Author Topic: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 3-0 Soonalan  (Read 36474 times)

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 3-0 Soonalan
« Reply #40 on: January 3, 2013, 08:16:45 pm »
That's twice in a row now that we've gone in for the half-time team talk with the game already won. That's what Title-winning sides do.

OK, enough of that.

The only disappointment, really, was that we didn't score twice as many. A 6-0 scoreline wouldn't have been unjust in the end. This was the best performance of the season and yet it was still incomplete. If we'd been quicker and more accurate passing the ball in the final third we'd have been looking at a major trouncing. I thought Sterling was a tad lucky with the first goal. His run was beautiful - born of an understanding of what Suarez could and would do - but he unnecessarily delayed his lob. That extra bounce might have cost him. In  the second half he hesitated again when put clean through and the ball was squirted nowhere in particular. Hit the ball early Raheem! Great strikers beat the clock. They strike the ball a fraction of a second before the goalie thinks they're going to. They hit the ball in their stride. Like Suarez did for his first. Toe poke the bugger if you have to. Ronaldo (the great one) made a career out of using his big toe.   

Henderson has vaulted over Shelvey in the last month. Partly that's because Shelvey needs an appointment at the opticians (how else do you explain such a technically able footballer miscuing all the time?) But mainly it's because Hendo is a learner and has decidely advanced his game. Against QPR he turned on the ball to feed Suarez for the first. Earlier in the season he would have sent the ball back to his defence or out to the flanks. Corky wonders whether Gerrard has the proper 'swivel eyes'. It's a neat observation. But it's even more pertinent when it comes to Hendo. Too often he hasn't checked what's happening around him and his information is out of date by the time he receives the ball. However, now there are signs that Henderson is learning to receive and turn in the same movement. If he masters this we'll have a player because once facing the right way he becomes, by virtue of his pace and ease on the ball, a dangerous player. I'd be a little bit worried if I were Shelvey. Jordan's quicker and more athletic. But he's showing signs of greater intelligence too. Soon JonJo will be left with nothing but superior self-belief - always a dubious virtue when there's nothing concrete to back it up.

Roy's right about the disguised balls. All passes, even the most regulation and mundane, ought to have some disguise on them. It's important to throw your opponents on to the wrong foot, however briefly. But there were seriously disguised balls in the final third last night. Much of this was down to the excellent movement off the ball - from the immense Luis Suarez, obviously, but from our other front-runners too. I thought it was Henderson spearing out to the right wing for the final goal (Hinesy, above, said it was Downing and he's probably right). But whoever it was, it was delightful. The run prised apart the two Roker centre backs and allowed Gerrard to pick his spot as Luis steamed into the gap. The pass itself was gorgeous. Just the right amount of side on the ball, just the right amount of fade. It was a further reminder, too, that Suarez should never be shifted from that central position.

Pepe was great. Not just the timely saves, but the superior distribution (with hand and foot). He's a natural footballer. He, for one, always puts beautiful disguise on his passes. He passes early too - so that if he catches the ball high up in the air and sees an opportunity to counter-attack the ball is released with the downward movement of his arms (as if he's  taking a throw-in). Reina absolutely understands the killer aspect of an early ball. One second saved back there is a second potentially banked for Suarez further up the field.

Wisdom was excellent too. He doesn't join the attack a lot but he's clever in his timing so that when he does it counts. He's so bloody fast and strong too. It's hard to believe the bloke is still a teenager.

Lucas, Johnson and Agger were wonderful, as you'd expect. Skrtel gave me the kittens a couple of times (as you'd expect?). And Allen showed what might be possible playing in and around the opposition box. He's a gifted footballer, no question.

Finally, it's becoming a bit fashionable to say 'they didn't turn up' whenever we stuff a side like Sunderland. But Sunderland turned up against Man City and QPR turned up against Chelsea. Might it therefore have something to do with the fact that we 'didn't let them play'?
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Offline dernaroy

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 3-0 Soonalan
« Reply #41 on: January 3, 2013, 08:31:00 pm »
Before I post (because I'm still working on it), quick question - what formation does everyone think we were playing? Not in terms of the team sheet, but just in terms of the roles players took up and the spaces they operated in? It was an interesting game for that question alone.

I thought it was very interesting when Allen came on for Sterling. I just could not work out what way we were playing? But I thought then when Suso came on to kind of balance things out again it appeared to me like we were playing a 4-1-4-1 for the last 20-25 mins with Downing Gerrard Allen Suso across the four and Lucas holding in behind. When we attacked it seemed like all of the 4 attacked with Suarez and then when we defended it felt like we dropped off a little more than we had been doing in the first half and beginning of the second half - perhaps to conserve energy and/or kill the game off once we had gone 3-0 up.

I thought when Allen came on it would be a cert that it was our chance to try Gerrard up front but then it looked like we were playing with 4 central midfielders instead. In hindsight now, maybe we switched to 4-1-4-1 at this point with Henderson moving out right until he was taken off?
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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 3-0 Soonalan
« Reply #42 on: January 3, 2013, 08:43:18 pm »
Home game against a bottom half team, though. Let's not go mad.

like Chelsea last night? All EPL teams are well managed and can beat any other team...........there are no guarantees.
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Offline murdell

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 3-0 Soonalan
« Reply #43 on: January 3, 2013, 09:06:00 pm »
The most pleasing thing to see is our build up play has obviously been drilled into us. The thing looked knitted together, players knowing instinctively where another would be. Sometimes you look at a team and its just a disjointed mess especially in build up play.

Delighted for Henderson, I always felt there was a player there and he needed confidence. He just gives us much better balance than Shelvey in terms of mobility and intelligence.

Gerrard was bossing it, he was sitting deep and I think Sunderland were a bit afraid to press him deep because we can go the other way and play through midfield just as good and that would leave them exposed centrally.

Suarez, just amazing, his celebration with Sterling was class too. There is a good spirit in the team.
All in all delighted with how we are progressing.

