Author Topic: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion (*)  (Read 177199 times)

Offline Fat Scouser

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #40 on: October 26, 2014, 11:27:20 am »
Actually mate, you can go to jail for saying anything deemed anti-semite. But then, on the other hand, we've got the black card that kept OJ out of jail. As I said, there's more sense to be had from talking to rattling drunks. So I'm off the alehouse to talk with a few middle aged, racist, anti immigrant, anti-semite white men or whatever they call them nowadays. I've got a fiver. Hopefully, there's a few others that can still afford to go the pub on a Sunday after a weeks work
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Offline Fat Scouser

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #41 on: October 26, 2014, 06:50:45 pm »
Big Sham's took West m to 4th
"A peasant you are. A peasant you will remain. And we shall use all our wealth and power, to make your lot even worse and keep you exactly where you are, Bondage!"    The Boy King, Richard II, after  putting down the The Peasants Revolt in 1381.

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Offline Fat Scouser

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #42 on: October 26, 2014, 07:34:46 pm »
They just handed the keys to Camp Behastian over. I wonder what will happen
"A peasant you are. A peasant you will remain. And we shall use all our wealth and power, to make your lot even worse and keep you exactly where you are, Bondage!"    The Boy King, Richard II, after  putting down the The Peasants Revolt in 1381.

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Offline bigbonedrawky

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #43 on: October 26, 2014, 07:51:40 pm »
Your article fails to mention that he was in the process of throwing a molotov cocktail at oncoming traffic on a main highway, which makes a difference of course.

It also fails to mention that the Palestinian rioting was in response to a terrorist attack where an Arab man drove into and murdered a 3 month old baby girl (about a 3 minute drive from my house), who was also an American citizen. Wonder what American will do about that..?

You fail to mention how Israel closing the Dome of the Rock and denying access to one of their Holy sites sparked the recent rioting. You also fail to mention how Israel Stole and Ethnically Cleansed nearly a Thousand acres of land in the West Bank less than a week after the Gaza "truce".
But yes the little kid started it all when he threw a petrol bomb which left the Hero IDF Warrior no choice but to kill him.
Are the brave IDF going to Bulldoze the "Terrorist's" family home now  ?

What do you think of those who threw petrol bombs in Toxteth Brixton or Belfast ? Shoot them in the head ?

I think we're closer than you think mate!

Just saying that if the kid is in the process of throwing a molotov at people, how is that different to throwing a grenade or firing a gun? They are all lethal. I don't know where you live, but if you step outside, start rioting and chucking molotovs at the local police, they wouldn't shoot you dead?
No   
« Last Edit: October 26, 2014, 07:59:55 pm by yorkyrawky »

Offline bigbonedrawky

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #44 on: October 26, 2014, 07:55:20 pm »
They just handed the keys to Camp Behastian over. I wonder what will happen
Taliban will be in control within 6 months Rinse, Spin, Repeat.

Offline Fat Scouser

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #45 on: October 26, 2014, 08:06:12 pm »
#mate, I haven't been able to see a dentist in years. I got diagnosed with lymphoma in april. I'm still waiting on the result. I'I'm not at it.  I'm just saying how it is. I really sympathise with the Palestinians, but we're all getting it
"A peasant you are. A peasant you will remain. And we shall use all our wealth and power, to make your lot even worse and keep you exactly where you are, Bondage!"    The Boy King, Richard II, after  putting down the The Peasants Revolt in 1381.

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Offline Fat Scouser

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #46 on: October 26, 2014, 08:28:24 pm »
Sorry, my point being... 6 months is an aeful long time. i give them a week. Off subject, I know, so I'll stick by what I said... israel will not stop until it cantrols alll water in the Jordanbasin, It can't. I understand that, humans are cack
"A peasant you are. A peasant you will remain. And we shall use all our wealth and power, to make your lot even worse and keep you exactly where you are, Bondage!"    The Boy King, Richard II, after  putting down the The Peasants Revolt in 1381.

