Author Topic: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?  (Read 25485 times)

Offline b_joseph

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #80 on: November 23, 2017, 03:58:50 am »
Isn't it all by design?

If you play as openly as we do, with multiple players encouraged to join in on attacks, then its natural that you will leave spaces. What annoyed me yesterday, more than the defending, was the fact that we barely had the ball.
Its so much easier to defend if you can keep the ball. But when nobody was willing to keep it and recycle it when the game started to look chaotic, you put too much pressure on a defense that is already a little exposed because so many get forward.
That is also by design though. Because its not like we have a team full of players who appear to be good at just cycling the ball around. We have a team of players who play fast and direct, which is exciting beyond belief but not always what you need when things are crumbling around you.

Not sure we give away as many leads as it seems. But we do have an annoying proclivity to give up multiple goal leads...what happened in seville was not some out of the blue, oh my goodness this NEVER EVER happens to Liverpool, thing.

Everyone is a little too quick to blame Henderson as usual. Bad game, yes but this idea that a single player can lead an entire group to safety is myth making.
People talk about Souness but look at the players he played with...you play with those players and they will bail you out just as frequently as you help them. Or Stevie but then he played in his fair share of collapses.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 04:02:28 am by b_joseph »

Offline SquirrelandGman

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #81 on: November 23, 2017, 06:13:52 am »
We need a top keeper.

We need a mascherano. Someone who can be an outlet when a team is going all gung ho on us.

LAST BUT NOT LEAST WE NEED TO LEARN TO PLAY DIRTY. If you get touched when things are going the wrong way..just fall down. Time wasting starts from the 1st minute of the second half.

Everything else will fall into place.

Offline Clayton Bigsby

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #82 on: November 23, 2017, 06:19:01 am »


LAST BUT NOT LEAST WE NEED TO LEARN TO PLAY DIRTY. If you get touched when things are going the wrong way..just fall down. Time wasting starts from the 1st minute of the second half.


Think this would go down like a lead balloon in our fanbase. Participating in the dark arts. I agree with you though.

Offline Upinsmoke

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #83 on: November 23, 2017, 06:24:42 am »
I think the lack of leadership is one of the biggest issues we have. If you changed captains it still wouldn't result in a change of mentality because everyone should be a leader out there. No one is.

Offline nico 8

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #84 on: November 23, 2017, 07:33:22 am »
Yep.  We're missing both of these things and if we'd just had a Banega in our midfield last night we would've been fine because he's so good and threading play through tight areas.  It was infuriating, watching long ball after long ball because we couldn't play out from the back under pressure.  Firmino is better in the air than you would expect, considering the type of player he is, but he's not the focal point you need if you're clearing your lines and need someone to hold on to it - he's more suited to getting the ball on the deck from midfielders, not battling against centre halves for high balls.

The defending isn't great, but our main problem is midfield.  Easiest way to protect the defence is to keep the ball, and we just can't do it.

Where was Banega in the first half though? Despite all their ball players we pressed them into submission. I do, however, get your point. First and foremost we need players across the park who are comfortable with the ball at their feet and can play in tight places - Llalana, Coutinho and Wijnaldum. Henderson and Can cannot. We need an upgrade on these 2 players. Keita is one.  Two or three players will not help as the 4th may be the weak link. That's the purpose of the rondos exercise. Your backline will need to be comfortable on the ball and that includes the keeper.  This would entail players of the highest technical ability. As an example- the Countinho pass to Moreno ought to have been controlled first time.If he had the technical ability required, he does not concede the penalty. This is not an attack on Moreno as he has been good this season.
The other explanation for the meltdown is the fact that we were relentless in our press in that first half. As much as we pressed them into submission, it came at a cost. We were dead on our feet starting with our front 3 thereby enabling them to play in and around us. Our midfield couldn't get close to them to put in a tackle or make an interception. It is both a systemic issue and an intelligence one on the part of the team. As a team there needs to be more of a balance as when to press, go low block or keep possession and get them chasing the ball. It comes back to decision making, intelligence and dare I say it - leadership.
Thirdly, the different styles and approaches to the game (technical v direct/long) makes it difficult for any one team to be geared up and capable to play against both. In that sense, you would need a squad to cater for both. So the approach and players to be selected shall differ when playing a Sevilla as opposed to Watford/ Bournemouth.