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 3-0 Soonalan
« Reply #44 on: January 3, 2013, 09:22:28 pm »
like Chelsea last night? All EPL teams are well managed and can beat any other team...........there are no guarantees.

Agreed, but if you have any pretensions to success in the league, and you're looking down the fixture list, Sunderland at home would be viewed quite differently to Man City away. I think we are still entitled to expect to win our home games against lower placed teams. You don't always but you should most of the time. Mind you, if you look back at 2012...

Offline Red Bird

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 3-0 Soonalan
« Reply #45 on: January 3, 2013, 09:28:58 pm »
Not a bad performance at all; funny how a team which had just beaten Man City. And for the first in many games, we've had runners ahead of Suarez which kept Sunderland's defenders bloody honest (we made them look crap). Henderson needs another goal to convince himself that his advanced position is more than just making numbers in attack. But his off-the-ball work has come in leaps and bounds. Johnson has to be England's belting full-back while Reina was outstanding in front of goal. And we seem to have developed a structure to our attacking play; that's been missing for some time.

Two minor quibbles which would have been full-blown moans had we not won; Gerrard, who otherwise had an excellent match, still lets runners go past him far too easily; that chance for MacLean after Sterling's goal came from his strolling around the D while attackers joined in. And Downing doesn't have to cross all the time, does he? His decision-making has improved bit he still prefer the lofted ball when a hard low cross in a crowded penalty area could be more effective.

Other than that, I've not enjoyed a match this during this season.
« Last Edit: January 3, 2013, 09:30:41 pm by Red Bird »

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 3-0 Soonalan
« Reply #46 on: January 3, 2013, 09:31:46 pm »
Liverpool v Sunderland

Rather than focus on the game itself as a game of two teams, I think it is important to focus more on Liverpool after this game, because quite frankly that game was the best example of what Rodgers is looking to achieve on a broader scale. The game had everything – Possession, Pressure, Goals and Shots on Target, Mobility, Balance and more importantly, Cohesion. It was not even a perfect performance. The overall key factor from the game, from a fans point of view, is that Rodgers must be allowed to realize his vision – both from the fan support aspect and from the owner’s perspective. He needs time, encouragement and funds (allied to control of who comes in and who goes out). The reason for this is simple – if he doesn’t get the support and time here, another big club will give it to him, and he could create something special there instead.

“Death by Passing” and Sunderland’s System -

What we saw yesterday was not quite the culmination of Rodgers’ work, but a major pointer in the right direction. It was, for all intents and purposes, “Death by Passing”. People are disinclined here to give the team and manager any credit for these recent dominant wins, claiming the lack of talent of the other team on the day. The truth, though, is somewhere in the middle between them being bad and us being good. The QPR that looked soulless and lost in the last game went out and beat Chelsea away. The Fulham that were tanked 4-0 were 2-1 winners AT West Bromwich Albion, a few people’s dark horses for a Champions League spot.

And so it was that the Sunderland who have picked up form in recent games and have beaten the League Champions were made to look like pub league amateurs constantly chasing the ball like a cat chasing a ball of string. Certainly, they didn’t play to their full potential, but once they missed their second clear chance on goal, they weren’t seeing much of the ball for the rest of the game – a fluid midfield, a suffocating front line and the engine of Jordan Henderson made sure of that. For the sake of fairness, let’s look at how Sunderland ended up having to play:



The first thing we can see is that their midfield and forward shape were dragged all over the pitch. Because of the strength of Sterling and Suarez connecting, McClean had to play deep and double up on Raheem. Although they ostensibly played a 4-4-1-1, and although their back four with Colback in front kept their shape at least, the midfield and forward set-up was a shapeless mess in reality, being forced to chase the ball all over the width and depth of the field. And if they thought they had some respite from the possession at any time once Liverpool got beyond the 6th pass, there was Gerrard dropping deep into the right defensive third space to receive and launch passes Suarez.

Although Sunderland have been prone to sitting deep under O’Neill, the quality of ball and player mobility from Liverpool forced the back four to push up just to stay connected to their rudderless midfield. This is what created the ample space for Liverpool to attack into. The quality of the combination patterns, the direct passes from Gerrard and Suarez, and the midfield runs from deep ensured that no matter what plans Sunderland had for the game, our early goal would ensure that their plans would be a footnote to the game, rather than the narration of it. They didn’t play to their potential, but to give Liverpool and the manager credit, they weren’t allowed to. To do that, you have to get the ball, and when you get it, you have to attack an unbalanced defence. Thankfully, they neither got much of the ball, nor did they face a shapeless and open backline.

Liverpool’s System –


I asked earlier if anyone wanted to hazard a guess at what our actual formation played out as, according to player roles rather than what was on paper. Most guessed at a 4-2-3-1, and there wouldn’t be anything wrong with that assessment, as there was a solidity to our play that would indicate that. However, the solidity, I believe, came more from the balance of the team through the thirds and in the channels, and we covered the field very, very well, without sacrificing defensive solidity. For all intents and purposes, we lined up tactically like we have done for a lot of the season (and which I proposed in the Preview thread):




We can see the high-positioned back four, the defensive midfielder, the runner, and the “Controller”/Playmaker in central midfield, and the recessed wingers/inside forwards with Suarez central and high up front. We didn’t stray too much from that shape at all, except where we DID make an alteration, we created almost a whole new system which was a hybrid of systems that the players seemed comfortable with:




What we first notice here is that Lucas played closer to Agger and Skrtel than he usually does, which had the effect of plugging that central gap I talked about in the Back-Three thread. Agger and Skrtel also played relatively closer to the central channel, splitting only on certain triggers (Reina on goalkicks, Reina receiving a back pass, etc). After the ball entered the central and attacking thirds, Agger and Skrtel became a bit more conservative. This is something a few posters mentioned in that Back-Three thread, including myself, as a way of mitigating that large space in the middle. Combine that with Lucas playing deeper than usual, and we had a central defensive channel covered by three players no more than 10 yards apart, meaning we covered 20-30 yards of central space with 3 players, rather than leaving a 30 yard space being covered by one (Lucas). This allowed the fullbacks to comfortably get forward into the attack, as evident by the number of forays forward into the edge of the box that both Wisdom and Johnson made, with both having good chances to shoot on target. With Lucas dropping back, though, and the fullbacks being wide, Gerrard found himself with a lot more space to drop into to receive the ball, allowing him to assess the runs of the forward players, or switch the play our of pressure in the channels when necessary.

