, he'd clutter it up in the middle and leave less space for others to operate in). After Baros arrived in the 50th minute, everything went through the middle, and Nunez was a spectator; but he was still helping Baros find that space. That's crucial. 

One thing Nunez did against Watford - up until he was frozen out of the game - was put crosses in. Seven, to be precise. One sailed ingloriously into the Kop. The other six were superb: whipped-in and not - as many do - hung up too high (so the keeper could take them); and they were mostly sent into that 'corridor of uncertainty' where keepers and defenders become caught in two minds. Alas Pongolle wasn't the ideal man to be on the end of most of them; others were cleared in desperation by defenders. Morientes - a truly sublime header of the ball - would have had a field day.

Nunez can be as poor or anonymous as possible if all he does is put in four or five telling crosses in a match; for Morientes that's two goals guaranteed. I can think of taller strikers in world football, but not a single better exponent of heading the ball. This is a man who scored four headers in one league game, and who, in some seasons, managed to get half his goals with his head. The power and accuracy he generates is frightening, and with Gerrard and Alonso's delivery from set pieces, we'll be a big threat. (Something the towering Pellegrino will add to, when he plays; also, Nunez is very good at attacking the ball).

One thing Houllier did well (but perhaps too frequently?) was get in young players from the French Academy system. The thing is, Rafa's first aim was to get some experience into the squad; we had too many kids and not enough established players of a sufficient quality. Alonso is young, but very experienced, and a no-brainer when it came to handing over the money. Otherwise the players Benitez has signed have been at a nice age, between 24-28, with the exception of Pellegrino, who has been bought for his amazing experience, as a winner of league titles with three different clubs.

I'm looking forward to see - at some stage in the future - which Spanish wonderkids come to Liverpool to play for Benitez; Arsenal (with Reyes and Fabrigas) and Man U (with the 17-year-old Pique) have already plundered young Spanish talent.

I just want to repeat what I said last time about Baros and Morientes as a pairing, now it looks almost certain to become a reality: Morientes is that rarity - a goal-scoring target man - so Baros (small, nippy, natural finisher, in the Owen mould) would have a perfect foil. Baros and Morientes would (in theory - and that's all it is at present) offer more than Owen and Heskey. Morientes looks perfect for someone like Baros to play off. Baros is never static, always running into the channels, either with the ball or without. He doesn't drop deep, but works the width of the pitch. Morientes would be the opposite: working only the centre of the pitch; dropping deep to link the play, or advanced as a target man, to hold the ball up or head down for others.

While Morientes still has to prove himself in English football, there can be no denying that he has the talent, temperament and style to succeed here. Man Utd won't be happy if they see him on our teamsheet, or ready to emerge from the bench.

Before I go, a short update on my book on LFC: thanks to all those who have expressed an interest so far. I will be setting up a website next week, with 'work-in-progress' sample chapters introduced over the coming months and updates on developments, ahead of publication late summer 2005. A few people have asked about how to pay me - just to clarify that it will be sold by the usual book retailers, and as such I won't be selling any copies myself. As before, anyone who wants to register a purely provisional interest in the book please email me at:  tomkins_lfcbook@btinternet.com  and I'll let you know when a publication date is set.

As things stand, I expect to be writing a chapter about Fernando Morientes - let's hope it's a long and incident-packed one...

Finally, Morientes' record up to now:

Club football

296 league appearances –– 115 league goals (including a lot of substitute appearances in recent seasons)         

76 European Appearances –– 29 European goals

International record for Spain                      

38 appearances –– 25 goals    
  



© Paul Tomkins 2005



Offline didi

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Re: Toro toro El Moro - on me 'ed, Señor
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2005, 03:34:03 pm »
lets just wait and see eh?

Offline Red Eye

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Re: Toro toro El Moro - on me 'ed, Señor
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2005, 03:38:08 pm »
Another GREAT peice.

Keep up the GREAT work.

Offline realtarragona

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Re: Toro toro El Moro - on me 'ed, Señor
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2005, 03:44:37 pm »
Don't think it was great at all personally.

Cissé was the number one striker in France. Houllier bought him. So you've already contradicted yourself there. That's not to mention the two most highly-rated youngsters to have emerged from that country recently, in Le Tallec and Pongolle.

Also, Morientes, while being a big name is not a guarantee to be a success in this country. I have my doubts, as do a few others who have watched him regularly over the years. Ballague being one of them.

As for Benitez's signings, Alonso has been excellent but the rest are very much up for debate. I would not call Garcia a success. He's gone from being inconsistent to just being below-par now. I read somewhere that he gave the ball away 20 times in the second half of our last match. 20 times!

Still, it's early days yet, so just like it's unfair to criticise Benitez or his signings, it's hardly a good time to start saying how good they are either.

