Topic: Optimism VS Pessimism Vs Blind faith

[Reeves]

IMHO, Iwould NEVER EVER boo or jeer a player in a red shirt. It doesn't help him, it doesn't help the team, and it doesn't make me feel better. It serves only as a spur to the opposition, encouragement to the away fans and is counter-productive.

When I think of Liverppol FC. I think only of 100% total and unrivalled support. Because i want them to win as much as they do.

When we win, I win and am happy. When we lose, I lose and I'm sad. It's as simple as that. My state of mind, my attitude, my every-day activities are largely determined by those 11 men on the field.

But should all fans give that 100% backing?

What if certain players aren't performing?

When should you turn 100% backing in to "well he could be playing better". When does your backing become questioning? When does your support become, frustration? Where do the boundaries lie?

Are we no longer allowed to question?

Is it no longer socially acceptable to question the performance of players in this "cyber world"?

Is it acceptable to say "player A was shit"? Or should we be "supporting"?

Is critisism merely a manifestation of our "support"?

Are we not allowed to question?

What rights do we "as fans" have from this perspective?

Constructive critisism?

Personally, i feel that Abel is not good enough for a red shirt. We have better players available. i would never dream of giving him less than 110% backing on a field, but at the end of the day, I feel we are weakened as a team with him in our right back position. Am I less of a fan? Is this behaviour and critisism allowed?

This is only an example, but I welcome your thoughts on the general issue, of where to draw the line regarding critisism/support.

[laddo]

at long fucking last. some sense. i agree with each every point made 10000%.

we pay players wages and so IMO are entitled to criticise, somebody who, in mine and many others opinion isnt good enough to be a liverpool player.

[RedLoner]

When we win, I win and am happy. When we lose, I lose and I'm sad. It's as simple as that. My state of mind, my attitude, my every-day activities are largely determined by those 11 men on the field.

How true  

Coming back to your questions, I can't tell you where you should draw the line when you're on the forum, but if you were arguing with me directly, then I don't see why you shouldn't be allowed to criticise any player. However I'll repeat what I've read on this forum before, in that don't take that criticism with you to the field, it's destructive, it's not support; but judging from what you're saying, you don't need me telling you that.

Now, this said, you have to expect some counter criticism by those who think that you shouldn't get on any player's back, whether at the football ground or outside; they too, have the right to express themselves, to which you will retaliate...etc   You get the idea.

As for Abel Xavier, I have to agree that a certain Markus Babbel would be better as right back.  But the mistakes he's made are sometimes blown out of proportion; he's taken some slack since the start, and then it became contagious; so while some people's criticism of AX is objective, others are just looking for a scapegoat to axe (how about that game of words eh?  ); others just jump on the bandwagon.

[Gnurglan]

I'd never shout anything bad during a game. Then it's all about support. As soon as I'm out of the stadium, when the game is over, then I speak my mind. (Not that I go to that many games live but that's my way.) Even when watching TV, I try to keep a positive attitude regarding the players, until the game is over.

When it comes to Xavier... I've said it before; I don't feel comfortable with the AX-Henchoz partnership. Since we keep on conceding goals the same way, we have to do something about this. Carra is better at defending and Babbel is better at both defending and attacking than AX. Drop Xavier.

[laddo]

I'd never shout anything bad during a game. Then it's all about support. As soon as I'm out of the stadium, when the game is over, then I speak my mind. (Not that I go to that many games live but that's my way.) Even when watching TV, I try to keep a positive attitude regarding the players, until the game is over.

When it comes to Xavier... I've said it before; I don't feel comfortable with the AX-Henchoz partnership. Since we keep on conceding goals the same way, we have to do something about this. Carra is better at defending and Babbel is better at both defending and attacking than AX. Drop Xavier.

another spot on post on this subject.  

[Jon G]

I'd never shout anything bad during a game. Then it's all about support. As soon as I'm out of the stadium, when the game is over, then I speak my mind. (Not that I go to that many games live but that's my way.) Even when watching TV, I try to keep a positive attitude regarding the players, until the game is over.

When it comes to Xavier... I've said it before; I don't feel comfortable with the AX-Henchoz partnership. Since we keep on conceding goals the same way, we have to do something about this. Carra is better at defending and Babbel is better at both defending and attacking than AX. Drop Xavier.

You read my mind lol. Check my post on the Newcastle thread.

[Matt S]

I feel that constructive, argued criticism is ok, in the pub, on the net, or wherever. Its a question of voicing your opinions, but not being nasty about it. But to come out with XAVIER IS SHITE, or something like that is not on. To me, you may as well be at anfield booing cos its not constructive and it doesnt help anyone.

[Fanxxxxtastic]

I have never, ever said that Abel Xavier is shite, 'cos he isn't.  He's proved very valuable as a member of the squad on numerous occasions.

I just don't think that the deals with players with pace very well.  He was out witted by Damien Duff last week for the first goal, and he didn't respond to well for the first goal this week.
 

[KFC]

Agree with REEVES 100000000000000%

We are not saying Abel Xavier is sh ite or doubting his commitment to the club -- it is just that he should not be a player in our starting lineup, THAT IS IT.  He is no full-backs, slow with very bad positional sense when dealing with fast wingers.  He is just a squad player who plays in CB when our first choice CBs have an injury.

