Topic: Politically Correct Debate. What is acceptable today ?

[AdamS]

How can anyone know how their actions will be perceived by another?

Whilst there are clearly some behaviour that should be avoided you cannot possible cover every single potential source of offense. It seems to me that some rule makers think that you can though & that's what creates the much publicised frustration with political correctness.

[jward85]

only going to post something quick on here for now but my pet gripe is the seeming hypocrisy of humour. nobody with half a brain cell would consider racist jokes to be funny but many (for example) think that homophobic jokes are amusing. obviously as a gay woman i find many so called gay jokes offensive.

I laugh at racist jokes, I laugh at homophobic jokes, in fact I laugh at any joke if it is funny. If it isn't funny I don't laugh at it. Simple as that. Is someone who laughs at a joke about Jews or Blacks a racist Nazi sympathizer or are they just a normal person who happens to find a joke funny?

another related point is the use of derogatory terms by minority groups. i feel it is perfectly acceptable to use the term queer/poof/dyke in a joking manner when referring to myself or my gay mates. yet if a straight person used the term i would find it offensive.

You mentioned the hypocrisy of humour before, but to me, this what you have said is hypocritical. Why is it OK for you as a lesbian to use the word "dyke" for example but if it were me as a straight man using it you would be offended?

[The Bill Hicks Appreciation Society]

to be fair to saph if you read her entire post she questions why she feels it's okay for her to use those terms and is offended if someone else uses it. she went on to say about black people doing the same why minority groups feels it is perfectly acceptable to use terms percieved as derogatory within their own social circle. i think.

[hooded claw]

I laugh at racist jokes, I laugh at homophobic jokes, in fact I laugh at any joke if it is funny. If it isn't funny I don't laugh at it. Simple as that.

But isn't that the point? That the subject matter you mention precludes some from finding it 'funny' at all.

[jward85]

But isn't that the point? That the subject matter you mention precludes some from finding it 'funny' at all.

Fair point, but for me anything and everything is fair game for a joke, if its funny its funny. Not that I agree with the sentiment of say a racist joke or a homophobic joke but some things are funny and just because it cuts close to the bone doesnt mean its not funny in its own right.

[grifter]

But isn't that the point? That the subject matter you mention precludes some from finding it 'funny' at all.

When it suits,yes. Some very selective replies here. 

I,ve seen numerous jokes on here regarding Gary cuntin Glitter and no one gives a flying fuck.Most of the Glitter jokes get met with a  .to be honest I can,t think of a more disturbing subject to make a joke about,but I must admit I found them funny,same as a funny joke about a straight man shagging his missus,a gay man bumming his boyfriend or a fat bastard in the doctors...But  often a joke about a gay man or lesbian is met mostly with the same responses,"homophobic" "bigot" "fuck off prick"
                       
Point I,m failing miserably to make is to stop being so fuckin sensitive.We have all heard fuckin "out of order jokes" and they get rightly fucked off but if its ok to joke about a thick Irishman,a fat c*nt,a blind man,a thieving scouser but not a gay person then shove it up your arse(pardon the pun) Probably offended posters on here are probably guilty in the past of posting in the Joke thread about a man with a stutter,a woman with two minges,fat bastards etc.

Just be consistent.

Still can,t understand why its ok for lesbians to call each other puffs or dykes but wo betide anyone straight who does.

Not being contraversial on purpose or to get anyones back up,just an opinion thats all.

BTW ,I know my spelling is shite,couldn,t fook and don,t take the piss you bigoted spellist twats.

 

[Hinesy]

Still can,t understand why its ok for lesbians to call each other puffs or dykes but wo betide anyone straight who does.

 

You mentioned the hypocrisy of humour before, but to me, this what you have said is hypocritical. Why is it OK for you as a lesbian to use the word "dyke" for example but if it were me as a straight man using it you would be offended?

have a look at my earlier post :

well it would seem that many of us accept that the use of say the word 'nigger' by the black community is seen as either a way of reclaiming the word back from the racists, or certainly as a less offensive term than say I, as a white, would cause if I used it.
Its that old point that I can criticize my mum and dad but woe betide anyone else who does.
We as Reds do it, almost celebrating the robbing scall romping across Europe doing most places on the way, yet any other club mention it, we are up in arms.
I don't think this is only and purely hypocrisy, as there is some justification for minorities trying to redress the balance in comedy certainly, by telling jokes about themselves : whether it be Henry about blacks or Jo Brand about women, or Julian Clary about gays...

