Author Topic: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]  (Read 14999 times)

Offline jaffod

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #40 on: November 2, 2014, 08:55:08 pm »
Pace is everything in the modern game and we have got to be the slowest team in the league. There have been numerous occasions at home this season where we've had a break on and it's been infuriating to see the midfield ambling up the pitch at a snail's pace instead of busting a gut to get into the box. But it's not just that, it's the slowness in our tempo all over the pitch that's the problem. instead of quick, incisive passing we just pass the ball about in front of the opposition defence with nobody up top making a decent run that someone like Coutinho can pick out. Sometimes we play 15-20 passes and end up back where we started.
 Until we start to pass and move at a higher tempo I don't see much changing.

Offline OOS

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #41 on: November 2, 2014, 09:16:45 pm »
Why persist with a deep lying player against teams that park the bus. Why not flip that and put the man behind Balotelli. Occupy the space and give Newcastle something else to think about. Also gives an option to Balotelli to make runs off, or that man making runs to drag defenders out to make space for him and others. Also having a man that deep that offers nothing forward because Newcastle were not going to move forward and make space so it was like passing the ball like a needle in a haystack. The long ball is great against teams that play a high line, but its near impossible to play the long ball game to Sterling and Phil out wide especially in tight areas where they have to win the aerial duels and then the second ball with no support. No surprise our best performances are against teams with a high line (Spurs, Arsenal ect..)

I'd like to see the team push forward and choke teams. Move the defence to the half way line, play calm and use our technically gifted players to find an opening. It would get the best out of our midfielders who are good in tight areas and have an eye for a pass and use the pace of the forwards to get behind the opposition defence.
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Offline The Playmaker

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #42 on: November 2, 2014, 09:21:38 pm »
I would have to say that was probably the worst game I’ve watched this season. The level of performance was incredibly poor from our team. Yes, we had over 60% of the ball during the match but it was all so predictable at times. There was little in the way of movement, intensity and creativity. The team just looked like they wanted to conserve some energy and it really did show. This might be unfair and probably wrong but maybe the team was thinking about Real Madrid and Chelsea. Those will undoubtedly be tougher tests with more demands being asked of the players. Even so, the passing was ponderous. Every time we went forward I didn’t feel like we would create good enough chances to score.

We saw some really poor decision making and some basic passes not even meeting their intended targets. On top of being predictable - the whole spraying the ball wide from Gerrard or Lovren didn't work yesterday - not with Newcastle United sitting so deep. But even more worrying is the lack of efforts on target in the final third. In the last two league games, it felt like the team played mostly in cruise control - without any urgency or purpose. Newcastle United really didn’t offer a great deal. They kept their shape and sat very deep - waiting for a chance or two to come their way - either from a set-piece or a counter-attack. They put in a disciplined performance but again: they didn’t offer a great deal going forward.

With the way that we played, we never really tested them enough or brought them out of their shape. Nobody from midfield really bothered to make any runs in behind their defence. It was the same against Hull City. There wasn't much fear from the opposition about us having the ball for long spells. They would have been happy with a point, no doubt. And this is part of the problem for us. When teams sit deep like that we struggle to break them down. If we can't find ways to make it happen for us - then we will continue to struggle. We've got to work on that.

It could be argued that we have seen pragmatic performances as of late. It isn’t a surprise. But I wonder against teams that sit deep; do we need to be so pragmatic? Surely we should look to outnumber them in advanced positions? Yes, there is a need for balance. But why isolate our only striker against a packed defence? I feel like we are creating some of our problems. And also, I do acknowledge that there is usually a chance of at least a goal for the opposition. Before the Hull City game, we hadn't kept a clean sheet for about 17 or 18 games. Four defeats in ten league games means that we are in a very tricky position. A UEFA Champions League spot isn't out of reach but we need to fix some of these problems and find some solutions.

More importantly - we need to see our team playing the game again. We’ve had one very good performance so far this season. The rest - regardless of results - haven’t been good enough. And that is always the key for me. If you are playing well, creating chances and maybe you still lose - at least you know that in other games you will probably take those kind of chances that you have created. The last two league games have been frustrating. Did we have a couple of clear cut chances? Yes. But we didn't take them.

Steven Gerrard said this last season: “If teams wants to play two versus two against these two - Suarez and Sturridge - all the best!” - This season, it hasn’t been like that - of course. Luis Suarez left and Daniel Sturridge has mostly been injured. Il Liverpool touched on how they weren't a partnership in the truest sense earlier on in the thread and I fully agree with that. At times, it felt like Suarez and Sturridge had a bit of a friendly rivalry going on. It worked well. It was competition. It brought out the best in them and the team during many matches.

Put aside their goals for a second - we've lost so much more than that. To top it all off - we have persisted with using Mario Balotelli as a lone striker. Mario has often been isolated and at times, has operated from the wings or dropped deeper to receive the ball from midifeld. The opposition needn’t worry about any 2v2 situations right now; because they don’t exist. When Mario vacates the central position you are often looking at either Coutinho or Sterling to fill it. And neither have really done it. As I mentioned above: Sterling was mostly playing wide yesterday. Coutinho is arguably better when he plays slightly deeper and has forwards making runs in behind the opposition defence.

And Sterling probably played his better stuff last season at the tip of a diamond. The thing about Sterling and Coutinho is that they are still young and therefore they sometimes make the wrong decisions - and sometimes their ideas doesn’t come off. But in general, they are both exciting talents and they work incredibly hard for the team. In my eyes, Brendan Rodgers must find a way to get them both ticking if we’re to have any joy this season. But equally - I'm sure that he will look to rotate them in and out with the likes of Lallana and Markovic as the season progresses. He has already been doing that with Coutinho, in particular.

