Author Topic: Freedom of speech  (Read 84479 times)

Offline G1 Jockey 4(betfair)

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #280 on: January 14, 2015, 01:20:33 pm »
I think he might be confusing the editing process with censorship. Unless, of course, the government has been telling you guys to remove certain posts?

no.
read the rodgers thread and when someone questions rodgers some people jump in and effectively rubbish their opinion..with nothing more than insults.

nothing to do with censorship.

its person trying to stop freedom of speech.
Freedom of Speech unless you get shouted down and abused by the in-crowd.

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #281 on: January 14, 2015, 01:21:55 pm »
no.
read the rodgers thread and when someone questions rodgers some people jump in and effectively rubbish their opinion..with nothing more than insults.

nothing to do with censorship.

its person trying to stop freedom of speech.

Well that's deplorable if true. But it's not the curtailing of freedom of speech.
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Offline G1 Jockey 4(betfair)

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #282 on: January 14, 2015, 01:27:55 pm »
Well that's deplorable if true. But it's not the curtailing of freedom of speech.


what is it designed to do then?

Freedom of Speech unless you get shouted down and abused by the in-crowd.

Offline Magix

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #283 on: January 14, 2015, 01:37:18 pm »
The insults may add nothing to the conversation but they don't curtail free speech because the freedom extends the right to say unproductive and unhelpful stuff.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2015, 01:39:52 pm by Magix »

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #284 on: January 14, 2015, 01:44:07 pm »

what is it designed to do then?



I don't know because I haven't seen the comments, but in a way it doesn't matter. It's not what they are "designed" to do that counts, but what they are "empowered" to do. And I imagine that no comment, no matter how insulting, actually has the power to make me, or anyone else, shut up. Still less can it extinguish a comment I've already made. And so freedom of speech does prevail. 
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Offline vicgill

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #285 on: January 14, 2015, 02:35:40 pm »
I don't know because I haven't seen the comments, but in a way it doesn't matter. It's not what they are "designed" to do that counts, but what they are "empowered" to do. And I imagine that no comment, no matter how insulting, actually has the power to make me, or anyone else, shut up. Still less can it extinguish a comment I've already made. And so freedom of speech does prevail. 


Not in RAWK it doesn't, yes it can extinguish a comment, especially here in RAWK when the mods delete them.

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #286 on: January 14, 2015, 02:44:59 pm »
When RAWK is moderated, there is no freedom of speech issue. The poster concerned has thousands of other avenues to post their views, and are in no way prohibited by RAWK from doing so.

RAWK could be an unmoderated site where anything goes, but that is not what RAWK does. There are standards about not abusing other posters and respecting the club's staff that we expect posters to adhere to.

In a RAWK context it is often a tricky decision as to whether to remove a controversial comment and the storm that follows it. Generally if it is off topic, it will go. If it disrespects a player / the manager it will go. If it is inane it will go. Leaving aside the obvious cases above, it is then a value judgement as to whether the poster is trolling. 

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #287 on: January 14, 2015, 03:03:48 pm »

Not in RAWK it doesn't, yes it can extinguish a comment, especially here in RAWK when the mods delete them.



I was talking specifically about the ordinary poster's power to shut me up Vic, not the mods' - as I think Jockey was too.
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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #288 on: January 14, 2015, 03:57:29 pm »
.
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Offline B0151?

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #289 on: January 14, 2015, 05:13:28 pm »
What about Anelka's mate being arrested then?

Dieudonné arrested over Facebook post on Paris gunman

French comedian accused of justifying terrorism after linking attacker to tribute slogan by writing ‘I feel like Charlie Coulibaly’
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/14/dieudonne-arrest-facebook-post-charlie-coulibaly-paris-gunman

A massive prick, no doubt, but do you folks think he's crossed a line of what freedom of speech should allow?

(Apologies if this has been discussed, had a skim)

Offline vicgill

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #290 on: January 14, 2015, 05:56:52 pm »
I was talking specifically about the ordinary poster's power to shut me up Vic, not the mods' - as I think Jockey was too.

OK mate my apologies, bit of advice, don't grow old
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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #291 on: January 14, 2015, 05:58:29 pm »
What about Anelka's mate being arrested then?

Dieudonné arrested over Facebook post on Paris gunman

French comedian accused of justifying terrorism after linking attacker to tribute slogan by writing ‘I feel like Charlie Coulibaly’
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/14/dieudonne-arrest-facebook-post-charlie-coulibaly-paris-gunman

A massive prick, no doubt, but do you folks think he's crossed a line of what freedom of speech should allow?