So i think its perfectly fair for Saph to use gay terms and not be offended by them, within her community, and yet still be offended by other straight comedians using them.

Otherwise Bernard Manning telling a black joke and Lenny Henry telling the same joke - there'd be no difference. And of course, there is. Manning is a racist. Henry is trying to claim back his heritage.

[saph]

You mentioned the hypocrisy of humour before, but to me, this what you have said is hypocritical. Why is it OK for you as a lesbian to use the word "dyke" for example but if it were me as a straight man using it you would be offended?

because when i use it i am reclaiming a derogatory term and re-empowering myself. if you were to use the term dyke it would be offensive as it was meant in a negative manner. if you don't believe me ask the three young lads who hurled abuse at my (ex) girlfriend and i whilst we were walking back from the gym only a week and a bit ago.

fucking little clueless c*nts!

and people moan about pc gone mad.

[grifter]

have a look at my earlier post :

So i think its perfectly fair for Saph to use gay terms and not be offended by them, within her community, and yet still be offended by other straight comedians using them.

Otherwise Bernard Manning telling a black joke and Lenny Henry telling the same joke - there'd be no difference. And of course, there is. Manning is a racist. Henry is trying to claim back his heritage.

 
Fuckin lost me. Pardon me but isn,t a racist joke a racist joke whoever tells it. Do people hear it differently if a Asian or African tells it.Are you saying its ok for Lenny Henry but not Benny Hill.

Fuckin sick also regarding gay people being offended by gay jokes.I can understand it if its particularly distasteful,fair enough.But all this bollocks about "I,ve no human rights being gay" etc does my nut in.
Don,t they have a sense of humour.FFS. I,ve read hundereds of jokes on here about "blokes comes home from work and catches the milkman shagging his wife" or "this pissed bloke was shaggin a prozzie"
My reaction is to laugh if its funny, not say..Do you fuckin mind,I,m a straight person and often place my cock in minges,I find your joke sexist,anti straight you bigotted twat.Its people like you who I,ve had to put up with all my fuckin life and contribute to straight people being filled in by gays,Its not a choice.

Do I fuck,

Roll a big fat one and chill while watching a DVD of Dumb and Dumber and everyone will be happy.

No offence meant again to anyone,these are solely the thoughts of me and they will not affect your statutory rights.

The above post was brought to you by the letter P and the number 8.

Come and play, everythings AY-OK, la,de,de,de,de, can you tell me how to get,how to get to The Pen and Wig.

 

[grifter]

H and 8
sez it all

Not intentional that,well spotted though.

Changed to a P now. 

[Hinesy]

i'll remove mine mate.

[The Bill Hicks Appreciation Society]

because when i use it i am reclaiming a derogatory term and re-empowering myself. if you were to use the term dyke it would be offensive as it was meant in a negative manner. if you don't believe me ask the three young lads who hurled abuse at my (ex) girlfriend and i whilst we were walking back from the gym only a week and a bit ago.

fucking little clueless c*nts!

and people moan about pc gone mad.

why do you automatically assume if it were used by a straight person it would be meant offensively, as you say about the three lads that hurled abuse at your friend that sounds like it was obviously meant to offend and they're in the wrong but again it purely comes down to conotation.

by telling me which words i can and cant use your advocating a type of fascism, not calling you a fascist by any means i'm just saying by telling people what they can and cant say you are making a fascist statement.

[saph]

fair point. guess i should've said by strangers. my mates rightly give me jip for being a crap lesbian at times, as do my family but i know it is good natured.

ta for flagging that up.

[kesey]

Think the whole world is going bonkers meself................                     

[Col]

It's a strange one, and relates a lot to the type of audience.

I have black and asian friends, and I'll make  the odd joke to them but I'm not racist and wouldn't say anything similar to people I didn't know, or people whose reactions I couldn't pre-judge.

The same goes for my gay friends.

In fact, the same goes for anyone who may ever be the butt of one of my jokes, so it could all be a load of bollocks on the whole...

[kesey]

In fact, the same goes for anyone who may ever be the butt of one of my jokes, so it could all be a load of bollocks on the whole...

Oooops...       

[The Bill Hicks Appreciation Society]

fair point. guess i should've said by strangers. my mates rightly give me jip for being a crap lesbian at times, as do my family but i know it is good natured.

ta for flagging that up.

just wondering in what makes you crap lesbian? you go out shaggin' fellas or what?

