Topic: General Political discussion with kesey-style vibes & tantric breathing stuff...

[Zeb]

Welfare changes and climate change will be debated, hopefully something constructive comes out of that.

No idea why they prioritised Palestine, I think the issue would be best avoided, particularly given the latest anti-semitism scandals. Maybe they felt it was important to show that Labour can still debate the issue in a proper way. Seems risky, though.

Brexit was important. 9 out of 10 of us may be on the same page, but the leadership are way off, as McDonnell demonstrated this morning. It should be made clear how the members feel, not only to the leadership, but also to further embolden the pro-EU MPs. Should Labour come to power, Corbyn must be made aware that he won't have the support of enough Labour MPs to push any kind of Brexit through parliament, and relying on Tories for support would pretty much end his political career. That's why the People's Vote went with the motion last night, priority must be getting Labour into power, because there would then be more than enough Labour MPs in parliament to prevent Brexit one way or another.

Unfortunately, despite everyone blaming Labour for Brexit, Labour can neither prevent Brexit nor secure a second referendum until they're actually in power.

Agree with a lot of what you say there. re. Palestine: It takes just one stupid delegate to ignite a shitstorm which was always totally avoidable. So, yeah. I just don't see what's there for debate? Netanyahu's a knob? Motion passed. Know what I mean? 

I missed welfare changes and climate change being up there for debate, but great if they are. Actually really want the party to be thinking about the complexity of the issues around rolling back universal credit and having a system which is fit for purpose. Next year it's going to clobber lots of people hard so being ahead of that would seem wise.

Disagree with you a bit on that last sentence there though. Labour's power to prevent and steer is enormous right now. They can't do it alone, no. To insist that would be wrong. But they can provide the bridge to Tory rebels. Which is what we'd normally expect the opposition party to do. Just as we'd expect them to always be looking for a way to bring down the government.

Past couple of weekends have been weird for me. Been around people protesting who, a couple of years back, would never have dreamed of going on a demo. From comfortably middle class 50 somethings and their EU flags marching around to elderly Jewish people standing for a couple of hours as it pissed down with rain on them. Strange times to try and hold a coalition together by avoiding taking as firm a line as you can on issues.

[BoRed]

Disagree with you a bit on that last sentence there though. Labour's power to prevent and steer is enormous right now. They can't do it alone, no. To insist that would be wrong. But they can provide the bridge to Tory rebels. Which is what we'd normally expect the opposition party to do. Just as we'd expect them to always be looking for a way to bring down the government.

But Labour have done that, only for the supposed Tory rebels to back down at the last moment every time.

It's safe to say now that Labour (with the exception of a few weirdos) will vote against any Brexit deal the government comes up with, and, obviously, against a no deal Brexit. But the time is running out for the Tory rebels to do their bit.

[Zeb]

But Labour have done that, only for the supposed Tory rebels to back down at the last moment every time.

It's safe to say now that Labour (with the exception of a few weirdos) will vote against any Brexit deal the government comes up with, and, obviously, against a no deal Brexit. But the time is running out for the Tory rebels to do their bit.

For sure, not holding Labour accountable for anything but their votes and their positions. Tory rebels are treading a fine line just now though, aren't they? Push too hard and they bring down May and get someone like Gove or Javid or Johnson as leader in while negotiations are still ongoing. Grieve did manage to ensure a 'meaningful vote' is there (subject to Bercow's approval), so there is that.

From what is there so far, I don't see how Labour can vote for anything less than a 'Norway' style deal. Which is where May is going to have to shift to if she wants anything. So the thing which is niggling at me is that final vote where Labour would be faced with the choice between supporting May (and getting a deal) or force her out and hope for an election. I wonder whether Keir's quietly thinking that will force May to withdraw Article 50 as she falls on her sword. But consequences of it could equally be ensuring we crash out with no deal. Just weird polarised times for decisions which really need sensible and rational collegiate decisions, and possibly compromises.

edit: and conscious this isn't Brexit thread, so last from me on that.

[filopastry]

But Labour have done that, only for the supposed Tory rebels to back down at the last moment every time.

It's safe to say now that Labour (with the exception of a few weirdos) will vote against any Brexit deal the government comes up with, and, obviously, against a no deal Brexit. But the time is running out for the Tory rebels to do their bit.