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Offline Jebediah

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #47 on: October 27, 2014, 07:26:40 am »
So you do or don't think shooting him dead was necessary?


If a 14 year old was standing on a bridge over the m62 and was about to throw a molotov cocktail down onto a car that your wife was driving with your kids in the backseats, would you hope the police would do whatever they could to prevent the 14 year old from throwing the molotov cocktail?

The Israeli army has extremely strict rules of engagement. Assuming they were followed (and remember the soldier would have had only a split second to decide what to do) then yes i think shooting him was necessary (of course we have no idea that the soldier tried to kill him).

What are your opinions on the thoughts of the former IDF soldier that I posted. I'd be interested to hear an Israeli's take on it.

I am sorry but as soon as people like Yorkyrawky get involved the discussion is heading nowhere and no good can possibly come of it. Some people are so willfully ignorant of the facts that they simply poison the thread.  If you want to discuss the occupation with me send me a PM.
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Offline Broad Spectrum

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #49 on: October 27, 2014, 10:52:00 am »
If a 14 year old was standing on a bridge over the m62 and was about to throw a molotov cocktail down onto a car that your wife was driving with your kids in the backseats, would you hope the police would do whatever they could to prevent the 14 year old from throwing the molotov cocktail?

Yes, I would hope they would try and stop him without killing him though. As the article mentioned rubber bullets were being used to quell riots in other parts of the West Bank, I don't see why the same couldn't have been done in this instance. I think it's sad to see a 14 year old with a petrol bomb in his hand and appreciate that it's not an easy job for the police to deal with but as long as Israel continue to be far too trigger happy you can be sure there's going to be a lot more 14 year olds with romanticised ideas of their cause lining up to do the same thing. Shooting dead every teen with a petrol bomb in NI would just ensure the problem continued down a never-ending road. There were petrol bombs thrown at the Greek derby the other day, I would have been equally appalled if the police had decided that live fire should be used in response. That's not to excuse the dickheads throwing them but a lethal reaction should be a last resort in my opinion.


The Israeli army has extremely strict rules of engagement. Assuming they were followed (and remember the soldier would have had only a split second to decide what to do) then yes i think shooting him was necessary (of course we have no idea that the soldier tried to kill him).


Maybe on paper. I personally get the impression that they are one of the most over the top reactionary forces on the planet. Again I acknowledge they don't have an easy task but you're a bit naive if you think bombing hospitals or kids playing football on the beach falls under a 'strict rules of engagement' category. Not to worry though, their victims luckily get an internal Israeli investigation launched into the circumstances of their death and this is continued until enough time has passed so that everything can be conveniently swept under the carpet. Perhaps I'm looking at the wrong news sources but I don't see much justice being brought upon the soldiers who commit these heinous crimes.



I am sorry but as soon as people like Yorkyrawky get involved the discussion is heading nowhere and no good can possibly come of it. Some people are so willfully ignorant of the facts that they simply poison the thread.  If you want to discuss the occupation with me send me a PM.

Oh come off it! He is entitled to post in this thread just like you and I am. Obviously there is history between you two but you could just simply ignore his posts in that case. Why would I PM you? you already know what I want to know. I know it's a difficult question for you to answer but I'm genuinely interested to see an Israeli's take on the views of that soldier(and the other 949 who have reached a similar conclusion). If you can't answer then so be it, please spare me the 'poison the thread' cop out shite though.
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Offline Jebediah

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #50 on: October 27, 2014, 11:43:31 am »


Oh come off it! He is entitled to post in this thread just like you and I am. Obviously there is history between you two but you could just simply ignore his posts in that case. Why would I PM you? you already know what I want to know. I know it's a difficult question for you to answer but I'm genuinely interested to see an Israeli's take on the views of that soldier(and the other 949 who have reached a similar conclusion). If you can't answer then so be it, please spare me the 'poison the thread' cop out shite though.

