Topic: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership

[Neil D]

Well said.

[Hazell]

Because it's a massive game and he is a massively experienced player, who I believe, as Shirley does, is still a good player and a pretty damn good third choice back. I think throwing the inexperienced Coates in for such a big game when Carra is fit and rested would be ludicrous. I also think Carragher has looked good when called upon in the last few months - not playing every week appears to have benefited him. Which is why Kenny won't even consider it in my opinion. I think if Agger is out for a while Coates will get time off the bench and maybe at home in the cup or against the likes of Wigan. But not on Saturday in a huge six-pointer against perhaps our best challenger for fourth place.

He didn't against Brighton though. You're right in that Carragher definitely seems to be the 3rd choice centre back but his form in recent seasons suggests he isn't a damn good centre back anymore. Coates will benefit from playing games and he will make mistakes but surely it'd be beneficial for us to have that going forward as opposed to a 34 year old who will make mistakes or at least try and compensate for them by being overtly cautious by retreating to the safety of the 18 yard box and getting rid of the ball more frequently than any of his peers?

[Eeyore]

Because it's a massive game and he is a massively experienced player, who I believe, as Shirley does, is still a good player and a pretty damn good third choice back. I think throwing the inexperienced Coates in for such a big game when Carra is fit and rested would be ludicrous. I also think Carragher has looked good when called upon in the last few months - not playing every week appears to have benefited him. Which is why Kenny won't even consider it in my opinion. I think if Agger is out for a while Coates will get time off the bench and maybe at home in the cup or against the likes of Wigan. But not on Saturday in a huge six-pointer against perhaps our best challenger for fourth place.

In that case could you explain why against Spurs away Skrtel was played at Right back whilst your third choice Right back hid at Centre back. I would have Johnson, Kelly and Flanagan ahead of Carra in a heartbeat.

[rossipersempre]

Because it's a massive game and he is a massively experienced player, who I believe, as Shirley does, is still a good player and a pretty damn good third choice back. I think throwing the inexperienced Coates in for such a big game when Carra is fit and rested would be ludicrous. I also think Carragher has looked good when called upon in the last few months - not playing every week appears to have benefited him. Which is why Kenny won't even consider it in my opinion. I think if Agger is out for a while Coates will get time off the bench and maybe at home in the cup or against the likes of Wigan. But not on Saturday in a huge six-pointer against perhaps our best challenger for fourth place.

So it comes down to the 34-year old Carragher being "massively experienced" and "fit and rested" (didn't see Coates playing 45 mins on Sunday) not to mention a "massive game". Absolutely no misplaced nostalgic reverence at all is there?

Oops I almost forgot, Coates is "inexperienced", not quite true but a bit 'chicken and egg' scenario and doesn't account for the fact that he's played in matches much more high pressure than this (Copa America Final).

As I suspected from you, no footballing logic whatsoever. You don't address the very valid concerns of how we play when Carragher is in the team, nor the inexplicable switching of Skrtel to the left to accommodate him. Not surprising given he's another of your Teflon-coated heroes.

[Neil D]

He didn't against Brighton though. You're right in that Carragher definitely seems to be the 3rd choice centre back but his form in recent seasons suggests he isn't a damn good centre back anymore. Coates will benefit from playing games and he will make mistakes but surely it'd be beneficial for us to have that going forward as opposed to a 34 year old who will make mistakes or at least try and compensate for them by being overtly cautious by retreating to the safety of the 18 yard box and getting rid of the ball more frequently than any of his peers?

Brighton was the week before a cup final and a chance to give playing time to the players pushing for a spot at Wembley. I think Carragher has still had great games in recent seasons as well as good ones, average ones and poor ones. I think he has been played too often for his age and condition and the team in the recent seasons has, at least in 2009-10 and most of 2010-11, largely been poor. When Carra came back under Kenny last year he was mostly very good, as typified by his showings against the likes of Chelsea and Arsenal when he was superb. This is not the game to throw Coates in for. He can always play a week later against the likes of Wigan or Stoke.

In that case could you explain why against Spurs away Skrtel was played at Right back whilst your third choice Right back hid at Centre back. I would have Johnson, Kelly and Flanagan ahead of Carra in a heartbeat.

Sorry I don't understand that post. What do you mean mate?

