Topic: Injury news only thread. *

[Dr. Beaker]

Hope we meet them next season and Karius punches him while "attempting" to clear the ball from a set piece and K.O.'s him.

That'll be the round we go out - not because of the game but because of the state of their team bus by the time it reaches the ground. That will be a big problem for us - the revenge of the ruffled gobshite.

[Wabaloolah]

Tough call for the player, but the decision should be taken out of their hands. Blow to the head? Off you go for a HIA and you only return if you pass it. No limit to the number of reversable subs you can have for HIAs and if a player fails one and can't come back it doesn't count as one of your 3 allotted subs. Should all be enforced by an independent doctor(s).

[Anfield89]

The result, yeah. The fact concussion was missed during the game should definitely be spoken about though, it's an issue football really needs to be more proactive about.

Courtois comments are that of a gobshite though.

Hardly it’s absolutely strange they way this has come about. Concussion being missed yeh but that not a Liverpool injury update that’s the game as awhole.  Concussion when he makes mistakes for some people but not so when he’s doing everything else right.

[mikey_LFC]

Tend to agree with Courtois’s comments on the situation. People should also move on from it. Beaten by better side on the night.

Nobody is dwelling on the night, they are discussing the implications of missing a head injury on health and performance.

Courtois is comparing his experience when suffering concussion to karius, but concussions and they’re effects aren’t applicable from case to case. Even then he says he carried on for 20 minutes before coming off, there was only 35-40 mins left in the final when it happened I believe.

I’d rather use the observations of a medical professional who is an expert in the field and has seen hundreds of such instances, than a goalkeeper who is using his one experience and applying it.

I’ve yet to see an expert in the field contradict the evaluation only supporters, journalists and players spouting their opinions and conspiracy theories.

We’ve lost the final, nobody is denying that. If we can use this incident to improve the concussion protocol in football then at least some good can come from it.

[classycarra]

Well Ramos certainly isn't showing any remorse, instead laughing it off:
http://www.goal.com/en/news/damn-what-next-ramos-reacts-to-karius-concussion-claims/1cfta78ag0ruo1eo6k1bl3l145

Just shows what a c*nt of a man he really is even more.

Hope we meet them next season and Karius punches him while "attempting" to clear the ball from a set piece and K.O.'s him.

Be nice if Egypt get Spain. Salah to score and then later on Hegazi to split Ramos in two (by any method)

[CraigDS]

Hardly it’s absolutely strange they way this has come about. Concussion being missed yeh but that not a Liverpool injury update that’s the game as awhole.  Concussion when he makes mistakes for some people but not so when he’s doing everything else right.

Concussion doesn't mean he'll get everything wrong, just that his decision making and/or vision could be impaired. So he can make right and wrong decision, do things well and badly, during the concussion.

As for the way it's come about, if you take the first para in the press release on face value, and not sure why you'd question a highly regarded medical institution and its medical staff, then it makes complete sense.

[Anfield89]

Concussion doesn't mean he'll get everything wrong, just that his decision making and/or vision could be impaired. So he can make right and wrong decision, do things well and badly, during the concussion.

As for the way it's come about, if you take the first para in the press release on face value, and not sure why you'd question a highly regarded medical institution and its medical staff, then it makes complete sense.

No it doesn’t mean everything right or wrong. Vision obviously wasn’t impaired as he would have told staff.

[CraigDS]

No it doesn’t mean everything right or wrong.

Hence he can make saves and mistakes then.

Vision obviously wasn’t impaired as he would have told staff.

Vision as in judging the flight of the ball rather than not being able to actually see. If he was concussed then he may have had no idea his vision was impaired in such a way.

If you read some of the experts comments on this then they are saying that in a lot of cases (50%+) the person had no idea they are concussed.

[plura]

No it doesn’t mean everything right or wrong. Vision obviously wasn’t impaired as he would have told staff.

I'm not sure how you can say something like this for a certain? Neither of us knows this but Karius. We all know how badly someone wants to play and finish a CL final, that's for sure, right? We know that players have played through injuries many times before. Call that ill judgement or motivation.
We all know that the pressures of such a game could affect ones judgements too, right? Am I wrong?

