Topic: RAWK Round Table LFC 5-1 AFC

[Timbo's Goals]

and then saw Ireland put the Welsh to the sword a couple of hours later.  ...I found my bar stool in time for kick off....Could not be a better day really.

Oh I don't know.

You might have fallen off your fuckin bar stool and broke your fuckin neck. Now that would have been a really good day. Smug twat.

 

[Twelfth Man]

Yeah. An exceptional post. What impressed me the most was JL's determination to understand and make sense of what has been taking place in front of all our eyes. Very impressive indeed....

...If only he'd have applied a corresponding diligence and insight in his efforts to grasp the mysteries of Lost we'd all have been in a far more serene place. but alas he simply gave up the ghost. Literally.

 
 

" Whether it's through passing them to death, or gorilla-fucking them into a level of masochistic subspace only found in Moyes' house when he decides to open the trophy cabinet. " lulz. .

[Timbo's Goals]

" Whether it's through passing them to death, or gorilla-fucking them into a level of masochistic subspace only found in Moyes' house when he decides to open the trophy cabinet. " lulz. .

 

[royhendo]

Juan Loco's post was phenomenal indeed. What's interesting is that outside the structure, the fundamental 'turnover point' still stands - the one based on the Van Gaal/Mourinho methodology. Win the ball. Is it on? If so, go direct and fast. Is it not? Rest on the ball.

There are two aspects to that - the ability to make the decision well (the one Coutinho needs time to master), and the quality that makes the answer 'Yes' more often than not. When you've got Suarez, Sturridge, and an in-form Sterling ahead of you, the answer is, more often, 'Yes'. So naturally we appear to be more direct.

Brilliant stuff.

[No666]

And of course the quality ahead of the midfield is not the only factor in making the answer 'yes.' Coutinho's own quality makes the answer 'yes' where others (perhaps including some of our own players in that same role) would for a percentage of the time at least, be 'no.'

[Timbo's Goals]

Juan Loco's post was phenomenal indeed. What's interesting is that outside the structure, the fundamental 'turnover point' still stands - the one based on the Van Gaal/Mourinho methodology. Win the ball. Is it on? If so, go direct and fast. Is it not? Rest on the ball.

There are two aspects to that - the ability to make the decision well (the one Coutinho needs time to master), and the quality that makes the answer 'Yes' more often than not. When you've got Suarez, Sturridge, and an in-form Sterling ahead of you, the answer is, more often, 'Yes'. So naturally we appear to be more direct.

Brilliant stuff.

I don't study these things Roy but at the time I used to bracket the Cloughie Notts Forest of late 70's [Woodcock/Robertson/O'Hare/Birtles] as 'sit back and pounce'. That, at least, is how they used to play against us. We'd have 90% possession... and they'd often win. Would you say Clough was effecting a similar concept, albeit very little of the 'rest on the ball' against McDermott/Case/Souness/Kennedy? perhaps more of a mid 60's Internazionale?

[Hank Scorpio]

Great stuff, Juan.

[Niru Red4ever]

Did everyone see hendo organising a corner,lining up and telling flano where to go. He's defo come out of his shell.

Hendo loves organising, including goal celebration pileups.

[exiledinyorkshire]

Juan Loco's post was phenomenal indeed. What's interesting is that outside the structure, the fundamental 'turnover point' still stands - the one based on the Van Gaal/Mourinho methodology. Win the ball. Is it on? If so, go direct and fast. Is it not? Rest on the ball.

There are two aspects to that - the ability to make the decision well (the one Coutinho needs time to master), and the quality that makes the answer 'Yes' more often than not. When you've got Suarez, Sturridge, and an in-form Sterling ahead of you, the answer is, more often, 'Yes'. So naturally we appear to be more direct.

Brilliant stuff.

Very well said.

And it was a great post too.

[exiledinyorkshire]

I don't study these things Roy but at the time I used to bracket the Cloughie Notts Forest of late 70's [Woodcock/Robertson/O'Hare/Birtles] as 'sit back and pounce'. That, at least, is how they used to play against us. We'd have 90% possession... and they'd often win. Would you say Clough was effecting a similar concept, albeit very little of the 'rest on the ball' against McDermott/Case/Souness/Kennedy? perhaps more of a mid 60's Internazionale?

the ability to do either is level 4 football.

Few teams ever achieve it.

Signs are looking good for us in as much as Rodgers is a clear possession freak we know him to be. Its how he wants to play. That part of the puzzle is the really brave part to achieve, that takes the courage, to be able to keep the ball. Rodgers isn't scared of it.

And as the icing on the cake in that philosophy is a pure fucking Ferrari of a counter attacking side as well. Its the ability to mix and match that makes a truly great side.

