Topic: TAW Annie Road End - John Henry's comments

[Jake]

What you fail to realise is that what Graham and everyone else involved in the walkout did will result in you saving £500 on your season ticket over the coming years anyway Craig.

Nobody fails to realise that. It has no relevance to the discussion. Craig asked why people would pay five hundred quid for a share with no voting rights or other benefits and you reply with "there was a protest!!""

My head hurts. Same old circular bullshit all night

[Eeyore]

Nobody fails to realise that. It has no relevance to the discussion. Craig asked why people would pay five hundred quid for a share with no voting rights or other benefits and you reply with "there was a protest!!""

My head hurts. Same old circular bullshit all night

It is the very crux of the issue though. We were in a situation were people were brainwashed into a situation were we paid whatever Club owners asked for. Whenever anyone questioned the status quo they were met with the age old garbage that there was nothing that anyone could do and that we had to accept that football had changed.

The reality is that as soon as we protested they caved in. The reality is that it is our Club and not theirs. The reality is that without us their investment is worth jackshit. So for me it is very simple the customer is always right as they say in Boston.

Give us a voice and an opportunity to influence the game we fund or risk killing the golden goose. 

[Lush is the best medicine...]

What you fail to realise is that what Graham and everyone else involved in the walkout did will result in you saving £500 on your season ticket over the coming years anyway Craig.

there are 120k season ticket holders then?

[Eeyore]

there are 120k season ticket holders then?

Get real there are far more than 120k people who have got into the game on season tickets since FSG have been here. How many Thomas Cook packages would £500 get you ? How many Corporate games does £500 get you? How many Paving Slabs does £500 get you ?

Kinell a family with two kids would spend that much on match tickets, replica kits and something to eat at the ground.

[harryc]

Apparently a left wing leaning forum, wouldn't believe it reading this thread.

[ToneLa]

"I don't know if there is a next step because ticket prices are an issue in England," Henry said. "That may foreclose further expansion. We'll have to see."

John Henry, a business man, says one form of income (ticket prices) is not able to be increased, that it needs looking into

So WAIT AND SEE if they have the money to develop the next step.

A month after the new main stand opens.

You all might hate me, but I feel ungrateful having a problem, and I'm prepared to wait and see, as that's logical... Get the money first and not accrue debt, and not raise prices.

Wait and see = meltdown.

Seen some melts on Facebook saying FSG are a disgrace, and some saying they wish they never bought the club. Honestly. I wonder what kind of owners fans want. FSG are not perfect. No way. But I'm not seeing the inflammatory nature of his comment, and I certainly won't judge negatively without context.

[oojason]

Apparently a left wing leaning forum, wouldn't believe it reading this thread.

Sadly, it hasn't been that for a good while.

Don't go in the Labour Party thread - some good Reds have left the RAWK over the shite posted in there - including the use of The Rag to attack views of some who support the current leader of the Labour Party.

[Sir Capon of Debaser]

Nobody fails to realise that. It has no relevance to the discussion. Craig asked why people would pay five hundred quid for a share with no voting rights or other benefits and you reply with "there was a protest!!""

My head hurts. Same old circular bullshit all night

Whos the fool here then mate?

Mahatma Gandhi ''After a while even Pigeons stop twatting themselves head first into patio doors''

[harryc]

John Henry, a business man, says one form of income (ticket prices) is not able to be increased

So WAIT AND SEE if they have the money to develop the next step

A month after the new main stand opens.

You all might hate me, but I feel ungrateful having a problem, and I'm prepared to wait and see, as that's logical... Get the money first and not accrue debt, and not raise prices.

Wait and see = meltdown.

Seen some melts on Facebook saying FSG are a disgrace, and some saying they wish they never bought the club. Honestly.

Forgive the people who can see through the carpet baggers.

How many people could ever put up a minimal investment and just watch it grow and grow with doing jack else.

Pretty close to hitting the lottery!

[Sheer Magnetism]

Regardless of voting rights, buying a share would be an investment in that its value would increase along with the club's. That would be what you'd get in return. Having said that, I doubt there would be the demand for 120,000 shares at £500 a pop, not unless investors/businessmen/speculators stepped in to invest, and I can't imagine that's what people want when they talk about the fans taking a piece of the club.

As far as voting rights go though, it just sounds unfeasible. Do the members have to be polled on everything? What happens when members inevitably disagree with each other on which direction to take, as happens on this forum all the time? It all seems like the best possible way of driving a large wedge into the support.

[Jake]

Whos the fool here then mate?