The second part of this space created was due to the unrelenting pressure that Henderson put on the Sunderland midfielders and back four. In all, the workload and positional play of the trio showed how a Rodgers midfield works when the right people are in the right positions. You can almost imagine why a player like Sahin would appeal to Rodgers in this scenario, as the runner and the holding mid would create a huge pocket of space for the controller to “quarterback” the game. Up front, Downing had another good game, working hard, showing a bit of flash, and a good understanding with him, Henderson and Suarez has been recently evident. Sterling and Suarez have a clear mentor relationship, and that could be a forward partnership to look out for over the years. The only positional relationship which didn’t materialize was between Wisdom and Sterling, who clearly didn’t know each other’s style of play too well, and didn’t seem to be on the same page the way Johnson and Downing usually are. All-in-all, the shape of the team and the play was as close as we’ve been to the ideal Rodgers team this season.

Echoes of History –


However, the positives don’t end there. If we look again at the formation, and the roles played, we can see from the diagrams that although we played a 4-3-3 on paper, in terms of positions and tasks, we actually played a 3-4-3. The gap between midfield still existed, even though the gap between the two central defenders was consolidated with Lucas. The workrate of Gerrard and Henderson, though, more or less nullified that space, except for the one passage of play when they cut through us with some good give and go’s. What is noticeable is that our front three pressed Sunderland into their defensive third quite aggressively, backed up by another line of three (Johnson – Henderson – Wisdom), with Gerrard almost sweeping up behind them, and Lucas, Agger and Skrtel taking care of the offside space.

In effect, we were pressing their back four with seven players, and when we won the ball, we opened up and created good width and depth. We can see this by the positions of the team across the three channels – the central channel is well stocked with the spine of the team – Lucas, Gerrard, Henderson, and Suarez. The wide channels were equally balanced with at least Downing-Johnson and Sterling-Wisdom doubling up in the channels, with Agger and Skrtel playing half-and-half roles in defending the channels and the central defensive zone. In effect, we were playing a 3-4-3 (or a 3-1-3-3 to be technical, with Gerrard as the “1”). This was encouraging, because positiionally on paper, we weren’t playing with three central defenders, we didn’t have a midfield four, and the two outside attackers were true wingers on their strong sides. If you’re an opposition manager and team preparing in any way all week to play against a 4-3-3, then these positional changes were really going to make you dizzy. It’s a very difficult formation to play against, and it has a good solid precedent in the past from one of the great teams that could be said to be a model almost more than Barca are for what we’re trying to achieve: the Ajax team of 1995. If we look below...




…. We can see that Ajax played positionally much the same way as we did against Sunderland, with the main difference being the more dedicated central positioning of Blind at the back and Rijkaard being the general. Similarly, the outside central mids were actual central midfielders, but as someone pointed out earlier, it seemed at times that Johnson and Wisdom came into the middle of the field as part of the initial pressure phase. We definitely played more compact in the first pressure phase, both in open play and in defence of free-kicks (a trait which almost let Sunderland in to score). This shape-change helped us to win the ball back as it put players in areas that Sunderland didn’t expect. It threw their shape off and had Sunderland chasing shadows. In much the same way, Ajax would keep the ball moving and drop Litmanen into central positions to make their diamond midifield into a flat midfield, causing the opposition to reassess their own shape as they now had a new arrangement to face. The constant moving of the ball under Van Gaal was something that relied on good balance, good width, coverage of both the thirds of the field and the channels, and Van Gaal felt that a 3-4-3 did that job better than other formations, even Ajax’s historically prized 4-3-3. But it was also flexible, as have seen, and could even be changed to a 4-3-3 by dropping Rijkaard into the defense and having Blind play as a sweeper. If anyone wants to see the potential for how Rodgers wants us to play, don’t watch Barcelona – watch Ajax in the 1995 Champions League and the Eredivisie. That was the archetype of “Death by Passing”.

Conclusion –


In the fullness of the game, I think we saw some real glimpses of the Rodgers vision being played out for all to see. There was no “guff”, no soundbites, no “talking”, and no buzzwords. It was Rodgers’ vision writ large for the people of Liverpool to see – extreme circulation of the ball, temporization, pressure defence, balance in all thirds and channels of the field, a central spine, and a system that every player understands, from starters to bench players. Even the addition of Allen, Suso and Carragher didn’t change the patterns of play. That, my friends, is real coaching. The players believed, the manager believes, the message is being perfected, and the addition of top quality will only see the plan getting better. For the future, I think a lot more teams are going to come to Anfield and be made to look “rubbish”. Rodgers is building a fortress, brick by brick, pass by pass. It needs some time, but it needs a good foundation, and the lumps we took early in the season in order to get the system machinated will be well worth it – if not this season, then in the seasons to come.
« Last Edit: January 4, 2013, 04:16:30 am by PhaseofPlay »
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Offline iresh

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 3-0 Soonalan
« Reply #47 on: January 3, 2013, 09:36:21 pm »

Wisdom was excellent too. He doesn't join the attack a lot but he's clever in his timing so that when he does it counts. He's so bloody fast and strong too. It's hard to believe the bloke is still a teenager.


