Topic: RUC chief to advice iraq police WTF???

[ewok-red]

As if things were not bad enough for the people of iraq the UK is sending a former NI policing chief to Basra in southern Iraq to carry out a review of policing there.

Sir Ronnie Flanagan is the former chief constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland, formerly the RUC, who have a notorious reputation for sectarianism, murder and brutality. 

The RUC has been involved in Human rights abuses throughout its existence, operating a shoot to kill policy, and being the 'strong arm of  of Protestant ascendancy'.  Alongside its cover ups, lies, misinformation and brutality there is also evidence that they worked closely with loyalist gunmen to facilitate assassinations etc.

One wonders which of these wonderful ways of working sir ronnie is going to train the iraqi police in!

they will be telling us they have put gary glitter in charge of the childrens services next
or pete doherty in charge of chemicals



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4497128.stm


new version
the UK is sending a former NI policing chief to Basra in southern Iraq to carry out a review of policing there.

Sir Ronnie Flanagan is the former chief constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland, formerly the RUC, who have a notorious reputation for sectarianism, murder and brutality. 

The RUC has been involved in Human rights abuses throughout its existence, operating a shoot to kill policy, and being the 'strong arm of  of Protestant ascendancy'.  Alongside its cover ups, lies, misinformation and brutality there is also evidence that they worked closely with loyalist gunmen to facilitate assassinations etc.

One wonders which of these wonderful ways of working sir ronnie is going to train the iraqi police in!

they will be telling us they have put gary glitter in charge of the childrens services next
or pete doherty in charge of chemicals



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4497128.stm


edited to suit herr armins pandering to the separation of 'news' and 'opinion'.  armin seems to have forgotten that the two are not mutually exclusive "Until the Lions Have Their Historians, Tales of the Hunted Will Always Glorify
The Hunter"

[Kanonkop]

That of course is your view.  Others might argue that given the history of NI, he will be able to give an insight into policing a situation where there is ongoing conflict between different sectors as quite clearly Iraq is in a big heap of trouble on that score.

[BIGdavalad]

That of course is your view.  Others might argue that given the history of NI, he will be able to give an insight into policing a situation where there is ongoing conflict between different sectors as quite clearly Iraq is in a big heap of trouble on that score.

Eg-fucking-zackly.

Ewok - try just reporting your story instead of making a general attack on a police force that was in the front line against terrorism for over 30 years (suffering over 7,500 deaths and injuries) and was awarded the George Cross in recognition of the bravery and professionalism of their officers

[rednich85]

Ronnie Flannagan is a tosser, a grade A fucking tosser

[Danny Boys Dad]

Eg-fucking-zackly.

Ewok - try just reporting your story instead of making a general attack on a police force that was in the front line against terrorism for over 30 years (suffering over 7,500 deaths and injuries) and was awarded the George Cross in recognition of the bravery and professionalism of their officers

Nothing Ewok said is untrue though is it?

[rednich85]

The RUC (PSNI) for that matter are Strife rising c*nts also

[BIGdavalad]

Nothing Ewok said is untrue though is it?

Doesn't matter, this forum's for news, not a general opinion on something followed by a link to a news story.

[Danny Boys Dad]

Doesn't matter, this forum's for news, not a general opinion on something followed by a link to a news story.

Not really, I thought this forum was for having a bit of a debate about the news items. Ewok has posted an item and had his say on it, can't see anything wrong with that.

[rednich85]

Not really, I thought this forum was for having a bit of a debate about the news items. Ewok has posted an item and had his say on it, can't see anything wrong with that.

I agree

[BIGdavalad]

Not really, I thought this forum was for having a bit of a debate about the news items. Ewok has posted an item and had his say on it, can't see anything wrong with that.

He hasn't though - he's had a general attack on the RUC and mentioned that one of their old bosses is going to Iraq for a review (can't see the problem, there were loads of ex-RUC lads working with the Iraqi police when I was there, more than from anywhere else) and thrown in the BBC link as an afterthought.

As Armin said to my suggestion that news stories should be posted without any opinion, with the opinion added in a seperate post

Or if not a separate post, at least put your opinion in after the article.  That way you're not skewing peoples thoughts before they've had a chance to read the piece and form their own position.

Most of the other mods seemed to agree with that.

[BIGdavalad]

As far as it goes - who better than the RUC to advise on a country being torn apart by secterian attacks by dickheads using religion as an excuse to kill?