Offline nidgemo

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Re: Toro toro El Moro - on me 'ed, Señor
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2005, 03:46:05 pm »
nice one PT.

Great read, and some good points re nunez using width to draw defenders wide.
I'm no longer on RAWK, but if you need to contact me about anything, you can email me on nigelmorrison@connectfree.co.uk

Offline afc tukrish

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Re: Toro toro El Moro - on me 'ed, Señor
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2005, 03:46:12 pm »
there are no certainties in football, and many factors to overcome when a player moves to a different country and culture, but so much seems to be positive about Morientes's arrival at Anfield: a manager and several players with whom he shares a language, his own success in Monaco and the Champions League, the player's style of play, a centre-forward who brings his teammates into the play while managing to get on the end of things, and a club with supporters for the most part very eager to welcome him aboard.

Morientes was never the man at Real, that was always Raul.  At Monaco, he was the focus of their attacks, and reveled in it.  At Liverpool, he will see similar service, while being urged on by hordes of fanatic supporters, which was missing for him at Monaco, with pitifully small crowds common in the prinicipality.

Liverpool might be everything Morientes wants as a player: a manager he respects, a team that will use his talents as a centre-forward, and plenty of support from the stands.

have to say, the signing of morientes is an exciting one, and yet another uphill run in the roller-coaster Liverpool season of 2004-05.

and nice break from RAWK, Paul. ;D  when you're ill, you rip off @2000 words on Morientes.  when you recover, the book gets written in a week, then?
Since haste quite Schorsch, but Liverpool are genuine fight pigs...

Offline GarBo

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Re: Toro toro El Moro - on me 'ed, Señor
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2005, 03:55:26 pm »
Very good read again Paul
I have to admit the thought of Morientes playing for us fills me with great confidence.
I can't think of the last time we signed a truely WORLD CLASS player (apart from Alonso). We've bought a player with international pedigree and experience.
Im so excited! Roll on Saturday!!  :)

Offline Robbo1980

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Re: Toro toro El Moro - on me 'ed, Señor
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2005, 04:05:51 pm »
Quote
Cissé was the number one striker in France. Houllier bought him. So you've already contradicted yourself there. That's not to mention the two most highly-rated youngsters to have emerged from that country recently, in Le Tallec and Pongolle.

Le Tallec & Pongolle have potential but to call them the two most highly rated youngsters to have come from that country recently is an exagerration to say the least.
Too many of houlliers signings were "For the future", giving his "IN A FEW YEARS we'l be great" excuses credence.
Benitez, as PT said, is signing players who can do a job now, therfore strengthining the immediate squad, Garcia maybe no world beater (although he is pretty good to say the least) but he has done far more in a short space of time than Cheyrou did in 2 years.
Nunez, even though im not his biggest fan has done far more than Diara or Diomede (another 1 for the future) ever did  for LFC.
Benitez squad in 6/7 months is already more balanced and looks more primed for instant success than Houlliers did in 6 years. Houlliers squads always had a "in a few years" look to it.

Watch out Man Utd.....WATCH OUT!!!!!!
« Last Edit: January 13, 2005, 04:09:19 pm by Robbo1980 »

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: Toro toro El Moro - on me 'ed, Señor
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2005, 04:37:05 pm »
Don't think it was great at all personally.


Fair enough. Each to their own  :)


Cissé was the number one striker in France. Houllier bought him. So you've already contradicted yourself there. That's not to mention the two most highly-rated youngsters to have emerged from that country recently, in Le Tallec and Pongolle.


Tell me - you did actually read the article, didn't you?

I said a) Cisse hasn't had the chance to prove himself (although unlike Alonso, he didn't make an instant impression). I'm a big fan of Cisse, and I feel he'll prove a great signing; if you don't believe that, read everything I've written on him. I exempted him somewhat; you cannot exempt Diouf (£10m), Diao (£5.5m) and Cheyrou (£4m).

Also, you mention Le Tallec and FSP - funnily enough, I held the former up as still to early to tell (but a great young talent), and the latter as doing brilliantly. My point was that the more Houllier spent in France, the less successful he was - generally speaking. However, ALT and FSP were very cheap and great value for money, whatever happens.

I also said Houllier was very good at bringing in bright young talent from France (in which I was inferring the inclusion of Cisse, at just 22 when he signed), so you must have missed that point too; I merely said that he possibly did it too much, as he didn't buy enough 'established' players from France, merely promising players, some of whom disappeared. Houllier didn't buy one player from France with Morientes' experience and track record; he did go for Diomede and Ferri, who had international caps, but both were long-since ex-internationals who'd not done particularly well for several years before signing.

