Topic: Tensions between India and Pakistan over Kashmir

[great power rising]

It's strange that a person with your nationalist mindset supports a Club like ours,especially so when you also dislike Western "Liberals" & would prefer democracy but aren't really arsed so long as that means you get what you want & are still able to say fuck everybody else.

I don't dislike "Liberals" at all.

I dislike cookie cutter arguments, censorship of thought considered "other" and the not so subtle pushing of agendas without a holistic overview of the facts. This is just as present if not more prevalent in the bat shit crazy portion of the right but I hold "liberals" to a higher standard.

The most damming indictment of this was when Lee Kuan Yew, head of a state wrote a page long rebuttal to an accusation made by the Times, the Times edited out a paragraph without letting him know changing the entire meaning of his argument. Lee went on to limit the number of copies they could sell in Singapore leading to the predictable outrage worldwide of suppression of free speech. He stuck to his guns and they finally relented and published the full rebuttal. The fact that he had to go to such means whilst being painted the victim infuriates me and it was not an isolated incident.

I have a particular sticking point with some Western "Liberals" because they look at the world through their own narrow lens. I mean it's understandable why they are doing it but looking at China through the lens of western liberalism is destined to fail. A lot of the solutions they propose are also incapable of solving the real problems of the third world which is far more violent and brutal than the first world and many places that come from a completely different cultural reference point.

I have a whole litany of issues with the right starting with and not stopping with their idolation of the past.

For me, as Andrew Yang says, it's not left and its not right. It's forward!!

[Max_powers]

Again you keep saying that these issues can't be solved without human right abuses. Yet there is nothing to show any of that. There is also nothing showing that arsehole authoritarian regimes automatically lead to greater good of the population.

You also are happy to see other people and other families being subjected to human right abuses are unwilling to answer if you would be ok living in those same conditions for a greater good.

Honestly mate, you would be better of supporting Man City or Chelsea as those clubs align more closely with your worldview. You should know that Liverpool as a club has strong liberal roots.

The song YNWA basically signifies the feeling of being in this together. Note: This totally the anti-thesis of what you are preaching.

[great power rising]

You never asked the question. You asked a hysterical question whether we would be okay with people being tortured which was never claimed.

To answer your question, yes I would do it. If giving up my land for less than fair value and guarantee of work meant the rapid scaling of infrastructure could be achieved in a shorter duration and my lifetime earnings could be greater than sitting there  I would one hundred percent do it. When you're earning 400 dollars a year and barely eating two meals it is better to bravely walk into the unknown and see where the chips fall.

If im earning 1000 dollars in the city compared to the 400 dollars in the village but did not have access to the health facilities available to the city residents I would hopefully understand that ground realities of the situation make it impossible and that the govt has already improved my living standards and it would be better to remain patient till things catch up rather than demanding things yesterday because they were a violation of human rights and picking up arms.

I've spoon-fed you enough, like I said have the courtesy to read what people have taken the time to write

EDIT : And to respond to your tangential point which had no relevance, my attraction to Liverpool is based on the fact that they are historically a great club, perhaps the 'greatest' even that were left behind by the rapid modernization that occurred due to various factors and have tried their level best to bridge that gap to return to the summit and are now on the verge of doing so. If you can't see the corollary there, I cannot help you.

[great power rising]

I see my suggestion to read and understand what the person is saying before flying into a hysterical rant went over your head. Christ, you're all over the place, a career in Puffpost awaits.

I said there is an example in China which is a violation of human rights that is more or less unavoidable for this generation. They are already rapidly increasing the number of people who can avail those benefits but they will not reach 100 percent coverage for another two generations at least. If you have a solution to this, the Chinese government will probably pay you a couple of million so you can figure it out and let us know how it went. No one mentioned anything about Xinjang.

The rest of your post in just as nonsensical as your premise. I have not met even one Indian who admires China. Do you have a survey to provide backing to your claim or are you picking numbers out of thin air again? Every military analyst and the government is aware that Pakistan is actually small fry and our biggest threat is China. All the military modernization taking place is done with an eye on containing Chinese expansionist tendencies. The Americans have started coming bearing gifts but they are fools, they don't understand India, they think we will be a Japan happy to open our country to their overseas bases. Its laugh

And who, or what, do you think your 'we' really will be, in due course?

