Topic: Anfield Road Extension - Construction work resumed on 12th September 2023.

[Peter McGurk]

Thanks Peter, I hope they can do something as the kop is the most famous stand in the world, so seeing it dwarfed by the other stands isn’t ideal, so never say never hopefully.

Did this a loooong time ago...

[meady1981]

Whenever people fling around figures from 70-80k, apart from transport issues one thing I always wonder is at what capacity do local residents get to veto any plan purely based on the detriment to their living standards? Is there a figure? Would they ever have the power to oppose it? There was plenty of opposition to the Annie Road stand.

[PeterTheRed ...]

Unfortunately, a third tier would be too steep for the regulations (the existing upper is already at the max). So to get the right 'sightlines' it's either a total re-build, a re-build from the lower upwards (maybe) or funnily enough, raising the pitch (maybe)

I am not sure that I like the idea of raising the pitch, probably because of Old Trafford. So, you are saying that extending the upper tier is also not possible, if we can't add another tier?

[Peter McGurk]

I am not sure that I like the idea of raising the pitch, probably because of Old Trafford. So, you are saying that extending the upper tier is also not possible, if we can't add another tier?

A third tier would have to be steeper than the second tier to see the nearside edge of the pitch, which as it stands can't happen because the second tier is at the maximum permitted angle (34deg).

So it's either re-build completely, re-build the second tier at say 32deg (but this will adversely affect the view and might not work) and add a third tier at 34deg or, add a third tier at 34 degrees and raise the pitch to change all the sightlines (which again, might not work because it's a long and tedious set of calculations which I haven't worked out).



Or stuff it, break the rules and build steeper than 34 deg - anybody been in the back of the Bernabeu?

Whenever people fling around figures from 70-80k, apart from transport issues one thing I always wonder is at what capacity do local residents get to veto any plan purely based on the detriment to their living standards? Is there a figure? Would they ever have the power to oppose it? There was plenty of opposition to the Annie Road stand.

I don't think there was actually (this time round) - like anything else you'd have to see what a planning application would bring and what other benefits there would be. Or in planning terms, what 'benefits' would justify what 'harm'.

So far, I'd argue redeveloping the ground has done more good than harm to the area however contentious that sounds.

[PeterTheRed ...]

A third tier would have to be steeper than the second tier to see the nearside edge of the pitch, which as it stands can't happen because the second tier is at the maximum permitted angle (34deg).

So it's either re-build completely, re-build the second tier at say 32deg (but this will adversely affect the view and might not work) and add a third tier at 34deg or, add a third tier at 34 degrees and raise the pitch to change all the sightlines (which again, might not work because it's a long and tedious set of calculations which I haven't worked out).



Or stuff it, break the rules and build steeper than 34 deg - anybody been in the back of the Bernabeu?

This might be a stupid question, but can we extend the 2nd tier at present 34 degrees, so the SKD stand looks like the upgraded ARE stand?

[Peter McGurk]

This might be a stupid question, but can we extend the 2nd tier at present 34 degrees, so the SKD stand looks like the upgraded ARE stand?

Only maybe - depends on doing the calculations but I do seem to recall from the dim and distant past that it doesn't work. The geometry of the Lower ARE and Lower Centenary are different, I think.

You can see from that bottom image that the bottom of the Upper Centenary SKD is higher than the bottom of the Upper ARE, thus squeezing the sightlines but then the new ARE is at a lower angle (presumably to keep the height down vs overshadowing the park). Also depends on how close the Upper SKD is to the pitch

Just noticed something doesn't seem right. The existing Lower ARE has changed angle?? Distorted images?

[Redric1970]

Did this a loooong time ago...

That would look fantastic Peter, any idea what that would add capacity wise, and is it still possible to do something like that in the future. And in your opinion what would a guesstimate of the cost be.

[Peter McGurk]

That would look fantastic Peter, any idea what that would add capacity wise, and is it still possible to do something like that in the future. And in your opinion what would a guesstimate of the cost be.

As I said above, about an extra 4,000 but my guess not opinion (!) is anywhere between £10,000 and £20,000 a seat or a 12 to 25 year pay back. Anything is possible - depends on how hard you want it.

[PeterTheRed ...]

Only maybe - depends on doing the calculations but I do seem to recall from the dim and distant past that it doesn't work. The geometry of the Lower ARE and Lower Centenary are different, I think.

You can see from that bottom image that the bottom of the Upper Centenary SKD is higher than the bottom of the Upper ARE, thus squeezing the sightlines but then the new ARE is at a lower angle (presumably to keep the height down vs overshadowing the park). Also depends on how close the Upper SKD is to the pitch

Just noticed something doesn't seem right. The existing Lower ARE has changed angle?? Distorted images?