If you going to criticize me, fine, but at least read the article properly first. It helps everyone  :wave

Offline mercury

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Re: Toro toro El Moro - on me 'ed, Señor
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2005, 04:43:45 pm »
it's an optimistic piece but as a forever glass-half-full rather than half-empty optimist, i'd always love your articles  ;D :wave

there is an inherent risk in every new signing, overseas players more so, but on track record and playing style Morientes is as good a signing as it can be for us!  so i'm very very happy and really look forward to saturday.  however, not a La Liga watcher myself (have seen him play in less than a handful of internationals), i am really curious why realtarragona and other regular watchers of la liga, like Ballague, are not so sure about him playing for us (which seems to be more than the normal whether he can make it in the Premiership doubts).  Care to shed some lights?   :wave

Offline gibber_blot

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Re: Toro toro El Moro - on me 'ed, Señor
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2005, 04:46:22 pm »
Club football

296 league appearances –– 115 league goals (including a lot of substitute appearances in recent seasons)         

76 European Appearances –– 29 European goals

That's a good haul, but this:

International record for Spain                     

38 appearances –– 25 goals   

is outstanding!

Offline khalilur

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Re: Toro toro El Moro - on me 'ed, Señor
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2005, 04:48:08 pm »
I'm looking forward to see - at some stage in the future - which Spanish wonderkids come to Liverpool to play for Benitez; Arsenal (with Reyes and Fabrigas) and Man U (with the 17-year-old Pique) have already plundered young Spanish talent.

While Benitez has been doing well in getting some established players from the La Liga, I am still unsure about his ability to get young and up coming talents a la Arsenal.

In my opinion, it has more to do with the scouting network rather than the manager himself.

How did he do at Valencia? Any gems he personally uncover there? Or did he just polish whatever rough gems there into the final product, just like what he seems to be doing with Traore here?

Offline realtarragona

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Re: Toro toro El Moro - on me 'ed, Señor
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2005, 04:49:32 pm »
Quote
I said a) Cisse hasn't had the chance to prove himself (although unlike Alonso, he didn't make an instant impression). I'm a big fan of Cisse, and I feel he'll prove a great signing; if you don't believe that, read everything I've written on him.

I'm not saying you criticised Cissé. I'm just pointing out that Houllier did also bring someone who was the 'cream of the crop' from his own country over here too. Benitez has maybe taken it a step further with both Alonso AND Morientes but I was just pointing out that some of Houllier's signings were meant to be the best from his own league too.

Anyway, maybe I did skim-read it a little too much, so sorry if I got anything wrong. It's a decent article it's just I'm not as convinced that Morientes will be as huge a hit as others so I don't think it's worthwhile comparing the signings of the two managers just yet. Cases could be made for Cheyrou being one of the best players in France when we signed him (which he was) and so on. I'd prefer to wait and see myself but that's just the way I look at things.

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: Toro toro El Moro - on me 'ed, Señor
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2005, 04:57:12 pm »
It is optimistic - I listed the reasons why I think he'll succeed. That's my opinion. There are always risks, but his experience, winning mentality and ability in the air mean I think he'll be a success here.

He doesn't even have to worry about getting into the pace of the game - he just needs to get on the end of a few crosses for starters. The games can all pass him by but one good cross in each and his anticipation and timing will make it count.

I don't mind anyone criticizing what I've said if valid, but when it's done sloppily or inaccurately it is, of course, a little irritating.

If people don't think Luis Garcia is a success - fine. Again, I put him down as a success, but it wasn't a resounding success. But in half a league season, to have scored seven very good goals (two wrongly disallowed) is not a failure in my book. He needs to improve, but I think I made that clear. I never said he was amazing or outstanding - just that he's been a success. If that's a mixed success, so be it.

- Just previewed this and seen a reply:

Cases could be made for Cheyrou being one of the best players in France when we signed him (which he was) and so on. I'd prefer to wait and see myself but that's just the way I look at things.


Thanks for the partial retraction. Cisse was the cream of the crop from France; I was saying, as you realized, that Benitez has already overtaken him; one great signing from France is less than two from Spain, in less than half the transfers. (Although some were just kids with good potential).

As for the above point, Cheyrou wasn't an international when he signed (he became one after, briefly). He had had one really good season in France.

I am talking about Morientes: 25 international goals, nearly 200 careers goal, 4 Champions League finals, 7 seasons of experience at the most high-pressure club in the world, two World Cups, one European Championship; goals in Spain and France. If you are comparing Cheyrou's pedigree to Morientes', you are having the biggest laugh of your life!  :wave
« Last Edit: January 13, 2005, 04:58:51 pm by Paul Tomkins »

Offline Consigliere

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Re: Toro toro El Moro - on me 'ed, Señor
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2005, 05:05:47 pm »
Good article, not least because it identifies things that many fans don't see or appreciate when they slate Nunez.