[ewok-red]

Doesn't matter, this forum's for news, not a general opinion on something followed by a link to a news story.

so we don't do opinion on this thread, well that should cut the length of quite a few of my threads

[Maggie May]

so we don't do opinion on this thread, well that should cut the length of quite a few of my threads

Noooooooooooo.    What Armin said was:   

1.   Post the article.

2.  Post your opinions.

3.  Therefore you are not skewing people's thoughts about the article prior to them reading it, and so on and so forth.

You seem to have got this arseways backwards Ewok. 

[Dick Winters]

I am from the north of Ireland and have had both positive and negative brushes with the police here.  From the outset, I will say that I am from a staunchly republican area.  I don't like posting about our past here as I tend to steer clear of it but I will make an exception here.

We were in the thick of the 'war' to put it mildly.  Cops came in to my area usually only in choppers backed up by a platoon of squaddies.  They had to or they would have been killed.  Simple as that.  One example - a lorry jackknifed down the road and before the law could help move it - three Puma loads of paras were dropped on the hills surrounding to ward of attack from the 'boys'.

Therefore, we had no proper policing.  And yes, I do believe there was state involvement in attacks.  You always knew around our way if there were a lot of police around that an attack by loyalists was in the offing (particularly on republicans and their families).  Now, I won't go into whens and wheres but we knew this was happening and I know people will argue with me on it.   

This place was completely fucked up.  No two ways of looking at it.  A dirty war between both sides was ongoing and we (civilians) were stuck in the middle of it.  However, in many respects, I felt the cops here had a bloody difficult job and many of them did a very professional job.  Yes, there were bad eggs but aren't they everywhere?

Also, since 94 things have moved on and the police have moved on.  The police here have changed and I believe even Sinn Fein will ultimately accept that. 

A lot of painful things happened here in the past but I feel we are moving slowly forward.  I believe Ronnie Flannagan had a lot to do with the changes in the police service here and he did make some major organisational changes.  I therefore, feel that he is the most qualified person to try and make a police service work in a bitterly, sectarian society where a war is currently taking place.  He knows the score and he gets things done. 

[ewok-red]

Doesn't matter, this forum's for news, not a general opinion on something followed by a link to a news story.

ah, i get it now. first i post the news story without comment, and then a few posts down i put the non news bit further down the thread and then it can go in a news thread

Can't argue with that - they should have cut his cock off the first time he got caught.

[Kanonkop]

Dick Winters - Thanks for a very insightful read on the situation in NI and a factual and well thought out answer.

[Maggie May]

ah, i get it now. first i post the news story without comment, and then a few posts down i put the non news bit further down the thread and then it can go in a news thread

No.

Noooooooooooo.    What Armin said was:  

1.   Post the article.

2.  Post your opinions.

3.  Therefore you are not skewing people's thoughts about the article prior to them reading it, and so on and so forth.

So you can do 1, immediately followed by 2 in the same post.   

So:

1.   Are you taking the piss?

2.   Are you completely stupid?

[ewok-red]

No.

So you can do 1, immediately followed by 2 in the same post.   

So:

1.   Are you taking the piss?

2.   Are you completely stupid?

i wish it was the first, but its probably the second.


i have modified the original post to comply with the moderators ridiculous remit.  i will be told next that all 'news' is objective !

 "Until the Lions Have Their Historians, Tales of the Hunted Will Always Glorify
The Hunter"

[rednich85]

Dick Winters, agreed with most of your post however the summary was a dissapointment.

Ronnie Flannigan is a Biggot

[ewok-red]

Dick,
good post and points made.  but given the backdrop to the 'reforms' was an ongoing dialogue with the terrorists, a very long and determined insurgency, a growing achnowledgement that things couldn't go on like that i don't see that its a positive role model.

interestingly there are some historic comparisions that are worth noting:

invasion of one nation by another
division based of economic wealth
reinforced  smokescreened by religious aliagence
segregation of area and subject to different command
creation of police / military force seen as partisan and serving interests of invading elite
no right to basic democratic, economic and social equality for citizens other than those imposed by invaders
striking of deals / distribution of power and wealth into hands of minority....

[Dick Winters]

Dick Winters, agreed with most of your post however the summary was a dissapointment.

Ronnie Flannigan is a Biggot

Thanks for what you say and on your disappointment I will try to explain my opinion. 

I accept that he has many flaws - not sure on him being a bigot though.  He is a copper, a Protestant and a staunch unionist no doubt.  I am sure he is very proud  of his background which I completely respect (as am I as a nationalist) and also let's face it he came up through the ranks of the RUC and headed their Special Branch.  He has bound to have lost loads of friends so we must look at that and accept that as part of him.  So he isn't foreign to having strong opinions on the north.