Labour will vote against everything and hope to force a GE (which won't happen) the Tories will eventually have to form some kind of a compromise to unite their party, as they won't benefit from getting votes from elsewhere for any options, realistically the "moderates" are a lot more likely to"compromise" than the ERG or even worse the DUP if it comes to saving the party, so we will be left with the hardest of Brexits if Labour is just going to check out of the debate and hope it can cynically blame everyone else for what happens.

[BoRed]

Labour will vote against everything and hope to force a GE (which won't happen) the Tories will eventually have to form some kind of a compromise to unite their party, as they won't benefit from getting votes from elsewhere for any options, realistically the "moderates" are a lot more likely to"compromise" than the ERG or even worse the DUP if it comes to saving the party, so we will be left with the hardest of Brexits if Labour is just going to check out of the debate and hope it can cynically blame everyone else for what happens.

Given the bolded part above, what can Labour do other than "vote against everything"? The Tories are in power, as long as they stick together, they can push through whatever they want.

[filopastry]

Given the bolded part above, what can Labour do other than "vote against everything"? The Tories are in power, as long as they stick together, they can push through whatever they want.

Push for a second ref and hope to give the more sane Tories a way out once this becomes logjammed in parliament.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

https://twitter.com/jamin2g/status/1044164607840063488?s=21
Superb

[Lush is the best medicine...]

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1044190792183681024?s=21

This worked great for Chavez in the pdvsa

[Alan_X]

Your usage of "more important" suggests you're missing the point of these votes. These are issues for debate at a Labour conference. Pretty much everyone within Labour is on the same page when it comes to the NHS or local government funding. Of course these issues are more important than Palestine, but they're not necessarily more appropriate for debate, since there's not much to debate there.

What is there to debate on Palestine exactly? I’d say it’s pretty obvious what those wanting to ‘debate’ it feel. Remind me what the conference is for?

[Alan_X]

Welfare changes and climate change will be debated, hopefully something constructive comes out of that.

No idea why they prioritised Palestine, I think the issue would be best avoided, particularly given the latest anti-semitism scandals. Maybe they felt it was important to show that Labour can still debate the issue in a proper way. Seems risky, though.

Brexit was important. 9 out of 10 of us may be on the same page, but the leadership are way off, as McDonnell demonstrated this morning. It should be made clear how the members feel, not only to the leadership, but also to further embolden the pro-EU MPs. Should Labour come to power, Corbyn must be made aware that he won't have the support of enough Labour MPs to push any kind of Brexit through parliament, and relying on Tories for support would pretty much end his political career. That's why the People's Vote went with the motion last night, priority must be getting Labour into power, because there would then be more than enough Labour MPs in parliament to prevent Brexit one way or another.

Unfortunately, despite everyone blaming Labour for Brexit, Labour can neither prevent Brexit nor secure a second referendum until they're actually in power.

I’m not blaming Labour for Brexit. I blame Corbyn for not doing enough during the referendum but they could have been campaigning for a remain option for two years now and if they actually tried there’s every chance they could have forced the issue over a second referendum.

The irony is that a second referendum is probably the best chance of getting to a general election. Unless I’ve misunderstood it, the current strategy is to persuade enough Remain Tories to force an election so that Corbyn and McDonnell can negotiate a left wing Brexit.

As the opposition they can’t make policies. What they can do is oppose and campaign.

What we have is hand-wringing from Labour figures who want to Leave blaming everyone and everything for their failure to follow the wishes of the vast majority of Labour voters (and soon to be ex-voters).

[CornerFlag]

Latest opinion poll via Opinium:



LAB-S&D: 39% (+1)
CON-ECR: 37% (-2)
LDEM-ALDE: 9% (+2)
UKIP-EFDD: 8% (+2)
SNP-G/EFA: 4%
GREENS-G/EFA: 2% (-1)
PC-G/EFA: 1%

Does a rise in UKIP politics help a Labour rise in the polls then?  I know the majority of Kippers are from that side of the spectrum but not all.

[TepidT2O]

Margin of error movements.. none significant

[Alan_X]

Latest opinion poll via Opinium:



LAB-S&D: 39% (+1)
CON-ECR: 37% (-2)
LDEM-ALDE: 9% (+2)
UKIP-EFDD: 8% (+2)
SNP-G/EFA: 4%
GREENS-G/EFA: 2% (-1)
PC-G/EFA: 1%

Does a rise in UKIP politics help a Labour rise in the polls then?  I know the majority of Kippers are from that side of the spectrum but not all.