Wisdom seems to balance the side whenever he's on the pitch. People on the forum often comment about our split centre backs and how having a third will help us. Well, I think when Wisdom's on the pitch he does that for us. Supports the CB's well making us better all around.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 3-0 Soonalan
« Reply #48 on: January 3, 2013, 09:36:37 pm »
I thought it was very interesting when Allen came on for Sterling. I just could not work out what way we were playing? But I thought then when Suso came on to kind of balance things out again it appeared to me like we were playing a 4-1-4-1 for the last 20-25 mins with Downing Gerrard Allen Suso across the four and Lucas holding in behind. When we attacked it seemed like all of the 4 attacked with Suarez and then when we defended it felt like we dropped off a little more than we had been doing in the first half and beginning of the second half - perhaps to conserve energy and/or kill the game off once we had gone 3-0 up.

I thought when Allen came on it would be a cert that it was our chance to try Gerrard up front but then it looked like we were playing with 4 central midfielders instead. In hindsight now, maybe we switched to 4-1-4-1 at this point with Henderson moving out right until he was taken off?

It took me a few minutes to figure it out, but if you look at my post above you'll see that we were, really, playing a 3-4-3 for all intents and purposes. Once I figured this out and stopped looking for four in the back, I worked out that we were playing a 3-4-2-1 almost: Skrtel -Lucas-Agger, Wisdom-Gerrard-Allen-Johnson, Downing-Henderson, Suarez. This is how it seemed to play out, with Suso just replacing Henderson's position when he came on, and Carragher for Skrtel was like-for-like, positionally. I thought we showed great flexibility in the game, but not sure how much of it was intended and how much of it was down to the player attributed naturally shifting the system?
« Last Edit: January 3, 2013, 09:46:26 pm by PhaseofPlay »
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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 3-0 Soonalan
« Reply #49 on: January 3, 2013, 09:41:16 pm »
Wisdom seems to balance the side whenever he's on the pitch. People on the forum often comment about our split centre backs and how having a third will help us. Well, I think when Wisdom's on the pitch he does that for us. Supports the CB's well making us better all around.

Pretty similar to what United did with Brown or O'shea not so long ago to allow Evra the kind of freedom Johnson is afforded.
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Offline murdell

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 3-0 Soonalan
« Reply #50 on: January 3, 2013, 09:53:35 pm »
Brilliant post phaseofplay, its the clear defined drilled patterns of play that has me excited. Like you said this is proper coaching. I share the optimism, when this gets all the ingredients I think its going to be very special.

Offline locultom

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 3-0 Soonalan
« Reply #51 on: January 3, 2013, 10:01:15 pm »
Nice analysis PoP

Where we have looked more solid since Villa (Stoke omitted where I thought the manager should have picked a specific system for the game) and this has looked more of a 4231. Last night it looked like this to begin with but on closer examination it was our usual 433 with a 2-1 shape in the midfield. Rodgers was, i thought, subtlety changing Gerrard's position when he was talking to him just after half-time. In addition, when Allen came on he clearly signalled a shift from 2-1 to 1-2.

When you describe a 3-4-3 you are of course accurate but this is really only a reference to us in possession rather than defending or in transition. What seems to have happened for me is the 'machination' of the system has been partially achieved by an over-exaggeration of our positioning when in possession, which whilst serving to embed the ideas more quickly, has left us a little over-exposed. It looks like we have very subtlety reined it in. Narrow the centre backs slightly; 'hold' the holder; narrow the fullbacks; have a less creative but more energetic advanced midfielder. Of course getting the right players in their natural positions in the midfield helps.

The system is certainly bedding-in and proved extremely disruptive to Sunderland. O'Neil changed his shape a couple of times and on each occasion had to revert to containment. It was a really enjoyable game and very encouraging as players are looking like they are gaining an innate understanding of their roles.
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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 3-0 Soonalan
« Reply #52 on: January 3, 2013, 10:07:19 pm »
Phase, aweseme stuff as always.  I do have a question for you (and everyone else).  Having Henderson in front of Gerrard seems, on paper, counter productive, and yet it seems to really, really work.  Normally, you would want your playmaker tucked in behind Suarez, but in this instance it seems that Gerrard is better in the middle of two hard working, ball winning central midfielders, instead of ahead of them.

Is this something unique to the way Gerrard plays, i.e. does he prefer to play deeper where he can see the entire field, or is this something more aligned with a Rodgers' philosophy? 

I know that I, and many others on here have said it, but Gerrard and Shelvey don't play well together.  Henderson in front of Gerrard seems like some kind of magical tonic that really allows Gerrard to dominate.

Thougts?
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 3-0 Soonalan
« Reply #53 on: January 3, 2013, 10:11:23 pm »
Phase, aweseme stuff as always.  I do have a question for you (and everyone else).  Having Henderson in front of Gerrard seems, on paper, counter productive, and yet it seems to really, really work.  Normally, you would want your playmaker tucked in behind Suarez, but in this instance it seems that Gerrard is better in the middle of two hard working, ball winning central midfielders, instead of ahead of them.

Is this something unique to the way Gerrard plays, i.e. does he prefer to play deeper where he can see the entire field, or is this something more aligned with a Rodgers' philosophy? 

I know that I, and many others on here have said it, but Gerrard and Shelvey don't play well together.  Henderson in front of Gerrard seems like some kind of magical tonic that really allows Gerrard to dominate.

Thougts?

It literally depends on how he makes the play, so to speak. Gerrard's range of passing is better long than short. Lucas, on the other hand, is an excellent short passer into space. Xavi and Iniesta are the same, while Alonso has better long-range vision. The deeper role suits Gerrard's range of passing and natural vision, but it doesn't suit his defensive abilities, which is why having the runner in front of him works well, because the ball is forced wide before it comes near Gerrard's zone
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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 3-0 Soonalan
« Reply #54 on: January 3, 2013, 10:25:07 pm »
First off, Hendo was never a flop. He was bought in at a young age at a high price, but he was always a prospect first and foremost. We now see some of the potential he was bought into deliver. Whenever he has gotten the chance this season, he has delivered. He's making our team click and he's bringing balance to our midfield. He was excellent yesterday.

However, I have three things I can't figure out.

