Author Topic: War on Drugs  (Read 107396 times)

Offline Mumm-Ra

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #760 on: April 13, 2021, 03:16:09 pm »
New York recently legalised weed, and now New Mexico has.

https://www.vox.com/2021/4/12/22360467/new-mexico-marijuana-legalization-law-michelle-lujan-grisham

And Virginia. 40% of the population in legal states now   :D. Come on Joe, make it federal.

Offline Drinks Sangria

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #761 on: April 14, 2021, 11:52:10 am »
Sadiq Khan with a divisive decision -

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/apr/05/mayor-of-london-sadiq-khan-cannabis-legalisation-drugs-commission

He wants - should he get re-elected - to examine the benefits of decriminalising cannabis in the Capital. A surprising 2/3 of Londoners apparently support legalisation.

Should this prove positive visa decriminalisation, it could be a stepping stone to future legalisation across the UK.
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Offline FlashGordon

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #762 on: April 14, 2021, 12:18:41 pm »
We be burning, might as well legalise it.
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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #763 on: April 14, 2021, 12:31:48 pm »
Decriminalisation is IMO not ideal.

It still leaves supply in the hands of (higher up the chain) organised crime. It still doesn't attract a tax/duty so all the profits are made by criminals, who then obviously don't pay income tax on the profits they make.

Also, whilst I appreciate the 'baby steps' tactic, the real harm in the drugs trade is through harder drugs. I know the study by ACPO was a few years ago now, but that concluded that two-thirds of theft-crime is committed to fund a drug addiction.

Treatment/rehabilitation for drug addiction is chronically underfunded.

Prohibition does not work. It doesn't stop people using the prohibited substance (whatever the intoxicant). It creates a massive income source for organised crime. It leads people to commit crime to fund their addiction. It leads to the state missing out of £billions in taxes. The variations in strength/purity and questionable manufacturing processes causes the deaths of users.

All it does is pander to the moralising idiocy of an albeit depressingly large section of the population.

By legalising and regulating the entire drug market, selling recreational drugs through licenced premises with a duty attached, and using the duties raised to fund an addiction register (supply of drugs to registered addicts on prescription) and proper programme of rehab/treatment, you address all of the tangible negatives of the drug trade that I have listed.

There would be inevitable outrage from the moralising section of the population - but most of these would rage as they slurp their 4th G&T or open a second bottle of Shiraz, without any notion of irony.

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Offline Elmo!

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #764 on: April 14, 2021, 12:39:19 pm »
Is it not the case these days that the vast majority of weed in the UK is from small, basically home grown operations? I'm not sure it is a massive income for organised crime anymore.

Still I do agree that decriminalisation is not as good as legalisation.

Offline Drinks Sangria

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #765 on: April 14, 2021, 12:48:50 pm »
The ideal approach is arguably legalisation of stuff like cannabis - allowing coffee shops and dispensaries that pay tax and business rates etc and not decriminalising things like heroin, but using the additional income from the cannabis trade to make more robust healthcare and social care processes around those caught up in it. Countries that treat addiction as a mental illness seem to be getting good results in terms of massively reducing drug-related recidivism.

Ultimately decriminalising something like heroin potentially just increases/sustains the amount of crime that goes on directly and residually from it anyway - but with less interference from policing which will then cause a cascade of other issues.
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Offline Nobby Reserve

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #766 on: April 14, 2021, 01:02:31 pm »
The ideal approach is arguably legalisation of stuff like cannabis - allowing coffee shops and dispensaries that pay tax and business rates etc and not decriminalising things like heroin, but using the additional income from the cannabis trade to make more robust healthcare and social care processes around those caught up in it. Countries that treat addiction as a mental illness seem to be getting good results in terms of massively reducing drug-related recidivism.

Ultimately decriminalising something like heroin potentially just increases/sustains the amount of crime that goes on directly and residually from it anyway - but with less interference from policing which will then cause a cascade of other issues.


Not just decriminalise it, but supply it for free to registered addicts on prescription.