[Bullan]

There are some very good points on here in what is a very fascinating discussion.

I must admit that I often swing from being Pro PC to Anti PC as each "case" has its own merits.

The one thing that does irritate me though is the manner in which all discussion is always circumvented and rational behaviour is replaced with reactionary knee jerkism (i know its not really spelt that way but im an igloo conceived Icelander with poor grammar skills) from both sides.

People are not allowed to discuss things before the axe falls if that makes sense.

Say for instance these "horror" stories about the banning of Christmas from city centers.

From what I can gather in at least one of these cases the city council voted for removal of Christmas reminders from their city center (will find the link in a minute), for fear of causing offence to non christians.

I honestly can't remember if it was due to a complaint or if it was pre emptive on their part.
This has naturally resulted in the usual "PC Gone Mad" responses which only adds fuel to the already heated debate about the merits of PC.

Now I am not christian , I don't believe in any god, but I personally don't see a problem with the word christmas.

It would be so easy for me to conclude that the whole world has gone mad and that those complaining should get a life and stop being so sensitive about things.

I don't though, I don't pretend to understand why someone gets offended by it and thats where I would finally get to my point.

See I'm not given a chance to understand why anyone finds it offensive.

I just hear snippets of regurgitated Daily Mail bile on one hand , and the civil liberties groups and their cries on the other.

It quite often seems to me that the very people who are supposed to be offended don't have a voice.

Almost as if they are being used as an excuse to go on Newsnight to score a few points or a moral victory in a battle between uniformity and bigotry.

As far as I can tell , english schools have a celebration thing when Diwali is , and they also have something for christmas , and it appears that at least in some schools live and let live is very much the policy of choice.

If something was dear to me , say a religious holiday , I too would feel aggreived if it was simply banned without a discussion or dialogue.
There is no explaination sometimes, and that I think gets peoples backs up more than anything else.

It comes across as authoritive and favouring one point of view over another.

My ex girlfriend is Indian , she doesnt give a hoot about christmas , its not her holiday , but she certainly wouldnt want it banned on her behalf , and she's not alone in saying that.

 
 

[Millsee]

Say for instance these "horror" stories about the banning of Christmas from city centers.

From what I can gather in at least one of these cases the city council voted for removal of Christmas reminders from their city center (will find the link in a minute), for fear of causing offence to non christians.

I honestly can't remember if it was due to a complaint or if it was pre emptive on their part.
This has naturally resulted in the usual "PC Gone Mad" responses which only adds fuel to the already heated debate about the merits of PC.

Which Town Centre? Everywhere I've been to has extensive Christmas lights, shops are festooned with Christmas decorations and traditional music is playing.

Is there a single place in the country where this isn't the case?

If so, then this is another example of false reporting or rumour.

[Bandy]

Am on holiday and in the Carib and it's quite funny

They are not allowed to say 'disabled' - they now have to say 'physically challenged' - and most on the ship that have wheelchairs and can walk are actualyl from the U.S. where they are too fat too.

I think they are supposed to be 'physically challenged' too - instead of the traditional 'fat, lazy bastards'

Also got the debate in New York with the deranged set going on about 'banning the word Christmas'

tossers the lot of 'em

[Bullan]

Which Town Centre?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=368752&in_page_id=1770

according to this snippet I found (Please note , that the original article I saw was in the Gravesend Reporter not the Daily Mail)

[Eli_B (aka Badland Red)]

A very good post if you don't mind me saying so Bullan and a few of the others as well. This is a good debate. By the way who instigated or coined term in the first place? any web links would be nice. Here's my take on this issue.

This phrase in the English vocabulary called which i'm beginning to hate i.e. "Politically Correct". The only reason that i say this is because even though this principle seems an ideal solution;in terms of tolerance and understanding and apprecaiting the nuances of different ethic races, dare i say social background &gender identity (with reference to gays, lesbians and Trannies). Also i don't like the way that certain sections in the media domain i.e. Newspapers (Daily"Hate" Mail, Express, The ***) etc, maniuplate and twist their paranoid view on the public. Or in other words half-baked and docile journalisim.

But my great fear is that it only perpatuates and exacerbates the spectre of bigotry, ignorance and intolerance. We as humans and individuals are supposed to be living in the 21st century and sadly some of the hate is beginning to come back with a vengeance. Let's just say that i'm a live and let live type of guy.

