Topic: Villa Round Table - Or Clubs You Hate

[stockdam]

When we get our peckers up we are a very good team. However it's dawning on me that we don't have leaders who will roll up their sleeves and fight for every ball as if it was their one and only cup final.

Tactics don't mean a lot if the players don't want to take responsibility.

We'll have a couple of good games and we'll talk about getting 4th place but then we'll roll over and lose against a weaker team. I am not looking forwards to playing the relegation teams as they will be highly motivated to win. We will get ourselves up for the big games but we'll be undone against the lesser teams as their desire will be greater than ours.

Several other teams are outperforming us because they have the desire. It's not because they have better individual players.

The top three clubs have the money and better squads but after that it's down to desire.

[Gnurglan]

Three at the back. Which means either 4 in midfield or 2 up front. If BR is dogmatic about his three-man midfield, then it means we have to switch to a bona fide 3-5-2. If we look at the average positions of both Skrtel and Agger, compared with Weimann and Bentenke, we can see that in a change from their usual 4-2-3-1, Lambert played two forwards very close together to exploit the huge gap that we create in trying to play from the back into the middle third. Usually it works, because a lot of teams we have played only play with one forward, and so the split centrebacks put that player in a pressing dilemma - shift across to one CB, and he'll pass it to the other one 40 yards away. In the end, the lone forward will just stop pressing, and the CB's can then build more comfortably from their positions. But Lambert clearly realized this, and employed two close forwards, 5 defenders to collapse the space in the box that we get most of our shots from, and went 3v3 in the middle, probably knowing full well that Gerrard doesn't play in a disciplined manner so at times it would be a 3v2 in Villa's favour. If we look here:



... we can see the close positioning of the two Villa forwards. Inserting a 3rd centreback there (say, Coates, for example) closes up that particular gap, maintains the 3 in middle, still allows the fullbacks to push high, and the only sacrifice we make is up front, but as we're not replete with scoring forwards, the dynamics change and might actually create more space for shots. If we look here, with every other average position the same, except no Shelvey, Coates in the middle of the defence, and Raheem pushed up with Suarez, how much more secure does the system look?



We know BR is not averse to three at the back, but if we keep conceding soft goals like we do, playing the 4-3-3 is going to be something he might have to not be so dogmatic about. Making a tactical move like this doesn't sacrifice the pattern of play, the principles of attack or defense and in fact makes us, I think, stronger in midfield. Enrique's and Johnson's (and by extension, Downing's) starting positions are in midfield, rather than at the back, so we effectively play a 5 man midfield with the security of a transitional back four in defence. The method of developing the attack is not an issue for us. Scoring and covering the negative space on transition to defence, though, is a major issue. In making a simple change like this, one tactical solution might positively impact the other.

Hmmm....I'm mixed about this. Definitely think you have a point about the CBs. For the short term, I believe it would make us stronger. My concern would be what we do in the long run. I'm generally against playing five at the back, because I think it shifts the balance in the side so much. Too much to do for the wing-backs.

I'd like us to take a different route. Instead of going 3-5-2, I'd want us to play 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1. Tighten the CM and perhaps play the CBs closer together as well. That way, if we can create more stability, we'd still have a system close to the 4-3-3 we want to use later on.

The advantage I see with your suggestion is that the squad we have is not built for 4-4-2/4-2-3-1. We have CBs and CMs. Johnson is good going forward. Enrique has done well in a more advanced position as well. It's mainly my own dislike for 3-5-2/5-3-2 that wants me to stay away from it.

[rola]

Leicester is irrational "hatred" for me. They always seemed to beat us 1 nil. Then there's Lineker, walkers crisp stadium - Leicester begat lineker and he begat so many things I can't abide including the ruination of motd.  So Leicester city it is.

As for us. I haven't bought into the Rodgers blueprint/philosophy/cult yet. I don't get it.  We play some nice stuff but struggle to score. We play 4-3-3 but don't seem to have the players we need to do it properly. My main problem is that we seem unable to defend. We are ridiculously easy to play against because our defensive flaws are writ large.

That's a massive part of the game that seems to be neglected. I'm old school in that I believe you build a team from the back. When things aren't going well the team stays tight, remains solid and doesn't give away cheap goals. It happens to all teams, but we're tissue paper fragile.

Its not the players - Reina, Johnson, Agger, Skrtel & Lucas are all quality defensive players. In my view its the flaw in the system in that the "zones" we've heard so much about are all about transitions in attack - building from the back. But where are the transitions in the other direction? What happened to the high intensity pressing, winning the ball back within 6 seconds. In old money it was called defending from the front.

I don't see it as an integral part of what we do. I suspect there might be a bit of believing our own hype - 60%+ possession, sometimes 70% - a case of it being 9/10ths of the footballing law around anfield? Admirable. However,
I can't escape the feeling that the Rodgers footballing manifesto is missing a couple of key chapters in the art of defending.

It might be down to not having the right players yet and if that's the case then I hope the manager gets the backing to get whatever he needs to make things work.

It might be down to time - time for the players to adapt and learn and improve. The only response to that is patience.