Offline nico 8

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #85 on: November 23, 2017, 07:35:30 am »
Isn't it all by design?

If you play as openly as we do, with multiple players encouraged to join in on attacks, then its natural that you will leave spaces. What annoyed me yesterday, more than the defending, was the fact that we barely had the ball.
Its so much easier to defend if you can keep the ball. But when nobody was willing to keep it and recycle it when the game started to look chaotic, you put too much pressure on a defense that is already a little exposed because so many get forward.
That is also by design though. Because its not like we have a team full of players who appear to be good at just cycling the ball around. We have a team of players who play fast and direct, which is exciting beyond belief but not always what you need when things are crumbling around you.

Not sure we give away as many leads as it seems. But we do have an annoying proclivity to give up multiple goal leads...what happened in seville was not some out of the blue, oh my goodness this NEVER EVER happens to Liverpool, thing.

Everyone is a little too quick to blame Henderson as usual. Bad game, yes but this idea that a single player can lead an entire group to safety is myth making.
People talk about Souness but look at the players he played with...you play with those players and they will bail you out just as frequently as you help them. Or Stevie but then he played in his fair share of collapses.

Totally agree with this and it is how I saw the game.

Offline Simplexity

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #86 on: November 23, 2017, 08:57:09 am »
I think we are far too nice of a team, not an ounce of cynicism in this side.

Offline Jookie

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #87 on: November 23, 2017, 09:23:27 am »

We need a mascherano. Someone who can be an outlet when a team is going all gung ho on us.

Are you saying Mascherano or the DM would be the outlet? I 've seen this a few times and I think it's too simplistic to say having someone in midfield as a controller would have solved everything versus Seville. It would help but a lot of teams also have an outlet upfront. A lot of teams play with a more physical CF than we do -  Lukaku, Kane, Morata -  and others go for technical ability and pace (us, City and Arsenal) and look to counter attack.

Last night part of the reason, we couldn't keep the ball was the midfield's fault. Not just Henderson but Henderson, Wijnaldum and Coutinho. It was also the front 3 fault because in the main they couldn't keep the ball. Normally that's not the case. We would normally punish teams on the break. That's what we are set up to do. Seville played on the edge with an intense press far up the pitch. As a consequence they played a pretty high line. Something we didn't take advantage of in the 2nd half. It's something we are literally set up to take advantage of but didn't execute it. A lot of that is down to the performance of the front 6. No matter how well they played 1st half, they have to take their share of the blame.
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Offline hide5seek

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #88 on: November 23, 2017, 09:23:33 am »
Not many of our backline (or goalies) would get into the top teams  in the premiership or Europe. Doesn't mean there shit, but are they what we need? I'd start there.

Offline Groundskeeper Willie

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #89 on: November 23, 2017, 09:27:00 am »
I keep seeing "lack of leadership" mentioned. What does that mean? What is leadership?
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Offline greeny01

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #90 on: November 23, 2017, 09:35:49 am »
Too many fair weather players...great when the going is good but struggle when under pressure. We need leaders and a few players with a bit of needle who will run through walls for you and do the dirty work.  Keita looks such a player for example but we need more than him, and it needs to be through the spine of the team as we have no steel through the middle of the team at present from the goalie through to midfield.  Klopp should have addressed some of this by now (Keita is a start) and he wanted Van Dijk who seems more of a leader in his play, but we need more of those types of players. We are not a million miles away but we have fundamental flaws that need addressing in the next 2 windows and Klopp has to see that surely.

Offline b_joseph

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #91 on: November 23, 2017, 09:51:36 am »
I keep seeing "lack of leadership" mentioned. What does that mean? What is leadership?
Its imperceptible...but people always find it when their team wins but can't see it when their team loses. Strangely.