Thank you for the explanation. I hope that the club will take a good look at it. I don't think that the houses on Skerries Rd would be such a big problem, if the extension of the upper tier of the SKD stand (not a new tier) is possible ...

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

Unfortunately, a third tier would be too steep for the regulations (the existing upper is already at the max). So to get the right 'sightlines' it's either a total re-build, a re-build from the lower upwards (maybe) or funnily enough, raising the pitch (maybe)

Always think this is really dangerous and I'm surprised it's allowed - players can't stop themselves when they run off the pitch. It also makes taking corners more difficult.

[rob1966]

Unfortunately, a third tier would be too steep for the regulations (the existing upper is already at the max). So to get the right 'sightlines' it's either a total re-build, a re-build from the lower upwards (maybe) or funnily enough, raising the pitch (maybe)

I went in the Upper when it first opened and was amazed at how steep it was, felt if you tripped on the steps you'd end up rolling all the way down into the lower

[TepidT2O]

Would be opening in a couple of months if it weren’t for covid…

[Peter McGurk]

I went in the Upper when it first opened and was amazed at how steep it was, felt if you tripped on the steps you'd end up rolling all the way down into the lower

All the more reason to expect that just adding on at the same angle doesn't work if it had to be made that steep in the first place.

[rob1966]

All the more reason to expect that just adding on at the same angle doesn't work if it had to be made that steep in the first place.

Yeah, the only way we can extend the Kenny is by removing the Upper and going back at a shallower angle, but that isn't happening while Skerries Rd still has houses on it.

[PeterTheRed ...]

Yeah, the only way we can extend the Kenny is by removing the Upper and going back at a shallower angle, but that isn't happening while Skerries Rd still has houses on it.

Any upgrade on the SKD stand would require for that row of houses on the Skerries Rd to be bought end removed. Anyway, I think that we are all speculating now. I am sure that the club are already making the calculations what are the options for further increase of the capacity, what is technically possible, and how much it would cost. At the moment, I am delighted with the ARE upgrade ...

[Peter McGurk]

Any upgrade on the SKD stand would require for that row of houses on the Skerries Rd to be bought end removed. Anyway, I think that we are all speculating now. I am sure that the club are already making the calculations what are the options for further increase of the capacity, what is technically possible, and how much it would cost. At the moment, I am delighted with the ARE upgrade ...

Yes, speculation but “a man can dream else what’s a heaven for?”

Yeah, the only way we can extend the Kenny is by removing the Upper and going back at a shallower angle, but that isn't happening while Skerries Rd still has houses on it.

Maybe just to round it off then… don’t have to go further back to lower the angle but if you did, you probably wouldn’t be able to see the whole pitch.

Whichever way, both sides of Skerries would need to go for safety margin outside of the ground

[Alan_X]

Yeah, the only way we can extend the Kenny is by removing the Upper and going back at a shallower angle, but that isn't happening while Skerries Rd still has houses on it.

Pretty sure you’d have demolish everything and start from scratch. The angle of the upper SKD is set by the angle of the old Kemlyn (lower SKD). Building at a lower angle would mean unacceptable sight lines.

*edit - as Peter says above.

[afc tukrish]

Yes, speculation but “a man can dream else what’s a heaven for?”

Training sessions with Shanks...

[Ghost Town]

I went in the Upper when it first opened and was amazed at how steep it was, felt if you tripped on the steps you'd end up rolling all the way down into the lower

I was in the very back row recently for a match. It's very steep as you say, people very gingerly picking their way down the steps. Really wouldn't want it any steeper. Very enclosed feeling back there as well. No problem for me but I wouldn't want to be there if I were claustrophobic

[rob1966]

Pretty sure you’d have demolish everything and start from scratch. The angle of the upper SKD is set by the angle of the old Kemlyn (lower SKD). Building at a lower angle would mean unacceptable sight lines.

*edit - as Peter says above.

I was never sure if they went that steep with the Upper due to sight lines or just the restrictions in space/ light on the houses issues behind the stand when they built it.

I was in the very back row recently for a match. It's very steep as you say, people very gingerly picking their way down the steps. Really wouldn't want it any steeper. Very enclosed feeling back there as well. No problem for me but I wouldn't want to be there if I were claustrophobic

I was in the very back row in 92 (ish), it was the December game v Blackburn and Kennys return and I remember you could barely see Souey and Kenny stood up and when there was a goalkick, it was a game of guess where the ball will reappear.

[Crosby Nick]

Mark Walters!

[TepidT2O]

I was never sure if they went that steep with the Upper due to sight lines or just the restrictions in space/ light on the houses issues behind the stand when they built it.