He is entitled to post in the thread and i am also entitled not to. It's not 'cop out shite' as i largely agree with the soldier. This thread will very quickly descend into the same arguments that every other thread does.

Oh and for the record i was talking about rules of engagement and use of lethal and non-lethal force when faced with rioting and rock throwing. Obviously which sites the air force does and doesn't bomb is totally different. I agree that the army inquiry will be shit (would other armies be any better?) but i think you are very naive if you think that this death is the major factor leading to more riots and terrorism. We should be talking about incitement and financing and also the power struggle between Hamas and Fatah in the West Bank.
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Offline Fat Scouser

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #51 on: October 27, 2014, 11:48:33 am »
Excuse my nonsense. I apologise. I was very very drunk last night
"A peasant you are. A peasant you will remain. And we shall use all our wealth and power, to make your lot even worse and keep you exactly where you are, Bondage!"    The Boy King, Richard II, after  putting down the The Peasants Revolt in 1381.

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« Last Edit: October 27, 2014, 04:59:11 pm by Broad Spectrum »

Offline CorKopite

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #53 on: October 27, 2014, 01:53:35 pm »
He is entitled to post in the thread and i am also entitled not to. It's not 'cop out shite' as i largely agree with the soldier.

Of course you are entitled to not post here but you did. Avoiding my question then because of the presence of another poster does seem like a cop out to me anyway. Interesting that you agree with most of what the soldier says though, I'm curious as to what percentage of Israeli society would agree with it. Sent the interview on to two Israeli friends of mine who I met while travelling. Both have served in the IDF, one felt the interview was spot on, the other felt it was complete rubbish so I'm curious as to how prevalent that view is amongst Israelis. If it is quite a common held view then I don't understand why something so backward and bigoted as that is accepted by the population. If you want the molotovs to stop, then changing the mentality of the armed forces towards that group of people would be a good place to start.



Oh and for the record i was talking about rules of engagement and use of lethal and non-lethal force when faced with rioting and rock throwing. Obviously which sites the air force does and doesn't bomb is totally different.

Fair enough, you'd be more clued up than me on that side of things as you live nearby to where these riots take place. I do find it baffling how/why the ground troops could have such strict rules of engagement though when other parts of the armed forces such as the air force have such an obvious disregard for civilian casualties. The regurgitated drivel from those giving the orders about how they take the utmost care to avoid innocents dying is pretty infuriating when you consider upwards of 70% of those killed during Operation Protective Edge were civilians. That interview with the soldier would go some way to explaining such a shocking figure though, obviously amongst other things like the cowardly tactics used by Hamas.


I agree that the army inquiry will be shit (would other armies be any better?).
Maybe, maybe not. The reality is that there aren't many armies from developed countries who find themselves having to launch internal investigations into questionable tactics on a such a regular basis, however pointless they may be.


but i think you are very naive if you think that this death is the major factor leading to more riots and terrorism. We should be talking about incitement and financing and also the power struggle between Hamas and Fatah in the West Bank.
Wouldn't say major factor, but certainly a contributing one, alongside bombings, blockades, ever expanding settlements and the popularity of extremism on the Palestinian side as a result. As bad as Hamas are they will naturally continue to gain support every time Benjamin decides he wants to build more settlements in disputed areas even against the advice of his allies. As complicated and terrible a conflict as it is, it certainly isn't going to stop as long as there are warmongering crazies like him in power. Hopefully we will see a peaceful resolution reached in our lifetime, but I think the Israeli population have the greatest role to play in getting there.
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Offline bigbonedrawky

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #54 on: October 27, 2014, 02:23:19 pm »


I am sorry but as soon as people like Yorkyrawky get involved the discussion is heading nowhere and no good can possibly come of it. Some people are so willfully ignorant of the facts that they simply poison the thread.

