Topic: UAPs over America: real or balloons??

[Dr. Beaker]

You need to loop in the 'The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!', 'VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General' and the 'JFK' threads.

Steven Greenstreet
@MiddleOfMayhem
Pentagon states that the alien UFO claims of "whistleblower" David Grusch are unfounded and false.

Such claims "are largely the result of circular reporting by a small group repeating what they heard from others."

Exactly what I've been reporting.

https://twitter.com/MiddleOfMayhem/status/1766492168594882940?cxt=HBwW-IXc-ZPR64MxAAAA&cn=ZmxleGlibGVfcmVjcw%3D%3D&refsrc=email

[lionel_messias]

2 minutes in and he states that understanding the building blocks of life can be "approached with the same methodologies that I have with cancer research... ...it's straightforward.."

As for everything is made of stardust. That's true in the sense that everything in the universe is made of the same stuff and stars and supernovas transform the simplest elements (Hydrogen) into more complex elements and isottopes of elements.

The rest of it is the same stuf he's been peddling for years, including bits of biszmuth he claims are from a downed spacecraft:



and the Ubatuba magnesium samples:



He's not a material scientist, he's not an astrophysicist, he's not an expert in anything other than cancer research, which he is very good at.

Using Nolan's logic, the study of cancer can be "approached with the same methodologies that I have with [insert your own field here]... ...it's straightforward..." It's nonsense. Having expertise in one specialised field doesn't make you and expert in another. It doesn't preclude it of course, but the evidence of Nolan's wafflings about tiny bits of debris shows he's clearly outside his comfort zone.

Let's take it back to a very base level, he's a scientist. We can all agree, science requires irrefutable proof, study and then peer review.

This is what he and others want, including every sceptic surely? I think I heard Mick West calling for this as well.

The incomplete and nakedly transparent AARO report would not stand up to any peer review. Lapped up by the media too.

We are exactly where we were: bring out what has been briefed in classified settings to members of Congress into the open. To scientists first if necessary, doesn't have to be Gary Nolan. Examine the data, all of it, and let all of David Grusch's allegations be investigated. If he has any proof, let's see it. If it true that all these people gathered at the Sol Foundation, based on circular conversations and heresay, then bring this out. Catigate them for wasting time, money and everything else.

Bring out the information, this year, 2024, or go home.

[Riquende]

We can all agree, science requires irrefutable proof

No. Science requires a hypothesis, and that the available evidence support that hypothesis. That hypothesis must be falsifiable (as in 'able to be shown to be wrong') in order for it to be tested. When tested, the more evidence that is then gathered that supports the hypothesis (and a lack of anything found that disproves it), the more it progresses towards being an accepted scientfic theory.

So in summary, scientists are constantly attempting to disprove hypotheses, that's how the method works and it's their failure to do so (for a specific hypothesis) that marks scientific progress. No scientific theory is ever beyond this, at any time new evidence could come to light that completely upends what we think we know about anything.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Let's take it back to a very base level, he's a scientist. We can all agree, science requires irrefutable proof, study and then peer review.

This is what he and others want, including every sceptic surely? I think I heard Mick West calling for this as well.

The incomplete and nakedly transparent AARO report would not stand up to any peer review. Lapped up by the media too.

We are exactly where we were: bring out what has been briefed in classified settings to members of Congress into the open. To scientists first if necessary, doesn't have to be Gary Nolan. Examine the data, all of it, and let all of David Grusch's allegations be investigated. If he has any proof, let's see it. If it true that all these people gathered at the Sol Foundation, based on circular conversations and heresay, then bring this out. Catigate them for wasting time, money and everything else.

Bring out the information, this year, 2024, or go home.

Well, that did not take long.

Of course, you will state exactly the same thing in next year, except for updating the year to 2025.

[thejbs]

No. Science requires a hypothesis, and that the available evidence support that hypothesis. That hypothesis must be falsifiable (as in 'able to be shown to be wrong') in order for it to be tested. When tested, the more evidence that is then gathered that supports the hypothesis (and a lack of anything found that disproves it), the more it progresses towards being an accepted scientfic theory.

So in summary, scientists are constantly attempting to disprove hypotheses, that's how the method works and it's their failure to do so (for a specific hypothesis) that marks scientific progress. No scientific theory is ever beyond this, at any time new evidence could come to light that completely upends what we think we know about anything.

Beat me to it. I couldn’t read beyond that opening gambit.

[lionel_messias]

Guys - you cannot prove your position, and I cannot prove mine.

At least I'm open and interested in finding what is behind David Grusch's claims.

