Topic: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership

[rocco]

And why do you think that is? Honestly.

Kenny at his stage thinks Cara is the best  choice as 3rd choice.No conspiracy theory needed.

[rossipersempre]

Kenny at his stage thinks Cara is the best  choice as 3rd choice.No conspiracy theory needed.

Seems odd to buy a young international Copa America-winning CB and not even give him much opportunity to claim that 3rd spot though.

[rocco]

Seems odd to buy a young international Copa America-winning CB and not even give him much opportunity to claim that 3rd spot though.

Kenny IMO just at this time see's Cara with his experience the easy choice to step in , up to Coates from the little games and from training to give Kenny second thoughts.
Always thought Cara has been much better when he has come back from been rested/injured etc same with Kuyt .
Coates is still very young and plenty if time but would expect to see a lot more of him next season .

[Eeyore]

It's s shame that not everyone can see the cast-iron sense here Al, and will either not ackonwledge it or argue the opposite.

Neil, wasn't meant as an 'attack' on you personally, apologies if came across that way, just frustration at your continued 'fingers in ears blah blah' stance when it comes to Carragher's faults.

It is Deja Vu earlier in the season we were having the same arguments with the same people over Agger-Skrtel and people were bringing up anything they could think of to justify Carra playing ahead of them when it is pretty obvious why some people are blinded by Carra's demise.

If we had kept none local lad Soto who for me is exactly the same as Carra an ageing Centre back in terminal decline. Then I wonder how many people would be saying that Soto should start ahead of Coates because of his experience. I think 99.9999% of people would be saying that Coates should start and the statistical anomaly would be made up of Fordy voting for Adam.

[Eeyore]

Kenny at his stage thinks Cara is the best  choice as 3rd choice.No conspiracy theory needed.

Yes and Kenny earlier in the season was playing Carra ahead of the Agger-Skrtel partnership.

[Junski17]

What about Johnson @ CB & Kelly @ RB or vice versa?

[Hazell]

Seems odd to buy a young international Copa America-winning CB and not even give him much opportunity to claim that 3rd spot though.

So why do you think that is?

[Hazell]

If we had kept none local lad Soto who for me is exactly the same as Carra an ageing Centre back in terminal decline. Then I wonder how many people would be saying that Soto should start ahead of Coates because of his experience. I think 99.9999% of people would be saying that Coates should start and the statistical anomaly would be made up of Fordy voting for Adam.

[rowan_d]

So why do you think that is?

Look in my eeeeeeeeeeyes, what do ya seeeee?

[Sangria]

People are very quick to jump at the chance of playing a rarely tested new player in Coates over Carra.....who even though has lost his pace, is still a good defender, has leadership, still reads the game well and ffs is a leader on the pitch!

You forgot to mention he's needed to organise the defence.

[MartinSkrtelsBasement]

Good job we didn't throw in a highly inexperienced Neil Mellor against Arsenal back in 2004.

Bit different, Mellor was a striker and it's easier to go missing. He was also only playing through lack of any other alternative.

 A large proportion of defending well comes down to organisation and experience. Would start Coates v any other opposition, apart from City, United, Arsenal, Spurs as we can't afford any 'bedding in' moments this weekend.

Coates will be a star though.

[CHOPPER]

What do you want - pace or experience?  Thats what it comes down to for Saturday.

[MartinSkrtelsBasement]

What do you want - pace or experience?  Thats what it comes down to for Saturday.

I wouldn't say Coates had pace at all.

[Cpt_Reina]

The trouble with citing Coates as a risk because of his inexperience and his 'bedding in' is that it completely ignores the fact that despite Carra's vast experience he is just as likely to fuck up. As he did on a few occasions before his injury.

All of Carra's organisation and experience has done nothing to arrest his decline.

[CHOPPER]

I wouldn't say Coates had pace at all.

Then it's experience versus virtually no experience. Bit of a no brainer then.

[MartinSkrtelsBasement]

The trouble with citing Coates as a risk because of his inexperience and his 'bedding in' is that it completely ignores the fact that despite Carra's vast experience he is just as likely to fuck up. As he did on a few occasions before his injury.

All of Carra's organisation and experience has done nothing to arrest his decline.

I wouldn't dispute this. What I would say is Carragher is more accustomed to the occasion, and has played with Skrtel and Johnno a lot more. I think, come the weekend, that understanding may pay off against a particularly buoyant Arsenal attack.

[rowan_d]

What do you want - pace, strength, heading ability, ball-carrying ability and proficient passing or experience?  Thats what it comes down to for Saturday.