With all that in mind and much more to consider I guess, I don't understand how you from afar can positively make that call?

[Anfield89]

I'm not sure how you can say something like this for a certain? Neither of us knows this but Karius. We all know how badly someone wants to play and finish a CL final, that's for sure, right? We know that players have played through injuries many times before. Call that ill judgement or motivation.
We all know that the pressures of such a game could affect ones judgements too, right? Am I wrong?

With all that in mind and much more to consider I guess, I don't understand how you from afar can positively make that call?

We know how badly someone wants and to finish the CL final.... This is not a knock you can run off an injury u can strap up and play through the pain your talking about vision if you can’t see you can’t play it’s that simple.

Pressure is more likely the reasons behind his mistakes yes not blurred vision that he just decided to keep to himself.

[plura]

We know how badly someone wants and to finish the CL final.... This is not a knock you can run off an injury u can strap up and play through the pain your talking about vision if you can’t see you can’t play it’s that simple.

There isn't only blindness and perfect vision with no impairments is it, and nothing there in between?

[CraigDS]

We know how badly someone wants and to finish the CL final.... This is not a knock you can run off an injury u can strap up and play through the pain your talking about vision if you can’t see you can’t play it’s that simple.

Pressure is more likely the reasons behind his mistakes yes not blurred vision that he just decided to keep to himself.

You're seeing this as purely black and white.

Have you even read any of the comments from specialists on the subject?

[El Lobo]

We know how badly someone wants and to finish the CL final.... This is not a knock you can run off an injury u can strap up and play through the pain your talking about vision if you can’t see you can’t play it’s that simple.

Pressure is more likely the reasons behind his mistakes yes not blurred vision that he just decided to keep to himself.

Honestly, why don't you just step out of the thread and write your excellent opinion on something else?

Medical professionals have told us he had a concussion, very much caused my Ramos elbowing him in the side of the head. So anything that happened between that point and the end of the game, may or may not have been affected by a concussion. There's probably a very, very small amount of people who would know either way. Then a larger group who could have an educated guess. And then a much, much larger group who literally have shit all idea. You're in that third group.

[Anfield89]

There isn't only blindness and perfect vision with no impairments is it, and nothing there in between?

Jesus , I didn’t say blindness. If his vision was blurred/impaired he should say something. I he choose not to then it’s still his fault and there’s nothing anyone can do if he made that choice.

[Anfield89]

Honestly, why don't you just step out of the thread and write your excellent opinion on something else?

Medical professionals have told us he had a concussion, very much caused my Ramos elbowing him in the side of the head. So anything that happened between that point and the end of the game, may or may not have been affected by a concussion. There's probably a very, very small amount of people who would know either way. Then a larger group who could have an educated guess. And then a much, much larger group who literally have shit all idea. You're in that third group.

If you say so lad.

[CraigDS]

Jesus , I didn’t say blindness. If his vision was blurred/impaired he should say something. I he choose not to then it’s still his fault and there’s nothing anyone can do if he made that choice.

For fucks sake, go and read some of the experts comments on this as you're sounding a little clueless and ignorant on the subject.

If he was concussed, and medical experts have confirmed he was, then he was in no fit state to decide for himself if he was or was not - over 50% of concussion cases the person has no idea they have it. He may have had zero idea his vision was impaired in any way, or that his judgement of what he was seeing was impaired, or that his decision making was impaired, you see where this is going?

[Dave D]

Pressure is more likely the reasons behind his mistakes yes not blurred vision that he just decided to keep to himself.

It's not about blurred vision. It's about the concussion he sustained.

In your expert opinion, it was 'pressure' and not the concussion that affected him after being deliberately elbowed in the side of the head.

Perhaps you should just leave it there instead of making yourself look more of an idiot than you already are.

[Dr. Beaker]

I had a brain trauma once that affected my vision - the main problem being balance, it took a couple of days before I could even stand up and a few months before I could walk properly - but the visual anomalies were weird and very unpredictable. The doctor came to see me in the hospital after a while and said they were sending me home because Liverpool were on the telly!