However we all know that most of the good teams in EPL are playing with fast and tricky left-winger (Duff / Robert / Kewell / Giggs / Pires) -- that is why we asked for Xavier to be dropped, because he is not good enough for the position he is asked to play and his best position is now being occupied by 2 of the best players in Europe : IS THAT A SIN?

Think about Biscan being asked to play right midfield or Litmanen who is being asked to play center forward.  I think Xavier belongs to the same case.

Having said all that I hope this discussion would die down because I have a feeling that GH is the type of person that the more people questioning his tactics / selections the more he is going to stick with it : So if we kept on telling him DON'T PLAY XAVIER it might make him to stick with him more.

From now on we should start saying 'Carra does not deserved his place ahead of Xavier since Xavier is our best RB on hand' -- it might tempt Houiller to prove his doubter's wrong by dropping Xavier in favour or Carra.  You'll never know.....

[Roger]

I would never say Xavier is shite but he is a weak link when being attacked at pace. December 1st could see him up against Ryan Giggs for example.

The goals we have conceeded this week are all a bit too similar for my liking which Ged has obviously picked up on. Interesting what he does re Birmingham next week.

 

[Reeves]

An interesting point aside......

Isn't the saying...........

 "you don't what you have got until it's gone"

......quite appropriate in Carragher's case.

The first to be booed at Anfield be the idiots and now the player everyone is clammering to have back in the side.


[and that doesn't necessarily apply to people on here, but a general observation]

[KFC]

Carra has become one of my favourite player since his astonishing sudden-death penalty kick in the WC final -- he must have started the run from the half way line!!

To be honest I will be less worried if Xavier is being played at RB in the Birmingham / Bolton game because they don't have a pacey left winger.  However I will be gutted if I see him playing the West Ham game facing the likes of Joe Cole / Vassell or Sinclair.

I was gutted when I see him paired against Viana (which fortunately was shi te last night) and Robert (which unfortunately was superb last night) in the Newcastle game.  I was desperately gutted when I see him paired with that little Irish guy we wanted at Ewood Park.

Anyway I heard Markus is going to be back in 1-2 weeks time so we should be alright by then.

[Paul]

"you don't what you have got until it's gone"

......quite appropriate in Carragher's case.

Good point mate. I think Im the same as the majority on here, when I say criticism should be left for the pub, the bus home, and the website forums. It has no place inside Anfield (maybe they should get George to change that racist announcement before the game to include "no booing" as well).

Having said that, I would like to see the squad rotation come into play, as Abel is clearly not peforming and we have other people who can do the job - thats why we have a big squad after all.

[Shaky Jake]

So this is the "I don't criticise, but that f***in' Xavier gotta go" thread... ?

[smicer07]

I have blind faith and I'm not ashamed to admit it. I support all the lads 100%, of course I get pissed off like I was last night, but I don't blame anyone, that's life, and that's football I'm afraid. People seem to think that blind faith is a bad thing but I don't. I think it shows that you respect the manager's choices, and whilst also having your own personal opinions, they are never aired so as not to disrespect GH. After all, we can all play Championship Manager and win, but GH knows an awful lot more about the ins and outs of football than any of us lot.

[RedLee1978]

Reeves, Ive always respected your posts on the LFC.tv boards and this one again is of the highest order!

Of course everyone is entitled to there own opinion, and everyone is entitled to the right to air there own opinion. But if that opinion is voiced at a match, or in verbal obuse towards a player, or in anyway that is in detriment to the way that player, and subsequently the team, performs then surely this is totally against the idea of being a SUPPORTER.

I have to agree with you that I believe the team would be stronger without Abel at right back, but you are totally right that you would never give anything less than 110% backing to him when he's on that pitch wearing the liver bird on his chest.

Everyone lets out the odd groan when there is bad first touch, stray pass, etc or laffs at a shot hitting the corner flag... but thats just nature when you want everything to go right for the team you support and love.

Constructivly criticise players performances over an after match pint, get angry at team selections, football IS a game of opinions!
But support the players on the pitch! They are playing for the team we love.

Rant over from the new boy  

YNWA

[4pool]

Everyone's entitled to their opinion. What you do with it dictates whether it is constructive or negative.

Supporters think the team is theirs. It's why they pay their money. Apparently quite a number think that Xavier doesn't deserve a place. Why? Because the TEAM  let in a few goals?

It may have been Xaviers fault for the cross that let Speed in but it wasn't his job to mark Speed. It may have been Xaviers fault for the corner but it wasn't his job to out jump Shearer.

Houllier and Thommo hate when goals go in just as much as we do. Last season we had the best defense. We've let in 4 goals in 4 matches. That's terrible. Last season when we were the best, we let in 7 goals in the first 4 matches. Apparently, we're still shite..

However all that aside, people look for scapegoats when they perceive things going wrong. Unfortunately it's Xaviers turn. It's a good thing Ged's in charge. As with Westerveld, if we do have a weak link he'll sort it out. And i doubt Ged thinks Xavier is a weak link. If you do, keep it to yourself..