[Millsee]

mail

according to this snippet I found (Please note , that the original article I saw was in the Gravesend Reporter not the Daily Mail)

Hmm. Really?

Statement from David Gillett, Leader of Havant Borough Council

“Contrary to media reports Christmas is very much being celebrated in Havant this year. There will be Christmas trees in Havant town centre, Christmas lights will be switched on in the precinct, a Christmas Carol concert will be held in the Meridian Centre and the usual Christingle service will take place at St Faiths Church. Havant is not the town that banned Christmas.

I did not have all the facts to hand when approached by the media, and now much has been made over a misunderstanding about the title of this event. The event is called Festival of Light simply because the main feature is an illuminated parade of schools and community groups wearing costumes on the theme of light, and the event concludes with a free firework display over Havant Park on Friday 2 December.

The name was not chosen to avoid offending people of different cultures and faiths, as has been incorrectly reported in the press, nor was it chosen to be politically correct. Christmas was not dropped from the title of the event.   

The Council has worked closely with Havant Business Group, local religious leaders and schools to put this festival together to promote Havant town centre and I am fully supportive and appreciative of all the hard work that has been done.

This will be a fantastic event celebrating the start of the festive season in Havant with more Christmas entertainment than ever before.”

Additional Notes:

Havant Borough Council has not renamed its Christmas lights as the Festival of Light.
The Festival of Light is the name for a day of events in the town centre that includes switching on the Christmas lights and illuminating the Christmas trees, a Christmas carol concert and a Christingle Service at a local church. The event is called Festival of Light because the main feature is an illuminated parade of schoolchildren and community groups who will be wearing costumes with a light theme – building on the tradition of lantern parades through market towns. There will also be a free firework display.

Havant Borough Council has not made any change to the festive celebrations claiming that using the word Christmas could upset people of different cultures and faiths.
The name of the festival has not been changed to remove the word Christmas. For the reasons set out above the event on Friday 2 December has been called Festival of Lights from the outset.

----------------------

Typical lazy reporting from a rag of a newspaper. And it really didn't take much effort to find the truth behind the story. I suggest simple searching is done more often, before you believe anyhting that is written in the media.

[Harry_Wong]

Is this the most miserable town in Britain?
by ANDY DOLAN, Daily Mail 08:00am 16th November 2005
Comments Reader comments (46)
As the festive season approaches, towns dust off the Christmas lights and prepare to twinkle. In Havant, they haven't. They've decided to have a Festival of Lights instead, to avoid offending non-Christians.

And they're getting rid of Father Christmas and his grotto while they're at it. After a decade in the Hampshire town's Meridian shopping centre, bosses there have evicted him for being too 'tired' and a fire hazard to boot.

Yesterday, the decision to drop Christmas lights was greeted with amazement in a borough where 99.1 per cent of residents are white.

Even the leader of Tory-run Havant Borough Council branded it ridiculous.

Council leader David Gillett said: "It's Christmas and these are Christmas lights. I don't see any sense in denying this. I can't for the life of me see why people would be offended by this and, to be honest, I don't think anyone is.

"It's just a case of political correctness gone absolutely barmy."

The lights cost more than £5,000 and have been paid for by the council and the Havant Business Group, who between them have decided to drop Christmas from the title. The festival will begin on December 2 with a torch-lit procession of schoolchildren through the town centre and a fireworks display.

'Town has failed its customers'
A Christmas tree will be on display with shoppers invited to join carol singing and visit a Christmas market.

Russell Crocker, manager at Boots and deputy chairman of the Havant Business Group, said: "There is an issue about overdoing political correctness here but we are not trying to cancel Christmas. We want this to be a big boost for the town that will include as many people as possible."

But resident Pushpar Sanderscorr, 47, a Hindu, said there was nothing wrong with Christmas lights in the town. "It is not offensive, quite the opposite. We should celebrate all cultures, including Christian."

John Willis, who runs a fruit and vegetable shop in Havant, said the town had failed its customers. "Banning Santa's grotto and dropping the word Christmas is ludicrous. It will make for a miserable Christmas in Havant," he said.

A spokesman for the Muslim Council of Britain said: "This sounds like a case of a local council taking it upon itself to decide what is offensive, rather than consult the community it serves. If the council took the trouble to ask local people what they thought, they would find that people of all faiths do not have a problem with this."