Legalise and regulate sales of cannabis, coke, 'e', lsd, shrooms, etc.

It's up to people to what they put into their bodies. And people are going to take this stuff anyway. It's not like the state is 'winning the war on drugs'.

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #767 on: April 14, 2021, 01:04:45 pm »
Is it not the case these days that the vast majority of weed in the UK is from small, basically home grown operations? I'm not sure it is a massive income for organised crime anymore.


Home-grown isn't anything like that prevalent. Less is imported now, but the vast majority of green grown in this country is still done by operations with links to organised crime.

Cannabis was never the most profitable recreational drug anyway, though. Coke is - and still controlled by organised crime.
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Offline Commie Bobbie

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #768 on: April 14, 2021, 01:17:58 pm »
Decriminalisation is IMO not ideal.

It still leaves supply in the hands of (higher up the chain) organised crime. It still doesn't attract a tax/duty so all the profits are made by criminals, who then obviously don't pay income tax on the profits they make.

Also, whilst I appreciate the 'baby steps' tactic, the real harm in the drugs trade is through harder drugs. I know the study by ACPO was a few years ago now, but that concluded that two-thirds of theft-crime is committed to fund a drug addiction.

Treatment/rehabilitation for drug addiction is chronically underfunded.

Prohibition does not work. It doesn't stop people using the prohibited substance (whatever the intoxicant). It creates a massive income source for organised crime. It leads people to commit crime to fund their addiction. It leads to the state missing out of £billions in taxes. The variations in strength/purity and questionable manufacturing processes causes the deaths of users.

All it does is pander to the moralising idiocy of an albeit depressingly large section of the population.

By legalising and regulating the entire drug market, selling recreational drugs through licenced premises with a duty attached, and using the duties raised to fund an addiction register (supply of drugs to registered addicts on prescription) and proper programme of rehab/treatment, you address all of the tangible negatives of the drug trade that I have listed.

There would be inevitable outrage from the moralising section of the population - but most of these would rage as they slurp their 4th G&T or open a second bottle of Shiraz, without any notion of irony.



The same Moralising section of the population, who are incidentally hoovering up most of South America up their nostril.

Joking aside, that entire section is why I believe all drugs need decriminalising, sold and then taxable. A percentage of all taxes paid from such drugs are then given to governments where the drug trade has caused untold misery in the past.
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Offline reddebs

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #769 on: April 14, 2021, 01:22:34 pm »
My dad always advocated controlling the manufacture and selling of all drugs so it could be taxed and that was back in the 70s when drug abuse wasn't that prevalent. 

As a teenager at the time I was surprised as he would quite happily have still chopped the hands off thieves 🙄

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Offline Fromola

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #771 on: September 10, 2021, 05:52:14 pm »
What's the point of legalising cannabis but enforcing prohibition on all the others?

Its not pot that dealers are killing each other over and is making millions for organised crime. Pot still damages the brain though.
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Offline jonnypb

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #772 on: September 10, 2021, 06:02:11 pm »
What's the point of legalising cannabis but enforcing prohibition on all the others?

Its not pot that dealers are killing each other over and is making millions for organised crime. Pot still damages the brain though.

Cannabis is huge, it’s the second largest market of illegal drugs in the UK behind opiates, they estimate cocaine is the third largest. Dealers make more in dealing cannabis than they would selling cocaine due to the fact that there is three to four times as many people using cannabis than there is the likes of cocaine.

Offline Fromola

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #773 on: September 10, 2021, 07:05:28 pm »
Cannabis is huge, it’s the second largest market of illegal drugs in the UK behind opiates, they estimate cocaine is the third largest. Dealers make more in dealing cannabis than they would selling cocaine due to the fact that there is three to four times as many people using cannabis than there is the likes of cocaine.

True, it's still a money maker, and legalising it would take it out the hands of organised crime. But it's the Cocaine trade that always causes so much violence on top of that (as well as heroin).
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Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #774 on: September 10, 2021, 08:03:35 pm »
True, it's still a money maker, and legalising it would take it out the hands of organised crime. But it's the Cocaine trade that always causes so much violence on top of that (as well as heroin).