As others have said - the villa result was a wake up call. Lets not believe our own hype. Lets not forget that there's no substitution for hard work. Lets not ignore the football truth that sometimes you have to earn the right to play

[has gone odd]

after 20 mins you couldnt help but feel optimistic .. what followed was a massive reality check, one i hope puts 50,000 volts up the arse of some of the more lathargic players.

time and time again, heads go down after conceeding a goal, almost the belief that brendan (or any previous manager) has filled players with just evaporates. the wham game was the blip and not this result imho.

in fairness we had been on a reasonable run of form, there was reason to believe we could nab a victory in this one but we simply lack quality in and around the box, almost like rabbits in headlights. frankly its starting to be too familiar. its so so easy to citicise when you watch from your sofa but surely its obvious that certain players need a rest. sterling and gerrard both look absolutely shattered, its not helping our cause. im concerned we are handling our kids badly, im no expert in this field but they rarely look happy out there.

for some derranged reason im looking forward to january, but really, do we have money to splash, even if we do whatever we buy is not guaranteed to be a life saver.

i think its time for all of us to rethink our expectations, will dream of being at least half as good as we used to be again but for now and certainly well into the future this is where we are, mid table. its a hard pill to swallow but we really have to support the manager and his plans here and believe he can turn this round. jumping on everyones back will just put them under more pressure and make the difficult task ahead worse.

i dunno, lack of consistancy just makes us look ordinary. being odinary isnt what liverpool have done for decades. its horrible but its still liverpool and frankly id support us in the bottom tier of league football. my colours are nailed to the mast, gotta take rough with tha smooth!

despise charlton athletic. dumb name for a team!

[Filler.]

I'm not big on hate, not anymore anyway. If I had to pick one tho, it would probably be Liverpool.


The West Ham game - the turnaround - was vital, but for all that joy (genuine fist pumping joy)- it needed to be followed up with a win to make it poignant (possibly). I still can't get my head around why we needed to upset the apple cart all of a sudden with pronunciations beyond our station. Forgive me, but I still can't. We overblow these kind of things, and I'm doing the same bloody thing as the media do which irritates me, but why tell Villa that they're just going to turn up so that we can climb over them and collect what we deserve?

We rightly looked at these games as being ones where we could, and must pick up wins... but when I looked at the fixture list again, pre Villa, I see Villa going well of recent days... I see Stoke away, I see QPR under Redknapp (they won yesterday)... and I see Fulham, who have a proper forward in Berbatov. Then I see away days at Man Utd and Arsenal and City, with Sunderland in between and you know what?.. we've got as good a chance to steal 7 points from the games in January as we do in this 'breather' of a session in December that we all clung to. And we did didn't we?... We clung to it... we thought it was an opportunity to find wins possibly.... so what do we do?... We get ahead of ourselves.

And then we ask Shelvey to play out wide.

[robgomm]

On the hating clubs, well, none anymore. I don't have any time for Milton Keynes for the expected reasons but that's about it. There are the obvious teams it's particularly enjoyable to beat from a Liverpool fans' view but I can't honestly say I hate those teams!

On the match, interesting to compare this with the Southampton game. There we also had a significant majority of possession and scored once. They difference is they offered nothing on the break and weren't as resilient as Villa defensively. What we have to accept is that teams will let us have the ball at home if they believe that they can hold out and make the most of their limited possession. Villa more than did that. I don't think we were especially different from the Southampton game. We will have to cope better against the tactics that will be employed against us.

That said, we defended desperately poorly. I think our midfield is still unbalanced and we leave ourselves far too open at times. And it was the same old issue up front. I'd rather see Shelvey through the middle, for having some goal threat.

The learning will continue.

[sowellred]

I think the result was a blip. One that happens in this 'funny ole game'.

I remember saying to my daughter that we would score anytime now after the Petrov applause. Alas, they got the opener, it all changed and we turned fragile.

 It was one of those games that would have been different with a Torres/gerrard of a few years back.

On the rough road that comes with developing a new team/system it's hard to imagine a journey without the odd pot-hole. One minute we are talking about second/third place, 90 minutes later we are just outside relegation. I think we will know a little more if this is a blip or a reality check after the Sunderland game.


One thing I noticed yesterday was that when we had the ball we actually were playing with a back 2! Downing and Johnson were up with the midfiled for large spells. (Graphic above supports this) If we had possession for in excess of 70% of the game I think there's the answer to why we conceed on the break. Maybe if we revert to one or the other full-back bombing on we might get tighter.



Team I hate. United, especially when Neville played. Although he is quite a good pundit.

[Always_A_Red]

I'm not big on hate, not anymore anyway. If I had to pick one tho, it would probably be Liverpool.


The West Ham game - the turnaround - was vital, but for all that joy (genuine fist pumping joy)- it needed to be followed up with a win to make it poignant (possibly). I still can't get my head around why we needed to upset the apple cart all of a sudden with pronunciations beyond our station. Forgive me, but I still can't. We overblow these kind of things, and I'm doing the same bloody thing as the media do which irritates me, but why tell Villa that they're just going to turn up so that we can climb over them and collect what we deserve?

We rightly looked at these games as being ones where we could, and must pick up wins... but when I looked at the fixture list again, pre Villa, I see Villa going well of recent days... I see Stoke away, I see QPR under Redknapp (they won yesterday)... and I see Fulham, who have a proper forward in Berbatov. Then I see away days at Man Utd and Arsenal and City, with Sunderland in between and you know what?.. we've got as good a chance to steal 7 points from the games in January as we do in this 'breather' of a session in December that we all clung to. And we did didn't we?... We clung to it... we thought it was an opportunity to find wins possibly.... so what do we do?... We get ahead of ourselves.

And then we ask Shelvey to play out wide.

This is a thing for me that I have touched upon in another thread but I find it absolutely baffling at how many players we seem to play out of position. We have a thin squad of players but this means that we need to get the very best out of the players we have which includes playing them in their preffered positions and play a way that will play to their strengths.

On too many occassions this season we have players playing in positions that are not their preferred place and yet we have players sat on the bench who's natural position it is.

Whether its Shelvey playing wide, Borini on the left, Johnson at LB, Allen playing the holding role, Downing at LB, Sahin playing deep, Gerrard wandering in the CM not knowing what he's supposed to be doing, there are too many square pegs in round holes. There is no need.