Offline QR350

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #92 on: November 23, 2017, 09:59:02 am »

LAST BUT NOT LEAST WE NEED TO LEARN TO PLAY DIRTY. If you get touched when things are going the wrong way..just fall down. Time wasting starts from the 1st minute of the second half.
Nah not for me. Don't want any of our players rolling round the floor like fannies or acting like dirty shithouses. Leave that to the Ev and Utd

Offline Fiasco

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #93 on: November 23, 2017, 10:05:29 am »
I keep seeing "lack of leadership" mentioned. What does that mean? What is leadership?

Good question. For me, leadership in relation to our current team isn't about who takes responsibility with goals. Mane, Salah, Bobby, Coutinho and one or two others will always provide that (in fits and bursts sometimes, but still more than enough). Leadership in this team in my opinion is about this: When we are under pressure and need a cool head, who do we look to for inspiration and guidance to help get us over the line and see out a difficult period in the game?

As captain, Henderson is the natural scapegoat when we have a meltdown like against Sevilla. Captains do not have to rant and rave but they do need to have an underlying authority and an aura about them. We do not know what Henderson is like behind closed doors. We only see a couple of games a week. We see the tip of the iceberg if you will in terms of the actual games but so much more goes on in training and in other aspects of being a footballer. I don't doubt that Henderson is respected by the other members of our squad. I don't doubt that most of them probably think he's a worthy captain and I don't see any evidence of him being undermined. But to be perfectly honest given the personal make up of our squad I don't think anyone would have it in them to be nasty or cause grievance with Henderson's position as captain. We have a bunch of lads who seem like great fun and who are harmless and I don't see it in any of them to cause strife. They are all probably too nice, but that is for a different discussion.

So, you look to your captain for guidance and to lead. As I said, not to shout and be macho but to be assured. I've got this and by extension, we've got this. Henderson doesn't do that. He just doesn't. He panics. His first touch is off. He doesn't hold onto the ball. He does pass the buck and leave it to others. I don't know if it is fair to say that he 'hides', but he certainly doesn't act like a captain. If your captain doesn't seem to want the responsibility to help you navigate rough seas then who the hell will? The phrase 'captain' is exaggerated at times in sport but there is an importance to it. There are roles and responsibilities, you have a duty to guide your other 10 players when you need them. Does Henderson do this adequately?

It wouldn't be fair to single Henderson out. Our defenders never learn from any scenario they have previously faced. Call me old fashioned but I think your centre halves and goalkeeper need to be the ones propping up the defence, they are the heart of it and they need to act like it in terms of leadership also. Does Lovren lead? No, he never hides (sometimes to his detriment) but he doesn't lead, he's way too panicked and erratic. Mignolet is exactly the same. He doesn't have a calming presence. The opposite is often true. Klavan seems more passive and calm but his ability (or lack of) counter balances that. We miss Clyne in a way of him being a pure defender, and while Moreno has improved in spite of his Sevilla display he's not someone you would call calm and collected in choppy waters.

We have a number 6 and captain who doesn't play like one and who isn't very vocal and panics when the chips are down. We have defenders who try hard and don't hide but don't have a calming influence and aren't ever going to learn how to manage a game. We have forwards who play at 100mph and who want to run and gun and don't seem to know when to slow the pace down. We have a manager who wants his teams to play at fast pace with heavy metal football. We don't have any older heads in the team, Milner and Klavan are 30 odd but that is about it. We don't have a plethora of players in the team who are comfortable enough on the ball to be able to recycle it and take the sting out of the game when the game needs it. We also don't have too many winners. We have a squad of great players, but not too many winners and that is in a literal and figurative sense.

I've gone off on a tangent here and haven't really answered your question, I suppose I'm just jotting down reasons why I don't think we have the proper leadership we need. In terms of what is leadership? I think it is being able to do something on the pitch that the opposition would not want you do to. Take Sevilla the other night. They scored, they were on the up, the crowd was into it, we looked shocked. What did we do? We retreated and tried to hold fort, something we've hardly ever been able to do. We invited them onto us. We gave away silly fouls. We enabled them to get back into the game. We should have done the opposite: slow the game completely down. Win silly fouls. Have responsibility on the ball. Trust each other. All of the things Sevilla would have hated us doing.