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #43 on: November 2, 2014, 09:40:40 pm »
We posted 2 shots in the box and 3 on target - both the lowest ever under Rodgers
It was a horrific performance

I have no clue why we set up with 2 sitting midfielders against a team that sits off and plays on the counter
We should have seen this in scouting but as soon as it was obvious just how deep they were dropping off we should have pushed Allen on, gone into a diamond or a simliar formation but regardless Gerrard should have played as DM and split the centre backs to push the full backs higher
I understand being worried about teams pressing high against Gerrard but Newcastle weren't doing that

More worrying is our overall attacking play
We seem incapable of playing through midfield, of any kind of short passing and moving. In matches this season it we knock it around between the back 4, Gerrard and sometimes the other midfielders come all the way back to the back four to pick up the ball, can't play through the opposition midfield and end up hitting it long

I have no fucking clue why we're playing Sterling wide right. It's his worst position by far when compared to centrally or cutting in from the left.
Hitting long balls to him is ridiculous - it allows his fullback to get tight and muscle him off the ball or just make it difficult for him
He finished last season playing through the middle and has looked best doing that this season - why has he been moved?

Our attacking scheme ends up with a back 4 plus Gerrard and whoever is playing next to him then a big fucking gap to 4 'attackers' who don't get in the game or who get it lumped up to them
It's unbelievable how far we've got away from how we played last season - or even against Spurs this

Can't be bothered to post about the defence it's too tedious for words

 
















Offline skooma

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #44 on: November 2, 2014, 09:51:36 pm »
Its really difficult to put a finger on what's gone wrong this season. Indeed you'd probably end up using both hands, so many issues at present. Conspiracy theories aside (the Gerrard contract, owner situation, transfer committee), there are several worrying trends.

Foremost to me is the fundamental lack of trust shown by the manager to certain players, and over-confidence by the manager in the abilities of other players. I mean, surely the idea of getting players in (Markovic, Lallana, Can, Lambert, Sakho) was to USE them, partly in order to keep the team fresh, replace tired players with like for like replacements? I mean its ok to say that Markovic needs time out in order to adjust to his new environment etc, but Lallana? Sakho? Or are we just simply going to burn the shit out of Sterling/Coutinho/Henderson by not trusting Lallana or Markovic to do a job in several games/30 minute cameos??  Otherwise what is the point of signing them? I fear for Sterling in particular, we're going to wreck him by having no confience at all in the players we bought (and it can't be doing them any good when their only thought on matchday will be whether they are out the squad altogether or on the bench). What must they be thinking?

Last season Markovic was a regular in a League winning team, Lallana goes home on a matchnight, watches MOTD and must be wondering why the hell he didn't stay at Southampton and work with Koeman. They are full internationals, and they must be frustrated to hell and back. They have to be given more opportunities. The same applies to Lambert.. although with less fervour.. but the man surely doesn't feel happy to know that he effectively signed off his football career when he penned the contract, even if it was to join his boyhood club.

The treatment of Lucas is another concern, but I'll leave that aside for now, but I have to say it baffles me.

Then there's the favouritism shown by the manager to 5 current players. And in some cases they stink the place out. I would need to have someone take me aside and explain carefully why Glen Johnson is a starter in our team (yes yes, I'm scapegoating I know)....  but the man who thinks that player deserves to start ahead of Manquillo, even Andre Wisdom for heaven's sake, well they clearly know a lot more than I do.  And the captain needs rotation as well. He has been far from the worst performer, but he certainly shares the common factor with others of suffering a serious dip in form compared to last season. The man needs resting now and agin, its so obvious. I don't know what is going on behind the scenes regarding his contract stuff, but mentally and physically he looks wrecked. Take him out for a game or two. He must be drained in his head, thinking back to last season, the slip, the Title in his hands at last... then yet again he sees the talisman sold, the World Cup debacle, the sight of a chance at the League gone in October (again) and his hopes and dreams flushed away in the toilet bowl of his Club's ambition (or lack of) once more. Rest the fucking man for a fortnight. Send him away to a spa with Steve Peters.     I'll toss the issues of Mignolet, Skirtel and Balotelli to the scribes.

What I most want to know is why has our get up and go so clearly got up and gone?

Where is the delight, the joy, the movement of 5 months ago, gone to?  Our manager talked often last year about giving young players freedom to play. To express themselves.  What's happened to Henderson?? We hoped he'd kick on and become the 10 goal/10 assist player we know he can be? Not on current form. His joie de vivre is astonishingly lacking. Same thing applies to Sterling/Coutinho.

Yet again another season where at worst we needed to consolidate what we did last season, if not push on to better things even, has been a spectacular car crash. And I don't blame, entirely, the new signings. As Killer says, and I agree, more than most have looked decent, well the others might too, if only they'd get a fucking chance now and then. Its the change from pacy joyful football to a turgid, limp 'lets get this game over' attitude that bothers me. And I have no explanation what's gone on to make that so.

This is on point. I'm really confused by what the team does W.R.T transfers sometimes. They spend all this money and time getting players and then I never another word about them until they get transferred somewhere else.

I think some experimentation and rotation is in order. The team already lost to Newcastle, so what would we have had to lose by shaking things up a bit? Could Lucas be that much of a step down?