1. Why do we always seem to lose it right after our first goal? When we go ahead, the outcome of the rest of the game depends on whether the opposition will score on the major chance we'll hand to them right after they've kicked off. They got the biggest chance of the game right after our goal to 1-0, and I can assure you, with our weak mentality, a goal then would've spelled disaster for the remainder of the game. We need to defend better. In the first half we gave them free kick after free kick on the edge of the box, and they simply got too close to getting back into the game. While we attack better than in years, our defensive side looks worse than it has in a long time, despite the clean sheet. And it's certainly much worse than it is on paper, where we should have one of the best defenses in the league.

2. Why do we play so much better when Henderson is involved? It has been too many times in order to be a coincidence. He makes everybody look better in understanding each other and making the right runs, but it even seems like he gives a boost to their technical ability! Yesterday we saw players floating past their markers and control the ball much better than they have for a long time. Is it just confidence? Or is it Henderson? And how can it be?!

3. Where did our amazing efficiency suddenly come from? Last year we hit the post or shot right at the keeper at any chance, but yesterday we actually managed to get the ball in the goal on our five biggest chances (counting two disallowed goals). Who's in charge in that field!?

Also, yes, Sunderland is in the bottom of the table, but our biggest problem the last couple of years has been that we can't beat the small teams in the smaller games, while beating the top 4 for fun. I think this is a healthier and more sustainable way to evolve than the other way around, just like I think it's a welcome chance that it's now our attack that leads the way while the defense is more questionable.

So basically, most of my confusion is down to not being able to comprehend how fast we evolve under Rodgers, and quite frankly we could do worse than that.

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 3-0 Soonalan
« Reply #55 on: January 3, 2013, 10:51:30 pm »
PhaseofPlay, can I ask you where you get those positional maps? They're very helpful in getting formations across and it makes you think about the rigidity of the 442/4231 conceptions we have. However, while I can imagine that sort of technology being available in Liverpool, 2013, I would have my doubts about Amsterdam 1995...

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 3-0 Soonalan
« Reply #56 on: January 3, 2013, 10:59:32 pm »
Phase of play has basically said everything we could possibly say about the game.

He is a thread killer ;)


Shame we don't get this kind of analysis in the media.  Love reading his work.
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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 3-0 Soonalan
« Reply #57 on: January 3, 2013, 11:08:21 pm »
Phase of play has basically said everything we could possibly say about the game.

He is a thread killer ;)


Shame we don't get this kind of analysis in the media.  Love reading his work.

I'll echo that.  Really appreciate the time you put in to your analyses Phase of Play.

We were discussing the 3-4-3 in possession in your back three thread, and one of the things you stated was that you would prefer us to play three natural CBs rather than have Lucas drop in as he didn't drop deep enough.  Were you encouraged by how he's adapted already?

Ideally, I'd prefer to keep this way of doing it, because (as you say) the opposition are kept guessing and we can switch positions as the games develop without swapping players.

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 3-0 Soonalan
« Reply #58 on: January 3, 2013, 11:53:32 pm »
What a thread.

"First pressure phase" - I can guess, but how do you define it? The moment possession is conceded? The trigger to press?

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 3-0 Soonalan
« Reply #59 on: January 3, 2013, 11:56:26 pm »
On Ajax 95, I'm sure it's a point Degs has made in the past.

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 3-0 Soonalan
« Reply #60 on: January 4, 2013, 12:03:48 am »
On Ajax 95, I'm sure it's a point Degs has made in the past.
Cracking post, I'm mad busy at the minute but I'll throw some thoughts up regarding the Ajax 95 here soon, although to be honest it's all been said above. My main point would be the Jari/Hendo difference though and I think Suso will ultimately be a better fit there.

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 3-0 Soonalan
« Reply #61 on: January 4, 2013, 12:07:31 am »
That central 4 of Ajax - Rijkaard, Seedorf, Davids, Litmanen. Tidy!

Who is the front 3 in that diagram - Overmars, Ronad de Boer and Finidi George?

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 3-0 Soonalan
« Reply #62 on: January 4, 2013, 12:08:07 am »
Just to pick up again on the inconsistency thing from the last Round Table. I thought we started today far slower than we did against Villa. If McClean finishes and Sterling doesn't  If the ref gives a foul on Suarez and Reina gets beaten on his near post instead of magicking the ball away then we have a similar result. Instead we once again got a platform and our play in the second half was some of the most entertaining I've seen from us for years. Hugely enjoyable stuff.

We are still a brittle work in progress but really I think we have got to the point now where any idiot drawing comparisons with Hodgson or claiming there is no sign of progression should be simply banned for being a footballing dunce.

We still don't know if BR can address that innate fragility and if he cannot then we will frustrate as often as delight but if in the moments when it all works you cannot see glimpses of a potentially fantastic future then a trip to specsavers might be in order.
That is the key, init? We played really well against Villa in the first 30 mins until the sucker punches came in. Quite rightly put - had Sterling not scored, had McLean been more lucky, had Pepe not saved, etc... it could be the same thing again. Something that BR will need to address.

It's been a long time coming since the days of Rafa's cup comp pomp that everyone in the lineup played well. Easily our best game of the season. Sunderland are not Fulham and they were deflated after the 3rd goal. Thank god, BR is not making bold predictions of challenging for top 4 after 2 impressive wins on a trot! Need to give Mancs a good lesson!!!

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 3-0 Soonalan
« Reply #63 on: January 4, 2013, 12:15:13 am »
Phase, is your first name Brendan?

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 3-0 Soonalan
« Reply #64 on: January 4, 2013, 12:16:02 am »
Liverpool v Sunderland

Every time someone rags on what we are trying to do they should be redirected to this post.

Superbly written and crafted PhaseofPlay  :)
Just clicked on the main board and my virus scanner came back with this

"When we visited this site, we found it exhibited one or more risky behaviors."