And also, why Christopher Mellon thinks there's an issue to be looked at here.

If they are both separately delusional, or some weird CIA thing. fine: bring it out and we can close the book.

So far 2024 is a nothingburger on this topic some of you think that will be the case for the next 20 years.

I guess we'll see.

[PROPER crazyemlyn72]

i mean that report was basically the police investigating the police. it wouldnt fill you confidence. im well aware i could be totally wrong.

"hey you guys, any of yis got any of those ufo thingies hidden over there?"

"who? us? nope!"

"ok, thats fine lads"

so easy to sort this out, release all the evidence. but no, all evidence taken off the nimitz. why do that if its nothing. i could go on....

[Riquende]

Well, that did not take long.

Of course, you will state exactly the same thing in next year, except for updating the year to 2025.

What still gives me a good chortle about Lionel etc is that they still just keep proving my original assertion correct that they sound like the MAGA cultists, you can easily go find screenshots of all that nonsense and it's all "Why the delays white hats, what more do you need, show the public the evidence" etc etc. Just pleading for something they're clearly convinced exists and is being hidden... rather than adopting the sensible default position of basing your beliefs on what you have evidence for.

For example, we've now got this:

Guys - you cannot prove your position, and I cannot prove mine.

Lionel, there's such a thing called the "burden of proof", which lies solely and firmly with those people making claims. If you want to claim (or at least believe people who claim) that there's some sort of cover up, and the Pentagon, NASA, Disney Imagineers, or whoever else, know and are hiding the "truth"...

Fine, but that's on you (and them) to provide evidence, and standing there shouting "You cannot prove your position either" is entirely irrelevant, because the default position, which is the one you continually tilt against and is the one adopted by the sensible people posting here, is "Go on then, prove it. And until then, stop being silly".

You seem to love making entirely wrong-headed statements, two just this afternoon. And then when called out you don't even address it and try to squirm away, change the focus and start again. This is still your trademark posting style, being fundamentally dishonest within your own topic. Have some respect for the other people discussing the subject and some of it may circle back around.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Guys - you cannot prove your position, and I cannot prove mine.

At least I'm open and interested in finding what is behind David Grusch's claims.

And also, why Christopher Mellon thinks there's an issue to be looked at here.

If they are both separately delusional, or some weird CIA thing. fine: bring it out and we can close the book.

So far 2024 is a nothingburger on this topic some of you think that will be the case for the next 20 years.

I guess we'll see.

I take about as much notice of that if it was Keith Lemon who thinks there is an issue to look at here. 'Appeal to authority' is not an argument - it is a logical fallacy.

By the way, as has been pointed out to you ad nauseam, it is for those who make the claim to 'prove their position'.

[rob1966]

But of course. It is quite the (beautiful) circular construction.

Like this?

[Jiminy Cricket]

What still gives me a good chortle about Lionel etc is that they still just keep proving my original assertion correct that they sound like the MAGA cultists, you can easily go find screenshots of all that nonsense and it's all "Why the delays white hats, what more do you need, show the public the evidence" etc etc. Just pleading for something they're clearly convinced exists and is being hidden... rather than adopting the sensible default position of basing your beliefs on what you have evidence for.

Just how many times have we been in the same position in this thread over the past year? Ludicrous. I suppose it is kinda funny. But it is also disturbing.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Like this?

But of course 'red pill guys' all know that was constructed to throw all you sheep off the scent. You are so naive.

[RJH]

i mean that report was basically the police investigating the police. it wouldnt fill you confidence. im well aware i could be totally wrong.

"hey you guys, any of yis got any of those ufo thingies hidden over there?"

"who? us? nope!"

"ok, thats fine lads"

so easy to sort this out, release all the evidence. but no, all evidence taken off the nimitz. why do that if its nothing. i could go on....

But if they released all the evidence and there was still nothing, Conspiracy Theorists would remain unconviced and just say "ah, they haven't really released all the evidence, they're still hiding something".

Meanwhile, all kinds of secret data and research would have been released for no benefit.

[rob1966]

But of course 'red pill guys' all know that was constructed to throw all you sheep off the scent. You are so naive.

True.

[BarryCrocker]

They're here.

Mystery 10ft monolith appears out of nowhere and no one knows why

Walkers have been baffled by a mystery steel monolith which appeared on a hill in Hay-on-Wye, Wales.

Locals in the Powys town spotted the block of steel – which is shaped like a giant Toblerone – on Hay Bluff over the weekend.