I parked meself in front of the telly but the telly was completely blurred - nothing else was, just the telly, eventually, totally pissed off and angry I decided to lie down on the sofa, but when my head got to about forty-five degrees, the telly went back into focus!?

I told the doctors about this and it made sense to them?

[Anfield89]

The twins are here.

 
If read what specialists have said since and it’s all ifs and maybes like I said “if” he felt the effects and chose not to state it it’s a problem. If it’s was unknown to him and not examined at half time there’s nothing that could be done either.

It’s good our “friends” in Boston could clear it up though for any future issues.

[CraigDS]

If it’s was unknown to him and not examined at half time there’s nothing that could be done either.

Ah, one of those time travel type medical exams which examines the patient before the incident occurs.

[Anfield89]

Ah, one of those time travel type medical exams which examines the patient before the incident occurs.

Whatever minute it happened, game should be stopped for it.

[Peabee]

Jesus Christ.

[Djozer]

The twins are here.

 
If read what specialists have said since and it’s all ifs and maybes like I said “if” he felt the effects and chose not to state it it’s a problem. If it’s was unknown to him and not examined at half time there’s nothing that could be done either.

It’s good our “friends” in Boston could clear it up though for any future issues.

It happened after half time, mate.

As you say though, it's all ifs and maybes, but why not give Karius the benefit of the doubt in that case? Concussion can affect people in many different ways. It's entirely possible that he didn't realise his vision, balance, or spatial awareness was impaired even though it was. Alternatively, it's entirely possible this is all a big conspiracy, though I'm not sure why you've  drawn that conclusion. Yeah, Karius has not been mistake free (has any keeper, ever) but in his entire career here he's not come close to making an error like he did for the first goal. It could have been "pressure" I guess, but why leap to that conclusion? If trained medical professionals are willing to put their reputations on the line and release a statement that they believe he suffered concussion, is that not the most likely explanation for his fuckups here, or at the very least a significant contributing factor?

[Dr. Beaker]

You would think the 'pressure' would have been a problem in the early part of the first half before he'd got bedded in. By the time the assault happened he had had a very good game in my opinion, and then two minutes later, an unprecedented and very weird misjudgement. Draw your own conclusions.

[No666]

It's the same with some dementia sufferers. They can see an object right in front of them one minute and then it disappears. You move it slightly and it reappears. OH does voluntary work with Young Onset Dementia sufferers. Was one of the most surprising elements that brought it home to me how the brain is a complex, delicate structure.

[rob1966]

For fucks sake, go and read some of the experts comments on this as you're sounding a little clueless and ignorant on the subject.

If he was concussed, and medical experts have confirmed he was, then he was in no fit state to decide for himself if he was or was not - over 50% of concussion cases the person has no idea they have it. He may have had zero idea his vision was impaired in any way, or that his judgement of what he was seeing was impaired, or that his decision making was impaired, you see where this is going?

You're spot on. When I had my bike crash, I just carried on as normal. Rode back from skem to southport, locked my bike away at work, got a lift to a and e as my hip hurt, argued with a doctor to have a scan as my helmet was damaged, then walked to my then girlfriends house to get a lift home. Couple of days later got interviewed by the Police, they asked me why I rode past Ormskirk hospital to go to southport, ride past the hospital and my house to drop the bike at work on my afternoon off, then leave it there? I had no proper explanation except I had forgotten ormskirk had a hospital even though I had been there loads of times and I don't know why I went to work or left the bike there. All the while I had felt fine, just banged up from the crash, but I did struggle to ride the bike properly.

[Nessy76]

Hardly it’s absolutely strange they way this has come about. Concussion being missed yeh but that not a Liverpool injury update that’s the game as awhole.  Concussion when he makes mistakes for some people but not so when he’s doing everything else right.

So nobody is saying that he had concussion when he did not have a concussion?

Craig's spot on, this is weird.

[Nessy76]

Whatever minute it happened, game should be stopped for it.

Which does not support your distrust of the diagnosis in any way at all.

[PhaseOfPlay]

We know how badly someone wants and to finish the CL final.... This is not a knock you can run off an injury u can strap up and play through the pain your talking about vision if you can’t see you can’t play it’s that simple.

Pressure is more likely the reasons behind his mistakes yes not blurred vision that he just decided to keep to himself.