If Lucas is injured, play Henderson in there (or anyone!) and keep Joe Allen in the position that he'll be most effective,which will allow Sahin to play in his most preferred position etc. We lose one player, but we become weaker in 3 positions.

Enrique gets injured so we push GJ at left back and now bring in a weaker right back to GJ, so we lose 1 player but get weaker in 2 positions

Its massively important that with a limited squad of players that you truely maximise the potential of those players by playing to their strengths and play them in their preferred position. BR needs to sort this out, and he needs to sort it out quick 

Oh and my most hated team....Chelsea - i dont think I need to explain why

[robgomm]

However, I can't escape the feeling that the Rodgers footballing manifesto is missing a couple of key chapters in the art of defending.

For him the idea is that you stop the opposition best by keeping the ball. When you don't have it, you win it back quickly. That's the idea anyway. And to be fair, they have been instances of success with it. Certainly we looked pretty hard to beat in our form prior to yesterday, where we beat ourselves.

[n00bert]

Irrational hate? The Mancs? Or is that hate more rational. Fucking loathe them and their ilk.

On to the game - blip or reality check? I think it's a blip in the long term, a reality check in the short.

Unlike some, I did believe that even at 1-0 down we could have turned this around, such was our dominance of the first 30 minutes. Unfortunately we got sucker punched again and at 2-0 down I thought the best we were going to muster was a draw. Wrong - another mistake and it was 3-0. Oh well.

My main issue with the current team is that we are lacking quality up front and for the record I don't think playing Gerrard up in the front three is the answer. We need to sign some quality here or all this possession is going to count for nought. That said though, we do look like we are heading in the right direction but until the finishing woes are sorted, I fear this is going to be our main problem. Even then, I'm not holding my breath that a person signed is going to waltz in and score 15 goals in the second half of the season but a bit more cutting edge would be useful. 

Don't buy that we are light in midfield. I think the problem is the way we pressure the ball in the upper third. I will freely admit that I'm a person that likes when we press high-up. The downside can be seen in the second goal, if they get the ball out quickly we can be left exposed. It is a downside of teams that try to win the ball higher up the field and one that I am happy to live with all things considered.

I think on a whole we have done OK defensively this year - kept a fair few clean sheets and but for some epic brain farts could have kept a few more. I don't necessarily think we are especially vulnerable on the counter, at least no more than the likes of the United, City or even Chelsea.

So yeah, think we are not too bad even with this loss. Still not far off the top 4 and I think top 6 is realistically achievable. As long as we keep building towards where we want to be I'll take the bumps along the way. It's been 23 long years, what's another?

[jaffod]

A disastrous performance and a disastrous result. Our complete inability to turn decent goalscoring opportunities into actual goals costing us dear once again, twice we had perfect chances to go a goal up before Villa scored and we fluffed them both.
 To be brutally honest I didn't think our play yesterday was all that different to what we've been seeing all season at Anfield. Slow, ponderous build-up, passing the ball with little purpose or effect across the face of the penalty area and an inability to get men into the penalty area. It is so easy to defend against and Fulham will do exactly the same thing next week. The main difference yesterday was that Villa had plans of their own and weren't content to merely frustrate us. They also had a battering ram up front who we simply couldn't cope with.
 We actually started well. We were finding space through the middle and down the flanks and Villa's defence looked like you could drive a couple of double-decker buses through it. Unfortunately our final ball was as poor as it's been all season and Sterling was the main culprit. Say all you like about his youth and inexperience but some of his attempts to cross into the box yesterday were nothing short of pathetic. I hope BR sees fit to drop him next week against Fulham and who knows maybe try something a bit different. Wont happen but I'd be quite pleased to see Gerrard or even Johnson pushed out to the wing in Sterlings place.
 The first goal we conceded was a joke. No pressure on Benteke at all and he had all the time in the world to pick his spot. Then, finally, we witnessed some tika-taka or whatever the fuck it's called but unfortunately for us it was by Villa. The best goal seen at Anfield this season and the sort of thing we have been trying to achieve all season without ever coming close to pulling it off.
 Half time and a change was vital. I actually had no problem with Joe Cole coming on and quite frankly any of the front 3 could have had no complaints about being hooked and I'll assume it was Shelvey who's name came out the hat.
 The 3rd and killing goal was another massive fuck up on our part. Cole wasn't up to the pace of the game but I'm not sure Allen should have given him the ball in that area anyway. The way Benteke was allowed to stroll through our defence and slot it was poor on our part but not unexpected by this stage.
 Cue more huffing and puffing on our part as we continued to labour to produce any meaningful goalscoring opportunities and in all honesty we never looked like scoring. Any attempted crosses were generally cut out by the first defender and more often than not there was a shortage of targets in the box anyway. This was all played out in front of a resigned and apathetic crowd who had built their hopes up pre-game on the back of a couple of very scrappy wins in the previous 2 games.
 As for the players I thought Downing was probably our best player on the day which some would deem as worrying in itself. The midfield is dysfunctional and unless Allen can start to produce some threat in the final 3rd then I don't see how we can accommodate both him and Lucas in the same team against teams like Villa at Anfield. The manager also needs to find a way to best utilise Gerrard in his system and pushing him further up the pitch and taking away his defensive duties seems to be the most sensible option.
 All in all a very disappointing afternoon and it's really depressing to see us slip back into the bottom half of the table. There is no way this squad should be in the position it is and it is up to BR to start trying something different as our play is now ridiculously predictable. Fulham is a game we really need to win now as I don't see us having the conviction or backbone to win either of our 2 aways over Christmas.
 

[Alf]

This is what I said 3 years ago the last time we lost to Villa at Anfield and the same applied yesterday.

We had enough chances in the 1st 15 minutes to have the game sewn up. We took our foot of the peddle and paid the price in the 1st half last night.