But it’s not the only mystery monolith – a string of sightings were reported in rural areas across Europe in 2020, including on the Isle of Wight and at the Merry Maidens stone circle in Cornwall.



https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/mystery-10ft-monolith-appears-out-of-nowhere-and-no-one-knows-why/ar-BB1jHMVK

I can hear Richard Strauss's 'Also Sprach Zarathustra' wafting over the Brecon Beacons.

[Jiminy Cricket]

They're here.

I can hear Richard Strauss's 'Also Sprach Zarathustra' wafting over the Brecon Beacons.

There was one a few years ago in the middle of nowhere in the US (in a canyon, I think). I want to say Utah (but I might be mistaken).

[lionel_messias]

They're here.

I can hear Richard Strauss's 'Also Sprach Zarathustra' wafting over the Brecon Beacons.

If only Stanley Kubrick was alive and in Wales

Wish he'd still be on the planet to film his Napolean and Foucault's Pendulum scripts. Alas.

[thejbs]

Guys - you cannot prove your position, and I cannot prove mine.

The celestial teapot springs to mind.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

At least I'm open and interested in finding what is behind David Grusch's claims.

And back with the open-minded thing again. Refusing to accept objective reality when evidence to the contrary does not exist, does not make you open-minded.

[Jiminy Cricket]

The celestial teapot springs to mind.

I had exactly the same thought when I read that comment yesterday.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

And back with the open-minded thing again. Refusing to accept objective reality when evidence to the contrary does not exist, does not make you open-minded.

It's Deja vu all over again.

[lionel_messias]

Well done, you reaction guys for getting this thread to 50 pages.

Here's to the next 50.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Well done, you reaction guys for getting this thread to 50 pages.

Here's to the next 50.

Ah, Shucks. Thank you. But we could not have done it without you.

[Boston always unofficial]

Well done, you reaction guys for getting this thread to 50 pages.

Here's to the next 50.

 

[Dr. Beaker]

 

That's actually the most convincing thing I've ever seen.

[Alan_X]

Let's take it back to a very base level, he's a scientist. We can all agree, science requires irrefutable proof, study and then peer review.

This is what he and others want, including every sceptic surely? I think I heard Mick West calling for this as well.

The incomplete and nakedly transparent AARO report would not stand up to any peer review. Lapped up by the media too.

Yes he is a scientist:

His areas of research include autoimmunity and inflammation, cancer and leukemia, hematopoiesis, and using computation for network and systems immunology.

He is not a materials specialist. He’s not an astrophysicist. As far as I’m aware, he knows fuck all about relativity or quantum physics and the limitations those sciences place on interstellar or intergalactic travel. He clearly knows nothing about the design of any kind of occupied space vehicle.


He has abandoned any pretence of applying the scientific method to his “research” into scraps and dog ends of material that at best might be remnants of meteorite activity and at worst complete fabrications.

Travis Taylor (chief scientist for Skinwalker Ranch) is better qualified (astrophysics and aerospace engineering) and he is off the whackadoodle scale, tarting himself for TV ratings.

Being a scientist means fuck all if you abandon science.

You claim that our positions are essentially the same but they aren’t. My position is falsifiable (and therefore scientific) in that I am skeptical based on all available evidence and the limitations on interstellar or intergalactic travel, but that skepticism would be set aside in the face of incontrovertible evidence (fuzzy images, third hand testimony etc doesn’t cut it).


Your position (as demonstrated regularly in this topic) is entirely unfalsifiable (and therefore pseudo-scientific). There is no way that your hypothesis can be disproved. The AARO report is fabricated. Grusch and others are being silenced by threats. The fuzzy pictures are just the ones we’re allowed to see - the good ones re being held back. The supporting radar data from the tic-tac events is suppressed. The bodies and the alien technology are being held by the USG and/or Lockheed. If the press/senators/media are ever allowed in and the technology has disappeared it’s because it’s all been moved. If faster than light travel is impossible then it stands to reason that the ETs have superior technology we can’t possibly imagine. Or they aren’t from another star system - they’re from another dimension… and on, and on, and on we go.

UFOs are relatively harmless and since I’ve come off Twitter it doesn’t register that much. But then I get links to things like the tweets of Chris Lehto, who seemed relatively sane a year ago but is now utterly demented and in David Icke territory. His obsession with UFOs and discovering the “real” truth has completely destroyed his sanity. He’s released a series of YouTube. Videos where he explains his theory of everything, babbling about the density of light being the fourth dimension.


To quote Stevie Wonder (not a scientist): When you believe in things you don’t understand, you suffer.