It's not about "vision" - it's about Cognition. Different thing entirely.

[CraigDS]

https://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/first-team/304107-philipp-jacobsen-joins-liverpool-fc-staff

Philipp Jacobsen joins Reds' backroom team

 Liverpool FC can confirm the appointment of Philipp Jacobsen as the club's new medical rehabilitation and performance manager.

The German joins the Reds from the Qatar-based orthopaedic and sports medicine hospital, Aspetar.

Jacobsen worked as Aspetar's senior physio from 2007 to 2015 before moving on to work with the Qatar national team until 2017. He then took on a lead role and headed up a specialist team assigned to the care of elite foreign athletes visiting Aspetar – mostly from football and athletics.

He has previously worked in football with Greek giants Panathinaikos, serving as the club's head physio between 2001 and 2004, and joined Portsmouth in 2005.

Jacobsen will now head up Liverpool's Melwood-based medical team alongside Dr Andrew Massey.

[BabuYagu]

The twins are here.

 
If read what specialists have said since and it’s all ifs and maybes like I said “if” he felt the effects and chose not to state it it’s a problem. If it’s was unknown to him and not examined at half time there’s nothing that could be done either.

It’s good our “friends” in Boston could clear it up though for any future issues.

There is two reasons for this - the first is the Dunning-Kruger effect



This perfectly explains how someone like you can be so absolutely sure of yourself in this thread while the most informed and educated people on the subject still talk with some doubts.

The second thing is that how people of science and people of ignorance talk are entirely different. People of ignorance tend to see the world as very black & white. The state opinions as facts. The ignore information which questions their viewpoint. People of science are the exact opposite. They rarely state anything in absolutes as they deal in probables. If someone online says "Karius buckled under pressure" that statement is based on what? What tests have been conducted? What medical research supports this? What knowledge, training, experience makes this opinion valuable?

Whereas when the expert in a field says "it is probably this" it simply means "this subject is so complex with so many variables that nobody can state with absolute certainty what happened. However, given all the evidence available, my 7 years studying medicine, my 20 years studying head trauma and the thousands of similar cases I have seen, the most probable answer is this".

Never confuse the doubt in the words of an expert as meaning they don't know - it just means they aren't ignorant enough to rule out every other possibility as you have throughout this thread.

[Wigwamdelbert]

It's not about "vision" - it's about Cognition. Different thing entirely.

I agree, but vision is cognition. we don't actually "see" anything - our brain interprets electrical signals from the optic nerves and comes up with a "cognition" of what is around us - it is the brain's job to put together the signals into meaningful data, say for example, how far away the cup is on the desk in front of you, based on the stereo information received from the eyes. If the brain misinterprets even slightly, one of the signals, spatial awareness is impacted and you end up reaching for the cup and grasping thin air. BUT in that case, which is common enough, everything "looks" normal, "the cup is right there, why can't I grasp it?".

So it is entirely plausible for Karius to have a concussion which left his spatial awareness - flight of the ball, distance the attacker is away - severely compromised without him knowing.

[Dougle]

It happened after half time, mate.

As you say though, it's all ifs and maybes, but why not give Karius the benefit of the doubt in that case? Concussion can affect people in many different ways. It's entirely possible that he didn't realise his vision, balance, or spatial awareness was impaired even though it was. Alternatively, it's entirely possible this is all a big conspiracy, though I'm not sure why you've  drawn that conclusion. Yeah, Karius has not been mistake free (has any keeper, ever) but in his entire career here he's not come close to making an error like he did for the first goal. It could have been "pressure" I guess, but why leap to that conclusion? If trained medical professionals are willing to put their reputations on the line and release a statement that they believe he suffered concussion, is that not the most likely explanation for his fuckups here, or at the very least a significant contributing factor?

Thanks for the post mate. I suspect this is the case.

Ramos and "the art of doing just enough damage", a master craftsman at work. He beat us single-handed.

[sms1986]

https://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/first-team/304107-philipp-jacobsen-joins-liverpool-fc-staff

Philipp Jacobsen joins Reds' backroom team

 Liverpool FC can confirm the appointment of Philipp Jacobsen as the club's new medical rehabilitation and performance manager.