There is no leadership because we don't have the right players to lead. We don't have enough experienced heads. We don't have enough players tried and tested in tough situations. Leadership is being able to navigate to the next checkpoint. Being able to see out tough periods. Leadership is bringing the rest of your teammates together in unison, leadership is taking responsibility and ensuring that you don't become your own worst enemy by the decisions you make. Leadership is an art, it is seeing danger in front of you but instead of being scared by it, you challenge it, face it and defeat it. In a nutshell, leadership is the complete antithesis of whatever it is we do when we find ourselves in a tough environment on a football pitch.

Offline clinical

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #94 on: November 23, 2017, 10:09:44 am »
Long gone are the days Rafa used to think game over at 2-0 and celebrate.
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Offline Johnnyboy1973

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #95 on: November 23, 2017, 10:13:10 am »
Long gone are the days Rafa used to think game over at 2-0 and celebrate.

I remember going 1 up at the bridge where we hadn't won in ages to an Alonso deflected goal (how does it feel Frank) in the opening 10 to 15 minutes, turning to my mate and saying, "Nice, we've won."
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Offline SquirrelandGman

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #96 on: November 23, 2017, 10:43:09 am »
Nah not for me. Don't want any of our players rolling round the floor like fannies or acting like dirty shithouses. Leave that to the Ev and Utd

Come on mate.

Gerrard was good at falling while pushing half way up the field to buy us sometime and give us a free kick and a breather.

Let's not forget about Suarez.

Alonso.

This hypocrisy of us being holier than other clubs in terms of play has to stop.

Do u want to be boyscouts or do u want to come in every month and rant how we are losing 2 nil leads yet again.

Firmino salah and mane are wonderful players. But if they can't master the dark arts.. Then we will have a problem.

We don't use Andy Carroll or benteke anymore.
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Offline SquirrelandGman

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #97 on: November 23, 2017, 10:48:11 am »
Are you saying Mascherano or the DM would be the outlet? I 've seen this a few times and I think it's too simplistic to say having someone in midfield as a controller would have solved everything versus Seville. It would help but a lot of teams also have an outlet upfront. A lot of teams play with a more physical CF than we do -  Lukaku, Kane, Morata -  and others go for technical ability and pace (us, City and Arsenal) and look to counter attack.

Last night part of the reason, we couldn't keep the ball was the midfield's fault. Not just Henderson but Henderson, Wijnaldum and Coutinho. It was also the front 3 fault because in the main they couldn't keep the ball. Normally that's not the case. We would normally punish teams on the break. That's what we are set up to do. Seville played on the edge with an intense press far up the pitch. As a consequence they played a pretty high line. Something we didn't take advantage of in the 2nd half. It's something we are literally set up to take advantage of but didn't execute it. A lot of that is down to the performance of the front 6. No matter how well they played 1st half, they have to take their share of the blame.

You want a player that is not afraid to hold on to a ball.. Wait for a challenge to come in and win a free kick.

Xabi and mash were so good at this.

Hendo Gini and coutinho can't fucking take a hit in fear of injury. Always trying to give a quick pass while under the kosh and giving the ball away.

No control whatsoever.

Offline KingKolo

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #98 on: November 23, 2017, 11:04:51 am »
Meltdowns and giving away leads, what are the causes?

Klopp.

He is the biggest cause. He has to be. We've started doing it loads more since he came in, and we didn't do it as often under previous managers. Simple logic.

Does that mean we should sack him?
Fuck no.
No way.
He's a top class manager and we will continue to make progress whilst he is in charge if we are patient with him.
But we will have to continue to put up with a lack of pragmatism, because it comes with the territory.