Offline Mountainman

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #45 on: November 2, 2014, 10:39:33 pm »
Let's see where we are by next Sunday evening. Probably in a bad place.....

Besides the two upfront thing, would mix up the team. Under performance has to have consequences. Give others a chance. Toure in defence. Can, Markovic, Lallana to start from now on. Borini or Lambert to partner Mario. Rest Gerrard, Sterling, Henderson, they are tired and need a rest, they can be on bench.

Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #46 on: November 2, 2014, 10:41:33 pm »
All I'll say is it just seems to be the trend with us after a good season or period instead on building on it as best we can we for some reason we just seem to want to throw it all away. After Kenny took over the 6 month or so period we played really good football, in the summer we bought players that completely negated all the good things we had done and suffered for it. We're doing it again, all that fast, pacy, high tempo football we played last season and did so well. This summer we have bought in strikers who are the opposite of that.

I think Balo and Lambert are good players in their own right but IMO they don't fit we what we did last season. I know Suarez is irreplaceable but why not just go for someone who offers qualities that are closer to the man. No doubt I'm speaking from hindsight but obviously there are people who are paid to take such things into consideration. We're not a team of superstars, not even last season. We did so well due to our style of play and Suarez benefitted greatly from it. Would like to see us go back to setting our team with quick, technical players.

The Newcastle game was so horrible to watch, I don't remember seeing us play so many long balls in a long time. We just lacked quality all round, in passing, creativity, defending, etc. I thought the closest I have seen us this season looking anything like we did last season was second half against Real Madrid where we played a lot of nice intricate football.

I think it would be a lot better for us to try to fit someone like Borini into the team as he's a closest fit to what we need.

Offline 007.lankyguy

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #47 on: November 2, 2014, 10:49:48 pm »
Effectively, the team ended up tactically broken yesterday. The positional changes were clearly intended to give us options of playing through midfield; in possession we played with four midfielders through the middle in a 3-2-4-1 - Gerrard and Allen deep, Henderson and Coutinho high up in the channels/half spaces between Newcastle's wide men and CMs. I don't know if Rodgers expected Newcastle to be more aggressive and to pressure us high up, thus leaving space between the lines but that's what we seemed prepared for.

The problem was that Newcastle didn't do that. Our back three was left unchallenged in possession and Sissoko and Cisse just dropped off onto Allen and Gerrard instead. That meant Allen and Gerrard had to drop deep to receive or even move wider, thus completely disconnecting our midfield - the system was based around us associating play through the middle and having Henderson and Coutinho linking the team together but we couldn't do that because of the way Newcastle adapted defensively, nor did we ourselves then adapt. So we had the team pretty much split in two - the back three redundant, circulating meaningless possession at the back, Gerrard and Allen unable to to dominate and connect with Henderson and Coutinho through the middle, and the whole team unable to dictate the game.

Rodgers is going to have to start finding better tactical solutions because right now, we are continually failing to exert genuine control in any area
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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #48 on: November 2, 2014, 10:59:03 pm »
That Newcastle defence would have been shitting itself facing Sturridge and Suarez, but they hardly broke a sweat against our lack lustre slow attack.

We are playing like a cliche of Spurs without Bale, but we are better than that, and I still have hope we will improve.

Moreno had his worst game in a red shirt, and Johnson sometimes looks like he doesn't care and isn't hungry.
Mignolet needs some real competition for his spot.

We could have played for another 90 minutes and still not scored, and that is 180 minutes without a league goal.

Offline GrkStav

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #49 on: November 2, 2014, 11:58:16 pm »
BR used the same basic formation vs NUFC as the one he used vs SCAFC:

GK, 2 CBs and a fullback deployed as a CB
2 withdrawn CMs plus a wingback
3 advanced midfielders (2 wide ones, of which one only stayed wide, and a central one)
1 Striker/center-forward

As strange as it looks: 1-3-3-3-1

Vs SCAFC we had Jones, Toure and Lovren as the CBs and Johnson as the FB being used as CB, but as a LCB. We know, from having seen Johnson deployed as a LB, that he actually plays a more 'reserved'/methodical game when deployed on the left, with fewer and more 'mature' forays forward than when he plays on the right.

Vs NUFC, we had Skrtel and Lovren as the CBs and Johnson again being used as a CB but this time as RCB. In my judgment, that was a cardinal error. Johnson was not disciplined and as the game progressed he played more and more as a RB than a RCB, and, unfortunately, did so in his own inimitable ways of late, amounting to becoming a defensive liability (losing possession while high up the pitch, etc).

In the first 'line' ahead of the back line, we had Gerrard and Allen being deployed as the CMs, with Moreno as the designated WB, on the left. Vs SCAFC, it was Lucas and Henderson in CM with Manquillo as the designated WB, on the right. Neither Lucas nor Henderson found themselves 'on the toes' of the CBs (much) vs SCAFC. The same cannot be said about Allen and Gerrard. Notwithstanding Gerrard's great passing abilities, and despite some forays up the pitch in the 1st half (most of which went undetected and not taken advantage of, especially by the, unfortunately, hapless Johnson), I am not quite sure what the point of having Gerrard standing 4-5 yards away from Skrtel and Lovren is. You cannot possibly make an opposition player's job easier through your spacing than by doing just that. Allen, for me, had one of his least impressive games for us vs NUFC, although, in all fairness, he wasn't helped by the setup, the movement of players 'ahead' of him, and what they did upon receiving passes from him (Henderson, especially).