A council spokesman said the festival was the first part of an initiative to "promote the town centre in winter and summer months". He added: "The title Festival of Light reflects the fact that the event will provide a spectacular illuminated display".

Retailers have brought forward their Christmas advertising campaigns this year in the hope of luring reluctant shoppers. Most usually wait until mid-November to start festive advertising. This year Sainsbury's started its print ads on October 6 while Argos's Christmas TV commercials began two weeks later.

If the name weren't already taken, they should call the town Barking. But it's Havant, which is, according to The Mail, '99.1% white' - so we know this 'PC' story is really race relations.

Sacking Santa for being too tired, and a fire hazard - that's worthy of The Office or The Simpsons. Presumably that saved some money for the Council & 'Havant Business Group' to pay for the lights, (£5k!) and put on their 'Festival of Light'...a torch-lit procession of schoolchildren through the town centre and a fireworks display.

No fire hazard there then. 

Personally, I suspect the Council and Havant Business Group, pressed for money, slashed labour costs by sacking Santa and roping in children; got a deal on some cheap, non-Christmas lights (Diwali = Festival of Light?); and decided to re-arrange the theme accordingly.

The Council leader tried to distance himself from it, and even make a little political capital, by raising the 'PC gone mad' diversion, but given the embarassment the story was causing, he had to roll in behind it - they're not going to shell out another £5k, business has been bad.

[Alan_X]

If the name weren't already taken, they should call the town Barking. But it's Havant, which is, according to The Mail, '99.1% white' - so we know this 'PC' story is really race relations.

Sacking Santa for being too tired, and a fire hazard - that's worthy of The Office or The Simpsons. Presumably that saved some money for the Council & 'Havant Business Group' to pay for the lights, (£5k!) and put on their 'Festival of Light'...a torch-lit procession of schoolchildren through the town centre and a fireworks display.

No fire hazard there then. 

Personally, I suspect the Council and Havant Business Group, pressed for money, slashed labour costs by sacking Santa and roping in children; got a deal on some cheap, non-Christmas lights (Diwali = Festival of Light?); and decided to re-arrange the theme accordingly.

The Council leader tried to distance himself from it, and even make a little political capital, by raising the 'PC gone mad' diversion, but given the embarassment the story was causing, he had to roll in behind it - they're not going to shell out another £5k, business has been bad.

Did you read any of the posts above this? The whole story is a shitload of utter tripe! The "Festival of Light" is on DECEMBER THE 2ND. What the fuck has that got to do with Christmas!

Repeat after me....  There is no story here... There is no story here....   There is no story here....  There is no story here....  There is no story here....  There is no story here.... 

calm down and move along now..... nothing to see.... just a reactionary newspaper trying to stir up trouble......

You should see some of the reader's comments on this (non)story..... 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=368752&in_page_id=1770&expand=true#StartComments

Viz Letterbocks anyone?

I've said it before on this board but the stupidity and gullibility of some people scares me sometimes. I sometimes think Kristallnacht is only a Daily Mail editorial away...

[Harry_Wong]

Yes I'd already read the posts, and the readers comments too. Raj from Birmingham was the funniest.

I have no doubts whatsoever that this inane decision is the work of a white, middle class man who is jumping on the race relations bandwagon to further his own career. Our society is littered with these patronising individuals who prey on real problems of race to further their own career. I am not aware of any non Christian person who could possibly take offence at the celebration of a festival which is commemorated in almost every country in the world. Please look upon this stupid decision as simply another manifestation by people desperate for personal advancement and exploiting the real problems of race in the U.K. for their own ends. It has nothing to do with the 'loony left' or the 'racist right'. I would like to invite the idiot responsible for this to a nice glass of sherry and a delicious mince pie in front of the big Xmas tree and lights in my rather tastefully ethnic sitting room.
- Raj Patel, Birmingham, UK

...

The story refers to Havant being "99.1 per cent white". What relationship does this have with the celebration of Christmas or people's religious views? Don't black people celebrate Christmas? Can't Indian people be Christians?
- Ian, Beijing, China

There is a story here, its just one of small-town politicians and commerce trying to palm-off their lameness and stupidity on 'PC gone mad'.

Why else do you think David Gillett, Leader of Havant Borough Council, was railing against this one week, then issuing statments in support the next?

Havant's 'Festival of Light' has been (mis-)conceived to promote the commercial town-centre in the run up to Christmas.