However, taking that into account I still feel he was an extremely effective Chief Constable (I know coppers who think he was a twat, I accept that) who I felt oversaw a huge change in the environment in policing in NI and did it well.  That's my point.  He took a force that has policed a divided community and acted really as a paramilitary force and began the process of Patton and the change to the PSNI now.  He acted through a process that was extremely painful to the RUC and I think did it well (despite huge pressures from within his ranks and from both sections of the community).

So whilst I recognise he has many weaknesses I do think he did do a good job as the last head of the RUC and made the job for Hugh Orde (who I also think is an excellent Chief Constable) a lot easier.

[Dick Winters]

Dick,
good post and points made.  but given the backdrop to the 'reforms' was an ongoing dialogue with the terrorists, a very long and determined insurgency, a growing achnowledgement that things couldn't go on like that i don't see that its a positive role model.

I think you are spot on with this - times were ripe for change here.  People were war weary and dialogue with the 'terrorists' had occurred.  They are years from that in Iraq and normalisation can only occur when the people want it.  Iraq is like NI in the early 70's (only on a much larger scale)

[Kanonkop]

ewok-red

What would you do to sort out Iraq if it was your remit?

[ewok-red]

I think you are spot on with this - times were ripe for change here.  People were war weary and dialogue with the 'terrorists' had occurred.  They are years from that in Iraq and normalisation can only occur when the people want it.  Iraq is like NI in the early 70's (only on a much larger scale)

thats why the 'news' of the appointment concerned me.  As he came up through the ranks he was obviously witness to and aware of the activities of the force, and indeed as you said was culturally / politically in the thick of it, but the role of reformer and begruded willingness to acknowledge some of the more sinister / violent /collusional activities did not come until they were no longer able to maintain the facade of partiality, truth etc

[BIGdavalad]

thats why the 'news' of the appointment concerned me.  As he came up through the ranks he was obviously witness to and aware of the activities of the force, and indeed as you said was culturally / politically in the thick of it, but the role of reformer and begruded willingness to acknowledge some of the more sinister / violent /collusional activities did not come until they were no longer able to maintain the facade of partiality, truth etc

You don't know that anything he did was grudging or not. You don't know if he was witness to any of the less savoury things the RUC did (some of which I think were necessary, some weren't) or not, you don't know that he was in the thick of anything or not.

As Dick Winters said, the RUC did what was one of the most dangerous jobs in the world (how many other professions have risks that include execution in front of your wife and kids, sniping, mortar attacks and bombs just for doing the wrong job?) for a long time, and for the most part did it fairly and professionally.

Yet again though, it's more fun for some people to rip someone doing a job they have no concept of and couldn't do in a million apart than it is to consider both sides of an argument.

[ewok-red]

Yet again though, it's more fun for some people to rip someone doing a job they have no concept of and couldn't do in a million apart than it is to consider both sides of an argument.

consider both sides - thats a bit rich. and i wasnt trying to rip him i was trying to have a discussion about the political ROLE of the military in the world today - but once again you choose to personalise it.

[BIGdavalad]

consider both sides - thats a bit rich. and i wasnt trying to rip him i was trying to have a discussion about the political ROLE of the military in the world today - but once again you choose to personalise it.

The RUC are police, not military.

You said youself that:

Sir Ronnie Flanagan is the former chief constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland, formerly the RUC, who have a notorious reputation for sectarianism, murder and brutality. 

The RUC has been involved in Human rights abuses throughout its existence, operating a shoot to kill policy, and being the 'strong arm of  of Protestant ascendancy'.  Alongside its cover ups, lies, misinformation and brutality there is also evidence that they worked closely with loyalist gunmen to facilitate assassinations etc.

One wonders which of these wonderful ways of working sir ronnie is going to train the iraqi police in!

and

As he came up through the ranks he was obviously witness to and aware of the activities of the force, and indeed as you said was culturally / politically in the thick of it, but the role of reformer and begruded willingness to acknowledge some of the more sinister / violent /collusional activities did not come until they were no longer able to maintain the facade of partiality, truth etc

You said that he personally would have had been at least a wtiness to some of the things the RUC would have done in the NI in the past. I haven't personalised anything, I said the RUC had done a hard and dangerous job and had sometimes had to do things that weren't particularly nice, and that sometimes those things were not neccessary.

[Dick Winters]

consider both sides - thats a bit rich. and i wasnt trying to rip him i was trying to have a discussion about the political ROLE of the military in the world today - but once again you choose to personalise it.