Further up the pitch we had Borini Coutinho and Markovic vs SCAFC. Vs NUFC it was Sterling, Henderson and Coutinho. Sterling was the one who stayed wide, while Henderson and Coutinho interchanges and were mostly centrali-ish (perhaps to allow Moreno some 'space' to operate). I do not think that worked out well, AT ALL. Henderson had a mediocre performance; I think one can legitimately conclude we got NOTHING positive out of him being deployed further forward, whether in attack or 'defensively'. All of his relative weakness came out, and none of his relative strengths were on display.

Why Sterling was not more effective, or more effectively used, I am not 100% sure of. Despite being well-rested, he seemed a bit jaded. He certainly tried to make an impact and was industrious.

Up top, Balotelli was neither (much) better nor worse than Lambert was vs SCAFC.

Why Lallana neither started nor was brought on as a substitute (as he was vs SCAFC and to good effect) is a mystery to me.
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Offline Alonso_The_Assassin

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #50 on: November 3, 2014, 12:05:10 am »
The reality is the fact that we look inept with one up top and have done since Brendan employed this formation. The concern is he’s apparent stubbornness to change things. People ready to throw Balotelli under the bus; here's a thing to consider. The service to him has been nothing short of piss poor. Yes, piss poor. Glen Johnson probably touched the ball the most. He probably had 20 or so touches more than Gerrard, Skrtel and Lovren. We can't move the ball from the back with any conviction. It's called tempo. We lack it in abundance at the moment and to be fair, it’s beyond agonising to watch.

Some questions, which, quite frankly, are causing me sleepless nights.

Does Brendan actually know his best side? Why does he persist with a right back who won’t be offered a new contract and continues to regress as each minute passes while a perfectly able replacement in Javier Manquillo sits ponderously on the bench? This along with the decision to place Steven Gerrard on the team sheet week-in week-out are two decisions in which will stifle our ability to make the top four. That may sound dramatic, but sometimes the truth hurts. The former is simply not good enough for a top four team any longer, while the latter, while a true leader and legend of our great club, just shouldn’t be starting every match due to his own regressions. Trying to accommodate a player of his age into a style of play that requires a quick tempo is simply trying to put a square peg in a round hole. The worrying thing is that we have personnel to at least try to implement these things, yet are beyond apprehensive to put the practice into play.

Why does a player in Adam Lallana, our ‘marquee’ signing, sit on the bench? Surely we must find a way to accommodate both he and Coutinho in the same side? It worked against West Brom, that’s for sure. Why can’t Fabio Borini, Lucas Leiva, Kolo Toure, all of whom played their part in our preceding win in the Cup , fail to accumulate any decent game time? For me, Borini should’ve started in a 4-4-2 diamond formation, as mentioned above by Suareznumber7. He might not be the most gifted of players to grace our team sheet, but what he lacks in ability, he makes up for in guile and determination, which are two admirable traits that just might help drag us out of the slump we’re currently in.

I love Brendan to bits and hope he manages us for the next 10 years, but he’s approaching the point where he needs to make some tough decisions. This was always going to be a tough exercise in the wake of losing Suarez, but it's evident that with the current formation and personnel he continues to select week-in week-out that things need tinkering. It's very worrying that Brendan seems so reluctant to do so.

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #51 on: November 3, 2014, 12:13:16 am »
Some questions, which, quite frankly, are causing me sleepless nights.

Don't worry about it lad.

Have some night nurse and get a good nights rest.

It's not your problem to fix!

Yeah it's a shame that the club is doing so poorly, but at the same time it's because it's a pretty terribly run club. So the club is getting what it should expect.
 
I'm not talking about Rodgers and FSG here either.

For as long as I can remember, Liverpool Football Club has always been a shambles, and I'm not surprised we've reverted to type after last seasons thrillers.

In short, get some sleep, because sleep is nice.
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Offline The Flying Pig

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #52 on: November 3, 2014, 12:34:52 am »
Skrtl and Lovren doesn't work.

One up front doesn't work.

I've no idea what we're trying to do in midfield but it's not working.

Sterling on the touchline doesn't work.

Our goalkeeper looks like a nervous wreck.

Yet we're doing some or all of the above week after week. Is this BR being stubborn or do we have no other options?
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Offline gjr1

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #53 on: November 3, 2014, 01:45:56 am »
Pace is everything in the modern game and we have got to be the slowest team in the league. There have been numerous occasions at home this season where we've had a break on and it's been infuriating to see the midfield ambling up the pitch at a snail's pace instead of busting a gut to get into the box. But it's not just that, it's the slowness in our tempo all over the pitch that's the problem. instead of quick, incisive passing we just pass the ball about in front of the opposition defence with nobody up top making a decent run that someone like Coutinho can pick out. Sometimes we play 15-20 passes and end up back where we started.
 Until we start to pass and move at a higher tempo I don't see much changing.

This.

Not much point in having 64% possession if the end result is chipping/punting the ball towards Sterling and Balotelli only to lose it or get squeezed out.

It's funny but once we started playing a higher tempo was when we conceeded but that's by-the-by for me.
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Offline plums123

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #54 on: November 3, 2014, 02:54:12 am »
A general current observation of the current form of some of our players.

Mignolet needs to talk technique with Ray Clemence.
Balo say no more.
Gerrard has to drop to be being a squad player only.
Lambert needs game time.
Borino ditto.
Johnson goodbye.
Allen ditto.
Henderson has to be more consistent.
Sterling flutters and flatters with little end result.
new boys will be judged on a game by game basis.
Rogers has to sign a proven top class striker in January window, his future depends on it.