[Riquende]

To quote Stevie Wonder (not a scientist): When you believe in things you don’t understand, you suffer.

An excellent summing up Alan. One thing caught my eye though:

"seemed relatively sane a year ago but is now utterly demented "

Funnily enough I was talking about this with a mate the other day on a wholly different subject - celebrity grifters, but it could also apply to right-wing political pundits of the likes of Candace Owens etc - they just seem to be getting worse and worse as time goes on. I think they're addicted to the performative nature of what they do and the attention it brings them, but keep having to raise their level of nonsense to keep their marks' interest, especially if other people are trying to muscle in.

I'd hope this would end up snapping a lot of people out of it, but as we see here and across the internet, once the brainworms take hold (figure of speech, not the ones from Star Trek II) they just seem to nod along with just about anything. Some sort of sunk cost fallacy related to belief?

"If I stop believing now then I'll have been wrong all this time, just a little more belief and I might end up vindicated"

[lionel_messias]

Yes he is a scientist:

His areas of research include autoimmunity and inflammation, cancer and leukemia, hematopoiesis, and using computation for network and systems immunology.

He is not a materials specialist. He’s not an astrophysicist. As far as I’m aware, he knows fuck all about relativity or quantum physics and the limitations those sciences place on interstellar or intergalactic travel. He clearly knows nothing about the design of any kind of occupied space vehicle.


He has abandoned any pretence of applying the scientific method to his “research” into scraps and dog ends of material that at best might be remnants of meteorite activity and at worst complete fabrications.

Travis Taylor (chief scientist for Skinwalker Ranch) is better qualified (astrophysics and aerospace engineering) and he is off the whackadoodle scale, tarting himself for TV ratings.

Being a scientist means fuck all if you abandon science.

You claim that our positions are essentially the same but they aren’t. My position is falsifiable (and therefore scientific) in that I am skeptical based on all available evidence and the limitations on interstellar or intergalactic travel, but that skepticism would be set aside in the face of incontrovertible evidence (fuzzy images, third hand testimony etc doesn’t cut it).


Your position (as demonstrated regularly in this topic) is entirely unfalsifiable (and therefore pseudo-scientific). There is no way that your hypothesis can be disproved. The AARO report is fabricated. Grusch and others are being silenced by threats. The fuzzy pictures are just the ones we’re allowed to see - the good ones re being held back. The supporting radar data from the tic-tac events is suppressed. The bodies and the alien technology are being held by the USG and/or Lockheed. If the press/senators/media are ever allowed in and the technology has disappeared it’s because it’s all been moved. If faster than light travel is impossible then it stands to reason that the ETs have superior technology we can’t possibly imagine. Or they aren’t from another star system - they’re from another dimension… and on, and on, and on we go.

UFOs are relatively harmless and since I’ve come off Twitter it doesn’t register that much. But then I get links to things like the tweets of Chris Lehto, who seemed relatively sane a year ago but is now utterly demented and in David Icke territory. His obsession with UFOs and discovering the “real” truth has completely destroyed his sanity. He’s released a series of YouTube. Videos where he explains his theory of everything, babbling about the density of light being the fourth dimension.


To quote Stevie Wonder (not a scientist): When you believe in things you don’t understand, you suffer.

Hey. Sorry, what is my hypothesis?

I'm just very engaged in the topic. The guys I continually invoke are Ryan Graves and Christopher Mellon.

Sober, quite dull men who seem to not be able to let this go, for some reason.

David Grusch, I'm perplexed by, he's a crazy thriller novel just on his own. Either he's the best plant/psyop in 80 years or his critical facilities are waay lower than they should he OR he will have to bring the goods and be backed by scores of others, themselves bearing hard evidence.

The man is not dull, whatever happens!

[Jiminy Cricket]

Hey. Sorry, what is my hypothesis?

I'm just very engaged in the topic. The guys I continually invoke are Ryan Graves and Christopher Mellon.

Sober, quite dull men who seem to not be able to let this go, for some reason.

David Grusch, I'm perplexed by, he's a crazy thriller novel just on his own. Either he's the best plant/psyop in 80 years or he's critical facilities are several leagues lower than they should he OR he will have to bring to goods and be backed by scores of others, themselves bearing hard evidence.

The man is not dull, whatever happens!

Genuinely, I have no idea what that means.

[thejbs]

If you all think this nonsense is bad now, wait until the fake AI videos of UFOs proliferate and further muddy the waters of sanity. I give that two years tops.

[rob1966]

If you all think this nonsense is bad now, wait until the fake AI videos of UFOs proliferate and further muddy the waters of sanity. I give that two years tops.