Mahatma Gandhi ''After a while even Pigeons stop twatting themselves head first into patio doors''

I hope to reincarnate as a pigeon.

That would be coo-l

[Graham Smith]

Some biased and frankly unknowledeable stuff being spouted here.

If you buy a share in a 10% sale you get something currently worth £500.

My reference to 'nothing' related to practical, legal influence you would have as a minority shareholder.

However the share purchase would be done via a supporters' trust, properly regulated, that already exists.

Within this vehicle would be a proper democratic decision making process and would be the place where thousands of supporters with a stake would lobby and campaign.

Allied to this, the Club properly recognising the trust and its own shareholders would inevitably see change. Look what a hastily organised walkout achieved.

Then as time goes on you endeavour to arrange a new share sale to supporters, and you grow the holding.

When you get to 25% then that is a tipping point over control. If the Club hasn't already seen the benefit in proper engagement at Board level with the trust the case then becomes compelling.

Try not to be frightened those of you that think distant owners are gods because they are rich, I have seen first hand how they just don't get us, football or the core LFC support.

And just because it's not been done at a big club doesn't mean it can't be done. Supporters have heard that so many times in the last eight years and have disproved it.

[MOZ]

As far as voting rights go though, it just sounds unfeasible. Do the members have to be polled on everything? What happens when members inevitably disagree with each other on which direction to take, as happens on this forum all the time? It all seems like the best possible way of driving a large wedge into the support.

I would have thought that the members would vote in a representive (or group of represntatives) at trust level, rather than voting on every individual decision.

[NaivetyinBlack]

Borrowing To Build

The ARE redevelopment will costs circa £60m (source: Ian Ayre to me Saturday 24th September 2016)

You know that he probably made that statement according to costs predicted as of that date, right ? What if there is a housing boom and cosntruction prices inflate in future ? What if other extraneous factors come into play, like making the space available, fluctuating architectural and labor costs and just plain luck ? Construction costs are NOT specific / rigid. You cannot put a number to it and expect it to remain the same while the structure is built.

If the redevelopment required borrowed funds at say 3% then the overall build cost if it was to be repaid over 10 years would be £81,000,000
If the redeveloped stand used interest free funds then the cost of repayment over 10 years would be £60,000,000

What if FSG hit a roadblack in their revenue generation and need a bit of extra from LFC ? They are perfectly capable of charging a different rate of interest. They've already bankrolled the club with interest free loans. What if they don't want to do it anymore and are well within their rights to refuse ?

The Main Stand naming rights are expected to generate £5m per year for a five year deal (which would probably be replicated or replaced for a second five years at say the same cost - although an increase for the second five years is a possibility).

Are you in contact with such sponsors ? I'm not doubting your data. I just want to know if you are using concrete enough sources to claim that a hypothetical deal which you might believe is true might finance a new stand while paying for the development of the current one. In 10 years, regardless of the financial situation the club encounters.

[NaivetyinBlack]

My reference to 'nothing' related to practical, legal influence you would have as a minority shareholder.

Erm, as opposed to the other kind of influence genuine shareholders have ? Oh so you would like to find 120,000 non executive shareholders with money to spare. Good luck.

However the share purchase would be done via a supporters' trust, properly regulated, that already exists.

Within this vehicle would be a proper democratic decision making process and would be the place where thousands of supporters with a stake would lobby and campaign.

Ah. Now we see what's going on here. You're trying to get the organization you represent, to increase its influence into a voting block with the club. Why didn't you just say so ?

Also, democratic process where you lobby and campaign ? Really ? Is that naivete or are you assuming people from outside Liverpool would lobby and influence decisions concerning genuine match going folk ? Hardly seems fair to me, considering the outrage I read in the 'Home atmosphere' thread and the feeling I get whenever I do visit Anfield. Shouldn't the locals increase their influence ?

Oh and our supporter base is a loyal but passionate group of a sometimes polarized fanbase. Put them in a lobbying / campaigning war and you will have chaos on your hands.

Allied to this, the Club properly recognising the trust and its own shareholders would inevitably see change. Look what a hastily organised walkout achieved.

Yep. The locals did that. Not a democatic supporter trust / lobby from people in Asia, America or Australia. Grateful that we are for their continued support.

Then as time goes on you endeavour to arrange a new share sale to supporters, and you grow the holding.

When you get to 25% then that is a tipping point over control. If the Club hasn't already seen the benefit in proper engagement at Board level with the trust the case then becomes compelling.

Heh. Yes, I can already see JWH running for the hills. It is a fantasy, unless the owner would welcome executive decisions from all over the world. So, in short, a fantasy.