Offline realtarragona

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Re: Toro toro El Moro - on me 'ed, Señor
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2005, 05:06:20 pm »
I'm not comparing the two. I'm talking about the point about the two managers bringing the best from their own country. At the time, Cheyrou was rated as one of them, despite what's happened since then. The way I see it, Houllier brought over a few highly rated players from his own country, as Benitez has done (although as you said, no-one as experienced or proven as Morientes) but also signed a number of 'flops'. But then Rafa will probably do the same too and may have already done so.

Offline TSC

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Re: Toro toro El Moro - on me 'ed, Señor
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2005, 05:10:12 pm »
I'm not comparing the two. I'm talking about the point about the two managers bringing the best from their own country. At the time, Cheyrou was rated as one of them, despite what's happened since then. The way I see it, Houllier brought over a few highly rated players from his own country, as Benitez has done (although as you said, no-one as experienced or proven as Morientes) but also signed a number of 'flops'. But then Rafa will probably do the same too and may have already done so.

You may have a point.

However, one thing you can't deny, the football under Rafa is a hell of a lot easier on the eye than under Houllier.

Offline Tarpaulin

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Re: Toro toro El Moro - on me 'ed, Señor
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2005, 05:29:44 pm »
One of the most crucial elements for me Paul [Oh and yet another cracking piece by the way lad  ;)] was that in Morientes last full season for Madrid in 02/03 he scored 21 Goals. But in that same season he had 19 assists.

I havent looked at previous seasons, but Id guess that he has a handy rate of assists to his name. His all-round game is sublime, and the possible link play you mention with Baros has simply got my mouth watering. Not since we signed Collymore to go with Fowler [and even then it wasnt as hotly as anticipated by me as this pairing]  have I thought two players were more suited as a combination. Even if Cisse was fit, id be just as excited with the prospect of him with Morientes, as him and Baros are similar in the sense that they pull out wide and do a fair bit of work down the channels.  I would have welcomed Anelka back to Anfield had we not signed Fernando....but in the back of my mind I would have been thinking of what 'could have been'.

Fuckin ell, i cant wait for Satdee now.

Oh, and P.S - dont bother with the book. You can't write for shite!  :wave

Offline Steven Gerrard

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Re: Toro toro El Moro - on me 'ed, Señor
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2005, 05:45:45 pm »
Good article i enjoyed reading it  :wave
They've done studies, you know. 60% of the time, it works every time

Offline Red Jack

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Re: Toro toro El Moro - on me 'ed, Señor
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2005, 05:50:53 pm »
Quality, Interesting article mate.... Nice work..

And even longer than my first post I think  ;)

Offline Benno2

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Re: Toro toro El Moro - on me 'ed, Señor
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2005, 06:39:26 pm »
The difference between Rafa and Gerard?

Rafa buys footballers, people with vision and technique and makes them work on their fitness. Gerard largely bought athletes who could play a bit and taught them how to defend.

There are exceptions, Gary Mac, Barmby and Litmanen spring to mind, but then Gerard did turn over players at a phenomenal rate.

A crass comparison? Possibly. But a truism methinks.

Offline kneejerk

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Re: Toro toro El Moro - on me 'ed, Señor
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2005, 06:41:32 pm »
happy days
would like javier bardem to do the coin tosses at anfield

Offline hooded claw

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Re: Toro toro El Moro - on me 'ed, Señor
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2005, 06:56:34 pm »
I'm not comparing the two. I'm talking about the point about the two managers bringing the best from their own country. At the time, Cheyrou was rated as one of them, despite what's happened since then. The way I see it, Houllier brought over a few highly rated players from his own country, as Benitez has done (although as you said, no-one as experienced or proven as Morientes) but also signed a number of 'flops'. But then Rafa will probably do the same too and may have already done so.

As has been said before- many times, no doubt, to the point of cliche- there's no such thing as a sure thing when signing a player. For every Henry there's a Bellion, for every Pires or Cantona a Djemba-Djemba, for every Hyypia a Stepanovs. Even the greatest managers balls it up sometimes, as Mourinho will find out.
But the difference with Rafa's signings is the fact that, as a current manager, he is used to seeing these players on a  regular basis, either in training or in opposition. I always felt with Houllier that his was an 'academic' knowledge of a target's strengths, rather than up close and personal familiarity.

Offline Byrnee

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Re: Toro toro El Moro - on me 'ed, Señor
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2005, 07:09:48 pm »
My e-mails fucked Paul, but rest assured I'll be buying your book mate! :wave

Top article. For years, I wasn't too keen on Morientes myself, don't really know why, just never saw him as a Star striker, and I think that was because I was a naive youngster! But it was true to an extent - Moro was never going to be a Galactico. Strangely, he's one who deserves it far, far more than the likes of Beckham. He's a true professional and in recent years I realised just how good he was. At Monaco last season he looked superb, remember Chelsea were apparently after him. I'm made up they didn't go for him, because I truly think he's someone who will have a massive impact in the Premiership.