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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #55 on: November 3, 2014, 04:01:12 am »
Top Tip

Before I read a comment, I quickly scan to see if the poster has spelled our managers name incorrectly. I then dispense with  all of those who call him "Rogers", thereby saving myself the bother of reading an awful lot of shite. 

I thoroughly recommend it to other members.  ;)

Offline Smithy_88

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #56 on: November 3, 2014, 08:16:20 am »
I personally don't understand why Rodgers is sticking to one up front.

Thought 2nd half vs Hull we looked good with a 2nd striker.

Been saying balo as a one up front doesn't work for quite a while and I'm not sure from our recent displays why he keeps sticking to it.

Obviously he knows alot more than me as being the manager and coach but I wish i knew why, as it isn't working.

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #57 on: November 3, 2014, 12:55:43 pm »
Top Tip

Before I read a comment, I quickly scan to see if the poster has spelled our managers name incorrectly. I then dispense with  all of those who call him "Rogers", thereby saving myself the bother of reading an awful lot of shite.

hmmm, I think nit picking sums up this self appointed proof reader. 

I thoroughly recommend it to other members.  ;)

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #58 on: November 3, 2014, 01:37:47 pm »
I then dispense with  all of those who call him "Rogers", thereby saving myself the bother of reading an awful lot of shite.


Don't forget the "Llori" type posts!

Regarding the failure to even build an attack, I don't know if it's by intent or inability but we consistently fail to get the ball to Coutinho or Sterling. Instead it constantly circulates around the centre backs and Gerrard, then Johnson and Allen to an extent. I put that down to three things.

1. Our CBs cannot pick out passes into the centre. Lovren has been trying but ultimately has failed to provide such incision (quite frustrating if I say so myself). Sakho is out but Kolo with all his faults does have this going for him.

2. Gerrard by his own admission has been targeted. I'm sure last year teams also tried marking him tightly but the options he had were greater and the required precision of the pass was lesser due to the threat and mobility up front. Why not try something different at the base of midfield, Can for his driving ability, Lucas for added protection, Allen for his turning and mobility?

3. Sterling staying out wide. There is no doubt Sterling can do a job out wide. However, nothing was going right for us against Newcastle and we also had Coutinho (and to a lesser extent Hendo on the left) on the pitch yet we did not even try letting them switch around during the game. What happened to the fluidity and versatility from last season? Not all of it was sold to Barcelona or is currently injured, why not try to use them in-game? In addition, our inability to build play down the flanks and Gerrard getting limited time on the ball, it's not that hard for opposition fullbacks to mark Sterling out of the game.

These are the things that stand out for me besides the usual formation/selection problems (lone stiker/Balo/Johnson/Gerrard) which I mostly agree with. Let it be said though that with the exclusion of Johnson, I don't think it's the players' performance under question, rather than the complete inability to get on the same wavelength as each other and Balo's utter lack of service and support. Granted he's missed a few, but keep feeding him chances and he'll improve his rate. The improvement should be the number of chances created which was probably zero from open play this week.
« Last Edit: November 3, 2014, 01:43:32 pm by plskikme »

Offline GregCharrua

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #59 on: November 3, 2014, 03:19:02 pm »
3. Sterling staying out wide. There is no doubt Sterling can do a job out wide. However, nothing was going right for us against Newcastle and we also had Coutinho (and to a lesser extent Hendo on the left) on the pitch yet we did not even try letting them switch around during the game. What happened to the fluidity and versatility from last season? Not all of it was sold to Barcelona or is currently injured, why not try to use them in-game? In addition, our inability to build play down the flanks and Gerrard getting limited time on the ball, it's not that hard for opposition fullbacks to mark Sterling out of the game.

The past few games, besides looking knackered, Sterling has been trying too many take ons. Sometimes it isn't on when there's three or four defenders boxing you in. I understand that he is with instructions to make a go at it, but I felt sometimes he was just trying to do way way too much.

How much of that is Sterling over-reaching his abilities and how much is our over reliance on him to create something in a side that can't stop passing back and forth between the centrebacks, I don't know.

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #60 on: November 3, 2014, 08:26:21 pm »
Newcastle are a team we should be beating, they are a team we should be able to create chance against, they are a team that has alan Pardew at the helm - not one you'd ever associate with tactical brilliance or innovation. Yet Liverpool lumbered up to St James Park with a display that was doomed to failure from the start, and was compounded by any sort of adaptation mid-game (something Pardew managed after around 5 minutes.)

We set up with a pretty standard 4231 as we have for most games this season, the slight twice was what we saw v's Swansea, a flat back 3 when in possession, but instead of Johnson on the left as the slotting in fullback come center back he was doing it on the right, and a pretty standard 4321 in defence. Sadly the innovation stops there, it was a poor tactical choice - for a number of reasons.

1) It meant our best attacking outlet (Sterling) was left completely isolated out on the right - Johnson hardly got forward and neither did any of our midfielders move across to create any overloads or overlaps. Sterling was completely ineffective and the most touches he got was trying to outjump their fullback time and time again when we lumped the ball forward to him. Sterling has some interesting statistics;



Yet we stuck him out on the right and wondered why we had no threat from the front 3.