A blind optimist, that's me..

[treble2001]

I just thought that a few people were looking for a scapegoat (Goat being the word most fitting for Abel).

Abel has a great game, yet still people want him out of the team.  On a forum I can take, everyones entitled to their opinion.  The reason why I went on about it wasn't because of people on here, it was because everytime he lost the ball on Monday there were groans from everyone nearly.  It was like Murphy last season, and he's never, ever going to make it because there will always be fans at Anfield who won't give him a chance.

As some tit of a Mod once said (Mentioning no names, Steve) "We Are Supporters: Not Fans"....and it seems that everyone on this board has got that spot on.

[Jonathan Hall ☆☆☆☆☆☆]

Mark, i still have a knobhead sitting behind me still slagging off Murphy.

He has a go, then fucks off early.

Even missed his pen against Soton the other week, which made me feel much better.

[rooth]

Don't believe in booing our players during a game - if they're playing badly, they must be already feeling bad, so why make them feel worse?

But "blind faith" is as the vernacular implies - if something is not going well, there must be something amiss, and if we choose to avert our eyes, we simply are the blind leading the sightless.

On a serious level, it is our duty as well-meaning fans who want the best out of the team to speak out.

On a social level, it is but human nature to mouth off our opinions after a game - hey!  what's the fun of watching a game if you're not going to tear it to shreds and analyse it to bits right after??!!

This is a football game, man!

[ronanb]

Well said mate i would like to add to the players....smicer and heskey.

I am not saying that they are shite??? but i dont think that they deserve a place in the starting 11, thats my opinion and i hate it when people slate me for this, saying that i am not a real supporter, but i am only saying what i think, i want liverpool to win the league with the strongest possible team that they have, and i dont think that a team consisting of abel. heskey and smicer is going to give us the strength we need.

I think that there are other players at the club that would add something more to the team than these 3.

notably one would be Baros, who we thought was class in madrid!!! true?,those who were there with us thought so??? and now when we need a good strong centre forward who can take players on, has pace and a good eye for goal.

he can not even get a place on the bench. He is only human and must be laughing or even crying at the fact that there are players on the team playing badly and he cant even get a game.

I just feel as a FAN or so called fan as i am called on Offal(But it just isnt the same in there when you get people posting "salt & vinegar ot cheese & onion")

that i will support my team 100% and be able to point out what i feel is bad about the team.

but on a postive note that was the best i have ever seen them play as a team against Newcastle, so keep up the good work and work on those weaknesses (you know who u are)

ronanb (formally known as newrycityred, but cant remeber password)

[4pool]

It's a funny ol' game...

As a supporter you have NO choice. You have to have blind faith.

Makes no difference if your an optimist or pessimist.
Makes no difference if you have an opinion or not.
Makes no difference if YOU think Xavier shouldn't start or not.
Makes no difference if Smicer, Heskey, Murphy, Carragher, or anyone else is shite in YOUR opinion.

There ain't a damn thing you can do about it.

The players we have now are OURS.
Support them! end of...

Critisizing any of them won't solve any problems or bring goals back or make us score more. Analyzing after the match every 5 minutes worth of  the match, won't change the result., make the players better, or improve their confidence.

The only option you do have is HOW you support the team. Not only at the match but in the pub, with your mates and when you post.

IMHO...if LFC are to take the next step in our progression and claim title #19, it is up to our SUPPORTERS to help the team with their support at the match. To get behind the team, each and every player, at all times.

At the end of the season, then have your go. Until then, be a supporter, funny what blind faith might do....

[Zach]

You have a point, 4pool. It is not our job to decide the tactics and who should play. It is our manager's job, but we are still part of LiverpoolFC, so we can discuss about players, tactics and our manager's decisions.
During the game, you put all things on the side and support whoever wears the red shirt, but after the game you can still post your opinions and views about things you agree/disagree with as long as they are written in a polite manner and do not offend other fans.
Just like you can discuss about the new stadium, you can discuss about the team.
It's also fun to share and listen to other views with fellow reds

[4pool]

Well I just find it funny, in a sad way, what supporters think they accomplish by slagging one of OUR players?

Will Xavier become the next World 11 right back because someone makes a "brilliant" constructive post in some LFC forum? Will Heskey score more goals because someone determines he needs to? Will Smicer get stuck in because someone posts he needs to?

One may get it off their chest, so to speak, but I just feel that negative posts about a player whom is deemed a weak link ----in "your" opinion--- only serves to exasperate the growing boo boys at the stadium. So it doesn't serve the purpose, or maybe it does, to the person who posts negative stuff.. And if "you" are trying to get a player slagged because it suites your purpose, then I have a problem with that...

and "you" doesn't mean you specifically..if you get my drift...

[Zach]

Yes, but it's like talking about any other subject.
If you talk about a TV series, will it change the plot?
If you talk about History or your opinion about politicians, will it change their actions?

It's just the way of life. The subject in this board is LIVERPOOL, so that's what we're talking about:
The players, the coach, the fans, the songs, the history, the tactics etc.

I don't see anything wrong with that.