What is it that you are seeking?

"We" is the Republic and the citizens that fall beneath her.

The end goal is a technologically sophisticated state, providing a lifestyle for her citizens that is comparable to anyone anywhere. A sovereign republic that answers only to internationally set guidelines (when the international order is more reflective of the world and not a handful of Western nations) and does not act as a stooge of the American empire unlike some other nations. One that is more than capable of defending her borders against hostile players in itself acting as a deterrent if and until a global government becomes a reality.

To achieve this, we do not have 200 years that the Western world took (and they had the advantage of stealing wealth from various civilizations) considering the onrushing tides of technological changes that have the potential to change humanity forever. He who arrives first will probably be the winner and thus numerous sacrifices will have to be made.

The respect of human rights is the ideal state but it is unclear if even Western democracies adhered to it during their phase of nation building considering it was universally enshrined in 1948 after their manufacturing revolutions had occurred and all that wealth was siphoned of civilizations during colonialism and America was built using slave labour. Like I said previously, we should work whenever we can to respect it but it will not be possible always.

[thegoodfella]

Pakistan is actually small fry and our biggest threat is China.

Climate change and the diminishing glaciers is the biggest threat you dimwitted twat.

[masher]

You're right, that was uncalled for. Apologies, Masher.

No worries mate, good to have a healthy discussion. Being Indian I am bound to be biased, always interested in listening to different perspective.

[great power rising]

Climate change and the diminishing glaciers is the biggest threat you dimwitted twat.

In the context of the thread I assumed it was clear we were talking about threats from a military perspective. The preceding  statement which specifically mentioned military analysts should have erased that ambiguity.

I am well aware we have crossed the point of no return with respect to climate change and automation is another severe threat to social stability. Funny how the Western world managed to politicise that as well refusing for the longest time to take the burden considering they got us in this mess and now India and China have raced ahead with clean energy with America and Australia doing their best to protect coal.

Climate change is coming for us all and it needs to be a global effort but it is again naive to think that some nations are not looking at it through the lens of realpolitik. Climate change is going to affect Russia less than the Middle East and they are alredy looking at commercialising the Arctic lanes.

It is sad and abhorrent but do not underestimate the stupidity of mankind.

Reforming the international order to give everyone an equal voice with enforcable teeth to deter powerful nations from pursuing their own selfish  interests at the expense of others is a pressing priority. I honestly do not know how we are going to do it but it is a must

[masher]

What do you think would be the ideal outcome in Kashmir?

Honestly the best solution in my opinion is for all parties to accept the status quo. Agree on LOC to be the international border and let there be free movement of people, trade etc. 

We have been close to agreeing to such a solution, the Agra summit with Musharraf and Vajpayee was on the verge of signing such an agreement. Alas it could not.

[leroy]

I would say that any nuclear capable power can't be considered "small fry".

["21C or 70F?" SchizoidWeatherMan!]

Bad grammar throughout though. My insomnia kicked in last night, which prompted me to muck around here for a while, and I ended up writing that. Just re-read it and noticed so many grammatical errors!

Screw the grammatical errors, you articulated your points well enough and I still haven't seen any credible responses in the thread.

Ah well. 

There is no 'peaceful' solution for Kashmir that appeases every party involved in the 'conflict'.  A political solution with LOC as the border will not be acceptable to Pakistan and a significant section of Kashmiris. Independence is out of the question for reasons already outlined in this thread, especially from an Indian perspective. Nor do I believe complete independence is the best outcome for Kashmiris, given the limited economic potential of the state (tourism and horticulture is all there is), its landlocked status and vulnerability to outside interference.

Unfortunately, I don't see any way out from this. 

[24/7]

There isn't. So for the sake of peace on the forum, this one stays locked. Feel free to continue any debate via PMs but consider this a mercy lock....