[Cpt_Reina]

People seem to have forgotten how poor Carra was this season before his injury.

He's not 'solid' or 'dependable' any more. Not going off his form this season, or last.

Coates is already better, imo.

[rossipersempre]

People seem to have forgotten how poor Carra was this season before his injury.

He's not 'solid' or 'dependable' any more. Not going off his form this season, or last.

Coates is already better, imo.

They've not forgotten, it's just they refuse to accept it given he's a Liverpool-born legend and all that...

[Cpt_Reina]

They've not forgotten, it's just they refuse to accept it given he's a Liverpool-born legend and all that...

Also he has those organisational skills. Id have him there for those high pitched screams alone. As we know everyone else in our defence is mute.

[Neil D]

So it comes down to the 34-year old Carragher being "massively experienced" and "fit and rested" (didn't see Coates playing 45 mins on Sunday) not to mention a "massive game". Absolutely no misplaced nostalgic reverence at all is there?

Oops I almost forgot, Coates is "inexperienced", not quite true but a bit 'chicken and egg' scenario and doesn't account for the fact that he's played in matches much more high pressure than this (Copa America Final).

As I suspected from you, no footballing logic whatsoever. You don't address the very valid concerns of how we play when Carragher is in the team, nor the inexplicable switching of Skrtel to the left to accommodate him. Not surprising given he's another of your Teflon-coated heroes.

Don't resort to your old tactics of being selective in what you quote, I also said he is "still a good player" and "has looked good when called upon in the last few months". There is nothing nostalgic about that, no. And after 45 minutes a week previously he is still going to be fit and rested, clearly.

Coates is inexperienced in the Premiership. FACT. He doesn't have much experience playing for Liverpool or with our players. FACT.

I don't know why I even bother replying to your venom-laced posts. Why do you behave like such a dick on here and respond with insults like that? I'm happy to explain further that I think the benefits of Carragher's qualities compared to Coates outweigh the concerns of us having to drop deeper in defence, or that I think it makes sense if you have two players, one ageing and the other at his peak, to have the defender at his peak play in the position that allows the ageing player to play in his favoured position and helps mask some of the ageing players faults.

You may not agree, but there is no need to resort to attacking me rather than what I say. I hoped in recent times we were past all this squabbling. Obviously not.

[Hazell]

Brighton was the week before a cup final and a chance to give playing time to the players pushing for a spot at Wembley. I think Carragher has still had great games in recent seasons as well as good ones, average ones and poor ones. I think he has been played too often for his age and condition and the team in the recent seasons has, at least in 2009-10 and most of 2010-11, largely been poor. When Carra came back under Kenny last year he was mostly very good, as typified by his showings against the likes of Chelsea and Arsenal when he was superb. This is not the game to throw Coates in for. He can always play a week later against the likes of Wigan or Stoke.

You make a good point about Chelsea and Arsenal games. In both games, we were mainly of the defensive and Carragher gave his famous 'backs to wall' type performances. Going forward, would we want that or would we want to try and be more progressive? Coates may be inexperienced compared to Carragher but he's played in big international matches and is highly rated for a reason. I'd love him to get rid of his 'inexperience' by playing some matches. As you've said, Carragher has been poor in recent seasons and rested or not, at 34 he's not going to change his game. Early this season, he was poor anyway, making mistakes which led to goals against Bolton and Stoke and it was only through injury than the Skrtel-Agger partnership was allowed to develop. I'd hope that Coates is allowed to develop as quickly as possible and with one of those 2 out, it would be an opportunity for him to do so.

[Carlito Roberto]

I wonder what Coates' thinks about being fourth choice centre back. If he'd have known that in the first place he'd have probably have jibbed it. Already first choice for his country he could have gone to a Champions League team and been first choice. That way he'd have kept his place in the national team and continued in his development. As it stands we're nearly into March and he's played one league game for his new team.

A penny for his thoughts if Carra gets the shout on Saturday....

[Eeyore]

You were surprised? Really? You're quite naive aren't you?

Of course it was going to be Carragher. It was a cup final, he has a vast amount of experience and we needed him to organise our shambles of a midfield. It's not hard.

FWIW Coates has done absolutely nothing to deserve being in the pecking order ahead of him either.