Offline Kelvinlfc

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #99 on: November 23, 2017, 11:06:11 am »
We're just serial bottle jobs in desperate need of an actual leader, nothing more nothing less. Even PSG & Dortmund have been bottle jobs in the not so distant future giving away "that" lead against Barca & Dortmund vs us last season when qualification was seemingly in the bag. It's just a difference in mentality and you saw in that PSG & Dortmund games and you saw it on Tuesday night with us. You see a set of players with the determination to fight back and you see a set of players who are over awed by the occasion and shitting themselves not to concede and we are unfortunately more often than not the latter.

Offline Kelvinlfc

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #100 on: November 23, 2017, 11:08:05 am »
Meltdowns and giving away leads, what are the causes?

Klopp.

He is the biggest cause. He has to be. We've started doing it loads more since he came in, and we didn't do it as often under previous managers. Simple logic.

Does that mean we should sack him?
Fuck no.
No way.
He's a top class manager and we will continue to make progress whilst he is in charge if we are patient with him.
But we will have to continue to put up with a lack of pragmatism, because it comes with the territory.

We just don't have a Plan B under Klopp, we just don't know how to shut up shop and we haven't known how since the Rafa Benitez days. We lack the footballing brain to play turgid, boring as fuck football which whilst from an entertainment for fans point of view is great, but you need that side to your game if you're going to ever win anything.

Offline Kashinoda

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #101 on: November 23, 2017, 11:10:11 am »
We just don't have a Plan B under Klopp, we just don't know how to shut up shop and we haven't known how since the Rafa Benitez days. We lack the footballing brain to play turgid, boring as fuck football which whilst from an entertainment for fans point of view is great, but you need that side to your game if you're going to ever win anything.

We literally shut up shop in all of our games against the top 7 teams in the country last year, except the Arsenal 4-3.

Some really notable defensive performances against Chelsea away, City at home etc.
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Offline tubby

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #102 on: November 23, 2017, 11:10:25 am »
You want a player that is not afraid to hold on to a ball.. Wait for a challenge to come in and win a free kick.

Xabi and mash were so good at this.

Hendo Gini and coutinho can't fucking take a hit in fear of injury. Always trying to give a quick pass while under the kosh and giving the ball away.

No control whatsoever.

Disagree on Gini, he's  very good at shielding the ball and getting his body in the way. Henderson just plays the way he's  facing when pressured but Gini keeps hold of it and is strong under pressure. Just not that creative with his passing.
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Offline WisconsinRed

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #103 on: November 23, 2017, 11:16:22 am »
The cause of our meltdowns is the players, too many are simply not good enough. We can't stop it with these players. I think that's been obvious for a long time.

We can solve it in time by getting in better players.


Offline Charlie Adams fried egg

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #104 on: November 23, 2017, 11:18:13 am »
Some interesting views here.
What I'd love to know is the extent to which the players are following Klopps instructions or not.
And if they are not following them, why not? Is it understanding (in which case it's Klopp's fault or players that aren't bright enough) or is it capability (e.g. Hendo being crap when under pressure) Or is it something else?

I think that individual errors which gradually shift momentum against us have a huge impact because they give teams and crowds hope
After the x2 subs on Tuesday, it is not like Seville had chance after chance - we actually had a couple of opportunities to make it 4.
The removal of Moreno, to an extent, stemmed the tide but arguably the damage was done because belief had been restored. But had Moreno not conceded the free kick and pen then their early 2nd half flurry would have blown itself out and we may be talking about a professional 0-3 or 1-3 at worst.

Overall, what I'm not prepared to see is a good guy in Klopp being eventually forced out because of the same players who have been at the scene of too many crimes to be a coincidence. Mignolet, Lovren, Moreno, Henderson. Now arguably Klopp is culpable if he carries on playing them, but he may argue that he's only playing them because the right level of replacements haven't been recruited.

Offline LallanaInPyjamas

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #105 on: November 23, 2017, 11:30:15 am »
Its so much easier to defend if you can keep the ball. But when nobody was willing to keep it and recycle it when the game started to look chaotic, you put too much pressure on a defense that is already a little exposed because so many get forward.
That is also by design though. Because its not like we have a team full of players who appear to be good at just cycling the ball around. We have a team of players who play fast and direct, which is exciting beyond belief but not always what you need when things are crumbling around you.