Today?  Think you will agree that the military has had a role in politics since time began - as in crossing the Rubecon, etc.  Was it not Machiavelli who said that Princes should never allow a full time standing army as they always had too much power?

Anyway, getting off the point.  Ewok - I think you twisted my words a little!  I was giving Flannagan credit for being able to lead a police force to change even though he had served as a distinguished member of it through its bad years.  From my point of view a man like that is the only sort to be able to push through change.

For example, could you imagine a bunch of battle hardened coppers in NI (let's face it - on some of the toughest streets in the world at a time - and still are) being told to change by some Chief Constable (and please excuse this) who had been a Deputy Chief Constable from an English shire where they had to deal with burglaries, muggings and traffic offences rather than what they went through. 

I don't think so.  He was the right man for the job (not escaping the fact that the crash at the Mull of Kinytyre was from a career point of view a lucky break for him...)

[ewok-red]

The RUC are police, not military.

well as i understood the Hunt report was not that convinced the issues are not that variant. mind you thats a bit old, and as has been said the forces of british imperialism were well on the say to reform in more recent times, as the stevens report so clearly identifies

[ewok-red]

Today?  Think you will agree that the military has had a role in politics since time began - as in crossing the Rubecon, etc.  Was it not Machiavelli who said that Princes should never allow a full time standing army as they always had too much power?

i would agree the military has a role in politics and visa versa, but others here to not.

Ewok - I think you twisted my words a little! 

it wont be the first time or the last 
in my wordy battles against the apologists for military imperialism and the new world order i am oftem found clutching at straws, casting wide unsunstansiated allegations, failing to back up my brikbats with proper evidence etc.
pathetic arent I.

[Dick Winters]

i would agree the military has a role in politics and visa versa, but others here to not.

it wont be the first time or the last 
in my wordy battles against the apologists for military imperialism and the new world order i am oftem found clutching at straws, casting wide unsunstansiated allegations, failing to back up my brikbats with proper evidence etc.
pathetic arent I.

No, not at all!  The world would be a duller place but for 'tree-hugging hippy idealists!!' 

I enjoyed this debate today.  I am not an apologist for militarism either.  I would see myself in the realm of pragmatic realism (which really is pathetic)!!  I am sure we will deabte again on some worthy topic and I am equally sure I will agree with some of your arguments and disagree also! 

[ewok-red]

i just have to do it to keep dav in  his place. otherwise this place would be overrun by his superior military experience and disregard for tree huggers

[Kanonkop]

ewok-red, you need to check this site out:

www.chopdownallthetreestobanishtreehugging.gov.uk/thearmy

[ewok-red]

ewok-red, you need to check this site out:

www.chopdownallthetreestobanishtreehugging.gov.uk/thearmy

and you need to try

www.realworld.com

or

www.customtitleasirony.co.uk

[Eric]

Is what ewok-red saying really that hard to swallow? 

I don't no shite about NI or RUC but the CIA does stuff like this all of the time, like when they sent some of the Nazi's to S. America to carry out thier dirty work, or how some of Saddam's torturers are working at Guantanamo.  It makes sense beacause these people are really good at what they do, and aren't bound by any international law.

It's not illegal to teach torture.

[BIGdavalad]

Is what ewok-red saying really that hard to swallow? 

I don't no shite about NI or RUC

And there the relevance to this thread ends...

[harmar]

Sort that headline out because that would suggest either a lack of judgement in a person or a biased political opinion. 

Is it just me, or has this place become more and more politicallly divided over this past week or two ?

[ewok-red]

And there the relevance to this thread ends...

you wish

[ewok-red]

Sort that headline out because that would suggest either a lack of judgement in a person or a biased political opinion. 

Is it just me, or has this place become more and more politicallly divided over this past week or two ?

oh it will be biased political opinion -  news is often biased.

on the second matter don't know about the others but theres always been a country mile between dav and I,  it occasionally dwindles into grudging personal respect on my part but there is deffo a crouch size distance between us

[Maggie May]

but there is deffo a crouch size distance between us

Possibly because of the Crouch size distance between those who are up the sharp end, (and BIGDava has been), who do as they're told, go where they're told and fight and bleed and die in accordance with an oath they've sworn and believe in, and those who whinge and whine, and pick and criticise.   Keyboard and armchair warriors who would shit themselves if a car backfired.   Who pale into significance when compared with the deeds of better men.

“War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things.  The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse.  The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature, and has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.”