Fixed for accuracy

[The Jackal]

The trouble with citing Coates as a risk because of his inexperience and his 'bedding in' is that it completely ignores the fact that despite Carra's vast experience he is just as likely to fuck up. As he did on a few occasions before his injury.

All of Carra's organisation and experience has done nothing to arrest his decline.

Case in point - it was his man who got the flick on for the Cardiff equaliser..

I'd be surprised if Kenny didn't go for Carra though.

[Camarero25]

Then it's experience versus virtually no experience. Bit of a no brainer then.

Because Coates and Carra are exactly the same player, but Carra's played more?

[Cpt_Reina]

I wouldn't dispute this. What I would say is Carragher is more accustomed to the occasion, and has played with Skrtel and Johnno a lot more. I think, come the weekend, that understanding may pay off against a particularly buoyant Arsenal attack.

Is it a good understanding though?

Skrtel and Johnson have never looked as good with Carra in the team as they have without him.

As for the occasion, yes Carra has more experience of playing in big games. But the man panics more then a Turkey at xmas every time the ball gets anywhere near him or the goal. Its covered up by stock phrases such as 'clearing his lines' and 'no nonsense defending' but its panic. He hates the ball and he hates it being anywhere near him. Its not conducive to the type of football we want to play and if anything it only invites more pressure on the team when he's so insistent on 'clearing his lines'.

[Neil D]

I think that is a pretty clear indication that you do think Carra is third choice right back

Sorry I meant centre back! That's what Shirley was saying which I was referring to.

[rowan_d]

Carragher should in the main be fourth choice centre back, and fourth choice right back. Any objections?

[BobbyDavro]

If Carragher wasn't local this wouldn't be a debate.
His race is run.
His day has been and gone.
Far more often when he's on the pitch he's been a liability than a defensive rock.
He changes our play massively for the worse.

Coates is the future and can be the present.  Carragher is the past.  It's so obvious I can't believe we're debating it.
Who do you want an in-form and flying Van Persie up against?  Carragher?  If you do, fair enough that's your opinion but I think you're mad.
Who do you want Chamberlain and Walcott cutting in against at pace?  Carragher? For his experience?  Me arse, he'll got ripped to shreds against them.

If we were playing someone like Bolton and Davies then I can see the logic of Carragher and think he might have a chance.  Against a team full of speed merchants I'd pick Agger, Skrtel, Coates and Kelly waaaaay before I got to Carragher.

[MartinSkrtelsBasement]

Is it a good understanding though?

Skrtel and Johnson have never looked as good with Carra in the team as they have without him.

As for the occasion, yes Carra has more experience of playing in big games. But the man panics more then a Turkey at xmas every time the ball gets anywhere near him or the goal. Its covered up by stock phrases such as 'clearing his lines' and 'no nonsense defending' but its panic. He hates the ball and he hates it being anywhere near him. Its not conducive to the type of football we want to play and if anything it only invites more pressure on the team when he's so insistent on 'clearing his lines'.

Again I agree that Carragher is not a particularly good footballer but I think Arsenal after their performance last weekend means there will be pressure on us at Anfield, which Carrragher will be better at dealing with.

Any way it's pointless discussing as I think we all know Kenny is going to go with Carra.

[CHOPPER]

Fixed for accuracy

Sadly it won't, it'll come down to stopping Arsenal from scoring and in that, theres is only one real choice. If you know whats best of course.

[CHOPPER]

Because Coates and Carra are exactly the same player, but Carra's played more?

No they're not, but if we were to pick a player who has the experience of these high pressure games who would run through a wall for us and has the organisational skills; then for the time being there is really only one choice to make.

[Yorkykopite]

It's a fight too far at this stage for Kenny to pick Coates over Carragher. Not even Coates would expect him to do that. And Carragher would see it as a humiliation. Merit isn't everything in football and players know that. 

Next season will be different. If Coates hasn't superseded Carragher by then it will mean he's a poor defender. If he's a poor defender next season it will mean he's gone backwards because he looks pretty damn good to me at the moment. If he's gone backwards then big questions will need to be asked about Clarke and the coaching staff.

But for the moment the safe politically choice is the only choice - even if there's an element of football suicide about it.  (Van Persie will be licking his lips I imagine)

[rowan_d]

Sadly it won't, it'll come down to stopping Arsenal from scoring and in that, theres is only one real choice. If you know whats best of course.