 :lmao

So which facts are people like me  :) willfully ignorant of ? Did your Government not deny access to the Dome, Did your Government not steal nearly a 1000 acres, less than a week after the so called Truce ?
Now I know there is a lot of BS written in the Media and on the Internet about what goes on in Palestine/Israel but please do enlighten me.
I might even tell you something about me, so the next time you mention people like me, you might actually have the first clue about people like me. 
or you can continue to act like your Government and ignore any opinion that differs to your one eyed view of what is deemed acceptable behavior in a so called civilised Democracy. 

Offline CorKopite

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #55 on: October 27, 2014, 03:22:01 pm »

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/pers...ank-buses.html
Starting next month, Palestinians and Israelis will no longer be taking the same transport buses.

Local media said Sunday that Palestinians will be effectively banned from riding the same buses as Israeli settlers in the West Bank, with a rights group slamming the plan as "racial segregation".

Hundreds of Palestinians travel each day to work in Israel from the occupied West Bank, mainly in the construction business, using a single crossing point at Eyal where they present travel permits.

Currently they are allowed to return to the West Bank on the same buses as Israeli settlers.

But a new measure announced by Israeli Defense Minister Moshe Yaalon, due to go into effect next month, will require them to again check in at the Eyal crossing point, the Haaretz daily reported.

The workers would have to find separate transportation from that point on.

The directive in effect "bans Palestinian workers from traveling on Israeli-run public transportation in the West Bank," said Haaretz.

The defense minister was not immediately available for comment.

Israeli settlers in the West Bank have called for years for Palestinians to be banned from public transport there, arguing their presence poses a security risk.

But Haaretz reported that the bus ban contradicted the view of the Israeli army, which does not see Palestinian commuters on Israeli transport as a threat, since the workers go through security vetting before receiving their travel permits.

Israeli rights group B'Tselem accused Yaalon of making a racially motivated decision.

"It is time to stop hiding behind technical arrangements... and admit this military procedure is thinly veiled pandering to the demand for racial segregation on buses," a group statement said.

Last year, the group criticized the Israeli government for its decision to launch separate bus lines for Palestinians in the occupied West Bank
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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #56 on: October 27, 2014, 03:39:15 pm »
It will get away with whatever it wants just about...
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Offline Redman0151

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #57 on: October 27, 2014, 04:31:23 pm »
http://english.alarabiya.net/en/pers...ank-buses.html
Starting next month, Palestinians and Israelis will no longer be taking the same transport buses.

Local media said Sunday that Palestinians will be effectively banned from riding the same buses as Israeli settlers in the West Bank, with a rights group slamming the plan as "racial segregation".

Hundreds of Palestinians travel each day to work in Israel from the occupied West Bank, mainly in the construction business, using a single crossing point at Eyal where they present travel permits.

Currently they are allowed to return to the West Bank on the same buses as Israeli settlers.

But a new measure announced by Israeli Defense Minister Moshe Yaalon, due to go into effect next month, will require them to again check in at the Eyal crossing point, the Haaretz daily reported.

The workers would have to find separate transportation from that point on.

The directive in effect "bans Palestinian workers from traveling on Israeli-run public transportation in the West Bank," said Haaretz.

The defense minister was not immediately available for comment.

Israeli settlers in the West Bank have called for years for Palestinians to be banned from public transport there, arguing their presence poses a security risk.

But Haaretz reported that the bus ban contradicted the view of the Israeli army, which does not see Palestinian commuters on Israeli transport as a threat, since the workers go through security vetting before receiving their travel permits.

Israeli rights group B'Tselem accused Yaalon of making a racially motivated decision.

"It is time to stop hiding behind technical arrangements... and admit this military procedure is thinly veiled pandering to the demand for racial segregation on buses," a group statement said.

Last year, the group criticized the Israeli government for its decision to launch separate bus lines for Palestinians in the occupied West Bank

Sure and let's ban all muslims from buses in the UK because of 7/7 as it's a security risk.

Israel are a bunch of animals and it's sad they're allowed to get away with what they are in the 21st century
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Offline Jebediah

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #58 on: October 27, 2014, 04:50:55 pm »
Sure and let's ban all muslims from buses in the UK because of 7/7 as it's a security risk.