Not familiar with French law on the matter but no, I think he should be able to sympathise with anyone he wants.

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #292 on: January 14, 2015, 06:17:25 pm »
no.
read the rodgers thread and when someone questions rodgers some people jump in and effectively rubbish their opinion..with nothing more than insults.

nothing to do with censorship.

its person trying to stop freedom of speech.

How does that affect anything? The only people who can mute anyone are the moderators.
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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #293 on: January 14, 2015, 06:19:26 pm »
Over 5 million copies! How much must that make them!

I smell a conspiracy. All for the money this and a Tenner says Mossad are in there somewhere?
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #294 on: January 14, 2015, 06:26:00 pm »
What about Anelka's mate being arrested then?

Dieudonné arrested over Facebook post on Paris gunman

French comedian accused of justifying terrorism after linking attacker to tribute slogan by writing ‘I feel like Charlie Coulibaly’
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/14/dieudonne-arrest-facebook-post-charlie-coulibaly-paris-gunman

A massive prick, no doubt, but do you folks think he's crossed a line of what freedom of speech should allow?

(Apologies if this has been discussed, had a skim)

French legal process is completely different from ours. Being arrested doesn't mean he's been charged, and he certainly hasn't been convicted or sentenced for what he may or may not have said on Facebook.
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Offline bigbonedrawky

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #295 on: January 14, 2015, 06:42:00 pm »
Over 5 million copies! How much must that make them!

I smell a conspiracy. All for the money this and a Tenner says Mossad are in there somewhere?
Now I freely admit I am pulling stats out of my arse here  :) but Id bet 99 times out of a 100. That people who say things like this are on a bit of a wind up, they don't really believe this its either said in jest or out of sarcasm.
Now people often ask where do conspiracy theories come from and how and why do they take root ?
The answer is The 99%

Love the name change btw  :)

Offline CHOPPER

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #296 on: January 14, 2015, 06:58:36 pm »
Now I freely admit I am pulling stats out of my arse here  :) but Id bet 99 times out of a 100. That people who say things like this are on a bit of a wind up, they don't really believe this its either said in jest or out of sarcasm.
Now people often ask where do conspiracy theories come from and how and why do they take root ?
The answer is The 99%

Love the name change btw  :)
Mate, am like serious like Bamber Gascoigne serious.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #297 on: January 14, 2015, 06:58:45 pm »
Now I freely admit I am pulling stats out of my arse here  :) but Id bet 99 times out of a 100 that people who say things like this are on a bit of a wind up, they don't really believe this its either said in jest or out of sarcasm.
Now people often ask where do conspiracy theories come from and how and why do they take root ?
The answer is The 99%

Love the name change btw  :)

I don't understand.

*edit - or rather, I think I do but hope I don't.
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Offline CHOPPER

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #298 on: January 14, 2015, 07:06:53 pm »
I don't understand.

*edit - or rather, I think I do but hope I don't.
Yes, it is I! After all this time I must throw this facade away and release my true identity for I am CAPTAIN CONSPIRACY

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I leave you now to fight common sense throughout the cosmos!........... To Indignity, and beyond!
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Offline Robinred

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #299 on: January 14, 2015, 07:13:49 pm »
Yes, it is I! After all this time I must throw this facade away and release my true identity for I am CAPTAIN CONSPIRACY

Scaling rational thought with one single guess, fighting logical reasoning with my X-ray mind conspiracy meld.


I leave you now to fight common sense throughout the cosmos!........... To Indignity, and beyond!

 ;D ;D
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Offline MichaelA

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #300 on: January 14, 2015, 07:19:46 pm »
Allowing a discussion about free speech is not any kind of validation of the concept of free speech on RAWK. ;)

Offline B0151?

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #301 on: January 14, 2015, 07:23:13 pm »
French legal process is completely different from ours. Being arrested doesn't mean he's been charged, and he certainly hasn't been convicted or sentenced for what he may or may not have said on Facebook.

The legal process may be - but in terms of the 'freedom of speech' debate, I was interested to know where people stood on comments like it. Whether it is legal or illegal to say stuff like that in France is exactly the point.

I'm definitely not trying to make a point with it - it just seemed more relevant than the discussion on Balotelli and RAWK moderation.

It's hard to imagine he'll be charged for a controversial but relatively tame (I think I'm slow because I don't fully understand what he was trying to say) comment like that.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2015, 10:52:52 pm by Bakez0151 »

Offline bigbonedrawky

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #302 on: January 14, 2015, 07:29:54 pm »
I don't understand.

*edit - or rather, I think I do but hope I don't.

 When I read of any "conspiracy theories" The majority of the time the people who are saying it don't really believe it. I think Kay is in the 99%
because I thought Kay was having a laugh.  But I'm sure somewhere in the world part of the 1 % are saying the exact same thing or something very like it, now this 1% either do believe it or they are maliciously spreading lies.

 
       

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #303 on: January 14, 2015, 08:34:00 pm »
Censorship!
:) :) :)
Yes, definitely censorship. anyway that sounds a lot better than admitting i made a cock up replying to the wrong post. :)
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Offline MichaelA

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #304 on: January 14, 2015, 10:30:03 pm »
Basically it boils down to this: here stands before me a Man Utd supporting woman, ginger haired, disabled, paranoid schizophrenic, homosexual of ethnic origin, and a citizen of my country. I can criticise this person for holding opposing views, such as supporting Man Utd. I could be incredibly rude about their beliefs if I so desired. What I cannot do is discriminate against that misguided Man Utd supporter because of the colour of her skin or her sexual orientation, the tragedy of her hair colour, nor indeed because she has been diagnosed with mental health issues. To date, being a Man Utd fan has not been diagnosed as a recognised psychosis, but it might happen one day. Until then, fire at will, because she's fair game.

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #305 on: January 14, 2015, 10:33:10 pm »
What I cannot do is discriminate against that misguided Man Utd supporter because of the colour of her skin or her sexual orientation, the tragedy of her hair colour, nor indeed because she has been diagnosed with mental health issues.

In provision of services? Sure. But in your private capacity, you can be rude to them, call them names, take the piss. That may get you thrown out of a pub or restaurant or off a forum but it shouldn't be criminal.

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #306 on: January 14, 2015, 10:40:13 pm »
In provision of services? Sure. But in your private capacity, you can be rude to them, call them names, take the piss. That may get you thrown out of a pub or restaurant or off a forum but it shouldn't be criminal.

Ah, I've messed up. I wrote something longer, but only posted this paragraph. Here's the other bit for the context, which related to 'harm'.

Any open society or section of an open society that feels secure about the social and cultural environment that it has constructed ought to be capable of accepting examination, criticism, and satire. It's the job of the open society and it's citizens to maintain the social environment that has been constructed, whilst remaining sensitive to the needs of that society.

Religion is one of those social constructs, and in an open society it should be open to hostile scrutiny, up to and including the kind of offence caused by Charlie Hebdo. That's free speech, that what you are born or raised into, in Western style democracies and in many other societies, cultures and nations around the world. In an open society, free speech still does not allow for discriminatory activity or harm based upon or caused as a consequence of race or physical traits, biology, etc. That protection is invariably built into legislation.

Offline Broad Spectrum

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #307 on: January 14, 2015, 10:47:35 pm »
Angry, white and proud, programme right now on channel 4. What is this poison that has riddled the UK...? I despair at both sides, the so called Muslim extremists, and the white nationalists who feel they're defending democracy through bigoted, drunken violence.

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #308 on: January 14, 2015, 10:50:14 pm »
In this thread (I think) and certainly in the Hebdo thread, people have been complaining about the supposed double standards employed by the magazine in their respective treatments of Muslims and Jews. I just had an interesting conversation about it on another internet thingy. My view is that they should be allowed post anti Semitic stuff, if that's what they want and if some gang of nutters in Munich want to publish a racist Nazi mag, they should be allowed. At some point you have to not only trust that we have made the correct decision on freedom of speech, we also have to trust that most people will agree, and demonstrate their agreement by their utter disregard of such horrible shit.

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #309 on: January 14, 2015, 10:53:37 pm »
I suspected as much. Ever since you told me how you created the destruction of the Twin Towers in a CIA film studio.
Oh that was Alan ? Great direction that was. Loved the cinematography and the sheer drama of it all.
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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #310 on: January 14, 2015, 11:00:32 pm »
In this thread (I think) and certainly in the Hebdo thread, people have been complaining about the supposed double standards employed by the magazine in their respective treatments of Muslims and Jews. I just had an interesting conversation about it on another internet thingy. My view is that they should be allowed post anti Semitic stuff, if that's what they want and if some gang of nutters in Munich want to publish a racist Nazi mag, they should be allowed. At some point you have to not only trust that we have made the correct decision on freedom of speech, we also have to trust that most people will agree, and demonstrate their agreement by their utter disregard of such horrible shit.