Interesting enough I was finishing Rafa's book yesterday morning where he was talking about wanting Jovetic and how that came back to bite us on the arse in the 09/10 season particularly in Florence. Again our fate seems to have been sealed by a break down in communication between the manager and the board regarding incoming transfer targets.

I've not been more critical of another side than Villa this season and when I looked at our games for December, I was convinced that was the one we would win. Credit to them though they took their chances when they came along. Every time Guzan kicked the ball out he hit Benteke like West Ham did with Carlton Cole and we couldn't deal with it. Players like that are a rare breed but very effective when on their game.

[gandalf50]

Benteke is something else though. I can't say I've watched all too much of Villa this season, but when I do, he sticks out like an erection in pyjamas that fella. Why are we particularly bad at defending against this type of player though? Carlton Cole last week ripped our defence to pieces. Drogba constantly tore us apart. Maybe our centre-half pairing aren't as complete as we all might think.

Maybe we have a problem because we don`t have this type of player in our squad. Can you imagine training against Lukaku, Drogba, Benteke or even Rooney or Shearer all week. We have nobody in the squad who gives our defenders that physical battle during the week, so they are probably not ready for it during the game.
Also I don`t think it is a good sign if people are laying into the players six months into a new managers reign. I understand supporting the manager. But if he is that good he will find a way.
United for all the usual reasons. But more for all the shit easy draws in cups and CL that they get and then the over the top praise for beating shight. I wish we had of drawn them in the CL between 05 and 10.

[woof]

It was absolutely hard to take when we played to well in the first 20 minutes or so. We did everything well except putting the ball behind the net.

Football is so.... frustrating at times. Villa did what we did to Hammers the previous week. Of course, it's not quite the same but you get the picture. Villa took their chances well, even if they were limited. So the question is: do we have the right cattle to score goals? We can't win if we can't score.

I thought Downing did well. Perhaps with Enrique around, we wouldn't have conceded the goals. I don't know. I'm still seething from the loss

[Garstonite]

Maybe we have a problem because we don`t have this type of player in our squad. Can you imagine training against Lukaku, Drogba, Benteke or even Rooney or Shearer all week. We have nobody in the squad who gives our defenders that physical battle during the week, so they are probably not ready for it during the game.
Also I don`t think it is a good sign if people are laying into the players six months into a new managers reign. I understand supporting the manager. But if he is that good he will find a way.

A very good point. Simple, yet genius!

[JP-65]

My abilities to assess tactics & structure is limited compared to most on these threads, but I'm of the belief that there is a "system" issue with BR's approach to the game.

If you look at Swansea last season, they had decent defensive stats, but they gave up 2 or more goals 15 times in 38 matches, while having 14 clean sheets, it was either a solid defensive game, or a disaster.  They conceded 4 goals, four times (we only let in 4 once last season, the 9 men effort at Spurs).  They suffered 9 2 goal defeats on the road (and only 2 at home).

Does his system "fail" when individuals make mistakes (and we've had a lot of them this season), as the team is not set up to handle them.....it's almost binary, either it works perfectly, but if it doesn't, it fails?

[RayPhilAlan]

That's the first time I've missed Andy Carroll. What was it, nine defenders in the box every time we had the ball? Then we send a cross in that their bigger players gobble up. Replacing Shelvey with li'l Joey made this problem worse. Villa knew they could defend deep because we would be no trouble to them in the air, and that deep defence largely stopped us using Sterling's pace, or the trickery of Suarez and Johnson - they might beat one or two, but there was always another defender there. Eventually Johnson got his chance, but far too late.

So that's added to my wishlist for a new striker - able to play wide when Suarez is in the middle, able to play centre forward when Suarez goes wide, able to score lots of goals, but also tall enough to stop teams defending against us like that.

[El Ninos Black Eye]

A very good point. Simple, yet genius!

That was a very good point. I heard John Hartson the other day on the radio and he was talking about his time at Arsenal. He said Keown used to say to him in training, play like its a real match, because that's how I will play against you. And you won't come up against a more physical Defender than me. So when Saturday comes what ever a Defender throws at you, you'll be ready for it.   

[John C]

That was a very good point. I heard John Hartson the other day on the radio and he was talking about his time at Arsenal. He said Keown used to say to him in training, play like its a real match, because that's how I will play against you. And you won't come up against a more physical Defender than me. So when Saturday comes what ever a Defender throws at you, you'll be ready for it.   

Yeah, I don't like Hartson one bit but I thought it was interesting. Keown was basically telling him to hurt him in training.

[stockdam]

That's the first time I've missed Andy Carroll. What was it, nine defenders in the box every time we had the ball?

I would bring him back in January as he adds height and strength that we miss against some of the bigger teams who defend deep. Carroll will win the ball if the crosses are good.........most of our other forwards won't. Gerrard can whip in a flat cross that Carroll would love to attack.

[Hij]

I'll reply properly tomorrow, but the thought I had was that if we suck up our latest defeat and try Put our balls on the line and put our all into our next few games, we'll have 3 games in a week- could really help us if we can do well and this could look like a small blip - or we could really be pulling our hair out.

[woof]

I felt Reina could have done better with the first goal. He's a good goalie but his weakness is near post. How many times have we seen balls getting through at his near post? That's one area he needs to work on

[TXRed]

First game where I was a bit frustrated by Rodgers' squad selections and substitutes. Shelvey out wide on the right is just inexplicable. Love the lad and think he's going to be tremendous, but not out wide. He's a CM with little pace. We all know that arguably Gerrard's best season came when he was out wide on the right and Shelvey has been pegged by some as the next Stevie, but he's obviously nowhere near that level. I would have much rather seen Assaidi or Suso out wide. Speaking of Assaidi, I wished we saw more of him. I've seen all the talk of him not being a Rodgers signing, but I find that hard to believe since he was heavily linked to Swansea at one point under Rodgers' reign.