[Alan_X]

No story Harry. Read Millsee's post above:

Statement from David Gillett, Leader of Havant Borough Council

“Contrary to media reports Christmas is very much being celebrated in Havant this year. There will be Christmas trees in Havant town centre, Christmas lights will be switched on in the precinct, a Christmas Carol concert will be held in the Meridian Centre and the usual Christingle service will take place at St Faiths Church. Havant is not the town that banned Christmas.

I did not have all the facts to hand when approached by the media, and now much has been made over a misunderstanding about the title of this event. The event is called Festival of Light simply because the main feature is an illuminated parade of schools and community groups wearing costumes on the theme of light, and the event concludes with a free firework display over Havant Park on Friday 2 December.

The name was not chosen to avoid offending people of different cultures and faiths, as has been incorrectly reported in the press, nor was it chosen to be politically correct. Christmas was not dropped from the title of the event.  

What is your point? It's clear even in the Daily Mail story that Christmas was never banned in Havant - the story refers to Christmas Trees, carol singing and a Christmas market. The only story is over a misunderstanding - if the Mail had any decency and wasn't so keen to promote the perils of "political correctness" it would publish a correction as many decent papers do. It's a windup and you choose (for whatever reason) to be wound up. If you can't understand the Mail's agenda in promoting these stories you should get out more and read a bit more.

[Harry_Wong]

That's a trusting attitude to take towards a politician's denial; especially one who was (by his own admission) talking bollocks the week before.

The event is called Festival of Light simply because the main feature is an illuminated parade of schools and community groups wearing costumes on the theme of light, and the event concludes with a free firework display over Havant Park on Friday 2 December.

You can't argue with logic like that - it's so backward. I'd love to have been there when they decided on the theme for the event-with-no-name, but nothing to do with Christmas.

[Alan_X]

That's a trusting attitude to take towards a politician's denial; especially one who was (by his own admission) talking bollocks the week before.

You can't argue with logic like that - it's so backward. I'd love to have been there when they decided on the theme for the event-with-no-name, but nothing to do with Christmas.

He's not a "politician" ffs.... he's a councillor in Havant not George Bush.

You trust the Daily Mail, the Gravesend Express and the nutjobs who write from fucking China about the Christmas celebrations in a small town in Sussex and imply I'm gullible

Have a look in the mirror mate, you're losing the plot on this one......

they haven't banned Christmas in Havant, they haven't banned Christmas anywhere....

[MrEcho]

1/People who swear only do it because they lack the vocabulary to express themselves.

and

2/Political correctness only has such an effect because the general public take it on board. If nobody paid a blind bit of notice it wouldn't keep progressing to ridiculous restraints on what is essentially our right to free speech.

[Alan_X]

And on the "banning" of Father Christmas Issue in the same town. As you would expect in these cases it had nothing to do with the council (Which is conservative not "loony left" by the way). The tacky and rather lame father Christmas has been organised by Havant Lions for some years in the equally tacky Meridian shopping centre. The Meridian Centre chucked him out because he was getting a bit tackly and was creating a fire hazard. But don't worry PCers he is now ensconced in Asda Bedhampton.

Santa's new home is as popular as ever
HE may have been kicked out of the Meridian Centre but Santa is still having a Merry Christmas in Havant.
Hundreds of children have been flocking to Santa's new grotto at Asda in Bedhampton.
The supermarket invited the grotto in after the Meridian Centre, in Havant town centre, said it could no longer accommodate it for fire safety reasons.
But today Havant Lions club, who run the grotto, said it did not matter where it went because youngsters still love it as much as ever.
Roger Green, president of the Lions, said: 'People's reaction has been brilliant.
'We have had a continuous stream of kids coming through and they love it as always.'
The new grotto has been built by Park Community School, in Leigh Park, who painted a colourful array of sweets and candies on the walls.'
01 December 2005

Also

1/People who swear only do it because they lack the vocabulary to express themselves.

and

2/Political correctness only has such an effect because the general public take it on board. If nobody paid a blind bit of notice it wouldn't keep progressing to ridiculous restraints on what is essentially our right to free speech.

1/ that is a load of fucking bollocks. Read a few of my past posts. When you can construct more than a one line reply get back to me. Why not try answering this one for a start mate:

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=98138.msg1578607#msg1578607

2/There is no such thing as "political correctness" in the terms you imply, so how can it progress ridiculous restraints on anybody's right to free speech? Have you been shopping in England this year? There are Christmas trees and lights and adverts for Christmas this and Christmas that every where! The Radio Times has a Christmas special edition as does the TV times and every other fucking magazine in the land. Nobody is trying to ban Christmas in this country!