Same here. That French rapper dude should be free to say what he wants and sympathise with whoever. But it's all damned if they do, damned if they don't for the French authorities. If they didn't arrest the guy, the Jewish community would be up in arms about the anti-semitism which is sort of relevant given how many French jewish people have been leaving France recently. In any case, there is still the distinction between ideas and people and while Charlie Hebdo generally lampooned religious ideas, this guy has glorified the death of a group of people which could be construed as hate speech I guess. I don't know much about French law.
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Offline macca888

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #311 on: January 14, 2015, 11:28:45 pm »
Basically it boils down to this: here stands before me a Man Utd supporting woman, ginger haired, disabled, paranoid schizophrenic, homosexual of ethnic origin, and a citizen of my country. I can criticise this person for holding opposing views, such as supporting Man Utd. I could be incredibly rude about their beliefs if I so desired. What I cannot do is discriminate against that misguided Man Utd supporter because of the colour of her skin or her sexual orientation, the tragedy of her hair colour, nor indeed because she has been diagnosed with mental health issues. To date, being a Man Utd fan has not been diagnosed as a recognised psychosis, but it might happen one day. Until then, fire at will, because she's fair game.


But what if she was boss eyed too?
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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #312 on: January 14, 2015, 11:34:48 pm »

But what if she was boss eyed too?

No way. I'm not spending my life looking over my shoulder.

Offline macca888

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #313 on: January 15, 2015, 12:15:10 am »
No way. I'm not spending my life looking over my shoulder.


:wellin    Bravo, sir!
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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #314 on: January 15, 2015, 10:41:30 am »
Why Raif Badawi has to be flogged a thousand times in Saudi Arabia.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/14/-sp-saudi-blogger-extracts-raif-badawi
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #315 on: January 15, 2015, 10:41:31 am »
This is interesting.


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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #316 on: January 15, 2015, 11:15:10 am »
Problem with it is, is that religious types have their own special category that they created themselves!
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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #317 on: January 15, 2015, 12:51:11 pm »
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/01/15/uk-france-shooting-pope-idUKKBN0KO16Q20150115?rpc=401

After Paris attacks, Pope speaks out against insulting religions


(Reuters) - Pope Francis, speaking of last week's deadly attacks by Islamist militants in Paris, has defended freedom of expression, but said it was wrong to provoke others by insulting their religion and that one could "expect" a reaction to such abuse.

"You can't provoke, you can't insult the faith of others, you can't make fun of faith," he told reporters on Thursday, aboard a plane taking him from Sri Lanka to the Philippines to start the second leg off his Asian tour.

Francis, who has condemned the Paris attacks, was asked about the relationship between freedom of religion and freedom of expression.

"I think both freedom of religion and freedom of expression are both fundamental human rights," he said, adding that he was talking specifically about the Paris killings.

"Everyone has not only the freedom and the right but the obligation to say what he thinks for the common good ... we have the right to have this freedom openly without offending," he said.

To illustrate his point, he turned to an aide and said: "It is true that you must not react violently, but although we are good friends if (he) says a curse word against my mother, he can expect a punch, it's normal.

"You can't make a toy out of the religions of others," he added. "These people provoke and then (something can happen). In freedom of expression there are limits."

Seventeen people, including journalists and police, were killed in three days of violence that began with a shooting attack on the political weekly Charlie Hebdo, known for its satirical attacks on Islam and other religions.

Referring to past religious wars, such as the Crusades sanctioned by the Catholic Church against Islam, the Pope said:

"Let's consider our own history. How many wars of religion have we had? Even we were sinners but you can't kill in the name of God. That is an aberration."

The Pope was also asked if he felt vulnerable to an assassination attempt or an attack by Islamic extremists.

Earlier this week, the Vatican denied Italian newspaper reports that U.S. and Israeli intelligence officials had informed the Vatican that there could be an imminent attack by Islamist militants.

Francis said he was more worried about others - rather than himself - being hurt in an eventual attack and that he was confident about security measures in the Vatican and during his trips.

"I am in God's hands," he said, joking about having asked God to spare him a painful death.

"Am I afraid? You know that I have a defect, a nice of dose of being careless. If anything should happen to me, I have told the Lord, I ask you only to give me the grace that it doesn't hurt because I am not courageous when confronted with pain. I am very timid," he said.
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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #318 on: January 15, 2015, 01:47:59 pm »
But what is insulting to a faith? A rational, non-confrontational challenge to the central tenets of a faith could be views as insulting to the faith.  It is platitudes, but is little use for defining where to draw the line between honest intellectual inquiry and insults.

The pope may just have a vested interest in where that line is drawn.

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Re: Freedom of speech
« Reply #319 on: January 15, 2015, 01:50:07 pm »
So Frank from the "Let's Rape Kids and Cover It Up" Club thinks I can't take the piss out of him?