Israel are a bunch of animals and it's sad they're allowed to get away with what they are in the 21st century

Not that i agree with the bus-ban (i of course do not) but do you think i am welcome on the local Arab buses that run by my house every day? If i went on the bus, or set foot on the Arab neighborhood then i would be lynched immediately, and the Palestinian leadership would hail the perpetrators as 'heroes'.

But you aren't going to call Palestinians animals are you? Probably not even the one that murdered the 3 month old baby (and a second victim who succumbed to her injuries yesterday).
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Offline Wool

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #59 on: October 27, 2014, 06:41:19 pm »
Well when a group treats another group like they're sub-human then people have an emotional response to it. I don't know if you took that as being anti-semitic (I don't think he meant it that way), but go into any thread (ISIS thread, terrorism threads etc) where humans are committing atrocities and you'll see similar language used.

Offline CorKopite

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #60 on: October 27, 2014, 08:36:06 pm »
I also don't think he meant it that way at all! It's not about that.

Point is, there are plenty of Israelis who disagree with the current regime's policies. Even those of us who grew up taking the number 5 bus in Tel Aviv (the one that got blown up most often). I don't feel comfortable being lumped into the same group with Bibi and his pals is all.
Is there much in the way of protests/negative media attention towards certain policies over there?
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Offline Henry Chinaski

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #61 on: October 29, 2014, 06:38:42 am »
My roots are Jewish (German, French and Belgian as well but that doesn't matter now), and I'm deeply ashamed by the Israeli policies. Yet, a lot of so called anti-zionism does feel like anti-semitism to me. Brussels, where I live, is a city with a large Arab population and I would never openly mention my mother's name or wear a yakama in public. Luckily, I'm an atheist. :)
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Offline Henry Chinaski

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #62 on: October 29, 2014, 06:46:56 am »
At Fat Scouser: you're partially right actually. Your drunken rant isn't bigotry in my eyes.

But, however, if the PC Police is white British people's biggest worry, then you might consider yourself quite lucky, 'cause nobody's depicting you as greedy, crooked-nosed monsters who either steal from or bomb every muslim they encounter. (and let's not mention the past for once :))
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Offline jooneyisdagod

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #63 on: October 29, 2014, 07:24:25 am »
My roots are Jewish (German, French and Belgian as well but that doesn't matter now), and I'm deeply ashamed by the Israeli policies. Yet, a lot of so called anti-zionism does feel like anti-semitism to me. Brussels, where I live, is a city with a large Arab population and I would never openly mention my mother's name or wear a yakama in public . Luckily, I'm an atheist. :)

Why is that mate ? Just curious.
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Offline Henry Chinaski

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #64 on: October 29, 2014, 07:47:04 am »
Why is that mate ? Just curious.
Lots of Islamic radicals here, with a lot of imams being imported from Saudi-Arabia preaching hatred. I hear the stories from Antwerp and Amsterdam about orthodox Jewish people being hit with stones or even beaten down, wouldn't want to risk the same shit. If I were religious, that is.
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Offline Henry Chinaski

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #65 on: October 29, 2014, 07:51:56 am »
Why is that mate ? Just curious.
But I've never experienced any trouble though. Maybe because I'm a tall, bald, white guy with no Jewish features (whatever those may be) what so ever.
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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #66 on: October 29, 2014, 09:08:47 am »
Lots of Islamic radicals here, with a lot of imams being imported from Saudi-Arabia preaching hatred. I hear the stories from Antwerp and Amsterdam about orthodox Jewish people being hit with stones or even beaten down, wouldn't want to risk the same shit. If I were religious, that is.