The German joins the Reds from the Qatar-based orthopaedic and sports medicine hospital, Aspetar.

Jacobsen worked as Aspetar's senior physio from 2007 to 2015 before moving on to work with the Qatar national team until 2017. He then took on a lead role and headed up a specialist team assigned to the care of elite foreign athletes visiting Aspetar – mostly from football and athletics.

He has previously worked in football with Greek giants Panathinaikos, serving as the club's head physio between 2001 and 2004, and joined Portsmouth in 2005.

Jacobsen will now head up Liverpool's Melwood-based medical team alongside Dr Andrew Massey.

Seems like a good addition.

[PhaseOfPlay]

I agree, but vision is cognition. we don't actually "see" anything - our brain interprets electrical signals from the optic nerves and comes up with a "cognition" of what is around us - it is the brain's job to put together the signals into meaningful data, say for example, how far away the cup is on the desk in front of you, based on the stereo information received from the eyes. If the brain misinterprets even slightly, one of the signals, spatial awareness is impacted and you end up reaching for the cup and grasping thin air. BUT in that case, which is common enough, everything "looks" normal, "the cup is right there, why can't I grasp it?".

So it is entirely plausible for Karius to have a concussion which left his spatial awareness - flight of the ball, distance the attacker is away - severely compromised without him knowing.

You are of course correct, but I was making the distinction to show more that it wasn't merely a case of "his vision was blurry" or "he was seeing stars", but more "it didn't matter what he was seeing, his brain wasn't interpreting it in the normal fashion".

It seems arguing the first means Karius is responsible because if he had blurred vision, he should have come off - but of course, that probably wasn't the case. It was more likely that his "sight" was fine, but his interpretation of what he was seeing was impaired.

[BabuYagu]

The strangest thing is that Karius probably has absolutely no recollection of the game after half time now. His brain will now fill in those blanks from watching the moments back on replay which means his knowledge of the situation at this point may be no better than what we all seen on TV. Which makes answer the "what happened question" even harder as he himself cannot even tell the doctors what happened in that moment. Which would further add to the reasons why the answers are not definitive.

[Mighty_Red]

In many ways I'm not sure that releasing his medical information was the best thing to do, especially since the publication doesn't seem to have been sanctioned by the club (they told him to go for the scan yet they haven't followed it up with their own statement). I think this would've been better coming direct from the club and the medical staff rather than the the doctors.

All it has done is attract more media scrutiny (It was on BBC News at 10 FFS) and endless questions which cannot easily be answered. Obviously there are accusations of this being a convenient "excuse" since we can never know for sure whether it was the reason he made the mistakes or not (considering he didn't know himself that he was affected).

Karius needs to just stay out of the limelight, recover from the injury then get his head right (literally) for pre-season.

[CraigDS]

All it has done is attract more media scrutiny (It was on BBC News at 10 FFS) and endless questions which cannot easily be answered. Obviously there are accusations of this being a convenient "excuse" since we can never know for sure whether it was the reason he made the mistakes or not (considering he didn't know himself that he was affected).

It's also highlighted the need for better awareness of concussion related injuries in football, so it's not all bad.

[sms1986]

Karius needs to just stay out of the limelight, recover from the injury then get his head right (literally) for pre-season.

He seems to be avoiding social media for now, which helps a lot.

[tea_tree]

Unfortunately some of our fans are showing themselves up to be absolute idiots of the highest order. People really think this is some FSG conspiracy? I know there are some conspiracy nuts in here but this takes the biscuit. It is very obvious that if he was concussed, Karius was not the person best placed to judge this. How hard is that to comprehend? He received a blow to the head which likely caused a concussion and unfortunately the red and his assistants didn’t stop the game. Football has a way to go with dealing with these sort of injuries. The fact that some people are so far up their own backsides with their anti-FSG agenda that they believe that the clubs owners paid some doctors to “doctor” this test I’d absolutely bonkers. The takeaway message is that football needs to do better at taking care of players where head injuries are concerned. If your Evertonian or Mancunian mate thinks you’re making excuses and you’re convinced by that, you can both do one.