It just works, Morientes has a point to prove, he's been employed by a manager who I believe knows exactly what type of player we are looking for and exactly what type of player 'El Moro' is. This could be a match made in heaven. I don't want to pile on the pressure, I never do! But excited? You betcha arse I am.

As I commented in another thread, just imagine - Madrid, with the benefit of hindsight (or just a dollop of common sense!) Could have hired Benitez this summer, could have bought Alonso, and could have utilised Morientes effectively (a target man for Beckham's deadly right foot)...

We have all three and its a bloody exciting time, after the pessimism surrounding the club at the turn of last year.

'Liverpool was made for me and I was made for Liverpool.'
Bill Shankly


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Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: Toro toro El Moro - on me 'ed, Señor
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2005, 07:10:13 pm »
And even longer than my first post I think  ;)


But shorter than my normal pieces!   ;D


One of the most crucial elements for me Paul [Oh and yet another cracking piece by the way lad  ;)] was that in Morientes last full season for Madrid in 02/03 he scored 21 Goals. But in that same season he had 19 assists.


I can't believe I fucking forgot that, as it was going to be one of the main points of the article! Serves me right for rushing it  :butt


As for the other posts on Houllier, it really wasn't meant to be an overall comparison (or slating the guy), just on that one point. I've defended Houllier on what he did right, and I've criticized him for things he did wrong. It's all in other articles, but I can't keep dragging all that up every time.

I do feel if I respond to people's comments - which I like to do - I end up feeling like I have to justify things I shouldn't need to; i.e. stuff I've said in the past shouldn't need repeating to 'prove' my stance, but when people look to catch you out you start to wish you'd included all the provisos and thorough explanations, and my posts would be 10,000 words long, not 2,000.

I'd highlighted some slight nagging doubts about Morientes in my previous article; do I have to repeat everything, every time, to cover my back? I'd end up tying myself in knots. But I leave something out as I've said it before, and suddenly it's picked up upon. The words 'win' 'no' and 'situation' could be rearranged.

I am happy to discuss people disagreeing with me, and I happily admit when I'm wrong; go through all of my 5000-odd RAWK posts and I promise you will find plenty of examples.

But it does fuck me off when I've written 2,000 words to go on a site which I also help run, from which none of us make a single penny (and lose a lot of money in time, etc), and someone comes along and infers that what I've written is rubbish; and then admits they never read it properly in the first place. If someone buys my book when it comes out and they think it's crap, then fine, they've paid their money, that's their right. But to me this kind of criticism feels like someone emailing Bono to say the new U2 album is crap when they downloaded it for free from the web.

Try showing a bit more respect. I'd be horrified if the same was posted as a response on any other RAWK writer's article.

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: Toro toro El Moro - on me 'ed, Señor
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2005, 07:12:13 pm »
My e-mails fucked Paul, but rest assured I'll be buying your book mate! :wave


Cheers, mate.  :wave

Having a bad day and sometimes RAWK only makes it worse...  :-\

Offline Andy-oh-six

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Re: Toro toro El Moro - on me 'ed, Señor
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2005, 07:33:43 pm »
Good article Paul - cheer up lad  :)

I think you sum up how Rafa seems to be planning for the 'now' and accepting the challenge of immediacy whereas GH often went for the future where delivery of results for the present would not be the be all and end all - which ultimately led to unfulfilment of the potentialities in the club during his time.

Mori has the track record of scoring goals and experience of winning (as with Pelle) which I think is the what we have missed for many years in our signings. Signing potential is good but with experience signings there is a record of achievement which may not determine the future but provide an account of what a player has achieved and can achieve in the future.
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Offline Byrnee

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Re: Toro toro El Moro - on me 'ed, Señor
« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2005, 07:36:08 pm »
Don't worry about it Paul, I haven't read anything truly insightful from some of the posters on here who are so quick to criticise and until I do, I'll take their opinions with a pinch of salt.

Also for those who worry Paul's piece was too optimistic:

Morientes is a baaaad signing. He is baaad. He might work out ok, but he will probably be baaad. We are a baad team with a baaad manager and baad players. I don't like watching us because it's baaad to watch and things never go right.

Fuck's sake people! Do you really want to come on a Liverpool website and see all the fans moaning about how things might not work out? I know I don't.

I'm an optimist, and I'm not alone.

We support this team through thick and thin, always believing the best just might happen. That we might, just might get a winner against Arsenal with the last kick of the game. That we might, just might recover from a goal down to score three in the second half to progress in the European Cup. That our players might, just might turn out to be world-beaters. That we might win number's 19 and 5.

And if they do, and we do, then it will be great for us. Until then, we can dream and hope.