That's no good. Hope it gets better although it's good that you've never faced problems personally.
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Offline Henry Chinaski

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #67 on: October 29, 2014, 10:16:26 am »
That's no good. Hope it gets better although it's good that you've never faced problems personally.
Think Brussels is a bit comparable to Birmingham actually, in terms of Muslim population. The difference is: here they're mostly of north-African or Turkish heritage (still a big difference between those two), while in England I'm guessin' most are Pakistani people.
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Offline Macphisto80

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #68 on: October 29, 2014, 04:20:59 pm »
I think we're closer than you think mate!

Just saying that if the kid is in the process of throwing a molotov at people, how is that different to throwing a grenade or firing a gun? They are all lethal. I don't know where you live, but if you step outside, start rioting and chucking molotovs at the local police, they wouldn't shoot you dead?
I live in Belfast, have seen and participated in major riots in my youth, I admit, and during some instances, shots were fired from automatic weapons, but not from police, and they still couldn't, or were allowed, to return fire. I think you're exaggerating massively when you say that a petrol bomb (molotov) is no different to a grenade or firing a gun.  For one thing, try even getting within throwing distance of a heavily protected and armed force firing plastic baton rounds at you. You're far more in danger of harming yourself with the molotov than you are in harming anyone else. I saw a kid trying to throw one once, only for it to be struck by a plastic round in his hand and it exploded all over him. You're advocating of the use of deadly force for throwing one of those things is absolutely ridiculous.

Offline Macphisto80

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #69 on: October 29, 2014, 04:44:12 pm »
So you don't think a molotov can cause casualties? That to me is the centre of the argument. If a molotov can kill, then the officers' lives are in legitimate danger. Do you disagree?
In all my time and experience with seeing and hearing about those things being thrown at police and army, of which there were probably thousands, only on a few occasions was someone injured. I'm talking about the police, of course. Sure, some were burned, but non life threatening burns. They're well geared up enough to protect themselves from them. Anyway, you can only throw them so far, and like I said, they are more dodgy to the person actually doing the throwing than the ones they are aiming them at. A firework strapped with nails is potentially far more dangerous, or even a well aimed rock. The way I see it, the main purpose of a petrol bomb is to keep police at a distance, which they do anyway. If someone has enough balls to charge a police line and take a hit to the face with a plastic bullet, then fair play to them. Most aren't that stupid.

Oh, and if you really want to stop people throwing things related to fire, then how about just using a water cannon instead of a bullet? Sense, no?
« Last Edit: October 29, 2014, 04:46:34 pm by Macphisto80 »

Offline CorKopite

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #70 on: October 29, 2014, 05:17:18 pm »

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/29/binyamin-netanyahu-a-chickenshit-say-us-officials-in-explosive-interview

Binyamin Netanyahu 'chickenshit', say US officials in explosive interview
Quotes from senior Obama administration figures damn Israeli prime minister over stance on settlements and peace with Palestinians

US relations with Israel have plunged to new depths of bitterness and hostility as senior officials in the Obama administration decried Binyamin Netanyahu as a “chickenshit prime minister”, “coward” and a man more interested in his own political survival than peace.

The furious assessment delivered in anonymous but no-holds barred comments in an interview with the American journalist Jeffrey Goldberg in the Atlantic underline a state of anger with Netanyahu that is characterised as “red hot”.

The remarks are particularly telling in having been made to Goldberg, a Washington insider who has interviewed both Obama and Netanyahu, and who warned US-Israeli relations were in a “full-blown crisis” that could only get worse after the midterm elections.

Speaking to the Israeli parliament – the Knesset – a few hours after the comments were revealed, Netanyahu angrily insisted he was “under attack simply for defending Israel”, adding that he “cherished” Israel’s relationship with the US.

“When there are pressures on Israel to concede its security, the easiest thing to do is to concede,” he said. “You get a round of applause, ceremonies on grassy knolls, and then come the missiles and the tunnels.”

The Obama officials’ comments underline the dismal state of relations between the Obama administration and Netanyahu after a series of damaging announcements by Israel – including again this week – regarding its determination to push ahead with settlement building in occupied East Jerusalem and the West Bank.