His added pace and heading ablity make him as defensively sound as Carra these days. And his superior ability on the ball would give us more possession, thus make us less likely to concede imo

[CHOPPER]

His added pace and heading ablity make him as defensively sound as Carra these days. And his superior ability on the ball would give us more possession, thus make us less likely to concede imo

I'd agree he's quicker but not by yards and heading well yes, maybe, but then weigh that up against experience and the organisational skills that Jamie brings to the table and I'm pretty sure we'll be seeing Jamie at the weekend. Next season that will probably change, but for now, I'd be surprised if we started with anything other than a Carragher and Skrtel partnership, that is of course Agger doesn't make a miraculous recovery.

[mysterio_86]

No they're not, but if we were to pick a player who has the experience of these high pressure games who would run through a wall for us and has the organisational skills; then for the time being there is really only one choice to make.

I would run through a brick wall and can hoof the ball to Wembley - Can I play ? Organisational skills  !

[MazzaRed]

Carra for the moment and especially for this game....

[harleydanger]

Coates for me. Have to factor in Skrtel playing next to carra never works. Also sends a MSG to some of the younger squad members that the team will be picked on merit and not by reputation.

[CHOPPER]

I would run through a brick wall and can hoof the ball to Wembley - Can I play ? Organisational skills  !

Aaaaah, so you think Carragher has no organisational skills. We'll end it there........*That Seinfeld gif*

[TomDcs]

Don't even know why carra is on the right hand side of defence when partnered with skrtel. Didn't he predominately play on the left of defence during 08-09 anyway?

Personally if agger is out I'd rather kenny play coates, who can come out defence with the ball and can pass it and allow us to play higher up the pitch.

Agree with that, from what I've seen of Coates he's more comfortable bringing the ball out of defence then I'd have thought when we signed him. He's got a mistake in him and I'm not sure of the line they'd hold (him and Skrtel) but I think it's a risk worth taking given he needs to be blooded in at some point and Carra is too prone to last ditch recoveries (which was fine as he made most of them a few years ago). We'll miss Agger though regardless.

[rowan_d]

I'd agree he's quicker but not by yards and heading well yes, maybe, but then weigh that up against experience and the organisational skills that Jamie brings to the table and I'm pretty sure we'll be seeing Jamie at the weekend. Next season that will probably change, but for now, I'd be surprised if we started with anything other than a Carragher and Skrtel partnership, that is of course Agger doesn't make a miraculous recovery.

I'm sure Carragher will start, I just don't think he should

[mysterio_86]

No offense man, but if Hyypia can make way for younger member so should he. and I dont think Carragher can offer or has offered 30% of what Hyypia offered in his last 2 years for Liverpool !

[rossipersempre]

It's a fight too far at this stage for Kenny to pick Coates over Carragher. Not even Coates would expect him to do that. And Carragher would see it as a humiliation. Merit isn't everything in football and players know that. 

Next season will be different. If Coates hasn't superseded Carragher by then it will mean he's a poor defender. If he's a poor defender next season it will mean he's gone backwards because he looks pretty damn good to me at the moment. If he's gone backwards then big questions will need to be asked about Clarke and the coaching staff.

But for the moment the safe politically choice is the only choice - even if there's an element of football suicide about it.  (Van Persie will be licking his lips I imagine)

I didn't want to reopen this can of worms in stating the obvious but you've done it for me

The only disagreement there Yorky is the notion that if Coates hasn't replaced Carragher by next season, he's a poor defender. By rights, he should have replaced him this season, but then he's not exactly getting much opportunity to do so for the reasons you've outlined above. It's also a concern that of all people, Kenny is making a political choice as opposed to a footballing one. So much for the vehement claims of him being ruthless and single-minded. The switching of Skrtel on Sunday was a step too far for me, someone's been in his ear probably.

[Eeyore]

No they're not, but if we were to pick a player who has the experience of these high pressure games who would run through a wall for us and has the organisational skills; then for the time being there is really only one choice to make.

Unfortunately Steve Clarke isn't registered so who do you suggest ?   

[farawayred]

Any chance that Kenny will play the three of them - Skrtel, Carra and Coates? Maybe not against Arsenal but some time this season?

And I don't know about Kenny's selection before it's announced (secretly hoping and making a firstborn sacrifice); he's done some 'strange' things in the past...

[shelovesyou]

Was listening to TAW last night and I agree Kenny has to start Carra against Arsenal, especially if Van Persil plays.
Skrtel has more confidence now and wont be so subdued by Carra's shouting etc and can have the confidence to play on the left of the back two.
Coates isnt ready for this kind of test yet.