Thought Henderson coming in was the right move, but I thought he should have come in for Allen and not Lucas. I'm sure Lucas isn't up to full fitness but he went 80ish minutes agains West Ham. With Henderson's uptick in form and Allen's dip, I thought that would be the right move. Then again, I'm not the manager.

I think Sterling needs a rest, with all the contract talks certainly on his mind (remember his last tweet a few weeks ago) and the media hubbub about it. He just seems a bit knackered and a little out of ideas out there. Too many times he gets the ball and holds on to it for a bit too long like he's hesitant. More instinctual play son, use that pace and movement.

Overall, a very disappointing loss. Was fairly confident coming into this came and at the very least thought we could come away with an ugly 1-0 victory. A reality check that we are still growing and prone to mistakes in this system. I think this team is crying out for a quick and creative attacking midfielder, a fox in the box striker, and another winger, but that talk can be discussed in a couple weeks. I still think 5-7 points is attainable out of the next 3 matches to get us into the transfer window and a ver winnable game against Sunderland.

Gotta remain positive everybody. I know it's hard, but we can't get too high with the wins and too low with the lows. This is pretty low, but these kinds of losses were bound to happen and I won't be surprised if there's at least one or two more. If we can finish in the top 8 this year and head into the summer to offload dead weight and bring in the necessary additions, I will be very content.

[KopThat]

I think this one brought us back down to earth with a thud.

Playing all over them for 20 minutes or so means nothing if you don't get the ball in the net.
I would have preferred to have seen someone like Suso in the place of Shelvey, with the option to bring on Henderson and Shelvey
for Lucas and Allen.
Downing had a good game, maybe putting himself in the shop window.
Joe Cole was largely anonymous when he came on, Henderson was steady but needs to impose himself.
Suarez had an off day by his standards with moves and passes not coming off for him.

You have to admit that Villa played very well at the back, snuffing out chance after chance.
Then up front Benteke did what we couldn't, as well as laying one on a plate for Weimann

We only started to look dangerous again after Gerrard glanced the ball in.

[TXRed]

One thing that I did like about this game is how we made Villa look like a League 1 side for the first 20-30 minutes. Little end product, but I'm of the belief that will happen some time. Hopefully, that 20-30 minutes of domination will be extended as time wears on to 30, 40, 60, and 90 minutes.

[jah008]

This was a game of what could have been.
We dominated midfield but were wasteful upfront and woeful at the back.

There was a moment in the first 20 minutes when Suarez had stolen the ball, had one to beat and had Gerrard screaming through the middle. A simple side foot to Gerrard and he would have had the time to take a touch and slot it past the keeper. 1-0 up. Villa heads down. Reward for our play.
But Suarez took an extra touch. Passed with the outside of his boot and it went behind Gerrard.
This is the standard of our play. The build up is great from Reina, through the backs and midfield and back out to the wide areas. But we actually lack the penetration, the patience, and the skill in the final third to play this system. There is no point having 70% possession to then cross the ball from 30 yards out to a one man strike team with 9 defenders camped in their own 18 yard box.

Why Joe Cole was bought on i do not know. I actually thought Shelvey was getting into good places inside the box but our final balls into the area were lacking.
Why not use Suso who has the ability to split defense with a little ball. The moment Joe Cole came on our entire play narrowed. He drifts to far inside and actually creates less space for Suarez to operate.
He offers nothing that Suso couldn't. The only reason I can see Rodgers playing him is to make him look valuable to sell in January.

This game was important. We should currently sit 7th place. 4 points out of the top 4. With 3 games till January. I fear that if we reach January still languishing in the bottom half of the table we won't be able to attract the extra players (strikers) we need!

[b_joseph]

So, opening question, which club is your irrational hate?

Newcastle..dont know why but they have rubbed me the wrong way since I was a kid watching them prance around like they were king shit in the 90's.

And main question, blip or reality check?

Both. Blip because we are clearly not that bad. When was the last time we have been 3-0 down at home in the league? It has to be years and years, so a game like that is always an anomaly.

But it is also a reality check because we all thought that we were on the verge of a nice winning run but Saturday showed us all that we still have major issues with our team and squad. Issues that can be covered a little in January but issues that will take some time to properly cover.
The inability to mentally recover from being punched in the mouth reared its ugly head again.

We will finish in the top 7 or 8 this year..next year will need to be a different story but I am somewhat ok with that this season. The talk about top 4 and top 2 is silly and will only happen if we have the luckiest run of games of any team in the history of the league.

[b_joseph]

One thing that I did like about this game is how we made Villa look like a League 1 side for the first 20-30 minutes. Little end product, but I'm of the belief that will happen some time. Hopefully, that 20-30 minutes of domination will be extended as time wears on to 30, 40, 60, and 90 minutes.

Was it me, or was the game similar to the Udinese home game?. Where out of the blue we have conceded 3 goals, from a position of strength based on general play.

[John Zac]

In the first half, it seemed like Gerrard and Allen in the midfield 2 ahead of Lucas taking turns to get forward. But when Gerrard drops deep and Allen makes a run forward and we lose possession and if opposition have fast, strong runners in midfield then Lucas is exposed big time.I don't think its a good idea playing Gerrard in a midfield 3 unless his only position is the most advanced midfielder, with the other 2 dropping anchor. Just like Mascherano and Alonso did.

Why do our wingers try to dribble past the opposition defenders when there is absolutely no room to do so.
Why do our players try to cross the ball, when there is hardly any of our players in the box.
In those situations, why cant we just keep possession, recycling the ball and wait for the opposition to make mistake?
Why none of our attackers don't drag the opposition defenders out of position, with smart movements.

[ArchieC]

Hate United and Tottenham most.  United 1st of course mainly due to all their clueless supporters. If they were in our position on the table i guarantee u half of them would say "I go for Man City"

DICKHEADS!!

[GrkStav]

I think the result was a blip. One that happens in this 'funny ole game'.

I remember saying to my daughter that we would score anytime now after the Petrov applause. Alas, they got the opener, it all changed and we turned fragile.

 It was one of those games that would have been different with a Torres/gerrard of a few years back.

On the rough road that comes with developing a new team/system it's hard to imagine a journey without the odd pot-hole. One minute we are talking about second/third place, 90 minutes later we are just outside relegation. I think we will know a little more if this is a blip or a reality check after the Sunderland game.


One thing I noticed yesterday was that when we had the ball we actually were playing with a back 2! Downing and Johnson were up with the midfiled for large spells. (Graphic above supports this) If we had possession for in excess of 70% of the game I think there's the answer to why we conceed on the break. Maybe if we revert to one or the other full-back bombing on we might get tighter.



Team I hate. United, especially when Neville played. Although he is quite a good pundit.

If, as you rightly say, we play effectively with two at the back plus Lucas (the same way Barca play, with Busquets as their Lucas), the FBs have to be as clinical as those of Barca. No lingering on the ball, no crappy, dangerous second-best attempted passes when the first available pass was perfectly executable, no going on walkabouts and shooting with one's off-foot (at least GJ scored a screamer recently so he can be excused for being so eager to shoot; what was Downing's excuse?), ESPECIALLY without a burning, abiding commitment to pressing to get possession back like a crazed religious neophyte, or committing the kind of non-cardable professional fouls that Barca's FB's commit to stop the counter-attack after possession has been surrendered. Heck, even Barca look incredibly easy to beat on the break when their FB's are not on song.

I am one of Lucas's biggest, most loyal fans and admirers. I genuinely feel elated, euphoric to have him back on the pitch. Having said that, and just as I predicted, it has been his old-fashioned dogged DM play that is not "there yet". His positioning and anticipation are still exceptional (not to speak of his build-up play, he just uncomplicates matters whenever he gets involved) but if he has to sprint back and change direction fast he turns lumbering and ineffective by the end of the first half.

For player selection and substitutions, and for player deployment, I "blame" Rodgers. For the idiotic individual plays, I obviously "blame" the individuals involved.

For the life of me, I don't understand why Cole is even on the bench, let alone being used as a substitute, the 'go-to' guy, so to speak. Also, one has to wonder whether those floated crosses are BR's instructions or individual player decisions. Either way, WTF?

And let me add that while Sterling ran himself to the ground and gave his all, and despite his being very active in the last 20 mins or so, his performance, objectively viewed, was disappointing. His reception/first touch of long(ish) passes was atrocious, bordering on the comical. Having been blessed with access to La Liga matches for the first time this season (my cable provider finally added beIN Sport), I had the misfortune of comparing our players' first touches/ball reception to those of actually technically proficient players: Jesus wept.

[decosabute]

It's been one of the best round tables I've read for a while and some fantastic posts have really summed it up better than I ever could, but here goes anyway...

My irrational hatred team is definitely Spurs. Hate their arrogant wanker fans whose attitudes suggest a huge club with a glorious history, when the truth is they've mostly been shite for as long as anyone can remember. Hate the chant 'Come on you Spurs'. Hate their manager. Hate Adebayor, Assou-Ekotto and that little diving prick Bale. Hate the way they seem to get linked with every player we're interested in about two weeks after us and then 'steal' our signings. Hate the way that Redknapp always tried to pretend they were the small, pan-handling, underdog club who'd spent nothing and done good, when in fact their net spend for a few years was as high as anyone other than City. Mostly though, I just hate the way they've cruised past us purely by being better-run while we've fucked up at almost every critical juncture for the past 4 years. So there it is, pure bitterness.

Back to this weekend, I would say sadly that it was a reality check. Villa were decent but nothing more and were simply made to look dangerous by our complete incompetence. I think some of those that credit them for playing a tactically astute game are forgetting that for the first 20 minutes they were absolutely abysmally piss-poor and I would argue that until they scored they looked the worst team we've played this season. During that opening period, I was continually shocked at how easy it was for us - enormous spaces in the midfield, stupidly compliant defending - even though we were dominant in the opening phase, we can barely take much credit due to Villa's shambolic shape. We were fine, but also our usual profligate selves, and any team worth their salt would have been at least one or two up with the room we'd been given. I honestly thought after about ten minutes that it was a three or four-nil in the making.

But then, one swing of Bentecke's boot (a good strike, but Reina looked like his feet and spring weren't quite right) and it turned into one of the strangest games I've seen in a while. We went completely to pieces - morale, tactical awareness, shape, decision-making, basic passing and marking - all seemingly given up on just cos we'd conceded against the run of play. There were echoes of the WBA game from the opening day of the season in how, after a decent start for us, it seemed to turn into a case of everything going right for our opponents and wrong for us.

The collapse was all the more disappointing when one considers that one of the big positives of the past month has been our seemingly re-discovered mental toughness: looking completely out of it at Stamford Bridge only to rescue a draw and finish stronger; grinding out a controlled away win in Italy; coming from behind to win v West Ham. All of those encouraging signs that had turned many of us into true believers were made to look laughably irrelevant on Saturday.

I'm sure it isn't the case and I don't want to seem too serious in the accusation, but for the last hour I kept thinking we looked a team that had had a boozy Christmas do during the week. We were so inept and incoherent that it seemed like we were genuinely unfit. I know the truth is almost certainly more that we simply underestimated Villa and believed our own hype too much, but the thoughts crossed my mind regardless. I know other posts have pointed to our predictability and vulnerability on the counter, which is a valid point, but to be honest Saturday was just one of those times when so much was basically wrong and so little was right that it's hard to even point the finger at our tactics.