Most counter attacking side very rarely get to level four, because the counter attack is used in a negative way. We seem to be using it if its the correct thing to do. and that must bode well for us.

We have a straight up park the bus number tonight, and one that's playing at home. Similar game to the westbrom one in most ways and we simply must do better.

All the threads are coming together though, and we are glimpsing often now what the future may look like. And I like it. The pressing wasn't working last year or wasn't being used. And this year its devastating at times. If it gets us an early goal then we becoming a classic counter attacking side. I love it.

[exiledinyorkshire]

also, the three really surprising performances this year have been where we have mixed it during the game, this seems to suggest players learning the kind of game management that you hear so much about.

A classic counter smash and grab, was Man utd at home. It was dicey bum squeaky but we held out. Early goal and hold on.

Spurs, Everton, and Arsenal were a near perfect combination of sit back press sit back press. And all three of them didn't know weather to shit or bust. If they came onto us they were in trouble, if they tried to keep the ball they were in trouble.

I would love the chance to play City and Chelsea away again, now we seem to be more confident with the in game management. I get the feeling we just lacked a bit of belief in those two games(and a bit of luck).

The three stand out performances this year have all been against very good opposition and who have been beaten comprehensively. And that's forgetting the quality we have shown against the dross at home. The mentality just needs to ignore away games now to take possessive control at places like Westbrom and Fulham and make it count. And once again that's a big step forward. Even Chelsea and City are struggling with that.

its all very good though.

[Timbo's Goals]

Thanks for those posts E in Yks.

Good stuff.

So which teams are renowned as having attained the mix 'n' match Level 4? I assume it includes a few of our own great sides?

[PaulF]

Apologies that I haven't had time to read through pages 2-6 yet, but I will, and I'll love every minute of it. I want to set aside the time to savour and enjoy the posts...

However, for those that saw the whole match..

1) did everything fall right for us in the first half and wrong for Arsenal?  The foul for the first free kick could easily have not been given.  Skrtel's second was so good you'd only expect him to get his head to that one in five times, never mind finding the corner OVER the guy on the post.

2) What can we expect from the cup game, will Arsenal be forced to sit back and try to hit us on the break?

3) If the first half did see the best of us and the worst of Arsenal, was the second half a fair reflection on how the teams have performed this season. Are we about on a par with them (and league points suggest we are).

[exiledinyorkshire]

Thanks for those posts E in Yks.

Good stuff.

So which teams are renowned as having attained the mix 'n' match Level 4? I assume it includes a few of our own great sides?

yeah I would say so. I'm no great historian when it comes to teams from yesteryear, only just discovering the likes of Milan and Ajax ect.

I suppose the one that springs to mind of an almost perfect blend recently and domestically is UTD.

Barcelona are the pin up boys. If nothing else sky in the last 10 years has at least enabled me to see other ways of playing football. Bayern last couple of seasons were pretty strong in any given situation.

Rafas 2008/9 side was as close as we have come in recent years. Built from the back. Brendans building from the front, and I prefer it.

I take no credit for the level four thing, that's a Royendo thread from a few years back now. it was an excellent thread and Its what actually got me into coaching kids football and reading the excellent literature that's about these days on the subject of football.

That thread made this forum great in my opinion, and the writing on here and knowledge is second to none. I view football in a totally different way these days. All thanks to the level 4 thread, and the subsequent education I have found from numerous posters on this forum. I'm still far too thick to understand it all, but I look for different things these days.

[Yorkykopite]

Just want to join in the applause for Juan Loco's post. A brilliant piece of 'investigative work' as well as a really nicely written piece.

[exiledinyorkshire]

Apologies that I haven't had time to read through pages 2-6 yet, but I will, and I'll love every minute of it. I want to set aside the time to savour and enjoy the posts...

However, for those that saw the whole match..

1) did everything fall right for us in the first half and wrong for Arsenal?  The foul for the first free kick could easily have not been given.  Skrtel's second was so good you'd only expect him to get his head to that one in five times, never mind finding the corner OVER the guy on the post.

2) What can we expect from the cup game, will Arsenal be forced to sit back and try to hit us on the break?

3) If the first half did see the best of us and the worst of Arsenal, was the second half a fair reflection on how the teams have performed this season. Are we about on a par with them (and league points suggest we are).

not everything fell right for us, if it had it would have been a cricket score. First minute goals often can go either way. Here it led to an Arsenal collapse, at Chelsea it brought them to a level they hadn't really played at before. But as silly as it sounds, that first 20 mins should have been better in terms of goals for us.

They wont know what the fuck to do in the cup game.

we were on it first half, and they were still asleep. Second half was a non event. