Author Topic: British and Argentina relations strained  (Read 27664 times)

Offline SwedenRed

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British and Argentina relations strained
« on: February 18, 2010, 08:06:54 am »
This will be interesting to see how it develops
Argentina toughens shipping rules in Falklands oil row 
 
Geologists say the seabed around the Falklands has substantial oil reserves
Argentina has announced new controls on ships passing through its waters to the Falkland Islands in a growing dispute over British oil drilling plans.

A permit will now be needed by ships using Argentine waters en route to the Falklands, South Georgia or the South Sandwich Islands - all UK controlled.

Argentina has protested to the UK about oil exploration due to begin next week.

The UK Foreign Office said the Falkland Islands' waters were controlled by its authorities and would not be affected.

'Pathetic and useless'

Buenos Aires claims sovereignty over the Falkland Islands, which it calls Islas Malvinas.

It has previously threatened that any company exploring for oil and gas in the waters around the territory will not be allowed to operate in Argentina.

On Tuesday, Argentine President Cristina Fernandez signed a decree requiring all vessels travelling between Argentina and the islands, or those that want to cross Argentine territorial waters en route to the Falklands, to seek prior permission.

Cabinet Chief Anibal Fernandez said the decree sought to achieve "not only a defence of Argentine sovereignty but also of all the resources" in the area.

Last week, a ship carrying drilling equipment was detained by Argentine officials.

  While, of course, Argentina is free to do what it wants in its territorial waters, I don't think they have any right to interfere in ours

Jan Cheek
Falklands' Legislative Assembly


Q&A: The Falklands oil row
Have Your Say: How serious is row? 
But a drilling rig from the Scottish highlands, the Ocean Guardian, is nearing the islands and due to start drilling next week, the UK-based company Desire Petroleum has said.

However, a spokesman for the company declined to comment on the growing dispute between the UK and Argentina over oil and gas exploration.

Chairman of the Parliamentary all-party Falklands group, Sir Nicholas Winterton, said the Argentine decree was "pathetic and useless" and designed simply to try to impede the economic progress of the islands.

He said he would seek a meeting with senior Foreign Office officials to discuss the issue next week.

BBC world affairs correspondent Peter Biles said Argentine anger over the issue had been "brewing for a while".

He said: "The sabre-rattling over oil in the South Atlantic is just the latest episode in a dispute that's remained unresolved since the Falklands War nearly 28 years ago."

Ocean expanse

He told BBC Radio 5 live he did not think events would escalate "at this stage" but uncertainty remained over what the Argentines regarded as their territorial waters.

After Argentina's invasion of the Falklands in 1982, a UK taskforce seized back control in a short war that claimed the lives of 649 Argentine and 255 British soldiers.

The waters surrounding the disputed islands are considered by the UK as part of the British Overseas Territories.

  We want, and have offered, to co-operate on South Atlantic issues. We will work to develop this relationship further

UK Foreign Office statement
But Buenos Aires believes the UK is illegally occupying the Falklands, South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands.

Last year it submitted a claim to the United Nations for a vast expanse of ocean, based on research into the extent of the continental shelf, stretching to the Antarctic and including the island chains governed by Britain.

Jan Cheek, a member of the Falklands' Legislative Assembly, told BBC Radio 5 live the new controls were part of a "continuing irritation for us".

"While, of course, Argentina is free to do what it wants in its territorial waters, I don't think they have any right to interfere in ours," she said.

She added Argentina had in the past "interfered" by refusing charter flights heading to the Falklands through its air space, and stopping fishing and cargo vessels.

"It's more of the same and we come to expect it when Argentina's government are experiencing difficulties at home. We're a very convenient distraction."

A UK Foreign Office statement said: "Regulations governing Argentine territorial waters are a matter for the Argentine authorities.

"This does not affect Falkland Islands territorial waters which are controlled by the island authorities."

It added that the UK and Argentina were "important partners" with a "close and productive relationship".

"We want, and have offered, to co-operate on South Atlantic issues. We will work to develop this relationship further," the statement said.

Geologists think the South Atlantic ocean bed surrounding the Falklands could contain rich energy reserves.
 

Offline pantbash

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2010, 08:41:20 am »
Argentina will win this time.
They have an unpopular bird in charge :p

Seems to be the determining factor so far.
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Offline SwedenRed

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2010, 08:49:09 am »
Argentina will win this time.
They have an unpopular bird in charge :p

Seems to be the determining factor so far.
So have we...! Recipe for War.

Offline BIGdavalad

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2010, 09:30:37 am »
Argentina can do the square root of fuck all about it. Their economy's deeper in the shit than ours, their Armed Forces are still stuck in the 1980s and have had very little new equipment since 1982 and the four Typhoons based on the Falklands would wipe their air force out in a morning.

All we need to do is park one of our sleek black nuclear dealers of death next to Stanley so the Argies know that it's there and then let it slide off under the oggin. The first time their navy leaves port they get a guided tour of the Belgrano for their troubles.

Frankly, they don't have a hope of succeeding in any military action against the Falklands. Their navy couldn't enforce an embargo on their own ports, never mind a large section of the South Atlantic
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Offline MichaelA

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2010, 09:34:24 am »

All we need to do is park one of our sleek black nuclear dealers of death next to Stanley so the Argies know that it's there and then let it slide off under the oggin. The first time their navy leaves port they get a guided tour of the Belgrano for their troubles.

Which is what we have done by all accounts. Neither country wants or needs this, it sounds like a bit of muscle flexing for the domestic market.

Offline Corkboy

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2010, 10:45:34 am »
I thought the only justification for keeping control over a few islands half way round the world was to protect the inhabitants. Do the inhabitants now include subterranean decomposed carbon?

Offline BIGdavalad

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2010, 12:41:59 pm »
I thought the only justification for keeping control over a few islands half way round the world was to protect the inhabitants. Do the inhabitants now include subterranean decomposed carbon?

Every country in the world also has claims over the seas surrounding them, why would the Falkland Islands/South Georgia/South Sandwich Islands be any different?



Besides which, this whole story's balls. Argentineans can't fight and there's not a chance they'll do anything against the Islands. It's a standard Argentinean whinge about the Falklands, which come around regular as clockwork because they know there's sod all else they can do about the Islands being British.
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Offline SwedenRed

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2010, 12:52:34 pm »
Every country in the world also has claims over the seas surrounding them, why would the Falkland Islands/South Georgia/South Sandwich Islands be any different?

Besides which, this whole story's balls. Argentineans can't fight and there's not a chance they'll do anything against the Islands. It's a standard Argentinean whinge about the Falklands, which come around regular as clockwork because they know there's sod all else they can do about the Islands being British.
We are overstretched though. Did we only have 1 ship to patrol the whole of the Atlantic? The Argies President could use this to gain needed support...and may escalate, even though they would get whooped!.
And I agree...The oil is British. They reckon there is twice more there than the whole of the North Sea! Why should we let another Country take it whan its ours?

Offline BIGdavalad

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2010, 01:00:10 pm »
We are overstretched though.

It doesn't matter. A troop of Boy Scouts armed with conkers could hold off the Argentinean armed forces these days. There's a very large and well equipped (comparatively) force on the Falklands now, including Tyhpoon fighters, patrol ships (I believe HMS York is down there at the minute too) and we've got plenty of SSNs that we can deploy if needs be.

The Typhoons can wipe out the entire Arg. air force in one go (those that don't drop out of the sky before they get into range - I wouldn't bet on aircraft maintenance being a very high priority in an air force starved of money for years) and a single SSN stationed in the South Atlantic will have their navy too scared to leave port. If they were stupid enough to sail then they'd be decimated before they ever saw the Islands.
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Offline Corkboy

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2010, 02:06:27 pm »
Every country in the world also has claims over the seas surrounding them, why would the Falkland Islands/South Georgia/South Sandwich Islands be any different?

Because this is a bit of your country that's unhelpfully located half way across the planet? Are you going to drill around Gibraltar next?

And I agree...The oil is British. They reckon there is twice more there than the whole of the North Sea! Why should we let another Country take it whan its ours?

My memory of the Falklands War was Britain justifying it because the Islanders were British. I didn't know oil had a nationality.

Anyway, the bits with oil in them are probably governed by the Antarctic Treaty so you can't get at the oil.

Offline MichaelA

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2010, 02:23:22 pm »
Because this is a bit of your country that's unhelpfully located half way across the planet? Are you going to drill around Gibraltar next?

These subjects haven't been as restless as other former subjects that are much closer to home. ;)

Offline Sarge

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2010, 02:29:52 pm »
Get over that handball ffs!
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Offline Terry de Niro

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2010, 02:35:31 pm »
Get over that handball ffs!
Most "Liverpool fans" couldn't give a shite about Maradona's hand ball.
Irish fans on the other hand..  ;)

Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2010, 02:35:52 pm »
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8519807.stm

"However, it was Argentina that unilaterally decided in 2007 to scrap an agreement with the UK to share the proceeds of any oil discoveries in Falklands waters. "
Ooops.

Mind you, it's not just the Argentines arguing over who owns what. The Irish Government, with some historical right, seem quite keen on what's around and possibly underneath here.

But it all seems to become a dirty business when oil is possibly involved.
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Offline GREGtheRED

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2010, 02:39:29 pm »
Because this is a bit of your country that's unhelpfully located half way across the planet? Are you going to drill around Gibraltar next?

My memory of the Falklands War was Britain justifying it because the Islanders were British. I didn't know oil had a nationality.

Anyway, the bits with oil in them are probably governed by the Antarctic Treaty so you can't get at the oil.

yes, because its a UK territory...

UK territory = UK citizens + UK resources...

dont see why thats difficult to understand.

Offline Corkboy

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2010, 02:46:50 pm »
yes, because its a UK territory...

UK territory = UK citizens + UK resources...

dont see why thats difficult to understand.


And as I have made my point clearly twice now, you obviously don't understand so I'll leave it there.

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2010, 02:59:50 pm »
I thought the only justification for keeping control over a few islands half way round the world was to protect the inhabitants. Do the inhabitants now include subterranean decomposed carbon?
Of course it does. What's ours is ours and what's theirs is ours, it's been the British way now for 300 hundreds years.
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Offline SP

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2010, 03:01:35 pm »
I thought the only justification for keeping control over a few islands half way round the world was to protect the inhabitants. Do the inhabitants now include subterranean decomposed carbon?

The protection of your citizens includes the protection of their legal exploitation of natural resources. All I have seen anyone here talking about is responding to aggression. There is no plan to invade Argentina for oil. The unpopular Argentine government is sabre rattling for domestic consumption. Their economy may be screwed, but a bit of jingoism helps bolster support.

Offline SMD

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2010, 03:08:46 pm »
It's okay, we've got the England Supporters Club to make sure they know they'll never take the Falklands.
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Offline SwedenRed

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2010, 03:37:47 pm »
It's okay, we've got the England Supporters Club to make sure they know they'll never take the Falklands.
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Offline Mr Premier League

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2010, 03:43:18 pm »
If it wasn't for their behaviour in the past, we probably would have given them the Islands by now. But no, couldn't wait and decided to delare war. Oh well.
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Offline Corkboy

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2010, 03:51:11 pm »
Of course it does. What's ours is ours and what's theirs is ours, it's been the British way now for 300 hundreds years.

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Offline SP

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2010, 03:52:46 pm »
Of course it does. What's ours is ours and what's theirs is ours, as long as the Americans say its OK. it's been the British way now for 60  years.

Corrected for you.

Offline BIGdavalad

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2010, 05:57:01 pm »
Because this is a bit of your country that's unhelpfully located half way across the planet? Are you going to drill around Gibraltar next?

Dunno, is there any oil there?

What does where the Islands happen to be have to do with anything? They've been British for a long time, the people who live there are happy for that to remain the case and the only other people who really care are the country who wish to incorporate them into their own country against the population's wishes and without any justification except for them being quite close, which apparently isn't justification enough for anyone else so why should it be for Argentina?
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Offline Maggie May

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2010, 07:14:20 pm »
Dunno, is there any oil there?

What does where the Islands happen to be have to do with anything? They've been British for a long time, the people who live there are happy for that to remain the case and the only other people who really care are the country who wish to incorporate them into their own country against the population's wishes and without any justification except for them being quite close, which apparently isn't justification enough for anyone else so why should it be for Argentina?

Damn right Dava. 
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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2010, 07:40:10 pm »
We are overstretched though. Did we only have 1 ship to patrol the whole of the Atlantic? The Argies President could use this to gain needed support...and may escalate, even though they would get whooped!.
And I agree...The oil is British. They reckon there is twice more there than the whole of the North Sea! Why should we let another Country take it whan its ours?
Are you kidding? What does "ours" mean? Means fuck all. Oil is Earth's, if you go by moral side of it. It belongs to humanity as a whole. But comments on here are strange, so you guys actually are rooting for "we have guns and we will take what we want" ideology? Is this a heritage from British Imperialism or just 2-3 people having those ideas?

Extrapolating this viewpoint, any person can take anything they want, as long as they are strong enough to do so, or armed enough to do so. That's a fucked up ideology if you ask me.

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2010, 07:45:43 pm »
Most "Liverpool fans" couldn't give a shite about Maradona's hand ball.
Irish fans on the other hand..  ;)
Thats what they try and have people believe  :P

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2010, 07:50:21 pm »
If there's oil off Gibraltar then we'll have that too thanks very much. Much in the same way that the Spanish would claim oil off Ceuta.
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Offline BIGdavalad

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2010, 07:51:21 pm »
Are you kidding? What does "ours" mean? Means fuck all. Oil is Earth's, if you go by moral side of it. It belongs to humanity as a whole. But comments on here are strange, so you guys actually are rooting for "we have guns and we will take what we want" ideology? Is this a heritage from British Imperialism or just 2-3 people having those ideas?

Extrapolating this viewpoint, any person can take anything they want, as long as they are strong enough to do so, or armed enough to do so. That's a fucked up ideology if you ask me.

The Islands are legally (since everyone agrees, except the Argentineans who are basically irrelevent to the argument) and morally (since it's what the population of the Islands want) British. Therefore anything within the area covered by the Islands and the maritime zone pertaining to them are also British.
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Offline Maggie May

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #29 on: February 18, 2010, 07:53:42 pm »
Are you kidding? What does "ours" mean? Means fuck all. Oil is Earth's, if you go by moral side of it. It belongs to humanity as a whole. But comments on here are strange, so you guys actually are rooting for "we have guns and we will take what we want" ideology? Is this a heritage from British Imperialism or just 2-3 people having those ideas?

Extrapolating this viewpoint, any person can take anything they want, as long as they are strong enough to do so, or armed enough to do so. That's a fucked up ideology if you ask me.

Oh I do love posts like this.  Especially the "guys" and "British Imperialism heritage" bollix.  Without wishing to be unkind at all, (and you really should stop extrapolating because (a) its disgusting and, (b), received wisdom says you will grow hair on the palms of your hands and possibly go blind) - that's generally the way things work, kidda.   ::)
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Offline Corkboy

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #30 on: February 18, 2010, 10:27:11 pm »
Dunno, is there any oil there?

What does where the Islands happen to be have to do with anything? They've been British for a long time, the people who live there are happy for that to remain the case and the only other people who really care are the country who wish to incorporate them into their own country against the population's wishes and without any justification except for them being quite close, which apparently isn't justification enough for anyone else so why should it be for Argentina?

This is mostly fine.

Therefore anything within the area covered by the Islands and the maritime zone pertaining to them are also British.

This isn't. The maritime zones around those parts aren't exactly clear.

Look, the idea of having far flung colonies is really outdated and frankly a bit shitty (as both you and Maggie well know) but if the people are happy that way then fine, that's their choice. Nonetheless, it's clearly an imperial hangover and by all geographical logic, they should belong to Argentina so laying claim to nearby oil reserves is even more shitty. Unless the oil reserves say they want to remain British, too.

If there's oil off Gibraltar then we'll have that too thanks very much.

There isn't and you're not having any Malvinas oil either. Both you and the Argies agreed not to drill around those parts a long time ago, along with a bunch of other countries. So it's really all a bit of a try on by the Argies to look tough and for that dour Scots man you have to do likewise.

Offline BIGdavalad

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2010, 10:43:39 pm »
Nonetheless, it's clearly an imperial hangover and by all geographical logic, they should belong to Argentina so laying claim to nearby oil reserves is even more shitty. Unless the oil reserves say they want to remain British, too.

The Falklands are more than 300 miles from the coast of Argentina. I'm fairly Cork is closer to where I'm sat right now than that - does that mean the island of Ireland belongs to Great Britain? Does Sri Lanka belong to India? New Zealand to Australia? Ownership of the land should be decided by the people who live on it, not which country happens to be closest.

If the land is British then the seas around the land are also British, just as the seas around any other land belong to the land they surround.
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Offline Corkboy

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #32 on: February 18, 2010, 10:51:48 pm »
The Falklands are more than 300 miles from the coast of Argentina. I'm fairly Cork is closer to where I'm sat right now than that - does that mean the island of Ireland belongs to Great Britain? Does Sri Lanka belong to India? New Zealand to Australia? Ownership of the land should be decided by the people who live on it, not which country happens to be closest.

Agreed.

If the land is British then the seas around the land are also British, just as the seas around any other land belong to the land they surround.

You see, I just think that's pushing it. Quite simply, farflung former colonies are geopolitical oddities and they shouldn't have the same maritime property rights. That's my personal opinion, nothing more, but it smells all wrong to me.

Offline xavidub

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #33 on: February 18, 2010, 10:57:05 pm »
The Falklands are more than 300 miles from the coast of Argentina. I'm fairly Cork is closer to where I'm sat right now than that - does that mean the island of Ireland belongs to Great Britain? Ownership of the land should be decided by the people who live on it, not which country happens to be closest.



Funny how it took the British Govt 800 years to understand that :)
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Offline Walshy7

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #34 on: February 18, 2010, 11:21:05 pm »
Falklands for the argies!!!
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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #35 on: February 18, 2010, 11:24:59 pm »
Quite simply, farflung former colonies are geopolitical oddities and they shouldn't have the same maritime property rights. That's my personal opinion, nothing more, but it smells all wrong to me.
Common sense would dictate that the boundary between two countries' maritime zones should be the point equidistant between the two coastlines surely...

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #36 on: February 18, 2010, 11:41:44 pm »
Falklands for the argies!!!
Why? Its ours. History have made our maps what they are now. And fortunately for us the Falklands are British.
All that oil... Will be good for our economy. 

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #37 on: February 19, 2010, 12:04:35 am »
Common sense would dictate that the boundary between two countries' maritime zones should be the point equidistant between the two coastlines surely...

No, we're beyond that. There's no sense in giving oil enough for 10 million people to an island of 3,600 folks. That simply amounts to a lottery win for the parent state.

Maritime limits should be based on need, first and foremost. If you have two neighbouring islands, one densely populated, one sparsely populated, why should the shares be equal? We are people, not land masses.

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #38 on: February 19, 2010, 01:24:40 am »
No, we're beyond that. There's no sense in giving oil enough for 10 million people to an island of 3,600 folks. That simply amounts to a lottery win for the parent state.

Maritime limits should be based on need, first and foremost. If you have two neighbouring islands, one densely populated, one sparsely populated, why should the shares be equal? We are people, not land masses.

So, you going to take all of Norway's cash then?

Offline Terry de Niro

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Re: British and Argentina relations strained
« Reply #39 on: February 19, 2010, 01:32:14 am »
When the Falklands war first kicked off, how many people thought that they where just off the coast of Scotland?  :P