Possibly the worst Tory government ever, split over Brexit and Labour are barely ahead in the polls.

[Circa1892]

So - latest genius action from Milne and co.

"Let's create a second Deputy Leader position and make it just for women to get rid of Tom Watson's influence and pretend we're all about equality"
"Cool, Tom will hate that."

*Tom Watson backs the plan, Milne and co realise that under the rules it'd have to be someone MPs could tolerate, so it'd be someone like Thornberry or Rayner or Nandy, who aren't actually as Momentum as they pretend*

*Leaders Office backs the plan, abandons the plan to have a new Deputy Leader*

Absolutely comical.

[Zeb]

So - latest genius action from Milne and co.

"Let's create a second Deputy Leader position and make it just for women to get rid of Tom Watson's influence and pretend we're all about equality"
"Cool, Tom will hate that."

*Tom Watson backs the plan, Milne and co realise that under the rules it'd have to be someone MPs could tolerate, so it'd be someone like Thornberry or Rayner or Nandy, who aren't actually as Momentum as they pretend*

*Leaders Office backs the plan, abandons the plan to have a new Deputy Leader*

Absolutely comical.

Jess Phillips is, rightly, spitting feathers about 'woke men' trying to use women as props for their own power plays. Think Milne may want to keep out of the way for a while.

"Renationalise feminism!" - Jess Philips tonight on twitter.

[idontknow]

I'm sure I said this a few years ago where politics seemed to have gone off the rails a bit. There were quite a few dodgy things going on and it all seemed a little... off.

Well. Here we are just a few years later and it looks like World Politics has turned into SOAP (For our younger viewers, a piss-take on soap operas of the time with a cracking intro showing the absurdity of it all).

We have Labour who are more left now than ever, but within that left 'bit' we have people who are madly left, really left, fairly left, not sure what left is any more getting into arguments with people in the Labour Party who are far-right while the centrists look around in bewilderment. We've got people on the right siding with leftist and we've got people on the left siding with the far-right parties.

We've got new far-right parties that got swelled with the left and the right and anyone that just wanted to join in, that got pretty much disbanded when everyone got what they wanted. Except no one was really sure exactly what it was they wanted and now most of us aren't even sure what we didn't want.

We've got politicians lying to the media, the media lying to the public, the owners of mass media stirring it up and pushing an agenda and then we've got foreign powers making and breaking deals, starting trade wars, gaining allies, gaining enemies and generally fucking about.

We've got leaders of nations all over the place that seem to want something different probably getting machinated by shadowy domestic and commercial powers with all the money and, it seems, that for these people - there is never enough, but what they are sure about is that people working for them don't particularly deserve any of it.

You've got sick people in wheel chairs getting told to walk by DWP employees who seem to think they are Jesus and you've got terminally ill patients getting told to "Bloody well get off their fat backsides, stop whining and stop sponging and get to fucking work". Shortly before they die.

We've got Libraries, Fire Stations, Police Stations, Emergency Wards getting shut down. We've got social and Public services going down the pan and yet we're told by Billionaire dickheads via their editors that everything is better today than it's ever been and it's believed by people that presumably don't register the real world. We then get people saying how marvellous it will be to get 'back to the days of Downtown Abbey' because look how marvellous it all was then. Rees-Mogg and his ilk think that a little starvation is just the trick to make people 'know their place'.

We've got characters like Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson and Donald Trump who you can't even make fun of - Spitting Image would have been scratching their heads and then just replaying actual scenes that really happened. Gone are the days when you can make things up.

You've got actors and singers with more political powers than politicians, who get to decide who can and cannot speak on given issues and then you've got the world heating up while the equvalent of Sadams mate stand there waving there arms saying 'Nothing to see here' - just like the lad in Police Story while the firework factory goes to hell behind him.

You've got left fighting right, left fighting left, right fighting right, people ignoring the liberals who used to be mates with the right. You've got billionaires telling the poor how things are how to vote - which they do. You've got Remain fighting Leave. You've got the North fighting the South. You've got Cities fighting other Cities. You've got the Rural Areas fighting with the Urban areas. You've got the rich fighting the poor. You've got the old fighting the young. You've got religions and none religions fighting with each other and you've got anger and resentment everywhere.