2) We spent the majority of the game passing it between the 2 center backs, Johnson and then Gerrard.. We'd do this for around 30 seconds, go nowhere and jump it forward, any ball that went forward to Allen/Coutinho/Henderson was simply returned to sender, we didn't play any triangles, we didn't pass and move, we played static, slow and predictable football. I believe the plan was to have Allen and Gerrard collect the ball from the back, move forward and find Henderson and Coutinho playing in-between the lines ahead.. Sadly Pardew quickly got this was our plan and instructed his team to drop off, press only in their half and let us have the ball at the back.. It worked, we looked devoid of ideas and ended playing Pullis esk hoof ball to one of our shortest players (Sterling) and Balotelli who wants the ball into his feet.

3) 1 up front, it's near maddening to see the same formation week in week out when it is obviously not working - any joy we've had this season has come when we've played 2 up front, yet we persist with Balotelli (who has NEVER been a lone target man) on his own with not a single team mate within 15 yards of him for the majority of the game. It's tactical stupidity, irrespective if he is the right or wrong transfer buy, work with what you have not what you wish you had. I feel sorry for Mario, yes he's missed some easy chances, but on the whole he's being expected to change his entire game for no other reason bar stubborness by the manager.

The sad thing about watching Liverpool now is how far we have fallen and knowing there is the possibility until some pride is swallowed and some hard decisions are made we haven't finished our decent into mediocrity.

I'm hugely disappointed that Rodgers has gone back on what he said in his early days - players will play based on merit, if a player is out they must earn their place back and basically wait for the chance to do so.. Yet Johnson, a player whose last decent game was over 3 years ago, a player who is NOT being offered a contract, waltzes (sorry strolls) back into a starting position, compared with the player he's displaced - Manquillo - arguably our player of the season so far, a young lad who played around 3 first team games last season, doesn't speak our language, in a new league, yet looks a freaking excellent defender who puts it all on the line multiple times throughout a game.. If I were him I'd be livid Johnson is starting over me - especially when Rodgers bleets to the press how you have to earn your place, what he says and does are two very different things it seems.  Similar to Skrtel who is a complete liability of a defender and such the opposite of what we require at the back, yet he displaces Toure who had an excellent game v's Swansea - he was fearless on the ball, he commanded the backline and played front foot football on the ball and without. If I were a player looking to join our club I would now have doubts - there are players who are above the "rules" said imposed by the manager himself. It's the most frustrating things about Rodgers - this reliance on players you know and can see with your own eyes as not being the standard we require.

Defensively we lack a leader - we needed to have played Toure, Lovren was a bag of jittery nerves and tries to impress to hard he takes daft risks when 1 v 1. Moreno was unlucky for the goal, but really was left horribly exposed by Lovren trying to be action man and gambling on a ball - you want your defenders to play it simple, 1 man each, cut out the passing lanes and be solid and dependable - we need to play as a team not as a collective of 4 strangers.. It's not helping our confidence shot goalkeeper who looks like he doesn't know if he's coming or going at times.

Rodgers I hope has a long and hard look at himself after Newcastle, he seems to be in this stubborn rutt of wanting to prove this 4231 tactics will come good - Albert Einstein once said "Madness is trying the same thing over and over expecting different results" I feel that every time I watch us lineup and throughout the game itself. Where has this confident, innovative young manager? The guy that thought fuck convention I'll play 442 with 2 strikers and attack teams of the park? The guy who yanked Suso after 30 minutes, changed the game and got the result? I've yet to see any sort of tactical switch ingame, we replace like for like with substitutes for the most part, and set up the same most matches.

The less said of his love struck teenager's obsession with the 70's heart throb pop star relationship with Gerrard the better. He needs to make a hard decision and tell Gerrard he won't be starting every game, Gerrard has a lot to offer, but playing him every single minute is killing the team.  The very fact Gerrard came out with that article in the press questioning certain aspects of the club is like a slap in the face, he should lead by example, not mouth off to the press when we need inspiration.. The tone of the game was set in the first 3 minutes when he bottled a 50/50, he looks like a man unhappy with the world - if that's the case give him some time off, bring him on with 15 minutes to go and a point to prove.. Learn to manage a legend, or become a myth yourself..

Offline gjr1

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #61 on: November 4, 2014, 02:38:28 am »
^
That's a great post.
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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #62 on: November 4, 2014, 02:48:53 am »
BR used the same basic formation vs NUFC as the one he used vs SCAFC:

GK, 2 CBs and a fullback deployed as a CB
2 withdrawn CMs plus a wingback
3 advanced midfielders (2 wide ones, of which one only stayed wide, and a central one)
1 Striker/center-forward

As strange as it looks: 1-3-3-3-1

Vs SCAFC we had Jones, Toure and Lovren as the CBs and Johnson as the FB being used as CB, but as a LCB. We know, from having seen Johnson deployed as a LB, that he actually plays a more 'reserved'/methodical game when deployed on the left, with fewer and more 'mature' forays forward than when he plays on the right.

Vs NUFC, we had Skrtel and Lovren as the CBs and Johnson again being used as a CB but this time as RCB. In my judgment, that was a cardinal error. Johnson was not disciplined and as the game progressed he played more and more as a RB than a RCB, and, unfortunately, did so in his own inimitable ways of late, amounting to becoming a defensive liability (losing possession while high up the pitch, etc).