Outside of the UK ?
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Offline Mumm-Ra

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #775 on: September 14, 2021, 05:11:57 pm »
True, it's still a money maker, and legalising it would take it out the hands of organised crime. But it's the Cocaine trade that always causes so much violence on top of that (as well as heroin).

There's plenty of violence around the cannabis trade. If it's black market goods, in the hands of organized crime, with huge sums of cash moving around, and nobody involved can go to the police, then the substance is irrelevant.
Anyway reduction of violence isn't the only reason to change a law, is it?

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #776 on: December 6, 2021, 09:26:20 am »
Can't believe how backwards this is.

Quote
Middle-class drug users could lose UK passports under Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson’s plans
Campaigners say government going backwards by targeting ‘lifestyle’ users of class A drugs with tough criminal sanctions

Middle-class drug users are to be targeted as part of a 10-year strategy to be announced by Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson’s government with a heavy focus on war-on-drugs-era punishment.

So-called “lifestyle” users of class A drugs face losing their passports or driving licences under proposals designed to target wealthy professionals who the government will argue are driving exploitative practices with their demand.

Police officers will be handed powers to go through drug dealers’ phones and contact their clients with warnings about drug use in a bid to spook them into changing their behaviour.

The government’s 10-year drugs strategy will be published on Monday with a heavy focus on targeting users and suppliers, including gangs behind the so-called county lines phenomenon, which often sees young, vulnerable people turned into cross-country mules.

But drug reform campaigners have criticised the UK government for going “backwards” by embracing a criminal sanction-led approach while other countries and federal states are adopting more progressive approaches, such as legalisation of cannabis in Canada.

Some of the measures to be presented in the drugs strategy include:

>Contacting clients based on drug dealers’ seized phones with a range of messages to discourage their drug use and direct them to getting support.
>A commitment to dismantling more than 2,000 county lines and making thousands more arrests.
>Investing up to £145m in the county lines programme, targeting the road and rail networks and protecting those exploited and supporting them to rebuild their lives.
>Expanding drug testing on arrest – supporting police forces to test more individuals.
>Developing out-of-court disposal projects to ensure those who misuse drugs face tougher consequences.
>The largest ever single increase in investment in treatment and recovery, which is understood to be made available to 50 local authorities.

The announcement comes as drug poisoning deaths are at a record high, having increased by almost 80% since 2012.

Niamh Eastwood, executive director of thinktank Release, said: “While increased funding for drug treatment is welcomed, the focus on more punitive sentences for people who supply drugs is a continuation of a tired tough-on-drugs narrative, one that we have had in the UK for decades.

“This failed policy will do little to address the high rates of drug-related deaths, which over the last decade have increased year on year, with some of the highest rates in Europe.

“While New York announces the opening of drug consumption rooms, Germany moves to legalise cannabis, as many US states and Canada have already done, and over 30 countries have ended criminal sanctions for possession of drugs – Britain is going backwards, embracing a Nixon-style ‘war on drugs’ approach.”

Yvette Cooper, the shadow home secretary, said: “Too often the government makes grand promises, but then fails to deliver or does the opposite. Drug use is up, serious violence is up, antisocial behaviour is up. More and more offenders are getting away with their crimes as overall prosecutions have plummeted. Any action from the government must be substantial enough to undo the damage they have caused.”

The government said it will publish a white paper in due course which will look at new measures to reduce demand and deter people from illegal drug use through “more meaningful consequences”.

“We need to look at new ways of penalising them. Things that will actually interfere with their lives,” the prime minister told the Sun on Sunday. “So we will look at taking away their passports and driving licences.”

He added: “What I want to see is a world in which we have penalties for lifestyle drug users that will seriously interfere with their enjoyment of their own lifestyles.”