When things go wrong, we hope that they'll turn around. When things go right we hope it'll continue. When we lose, coming on RAWK might cheer you up - funny stories, articles about some of our legends, optimistic pieces about what we can take from the defeat. Paul is one of the best at spotting these sorts of things, as well as problems we have rectified. I for one enjoy these articles, they give you a valauble insight that you won't find in most newspapers, they give you that bit of hope, that bit of faith that'll it'll all be alright in the end!

Why would you visit a website that depresses the fuck out of you and makes you think we'll never win? We'll never succeed?

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the banter and the debates and the differences of opinion, they're what keep the site alive. But balanced opinion pieces like this are to be cherished.

Sorry if you think this is OTT, but it annoys me when people log on to criticise without constructive criticism - pointless snide comments about work people have spent time on and posted for your enjoyment.

If you want to read posts containing two lines of meaningless shite, go to .tv, you'll enjoy the endless parade of repeated posts and sensationalist crap.

Us RAWKites are a tad more cultured!

PS (Now Feel free to criticise this constructively!  :wave
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Bill Shankly


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Offline ElMoroRojo

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Re: Toro toro El Moro - on me 'ed, Señor
« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2005, 07:39:41 pm »
I liked Morientes  when he played for Monaco, for two reasons: because he scored, and because every goal was the angry answer of the striker to Real for ignoring him.

When I heard that Liverpool was after him, I wasn´t very convinced if he was the kind of player that fits into our team.
Meanwhile I´ve changed my mind, we desperately need someone up front, turning ( a whole bunch of) chances into goals, and I hope that Morientes will be the "missing link".
With Baros as the only striker at the moment who can produce goals/create danger in the box, we need someone with the experience and that kind of killerinstinct (which Baros sometimes loses while trying to carry the ball into the net ::) ).

I´m looking forward to the partnership (maybe Morientes up front with Baros behind him, as Baros played with the Czech team in the Euro..?) and how it will affect the other team mates including Mellor and Pongolle,who by no means are promising players who can score, but still lack of experience.

Concerning Nunez i agree with PT; imo he has potential, his crosses can produce dangerous situations, he´s running and fighting. At the moment he´s far more convincing than Josemi in the past months. Time will tell if he improves.
Imo Benítez is a manager who can turn the best out of a player. For me Harry Kewell gives a good example, as well as Riise.

In this sense, buenos díaz, Senor Morientes, encantado.
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Offline Victor

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Re: Toro toro El Moro - on me 'ed, Señor
« Reply #29 on: January 13, 2005, 07:54:26 pm »
I've read a number of your posts here Paul and I've generally found that, when you criticise players, you're constructive about it ... not "he's shite" ... if that gets mistaken by some people for being overoptimistic I wouldn't let that bother you

anyway ... these are optimistic times ... we're well placed for a good run from now to the end of the season with a world class signing  ready for his debut .... I can't think of one player who's available who I'd rather we signed ..... Anelka ?  Puleese  ;D
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Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: Toro toro El Moro - on me 'ed, Señor
« Reply #30 on: January 13, 2005, 08:36:25 pm »
Good article Paul - cheer up lad  :)

I think you sum up how Rafa seems to be planning for the 'now' and accepting the challenge of immediacy whereas GH often went for the future where delivery of results for the present would not be the be all and end all - which ultimately led to unfulfilment of the potentialities in the club during his time.


Cheers, peeps.

I loved it when GH started buying good young players for the future, but by the end he was still planning for the future. The average age of the team was 24 in 2000, and still 24 in 2004. He just kept replacing players hitting their peaks with kids.

As for optimist, I think I am - but once I'd realized we weren't going anywhere under Houllier (i.e. 18 months ago) I became very pessimistic. And it proved mostly right, as we were only getting worse, not better.

I just try to be fair and not too critical, but I understand the frustrations of not rating a player. I like to support players from the start, and only if they continually let me down over a long period of time do I find my support wane.

Offline Gnurglan

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Re: Toro toro El Moro - on me 'ed, Señor
« Reply #31 on: January 13, 2005, 09:38:42 pm »
I'm very excited by the signing of Morientes. Have been hoping for a new type of striker for a very long time and Morientes has been one of the main, almost unrealistic candidates. Now he's here and we couldn't have made a better signing. The thing is, like Paul described so well, that FM mixes so well with Baros. At least he does in theory and as mentioned above by PT, that's all we have to go by so far. But not for much longer...

GH did sign quality players. I'm thinking of mainly Babbel and Litmanen (none of them French, but still...) Cisse was indeed a quality player in France, but he was also the typical Houllier signing. Young, hyped (thanks to GH) and the same kind of man we already had. It doesn't make him a poor player, absolutely not, but he doesn't complete the team the same way I believe Morientes will. That is not the fault of Cisse, but the fault of our former manager. It's not a coincidence Benitez said this

Quote
"We need a target man with experience - for the supporters, for the team and for the players," says Benitez.
 
"He is not the quickest, but he can play with Baros and they could form a good partnership because one is good in the air and the other is quick."