In the first 'line' ahead of the back line, we had Gerrard and Allen being deployed as the CMs, with Moreno as the designated WB, on the left. Vs SCAFC, it was Lucas and Henderson in CM with Manquillo as the designated WB, on the right. Neither Lucas nor Henderson found themselves 'on the toes' of the CBs (much) vs SCAFC. The same cannot be said about Allen and Gerrard. Notwithstanding Gerrard's great passing abilities, and despite some forays up the pitch in the 1st half (most of which went undetected and not taken advantage of, especially by the, unfortunately, hapless Johnson), I am not quite sure what the point of having Gerrard standing 4-5 yards away from Skrtel and Lovren is. You cannot possibly make an opposition player's job easier through your spacing than by doing just that. Allen, for me, had one of his least impressive games for us vs NUFC, although, in all fairness, he wasn't helped by the setup, the movement of players 'ahead' of him, and what they did upon receiving passes from him (Henderson, especially).

Further up the pitch we had Borini Coutinho and Markovic vs SCAFC. Vs NUFC it was Sterling, Henderson and Coutinho. Sterling was the one who stayed wide, while Henderson and Coutinho interchanges and were mostly centrali-ish (perhaps to allow Moreno some 'space' to operate). I do not think that worked out well, AT ALL. Henderson had a mediocre performance; I think one can legitimately conclude we got NOTHING positive out of him being deployed further forward, whether in attack or 'defensively'. All of his relative weakness came out, and none of his relative strengths were on display.

Why Sterling was not more effective, or more effectively used, I am not 100% sure of. Despite being well-rested, he seemed a bit jaded. He certainly tried to make an impact and was industrious.

Up top, Balotelli was neither (much) better nor worse than Lambert was vs SCAFC.

Why Lallana neither started nor was brought on as a substitute (as he was vs SCAFC and to good effect) is a mystery to me.

Good post mate. Appreciate it.

Couple of points:

* I think Balo actually looked kind of threatening on the ball - certainly more so than Sterling or Henderson ever did - it's just he was on the ball in the wrong parts of the pitch :(

* No mention of Coutinho? Was better than Henderson and Sterling, but poor by his previous weeks' standards unfortunately.

Gerrard's continual long balls / giving away possession really annoyed me. Probably because as you say it completely counteracted the possession game we were probably trying to play.
« Last Edit: November 4, 2014, 03:46:50 am by kcbworth »

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #63 on: November 4, 2014, 03:53:03 am »
Good post, Draex.

Kcbworth: I can't believe I neglected to mention Coutinho. D'oh!
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Offline plskikme

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #64 on: November 4, 2014, 06:10:20 am »


Really eloquently put together. I fully agree as seen by my earlier post. In short, we need players carrying the ball forward rather than hitting it long or passing it back. This in turn brings Coutinho, Sterling and Mario into the game in positions they can punish the opposition. That's why Toure, Can, Lallana (and Manquillo for different reasons) should be given a go now, it can't be any worse anyway. I also hope Sakho is back soon and is played as his passing is miles better than Lovren.

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #65 on: November 4, 2014, 06:42:19 am »
1) It meant our best attacking outlet (Sterling) was left completely isolated out on the right - Johnson hardly got forward and neither did any of our midfielders move across to create any overloads or overlaps. Sterling was completely ineffective and the most touches he got was trying to outjump their fullback time and time again when we lumped the ball forward to him. Sterling has some interesting statistics;



Yet we stuck him out on the right and wondered why we had no threat from the front 3.

2) We spent the majority of the game passing it between the 2 center backs, Johnson and then Gerrard.. We'd do this for around 30 seconds, go nowhere and jump it forward, any ball that went forward to Allen/Coutinho/Henderson was simply returned to sender, we didn't play any triangles, we didn't pass and move, we played static, slow and predictable football. I believe the plan was to have Allen and Gerrard collect the ball from the back, move forward and find Henderson and Coutinho playing in-between the lines ahead.. Sadly Pardew quickly got this was our plan and instructed his team to drop off, press only in their half and let us have the ball at the back.. It worked, we looked devoid of ideas and ended playing Pullis esk hoof ball to one of our shortest players (Sterling) and Balotelli who wants the ball into his feet.

3) 1 up front, it's near maddening to see the same formation week in week out when it is obviously not working - any joy we've had this season has come when we've played 2 up front, yet we persist with Balotelli (who has NEVER been a lone target man) on his own with not a single team mate within 15 yards of him for the majority of the game. It's tactical stupidity, irrespective if he is the right or wrong transfer buy, work with what you have not what you wish you had. I feel sorry for Mario, yes he's missed some easy chances, but on the whole he's being expected to change his entire game for no other reason bar stubborness by the manager.

The sad thing about watching Liverpool now is how far we have fallen and knowing there is the possibility until some pride is swallowed and some hard decisions are made we haven't finished our decent into mediocrity.

I'm hugely disappointed that Rodgers has gone back on what he said in his early days - players will play based on merit, if a player is out they must earn their place back and basically wait for the chance to do so.. Yet Johnson, a player whose last decent game was over 3 years ago, a player who is NOT being offered a contract, waltzes (sorry strolls) back into a starting position, compared with the player he's displaced - Manquillo - arguably our player of the season so far, a young lad who played around 3 first team games last season, doesn't speak our language, in a new league, yet looks a freaking excellent defender who puts it all on the line multiple times throughout a game.. If I were him I'd be livid Johnson is starting over me - especially when Rodgers bleets to the press how you have to earn your place, what he says and does are two very different things it seems.  Similar to Skrtel who is a complete liability of a defender and such the opposite of what we require at the back, yet he displaces Toure who had an excellent game v's Swansea - he was fearless on the ball, he commanded the backline and played front foot football on the ball and without. If I were a player looking to join our club I would now have doubts - there are players who are above the "rules" said imposed by the manager himself. It's the most frustrating things about Rodgers - this reliance on players you know and can see with your own eyes as not being the standard we require.