:lmao

Strip his knighthood https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/47770

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 3-0 Soonalan
« Reply #65 on: January 4, 2013, 12:36:58 am »
Actually, I think we debated the Ajax influence on the system when he was appointed (the spine in echelon, and so forth). Is that aspect borne out? In a way, that's a restatement of the "disguised balls/round the corner passes" question on the first page.

Here in fact: http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=294288.0
« Last Edit: January 4, 2013, 12:39:14 am by royhendo »

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 3-0 Soonalan
« Reply #66 on: January 4, 2013, 12:42:58 am »
That central 4 of Ajax - Rijkaard, Seedorf, Davids, Litmanen. Tidy!

Who is the front 3 in that diagram - Overmars, Ronad de Boer and Finidi George?

Yep.  Kluivert was a sub for Litmanen in the CL final in 1995 and Kanu would have been in the matchday squads at that time.  Decent squad  ;)
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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 3-0 Soonalan
« Reply #67 on: January 4, 2013, 01:13:07 am »


Definite contender for one  of the best-ever (football-related) posts on RAWK.
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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 3-0 Soonalan
« Reply #68 on: January 4, 2013, 02:23:04 am »
Agree with the post that pointed out some of our frailties. In the first half Sunderland could have got a couple and that was down to poor marking so defensively all is not exactly sound.

Two instances stick out of course - the one-two which gave McClean his chance and the cross where everyone was just ball watching that Pepe saved. We seem to give opponents at least one or two of these a game and up until now we have been getting punished for them. I think I'd sit down with the defensive unit and have a bit of a chat about getting too far ahead of ourselves despite the scoreline.

Of course all those points seem slightly moot considering how we effectively dominated from being 1-0 in front.

Lucas is clearly still feeling himself back into the games but I think that he's about 85% there.

The positives of course are the way we dominated once getting that first goal. Suarez at the moment is almost unplayable and long may it continue. Just looking back at him over the last month or two and the change in his attitude he's had with respect to going over at any touch and I think it's benefiting him, the team and may even bode well for his and the clubs reputation. So something has changed and I like it and I think we should credit to both Rodgers and Suarez for the change in attitude.

Downing was impressive again and it's good to see him getting his confidence back. It solves one of our problems at the moment but it also presents us with another since we have just signed Sturridge. Readily admit that I haven't been overly supportive in his time with us but it's good to see that there is a proper LW under 18 months of at best mediocre wing play. His resurgence is again something that we have to credit Rodgers for. At the very least now we have a decent backup at LW.

Sterling did OK but the lad needs to beef himself up. Had a couple of good moments and the goal but I'm still waiting for him to explode onto the scene. I've seen videos of him absolutely tormenting him backlines at reserve level so I'm sure his time will come. Still only 18 and if we can count on him to get a few more goals this season we should be alright.

Gerrard was brilliant in this game but I'm still convinced he could be better utilised higher up the field and that he could have a more consistent impact over the course of 90 minutes there. I believe that he does pressure better from the front and being the one who can spot a cute little pass to the front men we could probably get a few more goals and assists from him in that position. That said - he was imperious yesterday.

Henderson and Allen both did well. I think Henderson's energy is great even though his shooting/chance creation/space opening passes needs to be worked on. Still only young and I think he will improve. Between Henderson and Shelvey we have one complete player which is what I think youth Gerrard was in his mid-20s. Allen showed incredible nous getting into the box and making those darting runs. Who knew he had that in him? Unlucky not to get a goal but I don't think it'll be too long. He's such a great option off the bench too - has a wonderful work rate and when he came on he just kept the pressure up on the back 4.

Still room for improvement as a team but I think we are one step closer to being where we want to be. Best footballing performance for a long time and it harked back to our days of Torres, Gerrard and Xabi at times. 


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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 3-0 Soonalan
« Reply #69 on: January 4, 2013, 02:45:57 am »
Liverpool v Sunderland

Excellent as expected mate. The Ajax comparisons also work because they had a very young team too. I recommend to anyone the 'Successes of 1995' DVD collection you can torrent from various places if you want to relive some decent-quality (picture) classic football. Van Gaal, the mad bastard, does a Kung-Fu kick after a high foot on Litmanen from one of the Milan players.

One question: how does the comparison work if we look at Henderson and Litmanen specifically? I like your explanation of Henderson as almost a defensive attacking player, whereby his workrate is used to funnel opposition attacks into areas we are better equipped to defend, but obviously going forward Litmanen is streets ahead. Jari used to head for the box quite often (perhaps more like Joe Allen did second half) and offered some typically striker-like qualities. I'd suggest an attacking solution like this is necessary for a team with aspirations of winning most of their games, no? Can we afford to have Henderson (incomparable goal contribution) in that adapted Litmanen (actually shirted as the number 10) role?

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 3-0 Soonalan
« Reply #70 on: January 4, 2013, 03:08:03 am »
Excellent as expected mate. The Ajax comparisons also work because they had a very young team too. I recommend to anyone the 'Successes of 1995' DVD collection you can torrent from various places if you want to relive some decent-quality (picture) classic football. Van Gaal, the mad bastard, does a Kung-Fu kick after a high foot on Litmanen from one of the Milan players.

One question: how does the comparison work if we look at Henderson and Litmanen specifically? I like your explanation of Henderson as almost a defensive attacking player, whereby his workrate is used to funnel opposition attacks into areas we are better equipped to defend, but obviously going forward Litmanen is streets ahead. Jari used to head for the box quite often (perhaps more like Joe Allen did second half) and offered some typically striker-like qualities. I'd suggest an attacking solution like this is necessary for a team with aspirations of winning most of their games, no? Can we afford to have Henderson (incomparable goal contribution) in that adapted Litmanen (actually shirted as the number 10) role?
Probably not maybe the reason Rodgers has said he is looking for number 10 in summer . Btw smashing post Phase
Liverpool manager Rafael Benítez admitted after the match that the manner of his side's victory had stunned him and he stated: "My problem is that I don't have words to express the things that I feel at this moment"

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 3-0 Soonalan
« Reply #71 on: January 4, 2013, 03:29:24 am »
have to agree Pop's post is excellent

it does reflect exactly Rodgers stated positions from his Swansea days - 2 inside forwards, a staggered central three, full backs pushed up........

but a lot of the praise for the performance ignores some crucial issues - we've played better football in first halves and lost - when we lose we generally talk up our play and chances - but we've seen against Villa, Fulham and now Sunderland - its largely about goals -

in football terms I thought it was a relatively even first half -  we scored, Sunderland didn't but they created 3 very good chances - they were probably worth a goal first half if the game were decided by judges and merit - second half our 3rd killed them and they became a very poor team feeling sorry for themselves - judging the football merits after that were pretty pointless - we should have made them pay more heavily.