The temperature of relations plunged again last week when Israel’s defence minister, Moshe Yaalon, was pointedly snubbed by senior administration officials during a visit last week to Washington, which itself followed a public warning from the White House that Israel risked alienating its “closest allies”.

Despite the deepening frustration in Washington, Netanyahu continued to hit back over the latest settlement announcement, saying US criticism was “detached from reality”, even on the eve of the publication of the latest remarks.

“The thing about Bibi is, he’s a chickenshit,” said one official quoted in the Atlantic. “The good thing about Netanyahu is that he’s scared to launch wars. The bad thing about him is that he won’t do anything to reach an accommodation with the Palestinians or with the Sunni Arab states.

“The only thing he’s interested in is protecting himself from political defeat. He’s not [Yitzhak] Rabin, he’s not [Ariel] Sharon, he’s certainly no [Menachem] Begin. He’s got no guts.”

In a more diplomatic and public statement on the recent settlement announcements, the US national security council spokesman Alistair Baskey insisted the US would continue to criticise Israel.

“There are times when we disagree with actions of the Israeli government and we must raise our concerns, such as our concerns about Israel’s settlement policy,” he said. “We raise these concerns as a partner who is deeply concerned about Israel’s future and wants to see Israel living side by side in peace and security with its neighbours.”

In comments designed to further sting Netanyahu, who has expended huge diplomatic effort on attempting to derail any deal with Iran over its nuclear programme, another official suggested the White House no longer believed Netanyahu would launch a pre-emptive strike on Iran to prevent it obtaining nuclear weapons.

“It’s too late for him to do anything,” the official said. “Two, three years ago, this was a possibility. But ultimately he couldn’t bring himself to pull the trigger. It was a combination of our pressure and his own unwillingness to do anything dramatic. Now it’s too late.”

A White House spokesman sought to distance the administration from the remarks, insisting they were “inappropriate and counter-productive”, adding Netanyahu and Obama have “forged an effective partnership”.

The comments are the latest in a series of high-profile spats between Washington and Netanyahu’s government. Relations began their sharp decline when defence minister Yaalon accused the US secretary of state, John Kerry, of being “obsessive and messianic” in his pursuit of a peace deal between Israelis and Palestinians. Later, in off-the-record remarks, Kerry warned that Israeli risked becoming “an apartheid state”.

On Wednesday Netanyahu told the Knesset: “I am not prepared to make concessions that will endanger our state. Understand, our national interests, topped by security and the unity of Jerusalem, are not what top the interests of those anonymous forces attacking us, and me personally. I am under attack simply because I am defending the State of Israel. If I didn’t stand firm on our national interests, I would not be under attack.

“I respect and cherish the deep connection with the United States. Since the establishment of the state, we’ve had our arguments and then some. We have seen time after time, year and year, support rising among the American public. The strategic alliance between the stances is continuing and will continue.”

Responding to the remarks in the Atlantic late on Tuesday night, Israel’s far-right economics minister, Naftali Bennett, used his Facebook page to call for Washington to renounce the comments: “If what was written [in The Atlantic] is true, then it appears the current administration plans to throw Israel under the bus.

“The prime minister is not a private person but the leader of the Jewish state and the whole Jewish world. Such severe insults towards the prime minister of Israel are hurtful to millions of Israeli citizens and Jews all over the world.

“Instead of attacking Israel and forcing it to accept suicidal terms, it should be strengthened. I call on the US administration to renounce these coarse comments and to reject them outright.”
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Offline Broad Spectrum

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #71 on: October 29, 2014, 05:22:04 pm »



An Israeli and a Palestinian gesture at one another during Palestinian protests against Jewish visitors to the compound known to Muslims as Noble Sanctuary and to Jews as Temple Mount in the Old City.

Offline CorKopite

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #72 on: October 29, 2014, 05:31:23 pm »
Important to note that the V doesn't have the same meaning in Israel as it does in Britain.