The civil penalties will be modelled on sanctions already used against parents who fail to pay child maintenance and banning orders for football hooligans, the Sun said.

The government announced in July it would establish a new unit to help end illegal drug-related illness and deaths, as the second part of Dame Carol Black’s independent review of drugs was released.

The first phase of the review, which was published in February, estimated there were 300,000 opiate or crack cocaine users in England, and about 1 million people had used cocaine in the past year.

Black’s review estimated that the illicit drug market in the UK was worth £9.4bn a year, but cost society more than double that figure in terms of health, crime and societal impacts.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/dec/06/middle-class-drug-users-could-lose-uk-passports-under-boris-johnsons-plans
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Offline AndyMuller

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #777 on: December 6, 2021, 09:32:27 am »
Just make drugs legal ffs.

Offline Red-Soldier

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #778 on: December 6, 2021, 09:59:30 am »
Can't believe how backwards this is.

Panders to their base.

Fits in with the fascist mantra too.

Offline Sudden Death Draft Loser

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #779 on: December 6, 2021, 10:00:22 am »
Can't believe how backwards this is.

Or hypocritical

Parliament drug use claims to be raised with police this week

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-59539589
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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #780 on: December 6, 2021, 11:09:08 am »
Panders to their base.

Fits in with the fascist mantra too.


Spot on. The narrative of targeting 'middle class professionals' will have the 'flagshagging, working class Bozo fanclub' creaming themselves.
 

Of course, it's all a pile of crap. As an actual expert on the matter explains in the same article:


Quote
Niamh Eastwood, executive director of thinktank Release, said: “While increased funding for drug treatment is welcomed, the focus on more punitive sentences for people who supply drugs is a continuation of a tired tough-on-drugs narrative, one that we have had in the UK for decades.

“This failed policy will do little to address the high rates of drug-related deaths, which over the last decade have increased year on year, with some of the highest rates in Europe.

“While New York announces the opening of drug consumption rooms, Germany moves to legalise cannabis, as many US states and Canada have already done, and over 30 countries have ended criminal sanctions for possession of drugs – Britain is going backwards, embracing a Nixon-style ‘war on drugs’ approach.”


But then, this corrupt government's thinking is that 'we've all had quite enough of experts'. Just pander to their 'base' to whip-up right-wing populism.


As AnyMuller says, just legalise them all (and sell them out of licenced stores, loaded with tax, which can be then used to fund proper rehab programmes)
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Offline nayia2002

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #781 on: December 6, 2021, 12:44:50 pm »
Wouldn't it be more beneficial to target big drug lords/dealers instead of middle class users  ::) ??? :o ::)

Or the best solution of all is to legalise all drugs through licensed professional stores/people
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Offline Fromola

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #782 on: December 6, 2021, 04:55:12 pm »
Just make drugs legal ffs.

How would organised crime and gangsters make their millions?
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Offline Fromola

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #783 on: December 6, 2021, 04:57:08 pm »
Wouldn't it be more beneficial to target big drug lords/dealers instead of middle class users  ::) ??? :o ::)

That makes no difference either. All the time, money and effort put into taking down a drug lord/dealer and there's someone else to take their place before he's been sentenced.

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Offline Buggy Eyes Alfredo

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #784 on: December 6, 2021, 05:17:43 pm »

Can I have your recipe?    ;)

Offline jambutty

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #785 on: December 9, 2021, 01:46:16 pm »
NZ grandfathering tobacco out at age 14.

Streets ahead of the world.
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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #786 on: December 9, 2021, 01:55:35 pm »
NZ grandfathering tobacco out at age 14.

Streets ahead of the world.

And maybe creating a new black market
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Offline jonnypb

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #787 on: December 9, 2021, 03:41:01 pm »
And maybe creating a new black market

Possibly, but at least they're trying to do something about it.  I think more and more of teenagers seem to vape now, as oppose to smoking cigarettes anyway.  I would imagine vaping works out a lot cheaper than cigarettes, plus you don't get the horrible smell and stained fingers with vapes, so it would be much more appealing than taking up cigarettes for the younger generation.