You've just given me a money making idea

[lionel_messias]

Don't currently believe in any of the shite that is going on in UAP world. All seems to lead to nothing.

Thoroughly fed up with it. I probably left it alone for 10-15 years last time I felt like that and it came back, so...

[Jiminy Cricket]

Don't currently believe in any of the shite that is going on in UAP world. All seems to lead to nothing.

Thoroughly fed up with it. I probably left it alone for 10-15 years last time I felt like that and it came back, so...

Hi Lionel,

I know I have taken the piss a bit, but genuine question here: are coming around to the idea that it all is a massive grift (though some of those promoting this stuff might be plain delusional)?

I am not suggesting that the big names UFOlogy are coordinating their efforts (in a common grift), just that they are natural allies. And each of them might be unsure if the others are fellow grifters or just deluded. (So best to not say the quiet part out loud.)

Anyway, I do find your statement there interesting.

[thejbs]

Don't currently believe in any of the shite that is going on in UAP world. All seems to lead to nothing.

Thoroughly fed up with it. I probably left it alone for 10-15 years last time I felt like that and it came back, so...

Fair play. It takes a lot of character to shift beliefs like that and admit it here.

[lionel_messias]

Hi Lionel,

I know I have taken the piss a bit, but genuine question here: are coming around to the idea that it all is a massive grift (though some of those promoting this stuff might be plain delusional)?

I am not suggesting that the big names UFOlogy are coordinating their efforts (in a common grift), just that they are natural allies. And each of them might be unsure if the others are fellow grifters or just deluded. (So best to not say the quiet part out loud.)

Anyway, I do find your statement there interesting.

Yeah.......So, personally I don't believe the whole thing is a massive grift. There are almost certainly some grifters there who might make a bit of money and get attention on the internet.

But there are a small number of folk, for whom grifting on the internet would make no sense whatsoever. Chris Mellon would be one of those. I bet he has $millions in the bank, and his security establishment/government pals probably move the conversation swiftly on from UAP at parties and barbecues.

I guess I'm feeling this might be an unprovable mystery and the loudest shouters might now be prolonging the story, for no good purpose.

Give you an example, Lue Elizondo does indeed have a book coming out [I can hear you now in the chorus so I'll sing it with you, "HE'S GRIFTING FOR MONEY, SEE!!!!!!!!!!"] and when that book comes out, if it does not come with significant, world-altering evidence, man, I'm just not sure...

With what David Grusch came out with, I was interested; but he needs some cavalry coming up besides him to back it up, otherwise I'm not interested in hanging with an un-substantiated account for years and years. He has to complete his mission, be uncovered as a liar or deliver the goods.

[lobsterboy]

Nah mate.
The whole field is populated with grifters.
They just want you to buy books, watch their TV series on netflix.
That's the reality.
They know people want to believe.
Its like religion, just selling people lies.

[thejbs]

Having millions on a bank doesn’t mean you won’t grift. Look at Donald Trump. People with millions in the bank appear to only want more millions in the bank. It’s also much easier to grift if you’re financially secure.

[BarryCrocker]

Well i'm in. 

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/eDmdREn7VDo" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/eDmdREn7VDo</a>

[lionel_messias]

Don't currently believe in any of the shite that is going on in UAP world. All seems to lead to nothing.

Thoroughly fed up with it. I probably left it alone for 10-15 years last time I felt like that and it came back, so...

Nah mate.
The whole field is populated with grifters.
They just want you to buy books, watch their TV series on netflix.
That's the reality.
They know people want to believe.
Its like religion, just selling people lies.

A lot of certainty in your post.

Reality tends to be murkier.

[Valore]

A lot of certainty in your post.

Reality tends to be murkier.

I think people who want to function more efficiently without all the excess nonsense clogging up their daily lives lean on the fact that you're right, nothing is 100% certain, but treating 99% certainties like they're 50/50s or worse is a million more times more shit for your life.

[Jiminy Cricket]

A lot of certainty in your post.

Reality tends to be murkier.

I appreciate that you are (at least somewhat) reassessing your position, Lionel, but I am with Valore on this.

I think people who want to function more efficiently without all the excess nonsense clogging up their daily lives lean on the fact that you're right, nothing is 100% certain, but treating 99% certainties like they're 50/50s or worse is a million more times more shit for your life.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Well i'm in. 

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/eDmdREn7VDo" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/eDmdREn7VDo</a>

Well. That's eight minutes and thirty-one seconds I'll not get back. Absolute moronic drivel.