[thisyearisouryear]

Erm, as opposed to the other kind of influence genuine shareholders have ? Oh so you would like to find 120,000 non executive shareholders with money to spare. Good luck.

Ah. Now we see what's going on here. You're trying to get the organization you represent, to increase its influence into a voting block with the club. Why didn't you just say so ?

Also, democratic process where you lobby and campaign ? Really ? Is that naivete or are you assuming people from outside Liverpool would lobby and influence decisions concerning genuine match going folk ? Hardly seems fair to me, considering the outrage I read in the 'Home atmosphere' thread and the feeling I get whenever I do visit Anfield. Shouldn't the locals increase their influence ?

Oh and our supporter base is a loyal but passionate group of a sometimes polarized fanbase. Put them in a lobbying / campaigning war and you will have chaos on your hands.

Yep. The locals did that. Not a democatic supporter trust / lobby from people in Asia, America or Australia. Grateful that we are for their continued support.

Heh. Yes, I can already see JWH running for the hills. It is a fantasy, unless the owner would welcome executive decisions from all over the world. So, in short, a fantasy.

Good points.

[NaivetyinBlack]

John Henry is a pragmatic business man, as hard as it is to understand for a lot of people here. He will not invest / loan a construction upwards of £60Mn from the goodness of his heart. His decison (well the board's) to implement the £77 ticket was farcical and showed a complete ignorance of the ground reality on the supporter end.

The protest brought them back to earth and I give ful credit to everyone who walked out. It needed to be done so that future endeavors like this cannot blindsight the fans. This statement he gave is partly in response to the sheer beatdown he got from something he thought he'd achieve within his rights. Yes it was ignorant, wrongly worded and untimely delivered, but that is a part and parcel of being an overseas owner.

This tug of war between the fans and owners, is good for the administration of the club. FSG will continue making mistakes and people like Graham will keep reminding them of where they should improve, as he must have realized after the backlash due to his comment. What we cannot do is dole out reactions which we as fans do not understand about running a business. This thread is full of know it alls who would jump at the chance of making executive decisions. Because unless we are absolutely on the same page in every matter, the democratic trust Garahm talks about will be an episode of Game of Thrones.

[Eeyore]

Erm, as opposed to the other kind of influence genuine shareholders have ? Oh so you would like to find 120,000 non executive shareholders with money to spare. Good luck.

Ah. Now we see what's going on here. You're trying to get the organization you represent, to increase its influence into a voting block with the club. Why didn't you just say so ?

Also, democratic process where you lobby and campaign ? Really ? Is that naivete or are you assuming people from outside Liverpool would lobby and influence decisions concerning genuine match going folk ? Hardly seems fair to me, considering the outrage I read in the 'Home atmosphere' thread and the feeling I get whenever I do visit Anfield. Shouldn't the locals increase their influence ?

Oh and our supporter base is a loyal but passionate group of a sometimes polarized fanbase. Put them in a lobbying / campaigning war and you will have chaos on your hands.

Yep. The locals did that. Not a democatic supporter trust / lobby from people in Asia, America or Australia. Grateful that we are for their continued support.

Heh. Yes, I can already see JWH running for the hills. It is a fantasy, unless the owner would welcome executive decisions from all over the world. So, in short, a fantasy.

What is the alternative to just keep quiet, have no influence and let FSG treat us like an atm ?

[Eeyore]

John Henry is a pragmatic business man, as hard as it is to understand for a lot of people here. He will not invest / loan a construction upwards of £60Mn from the goodness of his heart. His decison (well the board's) to implement the £77 ticket was farcical and showed a complete ignorance of the ground reality on the supporter end.

The protest brought them back to earth and I give ful credit to everyone who walked out. It needed to be done so that future endeavors like this cannot blindsight the fans. This statement he gave is partly in response to the sheer beatdown he got from something he thought he'd achieve within his rights. Yes it was ignorant, wrongly worded and untimely delivered, but that is a part and parcel of being an overseas owner.

This tug of war between the fans and owners, is good for the administration of the club. FSG will continue making mistakes and people like Graham will keep reminding them of where they should improve, as he must have realized after the backlash due to his comment. What we cannot do is dole out reactions which we as fans do not understand about running a business. This thread is full of know it alls who would jump at the chance of making executive decisions. Because unless we are absolutely on the same page in every matter, the democratic trust Garahm talks about will be an episode of Game of Thrones.