And another thing.... If the people who promote political correctness are so powerful and all-pervading (big enough word MrEcho?) then why haven't they prevented the Sun with it's CRIMBO campaign and the Mail and the Express from constantly publishing these stories about minor councils and primary school teachers fomenting (another big word - I'm amazed at my fucking vocabulary sometimes) racial anarchy by banning Father Christmas and Baa Baa Black Sheep. Surely these people must be stopped before they destroy our country! Actually.... no hold it right there.... why doesn't the Sun/Express/Mail name the people who are controlling the "politically correct" agenda?

Answer: because they don't exist........

[Harry_Wong]

The fact is he is a politician - he sounds like the quintissential small-town politician. Let's not twist that fact just to lend credibility to his second go at spin on the story.

I don't "trust" the Daily Mail, Gravesend Expresss, or the comments on the story - why would I trust a paper that I noted puts a very thinly-veiled racist slant on a story?

When you pointed out the comments, I said I read them and found Raj was the funniest comment (I appreciated the irony used), not that I trusted his assessment of whatever happened in Havant. The point from the 'nutjob' in China was merely questioning the slant given to the story - no trust required, I just thought it was a salient point.

You trust the politicians rather circular denial, the one that was talking bollocks about 'PC gone mad' the week before.

I highlighted the part of the story that said, "A Christmas tree will be on display with shoppers invited to join carol singing and visit a Christmas market." - I certainly never suggested anyone had banned Christmas in Havant, or anywhere else.

The Council and the Commerce group decided to sack Santa, thought up a lame 'Festival of Light' (for no apparent reason now). The Council leader railed against his own council's decision when it went down like a lead-balloon, then embarrassed by the coverage that brought to his town, he backed down and supported it.

You seem to think because I suggest that there is a story (of small-town politicians and commerce trying to palm-off their lameness and stupidity on 'PC gone mad'), while you say there's no story, I must agree with the Mail, Gravesend Express and believe someone 'banned' Christmas. That's not the case, yet you believe the small-town Tory Council leader!

What is your point...It's a windup and you choose (for whatever reason) to be wound up. If you can't understand the Mail's agenda in promoting these stories you should get out more and read a bit more.

My point being the absurdity of the charge of 'PC gone mad' being made by the leader of the council that made the decision, who then denies his own charge and issues a circular rebuttal. I wasn't wound up, I was laughing at their lame stupidity. Of course I understand The Mail's agenda, you just misunderstood mine, thats all.

And I'm glad Santa found a new job.

[Alan_X]

The fact is he is a politician - he sounds like the quintissential small-town politician. Let's not twist that fact just to lend credibility to his second go at spin on the story.

I don't "trust" the Daily Mail, Gravesend Expresss, or the comments on the story - why would I trust a paper that I noted puts a very thinly-veiled racist slant on a story?

When you pointed out the comments, I said I read them and found Raj was the funniest comment (I appreciated the irony used), not that I trusted his assessment of whatever happened in Havant. The point from the 'nutjob' in China was merely questioning the slant given to the story - no trust required, I just thought it was a salient point.

You trust the politicians rather circular denial, the one that was talking bollocks about 'PC gone mad' the week before.

I highlighted the part of the story that said, "A Christmas tree will be on display with shoppers invited to join carol singing and visit a Christmas market." - I certainly never suggested anyone had banned Christmas in Havant, or anywhere else.

The Council and the Commerce group decided to sack Santa, thought up a lame 'Festival of Light' (for no apparent reason now). The Council leader railed against his own council's decision when it went down like a lead-balloon, then embarrassed by the coverage that brought to his town, he backed down and supported it.

You seem to think because I suggest that there is a story (of small-town politicians and commerce trying to palm-off their lameness and stupidity on 'PC gone mad'), while you say there's no story, I must agree with the Mail, Gravesend Express and believe someone 'banned' Christmas. That's not the case, yet you believe the small-town Tory Council leader!

My point being the absurdity of the charge of 'PC gone mad' being made by the leader of the council that made the decision, who then denies his own charge and issues a circular rebuttal. I wasn't wound up, I was laughing at their lame stupidity. Of course I understand The Mail's agenda, you just misunderstood mine, thats all.