Welcome to Tory world 2018.

That was a great starting post, it was about a large world and the divisions within it, and putting forward questions about who, what, why creates those divisions.
To me, the post implied an idea that we are all part of this world, and was asking for possible solutions as to how we could all share it together.
The post pointed out obvious areas to consider, how everything becomes us versus another separate us, which we generally call them, and had hope in it.

So thank you Andy

But then this whole thread happened.

[Trim0582]

"Renationalise feminism!" - Jess Philips tonight on twitter.

And I am out.

Third wave feminism is truly awful, it cares nothing for a majority of woman, it is a political vehicle use by a very few journalists and fewer politicians, to score easy points without evidence or fear of recourse. Only 7% of UK woman actually identify with this marginal, special interest group.

It ignores empirical evidence and favours instead, false and anecdotal explanations for almost any issue.

Bring back second wave feminism.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

https://twitter.com/anoosh_c/status/1044670010566815744?s=21

Another idiot

Video here

https://twitter.com/rosskempsell/status/1044814788612820992?s=21

[Lush is the best medicine...]

And look what little Owen has tweeted

https://twitter.com/owenjones84/status/1044902556567252992?s=21

And some gaslighting here from burgon

https://twitter.com/rosskempsell/status/1044874939139018752?s=21

[Trim0582]

And look what little Owen has tweeted

https://twitter.com/owenjones84/status/1044902556567252992?s=21

And some gaslighting here from burgon

https://twitter.com/rosskempsell/status/1044874939139018752?s=21

And people think leave voters were harking back to the glory days.

Ridiculous that a serious MP can suggest a general strike in 2018.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

And people think leave voters were harking back to the glory days.

To be fair quite a few fall into both groups

Ridiculous that a serious MP can suggest a general strike in 2018.

not if they’re someone who goes to events with Williamson and burgon

[Trim0582]

To be fair quite a few fall into both groupsnot if they’re someone who goes to events with Williamson and burgon

We are all complicit in this mess, we are none of us, without some small share of blame. We no longer talk, we fire barrage after barrage at the right and they fire back.

We let our political institutions be overrun by ideologues, we let tribalism outweigh reason, we scorn, we deride and we mock any difference of opinion. Instead of bridging the gaps of our differences, we dig and prob and pick, maliciously and masocistically until they are chasms, unreachable to one another and uninterested.

It is said a nation is granted the politicians it deserves, I think it is correct.

Our politics and politicians are in the gutter, it will likely not be long before the rest of us join them.

We are not enemies, but friends, we must not be enemies, though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection...  How troublingly relevant, perhaps more so now than in 1861, sadly, I see no better angles of our nature, it seems they have all long flown.

[Robinred]

We are all complicit in this mess, we are none of us, without some small share of blame. We no longer talk, we fire barrage after barrage at the right and they fire back.

We let our political institutions be overrun by ideologues, we let tribalism outweigh reason, we scorn, we deride and we mock any difference of opinion. Instead of bridging the gaps of our differences, we dig and prob and pick, maliciously and masocistically until they are chasms, unreachable to one another and uninterested.

It is said a nation is granted the politicians it deserves, I think it is correct.

Our politics and politicians are in the gutter, it will likely not be long before the rest of us join them.

We are not enemies, but friends, we must not be enemies though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection...  How troublingly relevant, perhaps more so now than in 1861, sadly, I see no better angles of our nature, it seems they have all long flown.

I like your post, and agree that the divisions we are witnessing are damaging, depressing and ultimately fruitless.

But inspired leadership - the rare kind that creates unity - is a rare beast in today’s political world, and it’s something that’s desperately needed.

Cameron started this mess. Boris, by all accounts flipped at the last minute because he couldn’t bear to side with a lifelong adversary. Did we all get what we deserved with those two? or with Corbyn and McDonnell?

It’s chicken and egg territory...

[Trim0582]

I like your post, and agree that the divisions we are witnessing are damaging, depressing and ultimately fruitless.

But inspired leadership - the rare kind that creates unity - is a rare beast in today’s political world, and it’s something that’s desperately needed.

Cameron started this mess. Boris, by all accounts flipped at the last minute because he couldn’t bear to side with a lifelong adversary. Did we all get what we deserved with those two? or with Corbyn and McDonnell?

It’s chicken and egg territory...