We are not dealing with Henry alone though are we. FSG was a mish mash of different consortium's who came together with the sole aim of buying the Red Sox. It is a partnership already and it has further partnerships with the likes of Rousch Racing and Delaware North. Not to mention giving Lebron James a share so what is wrong with FSG entering into a partnership with it's fans.

Let's face it they are on record as saying that they are open to a minority investment so why cant it be with the fans.

[Alan_X]

The source for all of this is an AP report based on questions asked at the New York Yankees vs Red Sox game a few days ago.

There is no 'statement' - the three short comments are clearly responses to questions asked by the reporter (Ronald Blum I assume from the credit at the end). Here is the full text of the actual quotes in the AP report:

Response to a question about further expansion: "I don't know if there is a next step because ticket prices are an issue in England," Henry said. "That may foreclose further expansion. We'll have to see."

To a question about Klopp: "He was a perfect fit for Liverpool, for the culture of the club, for the supporters, for the kind of team that we were trying to build," Henry said. "We couldn't have asked for a better fit."

To a question about the changes to the Champions League Market Pool: Henry said he was aware of other teams in England "obviously not happy with the UEFA deal."

"The changes weren't really discussed with us, they were implemented essentially. They unilaterally made changes to the market pool and there should have been I think more discussion. But I can tell you that the (Premier League) owners were not happy ... at least among the clubs that I speak with."

That's it - twenty-five non-committal words about further expansion and everyone's up on their hobby horses and grabbing their pitchforks.

If there's more to this than the original AP article, which has been quoted verbatim (including Rob Harris's spin on the protests) by most outlets then maybe it would be worth getting our knickers in a twist. Otherwise, as Henry says, why not wait and see?

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/c4812ca65e6644429cecadad10a6c364/liverpool-reassesses-further-anfield-expansion-after

Because the media have never spun anything to generate a story have they?

[thisyearisouryear]

The source for all of this is an AP report based on questions asked at the New York Yankees vs Red Sox game a few days ago.

There is no 'statement' - the three short comments are clearly responses to questions asked by the reporter (Ronald Blum I assume from the credit at the end). Here is the full text of the actual quotes in the AP report:

Response to a question about further expansion: "I don't know if there is a next step because ticket prices are an issue in England," Henry said. "That may foreclose further expansion. We'll have to see."

To a question about Klopp: "He was a perfect fit for Liverpool, for the culture of the club, for the supporters, for the kind of team that we were trying to build," Henry said. "We couldn't have asked for a better fit."

To a question about the changes to the Champions League Market Pool: Henry said he was aware of other teams in England "obviously not happy with the UEFA deal."

"The changes weren't really discussed with us, they were implemented essentially. They unilaterally made changes to the market pool and there should have been I think more discussion. But I can tell you that the (Premier League) owners were not happy ... at least among the clubs that I speak with."

That's it - twenty-five non-committal words about further expansion and everyone's up on their hobby horses and grabbing their pitchforks.

If there's more to this than the original AP article, which has been quoted verbatim (including Rob Harris's spin on the protests) by most outlets then maybe it would be worth getting our knickers in a twist. Otherwise, as Henry says, why not wait and see?

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/c4812ca65e6644429cecadad10a6c364/liverpool-reassesses-further-anfield-expansion-after

Because the media have never spun anything to generate a story have they?

You are probably right about people grabbing pitchforks over nothing. I think the continued lack of success in the league and the horrendous experience with H&G has just made a section of our supporters needlessly cynical.
Personally, I think FSG have been pretty good and stable owners. The only blemish was their cluelessness about the footballing decisions and their inability to translate 'intent' for success into results on the field. However, they seem to have achieved some degree of course correction with Klopp in that area too.

[Alan_X]

And my follow up is that there is no point focusing on financial arguments that we are never going to win because they hold all the cards on that one. I have to say that some of the arguments in here are bizarre - apparently FSG are only interested in money so they won't build the ARE because it will err... be guaranteed to make loads of money?... but the wrong kind of money?...

The arguments 'for' should be focused on the benefits of the ARE for success on the pitch rather than tickets, burgers and pints sold. Fight the fight on our ground not FSG's. Our best cards are the manager's belief that the crowd makes a difference and that the improved atmosphere can create 'Fortress Anfield'.

[Crimson_Tank]

Alan, not enough tin foil conspiracy theory stuff from you here, who kidnapped the real Alan_X and is using his account to spout reasoned and well thought-out posts?

In all seriousness though, Yes to the above two posts by Alan, the match is nearly on, watch it, with at Anfield, the pub or at home, and throw your support behind the club and the lads.