Everyone is a little too quick to blame Henderson as usual. Bad game, yes but this idea that a single player can lead an entire group to safety is myth making.
People talk about Souness but look at the players he played with...you play with those players and they will bail you out just as frequently as you help them. Or Stevie but then he played in his fair share of collapses.

Completely agree with the second paragraph. Henderson shouldn't be accountable for leading the side alone. It's a collective even if I do think putting a natural leader in the side would likely rub onto others in time.

However, for me, in the position he plays, Henderson is by far the biggest culprit of the first paragraph you refer to. Which is undoubtedly a major factor in our loss of leads. Sides who keep the ball well don't surrender leads very often. We only tend to keep the ball 'well' when our opponents want us to, i.e. defending deep and forcing us into playing laterally rather than vertically.

It's very simple really: the deepest-lying midfielder should be able to receive the ball under pressure and retain it. That is an absolutely essential skill in the role at this level and it is one Henderson sorely lacks.

Did you see Busquets' Maradona turn against Juventus last night? Phenomenal. It wasn't just that though. They pressed him all night long and yet he remained unfazed throughout, ending the game with a 96% pass completion rate. Unfortunately, unless we're lucky enough to have one come through the ranks, we'll be lucky to ever have a player of his quality in that role. But we should be doing more to find other solutions. Be it tweaking the system to provide Henderson more support to cover his weakness(es), or replacing him with a player better suited to that role. Otherwise we're going to end up in this same situation time and time again. It's very difficult to defend leads when your primary midfield shielder a) cannot keep the ball and b) isn't particularly protecting them in a defensive sense either. It's madness.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 11:32:19 am by LallanaInPyjamas »

Offline DanA

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #106 on: November 23, 2017, 12:02:21 pm »
I don't think it's a system thing, I think it's a personnel problem.

Nobody in midfield has a safety first attitude.
Our keeper is indecisive
Our fullbacks are inexperienced
We lack height as a team

I think it's hard for us to improve organically with such a poor balance in terms of defensive minded players.



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Offline Caligula?

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #107 on: November 23, 2017, 12:13:46 pm »
Lovren?.......at least you have accepted you are insane, the most skittish player in the squad?

To be fair Lovren is one of our more vocal players and never hides. The problem is he's just not good enough.

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #108 on: November 23, 2017, 12:16:51 pm »
Stick a new goalie, centre half, left back and defensive mid in that team and lets see if it can defend then.

It couldn't defend under Brendan and its' still the same players back there.

But, Hendo is on Jurgen and is the most interesting potential transfer of the lot.
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Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #109 on: November 23, 2017, 12:27:51 pm »
I think since the Spurs game we've seen a definite shift in our tactics and, second half against Sevilla aside, we've looked more balanced and protected the defence much better.

We've seen this team surrender leads in the past but this one felt a bit different to me, can't put my finger on why. Probably because this one was largely due to the midfield and forwards being abysmal second half rather than the defence being solely to blame.

Anyway, I think we need to give this set-up a run of games, especially away from home, before we throw the baby out with the bath water.
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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #110 on: November 23, 2017, 12:31:52 pm »
Its not so much giving away leads as it is shipping soft goals. If the score had been 3-3 with Sevilla scoring 3 absolute belters then nobody would have said anything other than well played Sevilla. Too often this season (and many before it), we've been guilty of leaking soft goals. Whether we are in front, or level or behind at the time doesn't matter. We don't make teams work exceedingly hard to score. It just feels worse this time because we did the hard work to be 3-0 up and then undid it with 3 otherwise quite soft, perhaps preventable goals.

In general, I think our main 6 players tasked with defending aren't good enough at all. Of the players we have, perhaps Clyne is dependable, and maybe Matip or Lovren on their day can be at the level needed, but are quite inconsistent (particularly Lovren). Pretty much everyone else isn't good enough to be playing at CL level against top teams. Mignolet, Karius, Klavan, Lovren, Gomez, Moreno, Henderson, Can are regular starters and none of them are good enough to play in any of the top sides on a regular basis. As a consequence, defensively we aren't a top side.