What meaning does it have? Genuine question.
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Offline Macphisto80

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #73 on: October 29, 2014, 06:33:35 pm »
Important to note that the V doesn't have the same meaning in Israel as it does in Britain.
It'd be great if gestures were the only thing being thrown at each other, regardless of meaning. Imagine that for a face off: each side giving each other the finger as hard as they possibly can before walking off and saying " We won that one, lads!"

Offline Jebediah

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #74 on: October 29, 2014, 06:41:42 pm »
I live in Belfast, have seen and participated in major riots in my youth, I admit, and during some instances, shots were fired from automatic weapons, but not from police, and they still couldn't, or were allowed, to return fire. I think you're exaggerating massively when you say that a petrol bomb (molotov) is no different to a grenade or firing a gun.  For one thing, try even getting within throwing distance of a heavily protected and armed force firing plastic baton rounds at you. You're far more in danger of harming yourself with the molotov than you are in harming anyone else. I saw a kid trying to throw one once, only for it to be struck by a plastic round in his hand and it exploded all over him. You're advocating of the use of deadly force for throwing one of those things is absolutely ridiculous.

Except he was 'allegedly' throwing it off a bridge and onto oncoming traffic. There was no 'heavily protected and armed force firing plastic baton rounds'.
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Offline Jebediah

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #75 on: October 29, 2014, 06:45:04 pm »



An Israeli and a Palestinian gesture at one another during Palestinian protests against Jewish visitors to the compound known to Muslims as Noble Sanctuary and to Jews as Temple Mount in the Old City.

Assuming we are all up in arms over the fact that Jews are not allowed to pray at their holiest site...
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Offline Jebediah

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #76 on: October 29, 2014, 06:47:07 pm »
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/29/binyamin-netanyahu-a-chickenshit-say-us-officials-in-explosive-interview



It's funny as i largely agree with Bibi's beef with the US administration and at the same time i largely agree with the US administrations beef with Bibi.

We badly need a US administration that 'gets' the Middle East and we badly need an Israeli leader who is prepared to be a statesman ahead of a politician.
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Offline Macphisto80

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #77 on: October 29, 2014, 06:48:03 pm »
Except he was 'allegedly' throwing it off a bridge and onto oncoming traffic. There was no 'heavily protected and armed force firing plastic baton rounds'.
And what? That still justifies shooting to death, does it? In most countries you get arrested and sent to prison or a juvenile home. Not shot dead. There's been plenty of instances where I'm from of dickheads dropping cinder blocks from bridges onto cars on a highway. That to me is far more dangerous.

Offline Jebediah

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #78 on: October 29, 2014, 06:59:23 pm »
And what? That still justifies shooting to death, does it? In most countries you get arrested and sent to prison or a juvenile home. Not shot dead. There's been plenty of instances where I'm from of dickheads dropping cinder blocks from bridges onto cars on a highway. That to me is far more dangerous.

As has already been said, we don't know if the soldier was trying to kill him or not. Nevertheless, if someone was about to drop a cinder block onto my car i would fully expect the army, if they had the opportunity, to use any means necessary to prevent him.

Are we all in agreement that throwing molotov cocktails at Jewish cars is not a very nice thing to do? Only that i haven't seen anyone condemn this boy and after all the Jews were settlers so maybe legitimate targets?
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Offline Macphisto80

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Re: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion
« Reply #79 on: October 29, 2014, 08:51:31 pm »
As has already been said, we don't know if the soldier was trying to kill him or not. Nevertheless, if someone was about to drop a cinder block onto my car i would fully expect the army, if they had the opportunity, to use any means necessary to prevent him.

Are we all in agreement that throwing molotov cocktails at Jewish cars is not a very nice thing to do? Only that i haven't seen anyone condemn this boy and after all the Jews were settlers so maybe legitimate targets?
It's not a very nice thing to do no matter what walk of life you come from, but I still wouldn't like to see a kid shot dead over it. A good kick in the bollocks and off to jail you go will do.