If you have an experienced back four and a new keeper then of course you have to take into account the advantage that experience gives you but we haven't we have Skrtel playing at the top of his game, Reina as a rock of a keeper and probably the best full back pairing in the League. If you cannot embrace the future now then when can you.

Coates is far more experienced than Flanagan and Robinson yet they were a revelation. Skrtel thrives when he has the freedom to go and attack the ball with the knowledge that he has someone with pace to cover in behind him. Coates is far quicker than Carra a natural centre back and someone who has been used as a sweeper because of his pace and reading of the game exactly what Skrtel needs alongside him.

Keep Skrtel in the position where he has been absolutely top drawer this season on the right side of the defence and play to his strengths instead of completely changing the centre back pairing in some doomed attempt to cover for Carra's glaring weaknesses.

[spider-neil]

People seem to have forgotten how poor Carra was this season before his injury.

He's not 'solid' or 'dependable' any more. Not going off his form this season, or last.

Coates is already better, imo.

based on...?

[Neil D]

You make a good point about Chelsea and Arsenal games. In both games, we were mainly of the defensive and Carragher gave his famous 'backs to wall' type performances. Going forward, would we want that or would we want to try and be more progressive? Coates may be inexperienced compared to Carragher but he's played in big international matches and is highly rated for a reason. I'd love him to get rid of his 'inexperience' by playing some matches. As you've said, Carragher has been poor in recent seasons and rested or not, at 34 he's not going to change his game. Early this season, he was poor anyway, making mistakes which led to goals against Bolton and Stoke and it was only through injury than the Skrtel-Agger partnership was allowed to develop. I'd hope that Coates is allowed to develop as quickly as possible and with one of those 2 out, it would be an opportunity for him to do so.

Cheers. I'd love to see Coates bleeded in over the coming weeks, getting time off the bench and maybe a start when we face Stoke, Wigan and QPR. He is the future, not Carra. Just don't think Saturday is the time to do it, or a game like the derby for example. I suspect Kenny will go with my view.

[Cpt_Reina]

based on...?

Watching the two of them play.

[Camarero25]

People seem to have forgotten how poor Carra was this season before his injury.

He's not 'solid' or 'dependable' any more. Not going off his form this season, or last.

Coates is already better, imo.

Exactly. For me, it's debatable whether Carra's actually a better player than Coates at this stage in his career. Surely we'd rather have Coates playing and learning from his mistakes than Carra, who will also make mistakes, but is only going to get worse the older he gets.

Also, how will Coates ever get experience if we don't play him? Not to mention the fact he's dealt with high pressure situations before, such as a Copa America Final or in the quarters against Messi's Argentina.

[Eeyore]

Brighton was the week before a cup final and a chance to give playing time to the players pushing for a spot at Wembley. I think Carragher has still had great games in recent seasons as well as good ones, average ones and poor ones. I think he has been played too often for his age and condition and the team in the recent seasons has, at least in 2009-10 and most of 2010-11, largely been poor. When Carra came back under Kenny last year he was mostly very good, as typified by his showings against the likes of Chelsea and Arsenal when he was superb. This is not the game to throw Coates in for. He can always play a week later against the likes of Wigan or Stoke.

Sorry I don't understand that post. What do you mean mate?

It's very simple Carra is only our 3rd choice right back when it suits him if there is a Downing or a Bale playing on the left he doesn't fancy it. Against Spurs we had Carra, Agger, Skrtel and Enrique yet the fella you consider the third choice full back played at Centre back whilst Skrtel who is a natural centre back was played at Right back against Bale.

[Neil D]

People seem to have forgotten how poor Carra was this season before his injury.

He's not 'solid' or 'dependable' any more. Not going off his form this season, or last.

Coates is already better, imo.

Last season he was mainly good under Kenny though. He had a good last four months. And when he has come into the team in the last couple of months, he has been solid and reliable.

I don't think we've seen enough of Coates to make that call yet. But happy to see Coates get more chances when the opposition we face is not as tough.

[rossipersempre]

Skrtel thrives when he has the freedom to go and attack the ball with the knowledge that he has someone with pace to cover in behind him. Coates is far quicker than Carra a natural centre back and someone who has been used as a sweeper because of his pace and reading of the game exactly what Skrtel needs alongside him.