Contrast this with our attacking talent; Mane, Salah, Firmino and Coutinho are all top top players who would likely feature in most (if not all) of the top sides in the PL. Barcelona, one of the best teams in the world, whom our last best player went to (Suarez) were prepared to pay mega-money for Coutinho. Firmino, Salah and Mane are all heavily underrated and are brilliant, good enough to torment even the best defences on a fairly regular basis. Not surprisingly, we don't usually struggle to create chances or score anymore, against anyone.

If we bring in players in GK, defence and CM/DM that are the equivalents of the Mane's, Salah's, and Coutinho's of this world, then I'm pretty sure we'll start defending quite a lot better too.


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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #111 on: November 23, 2017, 01:57:08 pm »
I really don't know the root problem which sometimes (still too often) leads to us losing big leads in games apart from perhaps lack of a pure class DM in the team and maybe game management at times.
One thing i've noticed we rarely attack high balls aggressively enough in midfield positions and end up usually losing easily the first and second ball after the header in there.

Offline redk84

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #112 on: November 23, 2017, 03:08:35 pm »
I think we've all spun our heads around trying to figure out what exactly are the underlying problems here at some point in the last few years.

Liverpool can control 80% of a game but in the 20% we don't control it we can undo all our good work and sometimes that means even losing or drawing where we should win...

There's loads of little nuances to this I believe, and personnel replacement is one of the solutions which is required in certain key areas.

Central Midfield
Centre Back
Goalkeeper

When the tide turns we're soft and let teams run all over us sometimes. Our heads fall off and I wouldn't mind going into a 50/50 tackle with pretty much any of our squad...we lack leadership, aggressiveness and experience in our first 11.

Huge caveat though - All of what I said up there is not us all the time for this team. Most of the time we are fine.....

And there is not 1 team (maybe City apart at the moment) that does not have issues where their fans have been crying out to be addressed for years. Sometimes big teams lose big also. It happens

The day a team scores against us whilst we're 2-0 up and we aren't dreading what's coming next, instead we're confident we will be trying to extend our lead again.........is the day we will have the team Klopp wants. Which is hopefully sometime soon
« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 03:10:23 pm by redk84 »
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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #113 on: November 23, 2017, 03:23:24 pm »
My take...............

i don't think the solution for this issue is that complex.... its pretty easy if you think about it. If we are 3-0 up in the 1st half.....we then just need to do whatever it takes to slow down the game and make the opposition team lose momentum.

some examples........include keeper taking super long for goal kicks (within the range of legality), players going down when they are tackled hard...etc. Its no rocket science. This is what teams like chelsea and manure are good at.

If the players we have think they are above to doing the stuff i have mentioned.....then i suggest to change the frickin midfield which is the cause of all our problems. Hendo, Can, Milner, Wini........they don't do a good job of protecting the defence. They are not good in keeping possession in tight areas. So whenever we play against top teams (PSG, Barca, Man city) who are good at playing through midfield....we will be f**ked.


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Offline trav2591

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #114 on: November 23, 2017, 03:49:45 pm »
I think a lot of the issue does stem from not having a player in that 6 position capable of dictating the play. If Dortmund continue to implode i'd be going all out for Weigal. Would sort our midfield out for years..

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #115 on: November 23, 2017, 03:56:26 pm »
Cut out the individual errors & possibly all these 'meltdowns' dont happen.
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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #116 on: November 23, 2017, 03:59:34 pm »
To be fair Lovren is one of our more vocal players and never hides. The problem is he's just not good enough.

He's too eager is Dejan. When he simplifies his game he's more solid. He's like an attacker who dribbles past a defender only to cut back and try and beat him again. He wants to win the ball, take the player out, slide tackle, win a free kick and make a clearance all in the one fucking motion!

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #117 on: November 23, 2017, 06:53:38 pm »
Isn't it all by design?