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/drilldown/N147465050113-1536.htm

The poor balance in the squad has been touched before by Rafa (the leg to balance the table). It's about fitting the pieces together, about bringing out the best in the players we have, combining strenghts and having alternatives. It's not just about getting good players. GH did that. I agree with PT about Nunez. We don't have anyone like him, a player who keeps the width on the right. This is why I think he's 1st pick at RM. He does the job we want and need him to do. On the left, Kewell can do the job required, but I don't think Garcia can (the same goes for JAR). 

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Offline MNAA

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Re: Toro toro El Moro - on me 'ed, Señor
« Reply #32 on: January 13, 2005, 10:02:01 pm »
Hi Paul,

Good read ... as always!

Just a few comments (not in direct reference to your article).

Morientes is not a guaranteed success but given his background, his experience, his achievement and his talent, very likely he will be a success. Have always have a soft spot for him during the heyday of his partnership with Raul. But to me, his 'loan' year with Monaco tell us more about him. He can make things happen and he does not need world class players around him to make him play better. He was the reason Monaco knocked out both Real and Chelsea from the CL last season. And I am glad that he's now with us.

Agreed to your comments on Houllier. But something to share (and just in case people forget since we tend to have short memory), everytime I see Baros in full flight, I silently thank Gerard for bringing Milan to our stable (though Baros could have left last summer if Houllier had remained in the hotseat).

Cheers!

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Offline Valim

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Re: Toro toro El Moro - on me 'ed, Señor
« Reply #33 on: January 13, 2005, 11:03:25 pm »
I think this was a good article by Paul Tomkins (he has written better ones though!). But I have to agree with most of what he said. I only disagree with the whole "Wenger bought the cream, Houllier bought the rest". I actually think Houllier is merely a worse player coach/motivator than Wenger. Houllier bought some real quality. In fact, I'd go as far as saying that, in Wenger's hands, I am convinced Heskey and Cheyrou would have blossomed beautifully, as Henry did. I mean, the talent was there for both. Henry bombed in his previous clubs, and then came to Arsenal and became Henry. Houllier just couldn't bring out the talent in Heskey for instance, and now the ship has sailed (for ourselves and Emile).

The other sticking point with me is that the article (to some extent), and many many posts in RAWK imply that Moro is a real killer in the box, clinical finisher.

Moro fluffs a lot of chances. A lot more than Ronaldo for instance. In a way, one of his biggest qualities is that he is similar to Van Nistelrooy-- always well positioned for opportunities, but tends to miss quite a few. In fact, Moro often does not manage to get a finish off, not being the paciest player and all.

He is, however, as Tomkins put it so aptly, a rare, rare breed. He is the thinking man's Vieri, a target man with link-up play. And most importantly, and I believe the biggest point of the article and the signing, he is a proven, experienced, hard-working winner in his prime.

How many of those did Houllier sign?

BTW, I'd never have signed Diouf without some denser scrutiny, but I felt Diao was a sure bet after the World Cup. Gah.

Offline Alf

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Re: Toro toro El Moro - on me 'ed, Señor
« Reply #34 on: January 13, 2005, 11:15:49 pm »
Good article Paul, spot on as usual.

Offline aussiepool

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Re: Toro toro El Moro - on me 'ed, Señor
« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2005, 12:46:08 am »
A well thought out article. I am a relatively new member and before I joined I read a fair few of the regular posters and articles and found that the discussion points were very similar to the debates my mates and I have. I am very happy to have found a site with so many considered opinions, not just the usual " he's crap".

Anyway, Paul I thought the most interesting part of your post was the Rafa comparison with Wenger. I was struck by  similarities in signings. I hope we have the success that Wenger has achieved but I suspect and hope that we will achieve more. From the time I laid eyes on Benitez I was impressed with his quiet confidence. No outrageous statements of victories and cups, just a measured determination to improve the players and the team.

From the time I first saw Liverpool play on TV  in the seventies, they have always been a my team because of the fact they "make" things happen. Even this year when the injury toll was crippling us and things seemed to be sliding, up pops Mellor V Arsenal and then the CL come back climaxing in that goal. I am a manager in my firm and the looks I got from staff as I danced around my office after seeing the score change on the web telecast were worth the joy.

By the above I mean I am prepared if things don't go  our way from the start I believe we have the makings of a dynasty to rival our previous deeds. Strangely I believe Pellegrino will vital as well. Here is player who can impart professionalism to our entire squad. We need the entire squad to be able to perform to Rafa's ideals and play the type of football that wins, not just a single trophy, but multiple trophies in the same season. We need 20 players for that not 13.

Well thats my thoughts and I hope I didn't stray too far from the topic.