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #788 on: December 9, 2021, 06:00:45 pm »
Can't believe how backwards this is.

Who gets to determine the class of the cokhead?
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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #789 on: December 9, 2021, 09:31:09 pm »
Who gets to determine the class of the cokhead?

I don't like to brag, but .........

Mine's 1st class.  :wanker ;D
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Offline LiamG

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #790 on: December 14, 2021, 06:41:48 pm »
Malta has became the first European country to allow limited cultivation and possession of cannabis for personal use

https://www.euronews.com/2021/12/14/malta-set-to-be-first-eu-country-to-legalise-cannabis-for-personal-use

i mean it's one way of removing the illegal dealing, i don't know why countries are not following what some states in America have done, The U.S. cannabis industry is worth $61 billion!!!!
« Last Edit: December 14, 2021, 06:43:28 pm by LiamG »

Offline Mumm-Ra

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #791 on: December 14, 2021, 07:44:39 pm »
Malta has became the first European country to allow limited cultivation and possession of cannabis for personal use

https://www.euronews.com/2021/12/14/malta-set-to-be-first-eu-country-to-legalise-cannabis-for-personal-use

i mean it's one way of removing the illegal dealing, i don't know why countries are not following what some states in America have done, The U.S. cannabis industry is worth $61 billion!!!!

Germany's on the way I believe, I might have read it here. One thing to note about the States, in case you get too impressed at how progressive it is - is that all the moves to legalize were driven by voter initiatives, not the politicians themselves. Certain states allow citizens to put referendums on the ballot to change laws. Illinois was the first state to legalize purely through politicians. Weirdly, now that the industry is so lucrative, all that 'gateway drug' talk seems to have faded away and they have no issue with it.

In the UK, do people still go on about 'skunk psychosis' - that was the propaganda buzzword a few years back. Never heard that once in the states

Offline ianburns252

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #792 on: December 15, 2021, 10:00:26 am »
Germany's on the way I believe, I might have read it here. One thing to note about the States, in case you get too impressed at how progressive it is - is that all the moves to legalize were driven by voter initiatives, not the politicians themselves. Certain states allow citizens to put referendums on the ballot to change laws. Illinois was the first state to legalize purely through politicians. Weirdly, now that the industry is so lucrative, all that 'gateway drug' talk seems to have faded away and they have no issue with it.

In the UK, do people still go on about 'skunk psychosis' - that was the propaganda buzzword a few years back. Never heard that once in the states

I've never heard it called that but "skunk psychosis" to me is a bit of a chicken and the egg scenario - there are plenty of people I have come across in my time where I have thought that they need to put that shit down because it is screwing their brain up but, having not known them previously and therefore not knowing what they were like before they started on it, I can't say for certain that they weren't already divvies or at least highly susceptible.


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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #793 on: December 15, 2021, 10:33:28 am »
Germany's on the way I believe, I might have read it here. One thing to note about the States, in case you get too impressed at how progressive it is - is that all the moves to legalize were driven by voter initiatives, not the politicians themselves. Certain states allow citizens to put referendums on the ballot to change laws. Illinois was the first state to legalize purely through politicians. Weirdly, now that the industry is so lucrative, all that 'gateway drug' talk seems to have faded away and they have no issue with it.

In the UK, do people still go on about 'skunk psychosis' - that was the propaganda buzzword a few years back. Never heard that once in the states
I do know someone who got committed due to skunk psychosis.

Glad to see more and more things are getting legalised though. The sooner everything is legalised the better and then we can start dealing with the problems with drugs instead of just wasting resources arresting people.

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #794 on: December 15, 2021, 10:35:07 am »
Malta has became the first European country to allow limited cultivation and possession of cannabis for personal use

https://www.euronews.com/2021/12/14/malta-set-to-be-first-eu-country-to-legalise-cannabis-for-personal-use

i mean it's one way of removing the illegal dealing, i don't know why countries are not following what some states in America have done, The U.S. cannabis industry is worth $61 billion!!!!
Most European countries aren't as suited for growing the crops as the US is. Would really benefit some of the southern European countries though like Greece.