I was in the very back row in 92 (ish), it was the December game v Blackburn and Kennys return and I remember you could barely see Souey and Kenny stood up and when there was a goalkick, it was a game of guess where the ball will reappear.

Was that the game where Ruddock nearly broke Riplleys leg?

[Ghost Town]

I was in the very back row in 92 (ish), it was the December game v Blackburn and Kennys return and I remember you could barely see Souey and Kenny stood up and when there was a goalkick, it was a game of guess where the ball will reappear.

Yes a strip the pitch (lengthwise) is not visible if you stand. Technically I guess it's not a restricted view seat provided you and those in front of you stay sitting, but as soon as you stand, it is.

I wouldn't choose to sit there again

[Alan_X]

I was never sure if they went that steep with the Upper due to sight lines or just the restrictions in space/ light on the houses issues behind the stand when they built it.

It’s a common mistake to think that a steeper stand gets more rows, but that’s not the case. Steepness is about achieving the best possible c-value without building too high (spending more money).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sightline

[Peter McGurk]

Training sessions with Shanks...

Keats isn't it!?

It’s a common mistake to think that a steeper stand gets more rows, but that’s not the case. Steepness is about achieving the best possible c-value without building too high (spending more money).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sightline

The other killer is height. The boxes raise the Upper by a good 2m thus making the viewing angle steeper and hence the c-value worse and hence the angle of the upper as steep as possible to get over it. So-called "bunker boxes" would help but that's a re-build from Lower upwards as a minimum. Also I know how much everyone loves the legroom in the old Kemlyn Road stand...

See from this if you raise the upper for boxes, you quickly run Ito the yellow sightlines:




(Slightly) simpler version of the c-value calculation (courtesy of the Green Book). In theory you have to work it out for every seat to prove that every seat is safe, although the worst case is often taken to get started with and some judgement is allowed of an 'experienced designer' (get it wrong and you go to gaol)

[Mark Walters]

Mark Walters!

Yes?

[Thepooloflife]

Yes?

 

[Thepooloflife]

Or stuff it, break the rules and build steeper than 34 deg - anybody been in the back of the Bernabeu?

<snip>

Yeah - top tier back in the day when Yossi scored the winner......cue bedlam in the away end - both mad and frightening at the same time !

Never been in such a steep section as that....bodies flying everywhere.

[Mark Walters]

....anybody been in the back of the Bernabeu?

Yes. You're so far from the pitch that you can't clearly determine one player from another.  Was there in 99 to see them play Valencia and the only player I could make out was Seedorf because he had dreads! But it was pretty terrifying up there!

[daggerdoo]

Is the bernabeu steeper than the nou camp, never been the bernabeu

[kopite321]

This thread is a cluster fuck.. totally off topic… again.

[meady1981]

To be fair, there’s only so much mileage you can get out of a few concrete stair-well shafts incrementally getting higher. No matter how many times you fly a drone over it. No wonder the topic strays a little.

[kopite321]

To be fair, there’s only so much mileage you can get out of a few concrete stair-well shafts incrementally getting higher. No matter how many times you fly a drone over it. No wonder the topic strays a little.

Steel and concrete

https://youtu.be/MoeXb9NHsEk

[Ghost Town]

Steel and concrete

https://youtu.be/MoeXb9NHsEk

Is that the cheapo Channel 5 remake of Sapphire and Steel?

[kopite321]

Mr Drone.. has been up again…

https://youtu.be/evJOk5FpBMg

[Crosby Nick]

Yes?

Haha! Just doing the register.

[Macred]

So topic raised in SSC about how they are seemingly using more concrete in the construction, the method of building does seem different to how they built the main. They are building concrete cores, stairwell etc then presumably they will build the steel frame around it. Is that just a development of a new building technique, cheaper, faster or just because it is a smaller stand?

[CraigDS]

I imagine a lot of it will be down to the size of the stand compared to the Main, it also spans a shorter distance.

[Mark Walters]

Haha! Just doing the register.

Here sir! 🙋‍♂️

[Peter McGurk]

So topic raised in SSC about how they are seemingly using more concrete in the construction, the method of building does seem different to how they built the main. They are building concrete cores, stairwell etc then presumably they will build the steel frame around it. Is that just a development of a new building technique, cheaper, faster or just because it is a smaller stand?

Usual considerations are the cost of steel versus concrete (even though the concrete has plenty of steel in it). Spans and column spacing shouldn't change that much with the size of the stand - just more of them. The main stand was very quick but this is noticeably slower, perhaps because there isn't the same drive for speed from the club or the general volatility of pricing in recent times but I don't know what the contract is - whether that matters to the club or the contractor.

That said, progress has been pretty glacial and there are quicker ways of doing what they're doing, which suggests that time is less of an issue.