I do wonder that too, I think perhaps I could have been better. Did I care enough, or do enough as these snake oil salesmen moved into our highest institutions and offices.

Our disharmony is the meat and drink that feeds the politics and politicians of our time.

A supposedly serious MP has called for a general strike and instead of derision there was applause. As long as politicians can play to the ideologues in the cheap seats they will and the political climate as it stands is tuned for that.

If we were better, they would need to be better.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

We are all complicit in this mess, we are none of us, without some small share of blame. We no longer talk, we fire barrage after barrage at the right and they fire back.

I'm really not sure what can be said or done when people refuse to listen to experts.

[Trim0582]

I'm really not sure what can be said or done when people refuse to listen to experts.

Corbyn, McDonnell, Rees-Moog, Bojo et al are not a result of ignoring experts, they may be symptomatic.
Personality above substance, ideology above reality, leads to all of the above, including ignoring experts. The first step down this dark path, is to stop seeing people in any way other than, right, left, remain, leave, marxist, fascist, racist.

The political problem is bigger than Brexit and I find that truly concerning.

[kavah]

Another article, in the NY Times in their series about  austerity in the UK (focussing on Morecambe), and the shocking rise in malnutrition in children. And it's interesting how Blair's government made a real impact on reducing poverty, now reversed and smashed by the Welfare Reform Act and the Tories abandoning targets to reduce child poverty.
[school] staff noticed an increasing number of youngsters returning undernourished after spending school breaks [holidays] at home.

local Tory MP David Morris said;  'child poverty had fallen in his constituency, and blamed “left-wing political activists” for any suggestion to the contrary'

But the child poverty rate in Morecambe  rose to 25.9 percent from 2013 to 2017, up from 24.2 percent, according to research by the Center for Research in Social Policy at Loughborough University.


https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/26/world/europe/uk-austerity-child-poverty.html?rref=collection%2Fsectioncollection%2Fworld&action=click&contentCollection=world&region=rank&module=package&version=highlights&contentPlacement=1&pgtype=sectionfront

[Trump's tiny tiny hands]

The TV broadcast Labour just put out is great. It really is. And it tears at me that Labour have some great ideas and potential policies but I simply no longer trust the people in charge to implement them.

[Alan574]

Lovely man!

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/tory-councillor-bob-frost-claims-13317963

[So… Howard Philips]

Lovely man!

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/tory-councillor-bob-frost-claims-13317963

I see the Mirror's website is as bad as the Echo's, no surprise as they are the same group.

[Trada]

Hope this is true a couple of people on Twitter have said that the Tories are going to release a interactive Conference app so you can say what you thing about the speeches live.

Im sure that will go very well.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/labour-party-conference-2018

[kavah]

Hope this is true a couple of people on Twitter have said that the Tories are going to release a interactive Conference app so you can say what you thing about the speeches live.

Im sure that will go very well.

ha ha - that could be very funny

[kavah]

https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/labour-party-conference-2018

good article, thanks for posting.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

good article, thanks for posting.

the crazies have started a #boycotttheguardian hashtag, the paper that employed seamus Milne to write his shit, the one that gives work to his cheerleaders

Sums who that piece is talking about, if those losers could see past their nose they’d knock that off but they can’t help themselves

[TepidT2O]

Crazy?

Derek Hatton has been allowed to rejoin the Labour Party..

That’s really crazy...

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Crazy?

Derek Hatton has been allowed to rejoin the Labour Party..

That’s really crazy...

not a shock with dawn butlers idiotic speech a few days ago and that zarb tool defending militant

[Circa1892]

Absolutely fuck them for that. Disgraceful. It’ll be Galloway next. What a waste of time, effort and money any contribution I’ve ever made to this gutter party in the past has been.

[TepidT2O]

Absolutely fuck them for that. Disgraceful. It’ll be Galloway next. What a waste of time, effort and money any contribution I’ve ever made to this gutter party in the past has been.

Galloway has actively stood against labour MPs and made disgraceful personal slurs against them.  He may be more difficult for them to accept back.

[Circa1892]

Galloway has actively stood against labour MPs and made disgraceful personal slurs against them.  He may be more difficult for them to accept back.

I genuinely think the ship has sailed on anyone doing anything about anything like this. Most of Corbyn's office would take Galloway being readmitted and Blair expelled over winning a GE any day of the week.