Sterling despite his goal offered very little - he needs a rest and an extra stone of grit and determination - and his positioning needs work especially defensively - all understandable but our fluidity could be so much greater with  a more effective player out there.

we continue to struggle when pressed and our cover at times against Sunderland was all over the place..... we had some of lady luck on the night which is nice and a great save from pepe - we continue to gift space and chances - how many stupid free kicks around our box? But they only had Larsson and Johnson..........

Allen was again robbed facing our goal - Lucas bailed him out - another day those split centre backs could have cost us........

Rodgers use of Henderson continues to bemuse, just as Downing is not a full back Henderson is not an attacking midfielder - ok BR may not see him elsewhere and be trying to make use of him where he can but it remains odd - Henderson has a good touch, can be neat and tidy on the ball, has a calm head on him and can run all day - he seems to be an ideal  link player - but BR prefers Gerrard or Allen in that role - what are the relative characteristics of the two roles that BR has in his mind? Is he expecting them to be far more interchangeable than have predetermined roles? JH can certainly press more consiistently than Gerrard.

The failure to develop Coates seems strange........

Suso is in a similar place to Sterling - there's great talent in there but not great output.....both seem to be bullied at the moment......

Suarez is magnificent. His attitude and ability are priceless. Is the system working in an attacking sense because the lads unplayable - he could make virtually any system work couldn't he?

Our attitude continues to be a concern, you could see Suarez's frustration growing through the game. A more determined Sunderland side and even at 2 - 0 I'm not convinced we cruise to victory - we gift chances and space too easily - just because the opposition dont make the best of them doesn't mean we played that well. For me our results continue to be dominated by what the opposition do rather than by us until we get a grip of the opposition attack,  that will continue to be the case.

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 3-0 Soonalan
« Reply #72 on: January 4, 2013, 03:48:33 am »
Excellent post Phaseofplay - not seen the comparison to the Ajax team of the 90's before, but the positioning is clearly comparable. From recollection (and i was living in holland at the time) they were more compact than ourselves mind you.

Brilliant contribution.

Certainly has been the most consistent we've been in the last what 6 or 7 games overall.
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 3-0 Soonalan
« Reply #73 on: January 4, 2013, 04:23:28 am »
"They are approaching football utopia. Their concept of the game is exquisite yet they have a physical superiority as well. They are Beauty and the Beast." Heh. Will still pine for 'shit on a stick', so cheers for that Jorge.

We've a long road still ahead though haven't we? What's encouraging is that a little bit of luck defensively and a little bit of clinicality up front demonstrates what's underneath there to those who don't want or aren't inclined to go into the details, though PoP's ability to illustrate and explain is fantastic for those of us who hear the music and not the notes. VdM (as usual) is spot on that it's this kind of foundation and approach which sets what is happening under Rodgers apart from what happened under Hodgson. But the pressure for results will continue, so it's good when it works and we can point to a good result to show that things are moving forward.

Think the thing for me, away from the individual performances, was that there was a real team feeling against Sunderland. It just felt like they were playing for each other. Johnson's hug for Allen, the sheer delight for Sterling on his team mates' faces, some utterly unselfish runs to create space and provide cover - there was a unity there. I loved it. Was it confidence in things growing as this time we got the early goal and then the second? Even what seemed to be a delighted response by Rodgers to Henderson's performance when he was taken off, it's a good cycle to see. It lifts the crowd, it lifts the support generally and it lifts the players.

Henderson has got a lot of plaudits for his performance, and rightly so - he's growing into his shirt. But I kept looking over to that young lad at right back and thinking 'few years' time and he'll be playing more centrally, and he'll monster opposition strikers'.
« Last Edit: January 4, 2013, 05:08:35 am by Zeb »
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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 3-0 Soonalan
« Reply #74 on: January 4, 2013, 05:13:51 am »
Downing has looked so much better in the last month or so. I'm sure he'd be available for the right offer, but I'd be happy enough if he stayed til the summer, provided he can maintain this sort of form. He seems more confident, more alert, and more daring, and it's something I thought died last season in him.

Hendo is right about Hendo hahaha. He was a constant threat, harrying and attacking the back five of Sunderland. Again, someone who looks more confident, and someone who looks like they're willing to work hard for their place. He's been our best midfielder the last month or so, which given Stevie's form is pretty incredible.

Suarez, my love. I want him to adopt me. Can he do that, I'm a year old than him?

Sterling has underwhelmed a wee bit for me recently, compared to his own high standards. Part of it is probably the physical part of the game, which he'll figure out in time. But he looked very good here, that goal will do him the world of good. That Pepe Reina is the one I remember, and the layoff and the rumours seem to have helped him refocus.

All in all it was the performance that we have been capable of all season. The movement, the vision, the Suarez. I hope we can beat Mansfield as easily and go to the Mancs with a bit of momentum.
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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 3-0 Soonalan
« Reply #75 on: January 4, 2013, 05:19:01 am »
Excellent as expected mate. The Ajax comparisons also work because they had a very young team too. I recommend to anyone the 'Successes of 1995' DVD collection you can torrent from various places if you want to relive some decent-quality (picture) classic football. Van Gaal, the mad bastard, does a Kung-Fu kick after a high foot on Litmanen from one of the Milan players.