And I'm glad Santa found a new job.

Sorry not getting the drift... need to read it again tomorrow...


g'night....

[redmen9]

When you look how far we have come as a social race, from drowning witches to drilling holes in mad people's heads to broadcasting TV programmes such as 'in sickness and in health' and 'the black and white minstrel show' with their openly derogatory racist connotations, you realise that all PC has done is help evolve the social conscience of the nation.

Gay couples can now be legally acknowledged, women now occupy posts that were previously the preserve of men, people from ethnic backrounds have the right to be treated equally in every aspect of life etc etc.  This is all good.

PC, however, occasionally oversteps the mark.  I seem to remember Tesco's recently removing a 'pig' logo from their till receipts as they were offending Muslim shoppers.  I also get annoyed when I hear that kids from predominantly Christian schools have to change their traditional nativity play for fear of upsetting children and parents of other religious denominations. 


Surely with the UK being a Christian country,  people who move to these shores should accept our customs and traditions.  I doubt that my concerns would be listened to if I were to move to, say Oman or East Timor.  There's me being non-PC again!


All this PC stuff reminds me of a classic comedy dialogue:



Reg: Furthermore, it is the birthright of every man —
Stan: Or woman.
Reg: Why don't you shut up about women, Stan? You're putting us off.
Stan: Women have a perfect right to play a part in our movement, Reg.
Francis: Why are you always on about women, Stan?
Stan: I want to be one.
Reg, Francis: What?
Stan: I want to be a woman. From now on, I want you all to call me "Loretta".
Reg: Wha'?
Stan: It's my right as a man.
Judith: Well,why do you want to be Loretta, Stan?
Stan: I want to have babies.
Reg: You want to have babies?!
Stan: It's every man's right to have babies if he wants them.
Reg: But... you can't have babies.
Stan: Don't you oppress me!
Reg: I'm not oppressing you, Stan, you haven't got a womb! Where's the fetus gonna gestate? You gonna keep it in a box?
[Stan/Loretta starts to cry.]
Judith: Here! I-I've got an idea. Suppose that you agree that he can't actually have babies, not having a womb — which is nobody's fault, not even the Romans' — but that he can have the right to have babies.
Francis: Good idea, Judith. We shall fight the oppressors for your right to have babies, brother. Sister, sorry.
Reg: Wh-what's the point?
Francis: Wha'?
Reg: What's the point of fighting for his right to have babies when he can't have babies?
Francis: It is symbolic of our struggle against oppression.
Reg: It's symbolic of his struggle against reality.

[Millsee]

PC, however, occasionally oversteps the mark.  I seem to remember Tesco's recently removing a 'pig' logo from their till receipts as they were offending Muslim shoppers.  I also get annoyed when I hear that kids from predominantly Christian schools have to change their traditional nativity play for fear of upsetting children and parents of other religious denominations. 

I can't find any reference to either of these stories. Have you got links to them?

[redmen9]

I can't find any reference to either of these stories. Have you got links to them?

This mentions the Tesco till receipt thing:
http://www.isic-centre.org/Bulletins/97_Oct_Nov.pdf

[redmen9]

As for the way nativity plays have changed, you'll just have to take my word for it.  I've been reliably told by both my sister and work colleagues who have recently attended their children's/grandchildren's 'winter festival' plays.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

I don't think that the Tesco thing has got any relevance to any PC debate, after all they were just doing what any sane retailer would do, removing anything that would potentially anger any of their customers, however small a minority.

[hooded claw]

I don't think that the Tesco thing has got any relevance to any PC debate, after all they were just doing what any sane retailer would do, removing anything that would potentially anger any of their customers, however small a minority.

They didn't move the life-size cutout of Lampard when I complained though.

[Bullan]

Hmm. Really?

Typical lazy reporting from a rag of a newspaper. And it really didn't take much effort to find the truth behind the story. I suggest simple searching is done more often, before you believe anyhting that is written in the media.

You can suggest all you want , my point is that people read these horror stories despite their obvious misgivings and actually believe that there is a campaign to eradicate Christmas.

Now you and I can argue the merits of such twisted logic all day long but that does not discount the fact that Joe and Ethel Smoe read this tripe , believe it , because it's in the paper and that in return fuels their resentment.

I didn't write any of these stories so I suggest you be a little less condescending towards me , and perhaps grasp my post in its whole rather than playing Nancy Drew with parts of it.