Rodgers I hope has a long and hard look at himself after Newcastle, he seems to be in this stubborn rutt of wanting to prove this 4231 tactics will come good - Albert Einstein once said "Madness is trying the same thing over and over expecting different results" I feel that every time I watch us lineup and throughout the game itself. Where has this confident, innovative young manager? The guy that thought fuck convention I'll play 442 with 2 strikers and attack teams of the park? The guy who yanked Suso after 30 minutes, changed the game and got the result? I've yet to see any sort of tactical switch ingame, we replace like for like with substitutes for the most part, and set up the same most matches.

The less said of his love struck teenager's obsession with the 70's heart throb pop star relationship with Gerrard the better. He needs to make a hard decision and tell Gerrard he won't be starting every game, Gerrard has a lot to offer, but playing him every single minute is killing the team.  The very fact Gerrard came out with that article in the press questioning certain aspects of the club is like a slap in the face, he should lead by example, not mouth off to the press when we need inspiration.. The tone of the game was set in the first 3 minutes when he bottled a 50/50, he looks like a man unhappy with the world - if that's the case give him some time off, bring him on with 15 minutes to go and a point to prove.. Learn to manage a legend, or become a myth yourself..

Great post. Agree with everything. Others on here have been saying we were 'tactically broken' against Newcastle. It seems actually that Rodgers actually broke the tactics last season. By that I mean, we abandoned our short passing and went all in on playing  direct to our devastating strike partnership. It was of course a good decision then and allowed us to maximise what we had and nearly won us a title, but I wonder now if a year of that has left us clueless with how to play without those strikers. Brendan seems to be trying to go back to his basics, but the players have forgotten how, and look like they're waiting around for SAS to bail them out.

One thing that Suarez and Sturridge's goals did paper over last season was that we don't score enough from midfield (and don't point at Gerrard - I obviously mean from open play). Coutinho and Henderson had great seasons, but only chipped in with the odd goal. For me, the whole reason why two strikers is effective for us is because even at our best we don't have enough midfielders who'll break the line and run beyond a lone striker.

Like many have started to say, I honestly feel sorry for Balotelli. Not that's he's  played like some misunderstood genius either, but those blaming him are missing the point.  It was clear against Newcastle that he actually is trying at the moment, but he was just a complete square peg in a round hole. He's always played a certain way in his career, we stupidly bought him without recognising that, and now we expect him to be something he isn't.  If he can't have a mobile strike partner, then he absolutely must have multiple  midfielders running beyond him. At the moment, he's got neither.

Which leads me to what I'd suggest until Sturridge come back. There are those that won't like it, but I say we try Sterling up front. Rodgers seems to be dead against it, but for me it helps several issues. For one, playing as a striker, Sterling will provide pace and not allow defenders to relax. His pressing is good and he can defend from the front.

Secondly, he'll make runs behind defences that we're so clearly lacking. Of course he doesn't have the same natural striker's instinct that someone like sturridge has, but his goal v Soton on opening day and the winner v QPR are evidence that he is capable of timing his runs very well. Having a very quick and mobile target up front to aim at will be a game-changer for Coutinho too, who up to now, has been suffocating in a statuesque attack, constantly trying to force passes that aren't on.

In the same way that it would help Coutinho, it would surely help Gerrard. I totally agree with most on here that the captain should be rotated, not just because of his age or form, but because we're unbelievably predictable and slow trying to play a short passing game that doesn't come easily to him. But if Rodgers really absolutely must play Gerrard in every game (and let's face it, I don't see him changing that stance any time soon), then set things up to allow him to play like last season. Sterling up top will surely give Gerrard a runner to look for, and allow his long passing to hurt teams like it did last season.

Against Newcastle, we had Lallana sitting on the bench the whole match. Why? We played appalling football and were behind for the last 20 mins. Why not at least try Sterling up front and then you have another quality player who can come in and play at the tip of a midfield diamond. Instead, we just persist with leaving £25m worth on the bench and marginalising our most exciting player on the wing as we whack high balls to him when he's tiny and marked.

As I said, there are of course going to be people who don't like this idea and I can understand why - perhaps it's messing with the player's development, not to mention a risk for the team with a player playing a position he's not used to.
Perhaps I'm oversimplifying it, but I just feel we need to try something to lift us out of this mega funk that we're in. Last season, the diamond 4-4-2 looked a strange move at first, but it was a stroke of brilliance from the coach to play to our strengths. Right now, with one phenomenal striker gone, and the other seemingly endlessly injured, our strengths are vastly diminished, but we should still be playing to them.
« Last Edit: November 4, 2014, 07:05:07 am by decosabute »

Offline itsgunnabebarnes!

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Re: Done by Pardew [Newcastle 1 - 0 Liverpool round table]
« Reply #66 on: November 4, 2014, 06:49:50 am »
Pace, movement and top quality strikers. Things that we excelled at last season. These covered our average midfield and leaky defence. With it gone it highlights how average our midfield is and how our defence cannot be relied upon.

Options??? Not sure but recycling the same dross like Rafa did and Kenny did in their final stages is not the answer.

For some lucky reason everyone else has fucked up for fourth. I cannot see us getting it with the players and system we are putting out, it needs changing.

What happens when Sturridge comes back?? He ain't going to solve it all. He may have make no difference. Rodgers is not getting enough from his midfield. Personnel need changing.

 
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