Almost to a man we were just really really bad. Truthfully Downing was probably our best player and I thought he had a half decent game at LB. Skrtel, after looking like he was 'back' lately, returned to his early season (i.e. shite) form. Agger seems to be the one player nobody is criticising, but I'd suggest people look at the second goal again where he woefully lost Weimann and was so at fault that even the pundits here in Denmark were having a go at him.  I really am a fan of Joe Allen and he still has flashes of great ability in games, but it's like the confusion over the different roles he's played for the team (and almost certainly fatigue) is badly affecting him lately. He was poor again and Henderson is now well worth a run out in his place. While some of the criticism of Stevie G is over the top and he shouldn't be made a scapegoat when so many others weren't up to scratch, it was yet another sub-par performance from the captain. Aristotle's description of him earlier in the thread was heart-breakingly accurate. It's like you can actually see his legs going before your very eyes. Gerrard's wincing body language of late suggests that he knows it in his heart of hearts too. I understand it's a big call for Rodgers to drop him, but he really needs to be rotated and moving him out of midfield will likely solve at least one if not two of our problems. Those expecting him to revert to barn-storming type  if played in the front 3 will probably be disappointed however, as so much of that ability simply no longer exists. Gerrard can clearly still contribute to this club as his eye for an incisive ball and brilliant ability to whip a cross are still there, but as many here have said, it should be more and more in an impact role to get the best out of him.

The continuing undroppability of our captain is also indicative that BR is developing a nasty habit of playing favourites - Allen, Gerrard and very worryingly, Cole seem to figure regardless of form, while Suso, Sahin and Assaidi continue to be ignored even when times are desperate. I'm still a believer in our manager of course, and overall I still see the positives (though they're difficult to find after a game like that), but I feel he needs to get ballsier about his selections and pay more attention to form. While I don't think he's going to rival Fergie in his ability to dish out hairdryer treatment, I hope he gave the players his version of a bollocking on Saturday, as the Mr. Nice Guy shtick would ring very hollow after a day like that.

So a reality check then, but hopefully also something we learn from. We are a mid table side - no getting around it, and this result rammed home the confirmation in case any of us had forgotten - and that means that not a single team can be taken lightly the rest of the season. Hopefully back to business against Fulham.

[Phil M]

This reminded me of Arsenal at home. We started but completely petered out and seemed to lose our way as soon as things started going their way. Which is of course worrying. I wrote before that I was pleased with how BR is placing such emphasis on making Anfield a fortress again but you wouldn't think it given how we went about our business in the second half. He must have been really gutted by some of the defending we produced. Barcelona (not to draw pointless comparisons but...) try to win the ball back within three seconds of losing it apparently and that is with a team ethic to closing down and suffocating their opponent's space. Although our model might be a long distant cousin in terms of pressure, it was highly disappointing to see us stand off Benteke who seemed to waltz in for the 3rd goal. We've seen old habits die hard the past few seasons under different managers and it is worrying to see that apparent mental weakness we seem to suffer from.

Was a lack of respect towards Villa a contributing factor? I wonder did the team talk and approach consist of something along the lines of 'we're better than these and they just played a game midweek, go out and enjoy yourselves..." etc

[MaschHead]

I think the game was more of a reality check than a blip. We cannot go into a game thinking we will win it, not even at home. We are a very mediocre team, especially on days like this when a handful of players didn't seem up for it, whether they were tired or not.

I was very optimistic before the game, something I haven't been in a long time I must admit. During the game I was shocked how poor we were, besides the first 20 or minutes. We should have scored, but that's a story that seems to repeating itself, we only have ourselves to blame for that. After those 20 minutes though, it was very flat and often looked without a plan. The defending was awful at times and they sliced through our midfield almost at will.

Seeing how Rodgers was brought in to bring the team in line with his playing style and plans, there are games were absolutely nothing is visible of his style, it baffles me how this is possible. You don't forget how to play from one game to another I would think.

[walshys_mullet]

To be honest this was almost a carbon copy of when Villa beat us a few seasons ago in Rafas final season at Anfield, 3-1.

We bloody murdered them that way and somehow they pulled off a three one win.

[steveeastend]

The continuing undroppability of our captain is also indicative that BR is developing a nasty habit of playing favourites - Allen, Gerrard and very worryingly, Cole seem to figure regardless of form, while Suso, Sahin and Assaidi continue to be ignored even when times are desperate.

Itīs the most interesting question at the moment to me though. Every manager has favourites but this pretty much always backfires badly unless itīs Messi or Maradona.

I do hate Ferguson with a passion but itīs one thing this old tramp gets right on a regular basis. Picking the right players in order to win the next game and being ruthless without any compromise. Itīs something manager have to learn, Heynckes manages to do this as well at Bayern at the moment after years of experience and I remember Hitzfeld, Happel, Trappatoni known for being pretty ruthless as well.

Itīs a difficult situation but Rodgers showed a lot of guts with bringing in the youngsters already, although this probably was a popular decision and for that easier to go for.

[steveeastend]

I find this quote of Johnson to be very interesting...

http://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/latest-news/glen-we-ll-put-villa-loss-behind-us

"You can say we needed to pass the ball that bit quicker, but sometimes it's difficult to play too quick because you have so much room. When you're in loads of room then you are supposed to move into that space.

"When the opposition are so compact around the edge of the box then your little passes have to be perfect. When you have a day like we did when your passing isn't perfect that makes it very difficult to break them down."

"I really don't know what we have to do to get a penalty," said Johnson. "There was that one when Daniel was having his shirt pulled and the other one when I headed it and their guy basically caught it.