Offline Darren G

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Re: Toro toro El Moro - on me 'ed, Señor
« Reply #36 on: January 14, 2005, 12:52:38 am »
and Chelsea while with Monaco, and finished top scorer in the competition. Not bad, huh? He also helped Raul grab most of the headlines in Spain; since Morientes fell out of the first-team picture at Madrid, Raul has waned dramatically.



I just want to repeat what I said last time about Baros and Morientes as a pairing, now it looks almost certain to become a reality: Morientes is that rarity - a goal-scoring target man - so Baros (small, nippy, natural finisher, in the Owen mould) would have a perfect foil. Baros and Morientes would (in theory - and that's all it is at present) offer more than Owen and Heskey. Morientes looks perfect for someone like Baros to play off. Baros is never static, always running into the channels, either with the ball or without. He doesn't drop deep, but works the width of the pitch. Morientes would be the opposite: working only the centre of the pitch; dropping deep to link the play, or advanced as a target man, to hold the ball up or head down for others.




 This is certainly an exciting aspect of having Morientes at the club. I think that Morientes will not only provide an excellent foil for Baros, but also Cisse on his return to fitness.    Given Raul's decline since Madrid ruined the most productive partnership in 'La Liga', one of the questions worth asking is just how much better our other strikers are going to be with Moro on the field.  The prospect is certainly mouthwatering.  Rafa really is building a unit once more, just as he did at Valencia, with players who complement each other and make a whole greater than the sum of it's parts. The future is certainly  looking bright.

 Excellent article by the way.

 

Offline mercury

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Re: Toro toro El Moro - on me 'ed, Señor
« Reply #37 on: January 14, 2005, 03:03:10 am »
The other sticking point with me is that the article (to some extent), and many many posts in RAWK imply that Moro is a real killer in the box, clinical finisher.

Moro fluffs a lot of chances. A lot more than Ronaldo for instance. In a way, one of his biggest qualities is that he is similar to Van Nistelrooy-- always well positioned for opportunities, but tends to miss quite a few. In fact, Moro often does not manage to get a finish off, not being the paciest player and all.

So that is a reason of the reservation towards him. 

Quote
He is, however, as Tomkins put it so aptly, a rare, rare breed. He is the thinking man's Vieri, a target man with link-up play. And most importantly, and I believe the biggest point of the article and the signing, he is a proven, experienced, hard-working winner in his prime.

also as Paul and many have pointed out, his strengths and playing style are exactly what we need.  he will bring so much more to our game.

It's about fitting the pieces together, about bringing out the best in the players we have, combining strenghts and having alternatives. It's not just about getting good players.

Exactly.  A reason why people, including me, are so happy with Rafa (at least for now) is that he is rectifying many of the weaknesses left over by the previous regime.  Slowly the building blocks - players, tactics, mentla and physical strengths, etc - are being assembled.  Moro just epitomises it.

It is really a time for optimism! Happy times!

Offline SMD

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Re: Toro toro El Moro - on me 'ed, Señor
« Reply #38 on: January 14, 2005, 07:53:30 am »
I slightly disagree with your comparison of Morientes and Baros to Owen and Heskey.
Baros is a lot bigger than Owen and is more a quick Robbie Fowler (in his prime), so a mixture of the two. Morientes doesn't have the same physical presences as Heskey but is a lot more skilful.
This is probably why they're going to hit it off better than Owen and Heskey - they're skillful in their own right but can adjust to roles, even within a game. From Baros' play with Mellor, we've seen him playing the ball through the defence for Mellor to run on to. Morientes can play Baros' role, as his partnership with Prso showed, especially against Chelsea. He isn't that slow, which is also quite handy.
So yeah, the best potential part of the Baros-Morientes partnership is that they can switch roles during the game, which could wreak havoc against central defenders as they'd have to adjust.

I can see the likes of Rio Ferdinand getting very confused.  ;D

All in all, good write.
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Offline Kazak Red

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Re: Toro toro El Moro - on me 'ed, Señor
« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2005, 09:12:10 am »
Another good read.
I also too took time to choose a site to sign upto & one of the reasons I did sign to RAWK was the quality & crack in most of the posts.

Agreed with most of what you said & what I did not agree with was not worth bitching about.
Fully back what you said on Nunez.
I posted on the thread about Nunez & said pretty much the same as what you wrote also said in so many words that you never have a team of 11 world class players, the most successful sides have 4 / 5 & then you surround them with v good players who compliment them. For me we have Gerrard, Alonso & now Morientes ( I am hoping he proves to be world class), I feel we could still do with a world class keeper (Cudicini is looking to move) or world class centre half (maybe Pelle will prove able to fill that roll).

I become more optimistic by the day. I also believe that Rafa could still turn some of the potential that GH bought into quality players which would then add depth to our squad or at least up the sell on value if he wants to get rid.

Sorry if I drifted off the thread a bit but I have all this shit running around in my head. I have not been this upbeat since we signed Digger Barnes
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