One question: how does the comparison work if we look at Henderson and Litmanen specifically? I like your explanation of Henderson as almost a defensive attacking player, whereby his workrate is used to funnel opposition attacks into areas we are better equipped to defend, but obviously going forward Litmanen is streets ahead. Jari used to head for the box quite often (perhaps more like Joe Allen did second half) and offered some typically striker-like qualities. I'd suggest an attacking solution like this is necessary for a team with aspirations of winning most of their games, no? Can we afford to have Henderson (incomparable goal contribution) in that adapted Litmanen (actually shirted as the number 10) role?

I can understand the choice. 

I think Rodgers has been relatively transparent with his thoughts. If you look at various things we seen him say. He has said in an interveiw that he is looking for a no.10 in summer so clearly he's not happy with the options we have. I think initially Rodgers chose Shelvey as the no.10 because he thought he "had goals in him". He said as much in being Liverpool. But I am now thinking there has been a shift. The cold hard truth is Shelvey simply hasn't been scoring goals and I suspect he will now prefer Henderson who offers workrate constantly showing for the ball when we have it and apply defensive pressure we we don't. At least I think that will be the conclusion drawn from the Sunderland game.

Come summer though it's my opinion he will be after a no.10 that has a high offensive and defensive workrate (like Henderson) but that also has goals in him. Someone with workrate like Honda or Holtby rather than perhaps the higher profile options like Sneijder or Eriksen.
« Last Edit: January 4, 2013, 05:20:41 am by DanA »
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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 3-0 Soonalan
« Reply #76 on: January 4, 2013, 05:42:29 am »
Excellent as expected mate. The Ajax comparisons also work because they had a very young team too. I recommend to anyone the 'Successes of 1995' DVD collection you can torrent from various places if you want to relive some decent-quality (picture) classic football. Van Gaal, the mad bastard, does a Kung-Fu kick after a high foot on Litmanen from one of the Milan players.

One question: how does the comparison work if we look at Henderson and Litmanen specifically? I like your explanation of Henderson as almost a defensive attacking player, whereby his workrate is used to funnel opposition attacks into areas we are better equipped to defend, but obviously going forward Litmanen is streets ahead. Jari used to head for the box quite often (perhaps more like Joe Allen did second half) and offered some typically striker-like qualities. I'd suggest an attacking solution like this is necessary for a team with aspirations of winning most of their games, no? Can we afford to have Henderson (incomparable goal contribution) in that adapted Litmanen (actually shirted as the number 10) role?

May I say before I post, fantastic thread. I have enjoyed reading it.

With the Henderson/Litmanen suggestion. We tried to swap Dempsey for Hendo in the summer, and reading what others put, that would make sense? From what I can gather, Dempsey played that number 10 role for Fulham and it was successful. Scoring goals.
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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 3-0 Soonalan
« Reply #77 on: January 4, 2013, 05:54:00 am »
May I say before I post, fantastic thread. I have enjoyed reading it.

With the Henderson/Litmanen suggestion. We tried to swap Dempsey for Hendo in the summer, and reading what others put, that would make sense? From what I can gather, Dempsey played that number 10 role for Fulham and it was successful. Scoring goals.

I think he fits the mold. Works bloody hard both defensively and in attack. He might not have crazy skills like Ronaldiho but don't think that's what were looking for. I think we want someone with a bit of grit.
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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 3-0 Soonalan
« Reply #78 on: January 4, 2013, 06:52:58 am »
I'll echo that.  Really appreciate the time you put in to your analyses Phase of Play.

We were discussing the 3-4-3 in possession in your back three thread, and one of the things you stated was that you would prefer us to play three natural CBs rather than have Lucas drop in as he didn't drop deep enough.  Were you encouraged by how he's adapted already?

Ideally, I'd prefer to keep this way of doing it, because (as you say) the opposition are kept guessing and we can switch positions as the games develop without swapping players.

What I actually tried to say was that against certain opposition, we could look at a back three to shore up certain spaces we are vulnerable in during transition. For teams that want to play football, though, the 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 is sufficient. I think we play those formations quite well against teams that get it down and pass it.

As for Lucas and the two CB's, I was very happy with the adjustments they made, conscious or not. If they can retain that compactness when the ball is out of their zone, like they did with Lucas in the Sunderland game, then I think we're on to something that gives us an "edge" over a lot of teams, perhaps?
« Last Edit: January 4, 2013, 07:07:22 am by PhaseofPlay »
Better looking than Samie.

Offline fefs

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Re: Round Table Discussion - Liverpool 3-0 Soonalan
« Reply #79 on: January 4, 2013, 06:56:00 am »
Conclusion –
In the fullness of the game, I think we saw some real glimpses of the Rodgers vision being played out for all to see. There was no “guff”, no soundbites, no “talking”, and no buzzwords. It was Rodgers’ vision writ large for the people of Liverpool to see – extreme circulation of the ball, temporization, pressure defence, balance in all thirds and channels of the field, a central spine, and a system that every player understands, from starters to bench players. Even the addition of Allen, Suso and Carragher didn’t change the patterns of play. That, my friends, is real coaching. The players believed, the manager believes, the message is being perfected, and the addition of top quality will only see the plan getting better. For the future, I think a lot more teams are going to come to Anfield and be made to look “rubbish”. Rodgers is building a fortress, brick by brick, pass by pass. It needs some time, but it needs a good foundation, and the lumps we took early in the season in order to get the system machinated will be well worth it – if not this season, then in the seasons to come.


Fantastic post, thank you once again. The players and managers believe and lets hope by the end of the season all the supporters do too.
It will be interesting to see who is still here and who has been replaced in another year but Rodgers seems to be adjusting his system to suit his players.
Would like to see Sahin in that deeper "quarterback" role as you mentioned before he leaves us.

And a point you made that I had forgotten from the game was how well the subs slotted in. Look forward to seeing how this team progresses with new additions and more familiarity.
The future is red !