"We have had some clear cut ones but for whatever reason we just aren't being given them."

Perfect passing around the box comes from talent and endless practising in training, also the quality of crossing. Either itīs the talent or the practise but we kind of lack both at this moment as we are not used to play teams sitting back with ten (anymore).

Rodgers hopefully will work on that with the players although I expect Fulham with a more open game approach next week as they donīt have the players for playing on a counter.

[Corkboy]

I think it's time to remind you all that there's only one God and his name is not Fowler.
There's only one true King and his name is not Kenny.
There is only one Christmas present that is important - the gift that God sent to this earth around 2000 years ago.

Wishing you all a peaceful Christmas and a blessed New Year. May you find the love in this season (for God so loved the world that he sent us his only son to die for us that we might live) and let go of the destructive hatred.

You'll never walk alone. Perhaps you should all ponder who is walking with you...

Christianity. Because you're so awful, you made God kill himself.

So, opening question, which club is your irrational hate?

I don't have one. I have fleeting feelings for clubs which have just beaten us, and I used to have strong negative feelings for Chelsea when Maureen was there, but that's about it.

And main question, blip or reality check?

A subtle and heady blend of both. It was depressing stuff, getting mugged at home by a younger, cheaper team. The manner was disappointing too. I met a buddy of mine after who hadn't seen it and asked me to describe it. My answer was "Liverpool, Liverpool, Liverpool, Villa goal, Liverpool, Liverpool and repeat". Perhaps we needed it, we were starting to believe the hype when the reality is that we are still learning the manager's ways.

[Fromola]

That's the first time I've missed Andy Carroll. What was it, nine defenders in the box every time we had the ball? Then we send a cross in that their bigger players gobble up. Replacing Shelvey with li'l Joey made this problem worse. Villa knew they could defend deep because we would be no trouble to them in the air, and that deep defence largely stopped us using Sterling's pace, or the trickery of Suarez and Johnson - they might beat one or two, but there was always another defender there. Eventually Johnson got his chance, but far too late.

So that's added to my wishlist for a new striker - able to play wide when Suarez is in the middle, able to play centre forward when Suarez goes wide, able to score lots of goals, but also tall enough to stop teams defending against us like that.

Say what you like about Carroll or that sort of number 9 (Benteke at the other end) but Carroll wins everything in the air, he holds the ball up, occupies defenders and links play. The main problem with him was his lack of movement in the box most of the time, but without that type of presence basically all we have is Suarez surrounded by an entire defence.

The difference between the teams was Benteke. We don't have that presence.

[Mashy-rawr!nooo]

I think their was a massive pendulum in the fanbase attitude after this game. It ranged from those who believed Rodgers/FSG simply was not the answer, the solution or the people to take us forward. In Short they wanted Rodgers sacked and FSG gone. The other end of the pendulum swing was those who simply said another loss, its merely a setback and move on. While I appriecate their forward thinking it strikes me as to what the general consensus is slowly coming to accept that after a good run of form, a out of form Villa beating Liverpool 3-1 at Anfield was nothing more than the norm.

I for one am not condoning Rodger's sacking. Anyone who wants him or FSG gone should seriously consider looking in the mirror. However, I'm not one for merely accepting this as a blip. In my eyes, this was a tactical disaster. It was a game we HAD to win if we wanted to turn around this season's dodgy start and actually aim for a position we could achieve rather than expected to achieve. Sure, there will be other opportunities, but the saying 'He shot himself in the foot there' could not apply any better to todays result. We had the chance to move up and really go for something many of our fanbase wanted, instead we fell back and bought out alot of what is wrong with our tactical approach.

So let's begin, the crying problem is clear. Theres a thread on it. Its how clueless we are in the final third. Aston Villa's second goal was an absolute laughing mockery of our failures to produce anything note worthy;



Simple, effective and straightforward. Yet for us being the home team and all the possession we maintained, we couldn't even manufacture anything even close to that.

The reasons are simple, the midfielders did nothing to help spread the play out. If we are trying to emulate the Tika-tika success of Swansea/Barca, the utmost key thing is that the midfielders are used to make the goalscoring opportunities, not pass it to the wing forward/Suarez and let that be that. Gerrard bombed forward alot and there was a goal and a very early on opportunity that could be used to justify his contribution, but he largely looked spent and did nothing to help. Same applies for Allen. I largely feel he needs a rest but what is more important is the fact that he seems to be at this point someone who adds to the possession stats and naught more. He's never adventurous with his passing as we'd like him to be.  Lucas for me cannot be blamed, he had more than enough trouble dealing with maruading counter-attacks that could have been prevented if Allen tracked his man correctly. Sterling is also largely at fault. I have no Gif's to add, but whenever he got the ball he slowed the tempo down to the point where Villa's defence could simply walk into position. He needs to be faster, much much faster. He also looked like someone who had pace and naught more. Continously trying to place balls into dead areas or zones which were highly difficult for us to come away with. The same applied on the otherside with Shelvey. Finally, our final pass was also very poor. Suarez's early interception had the perfect opportunity for Gerrard to have a 1V1, Only to be let down by a criminally bad pass. Other opportunities like such existed, play from Sterling inwards was lacking and Shelveys balls lack precision. Our crosses were to be honest, shit. Either far too over or into an area were you could not possibly hope our player to win.

As for Corners, well don't get me started. We've had on average 3 a game now. We should be atleast threatining with one of them.

I'll take it as a punch to the chin and hope we can improve, but Rodgers needs a plan B. While Barca may never have a 'Plan B' as such, they have the skill and intelligence to adapt to different teams. We do not, we simply face every team the same and against Villa we were punished for it. Rightly so too in my opinion.