Keep Skrtel in the position where he has been absolutely top drawer this season on the right side of the defence and play to his strengths instead of completely changing the centre back pairing in some doomed attempt to cover for Carra's glaring weaknesses.

It's s shame that not everyone can see the cast-iron sense here Al, and will either not ackonwledge it or argue the opposite.

Neil, wasn't meant as an 'attack' on you personally, apologies if came across that way, just frustration at your continued 'fingers in ears blah blah' stance when it comes to Carragher's faults.

[rossipersempre]

I don't think we've seen enough of Coates to make that call yet. But happy to see Coates get more chances when the opposition we face is not as tough.

The match is tough, I wouldn't necessarily say the opposition is so. They're as inconsistent as we are, and have suffered complete breakdowns on the pitch at times this season despite their own 'cup final' win at the weekend.

[Neil D]

It's very simple Carra is only our 3rd choice right back when it suits him if there is a Downing or a Bale playing on the left he doesn't fancy it. Against Spurs we had Carra, Agger, Skrtel and Enrique yet the fella you consider the third choice full back played at Centre back whilst Skrtel who is a natural centre back was played at Right back against Bale.

Right, well firstly I don't think it makes sense to play Carra with his lack of pace against a Downing or Bale, you say 'when it suits him' or he 'doesn't fancy it' but I would imagine it's Kenny, as our manager, who makes that call and I would agree with the King it is daft to play Carra against Gareth Bale! Which is why I imagine Kenny went for that option. Was Martin Kelly fit at the time? I don't recall, I have a feeling he was out injured.

I don't think I've said that I consider Carra to be our third choice full back.

[arnaldo]

Is agger definately out of Saturdays game?

[rossipersempre]

Is agger definately out of Saturdays game?

Given the initial report and lack of contrary statement since, unfortunately I think it's reasonable to assume he'll be out for the next few at least.

[Cpt_Reina]

Last season he was mainly good under Kenny though. He had a good last four months. And when he has come into the team in the last couple of months, he has been solid and reliable.

I don't think we've seen enough of Coates to make that call yet. But happy to see Coates get more chances when the opposition we face is not as tough.

In the past few months he's started against the likes of Brighton, Stoke and Oldham. And come off the bench for cameos against Cardiff, Wolves and Man City (where he looked all at sea, as did most of our back line to be fair).

Even if he has looked reliable, its hardly the great and the good he's been picking up minutes against is it? Certainly not enough to build a case for his inclusion.

[Neil D]

Neil, wasn't meant as an 'attack' on you personally, apologies if came across that way, just frustration at your continued 'fingers in ears blah blah' stance when it comes to Carragher's faults.

Fair enough mate. I can see his faults, I'm very happy he is no longer first choice. But not convinced Coates is a better choice than Carra yet when Agger is injured.

[eeayeaddio]

I agree with Neil. I don't know how you can trust Coates for a game like this having had such limited experience playing in our country, let alone in our team. Not yet for him.

[Neil D]

In the past few months he's started against the likes of Brighton, Stoke and Oldham. And come off the bench for cameos against Cardiff, Wolves and Man City (where he looked all at sea, as did most of our back line to be fair).

Even if he has looked reliable, its hardly the great and the good he's been picking up minutes against is it? Certainly not enough to build a case for his inclusion.

Yeah against City I don't think half of them knew where they were playing!

I think Stoke are tough opposition but I take your point. I just think he is clearly third choice, believe that is right, and firmly believe that he will come into the team on Saturday. I don't think Kenny will even be considering Coates for this one, making this debate a bit redundant.

[rossipersempre]

Good job we didn't throw in a highly inexperienced Neil Mellor against Arsenal back in 2004.

[Cpt_Reina]

Yeah against City I don't think half of them knew where they were playing!

I think Stoke are tough opposition but I take your point. I just think he is clearly third choice, believe that is right, and firmly believe that he will come into the team on Saturday. I don't think Kenny will even be considering Coates for this one, making this debate a bit redundant.

I agree, I just think its a shame.

I certainly dont think it's as much a non-decision as I believe Kenny does though.

One thing ive forgotten about however is that Uruguay play in Bucharest tonight. I trust Coates has travelled. Which is hardly ideal with an early kick off on Saturday.