Must be one of the only progressive policies that the US is miles ahead of the UK on though.

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #795 on: December 15, 2021, 03:32:49 pm »
I've never heard it called that but "skunk psychosis" to me is a bit of a chicken and the egg scenario - there are plenty of people I have come across in my time where I have thought that they need to put that shit down because it is screwing their brain up but, having not known them previously and therefore not knowing what they were like before they started on it, I can't say for certain that they weren't already divvies or at least highly susceptible.


I quit skunk several years ago because it was proper fucking my brain up. It's a little like being trapped in a dream, and I'd have spells of going totally blank (when it happened in a few client meetings, I knew I had to stop)

Not fully back to normal even now (but that may be down to still smoking, even though sticking rigidly to block and only making weak ones)

A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #796 on: December 15, 2021, 05:09:20 pm »

I quit skunk several years ago because it was proper fucking my brain up. It's a little like being trapped in a dream, and I'd have spells of going totally blank (when it happened in a few client meetings, I knew I had to stop)

Not fully back to normal even now (but that may be down to still smoking, even though sticking rigidly to block and only making weak ones)

The guys I'm thinking of were the ones who were adamant that smoking it opened their mind up or made them clever and allowed them to see what us sheep couldn't.

Shock horror, 90% of them would name Bill Hicks as a hero!!!


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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #797 on: December 15, 2021, 09:43:43 pm »
And maybe creating a new black market

New? There's already a black market for tobacco here in Aus and NZ.

Australian Tax Office helps police uncover illegal tobacco crop worth over $11m near ACT border https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-23/ato-illegal-tobacco-crop-worth-over-$11-million-found-at-cooma/8380898

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #798 on: December 15, 2021, 09:56:09 pm »

I quit skunk several years ago because it was proper fucking my brain up. It's a little like being trapped in a dream, and I'd have spells of going totally blank (when it happened in a few client meetings, I knew I had to stop)

Not fully back to normal even now (but that may be down to still smoking, even though sticking rigidly to block and only making weak ones)


There's different weed for different needs,some will put your on your arse & is best before bed,others will have you working like you've done a gram of base & others will have you socialising and laughing.

By block do you mean solid,if so I hope you know where it comes from and what's in it.
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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #799 on: December 15, 2021, 10:24:52 pm »
Used to smoke a lot of weed, from too young an age. But for the last 8 years or so I have only ever smoked it on the very odd occasion (basically when I am already drunk and out with other people). Smoking it any other time basically just makes me socially anxious and paranoid. Most of the people I knew who grew up smoking it religiously have stopped it completely for similar reasons, or at least massively cut down

I am fully on board with the legalisation of cannabis. But I remember growing up smoking it, and I would argue until the cows came home that there is no, or very few, negative side-effects as to why it should not be legalised. I realise now that is just not the case. For all those who did end up giving up smoking or falling into a more moderate smoking pattern, I know other people who have basically wasted their lives sitting around smoking away, and become recluses with very little going for them. Of course that is not just down to smoking weed - these are probably people that way inclined anyway, but the weed definitely hasn´t helped.

But I also know people for whom excessive cannabis consumption has definitely helped trigger some serious underlying mental conditions.

As for me, I have experienced noticiable memory loss in recent years. I do wander how all my years of adolescent smoking might have effected that? And who knows in what other ways my developing brain may have been affected?

Now I would argue one of the strongest reasons for legalising it, aside from all the reasons that apply to all other drugs (regulation to make safer, taking money away from criminals, the difficulty of arguing for prohibition on a moral level when alcohol remains one of the worst drugs...), is to make it harder for adolescents to get a hold of. I remember growing up it was always easier buying a bag of weed, then finding someone with an ID to get served for alcohol (which also involved walking to the shops - whereas ordering weed involved sitting on your arse!).