If you play as openly as we do, with multiple players encouraged to join in on attacks, then its natural that you will leave spaces. What annoyed me yesterday, more than the defending, was the fact that we barely had the ball.
Its so much easier to defend if you can keep the ball. But when nobody was willing to keep it and recycle it when the game started to look chaotic, you put too much pressure on a defense that is already a little exposed because so many get forward.
That is also by design though. Because its not like we have a team full of players who appear to be good at just cycling the ball around. We have a team of players who play fast and direct, which is exciting beyond belief but not always what you need when things are crumbling around you.

Not sure we give away as many leads as it seems. But we do have an annoying proclivity to give up multiple goal leads...what happened in seville was not some out of the blue, oh my goodness this NEVER EVER happens to Liverpool, thing.

Everyone is a little too quick to blame Henderson as usual. Bad game, yes but this idea that a single player can lead an entire group to safety is myth making.
People talk about Souness but look at the players he played with...you play with those players and they will bail you out just as frequently as you help them. Or Stevie but then he played in his fair share of collapses.

Yes, it can't be about one player. Henderson is in the firing line because as the deepest lying midfielder, as well as the captain, he should be orchestrating the play. If we want to calm the game and move it around between the defence and midfield, as I went on about in my last post here, then a lot of that play should be passing through Henderson or someone in his position.
That does not mean that it is all down to him. I have a lot of respect for Henderson, and he is a far better player than he is given credit for. On this occasion he was one of several players who lost their heads a bit. It happens. The worry seems to be that there was no figure in the midfield or defence who could see what was happening and influence the game, no-one was trying to play the short balls, no-one was playing safe. Now, you don't expect Coutinho to be the man to do that, and Moreno's head was obviously elsewhere. Gomez is still inexperienced. But that still leaves two defenders and two midfielders, one of whom should have tried to change the tempo. It takes more than one to do it, but pretty much everyone was playing the Hail Mary passes up to the front line even when it wasn't working.

So no, we should not blame Henderson either as captain or as the deep mid, we play as a team and as a team they were all on the same page, it just wasn't the right page at the time. How do you fix that without an ould arse like Carra, who is going to vocally insist on playing simple, practical football? We don't have that kind of experience, and we don't seem to be learning it either.

I do think it looked better, for a while, when Can and Milner came on. Not that they were exactly fitting my idea of how we should be playing, but we were at least getting and maintaining a little bit of possession. Milner has the experience, but at left back there's not that much going through him, and Can was still a bit hungry to get forward, although we very nearly got a fourth goal as a result, but for some world class covering to intercept the final ball.
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Offline SteveZissou

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #118 on: November 23, 2017, 07:20:54 pm »
Correcting many posters on here:

The giving up of 2 goal leads at a higher rate started with Brendan Rodgers, not Klopp... it's continued a bit with Klopp too... but it was not common for most of my life as a Liverpool supporter before Rodgers.

Of course under Roy Hodgson we hardly got into 2 goal leads anyway.

Everyone already knows the reasons. Just look at the amount of money spent by Klopp at the back, particularly for central defenders.
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Offline Miltonred

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #119 on: November 23, 2017, 07:38:57 pm »
For me this is a fairly simple problem to understand but a harder one to fix.
We don't have a defensive shape that extends beyond where our goalkeeper and four defenders should be when we don't have the ball - what we have instead is hard to define, but looks and acts like "chase the ball down".

The reason I think its harder to fix is, that chasing the ball down is the right thing to do in order to force a turnover, upon which our best attacks are based - but knowing when to stop doing that and take a shape is hard to implement, because you need pretty much 11 players to make the call simultaneously. Conversely you need pretty much 11 players to come out of that shape and go back to pressing to create a turnover also at the same time.

Similarly shifting the mindset to ball retention and low risk passing mid game is tough to implement. If I am on the ball and move to ball retention and low risk passing mindset this is a problem if my team mates are in an attacking mindset, because they will take up attacking positions.  Not being on the same page can lead to a player being dispossessed or interceptions.

The way to get around this is to have much more intelligent and capable midfielders, who know when to trigger different styles of play, and can be easily read by their team mates. We have a gap there.