[rossipersempre]

I agree, I just think its a shame.

I certainly dont think it's as much a non-decision as I believe Kenny does though.

One thing ive forgotten about however is that Uruguay play in Bucharest tonight. I trust Coates has travelled. Which is hardly ideal with an early kick off on Saturday.

3 hour flight from Manchester, wouldn't be much less travel time if they were at Wembley. Of course Carragher doesn't have international football to tire him out.

[Hazell]

Fair points Neil. I do agree that Kenny is likely to pick Carragher if Agger's out but really feel that Coates should have already played more this season and should now be 3rd choice. Still, always good to hear a counter view point when done in a rational manner and explained properly.

[Camarero25]

Fair enough mate. I can see his faults, I'm very happy he is no longer first choice. But not convinced Coates is a better choice than Carra yet when Agger is injured.

Personally, I think Coates is the better choice, but even if he isn't, surely it benefits us more in the long term to play him whilst Agger is out? You know, to give him "experience" in these kind of games and to get him used to English football.

[rossipersempre]

Fair points Neil. I do agree that Kenny is likely to pick Carragher if Agger's out but really feel that Coates should have already played more this season and should now be 3rd choice.

How exactly do you envisage Coates to have played more, given the Agger/Skrtel Axis of Steel?

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

I'm in the Coates camp.

Fourth is just about gone anyway, going defensive with Carra (and therefore losing some ttacking impetus) is pointless. Give Coates a stern test and see how he does. I think we'll be surprised how he copes. Well, we won;t becuase it won't happen. But I can dream.

[rossipersempre]

Personally, I think Coates is the better choice, but even if he isn't, surely it benefits us more in the long term to play him whilst Agger is out? You know, to give him "experience" in these kind of games and to get him used to English football.

No no, you forget it's a "massive" game and obviously his lack of PL experience means he's infinitely more likely to fuck up than Carragher.

[new-red]

If carra plays, we will get murdered. He reads the game very well but that doesn't matter when theo walcott is running by you as if you were stuck in cement. He affects the entire dynamic of our team play and disrupts the fluidity of the attack and our ability to control a match or take hold of a match.

I don't see Kenny going for Coates over him but imo, he just has to.

At the very least, if carra is going to start then add Coates to the backline as well and make it 352 type formation with GJ and Enrique given a much more expanded license to roam and attack.

You cannot ask Carra to deal with the type of pace we are about to face. He cannot handle it.

[Eeyore]

Because it's a massive game and he is a massively experienced player, who I believe, as Shirley does, is still a good player and a pretty damn good third choice back. I think throwing the inexperienced Coates in for such a big game when Carra is fit and rested would be ludicrous. I also think Carragher has looked good when called upon in the last few months - not playing every week appears to have benefited him. Which is why Kenny won't even consider it in my opinion. I think if Agger is out for a while Coates will get time off the bench and maybe at home in the cup or against the likes of Wigan. But not on Saturday in a huge six-pointer against perhaps our best challenger for fourth place.

Right, well firstly I don't think it makes sense to play Carra with his lack of pace against a Downing or Bale, you say 'when it suits him' or he 'doesn't fancy it' but I would imagine it's Kenny, as our manager, who makes that call and I would agree with the King it is daft to play Carra against Gareth Bale! Which is why I imagine Kenny went for that option. Was Martin Kelly fit at the time? I don't recall, I have a feeling he was out injured.

I don't think I've said that I consider Carra to be our third choice full back.

I think that is a pretty clear indication that you do think Carra is third choice right back

[Hazell]

How exactly do you envisage Coates to have played more, given the Agger/Skrtel Axis of Steel?

Obviously whenever one of them has been out. Brighton, Wolves, Everton, Man Utd. There have been games when Carragher been involved and Coates hasn't.

[rossipersempre]

Obviously whenever one of them has been out. Brighton, Wolves, Everton, Man Utd. There have been games when Carragher been involved and Coates hasn't.

And why do you think that is? Honestly.

[Hazell]

And why do you think that is? Honestly.

Well Kenny obviously feels that Carragher's been more worthy of that berth than Coates. I think there are reasons for that but don't really want to mention them in this thread as I know it'll go off topic. Why do you think that is?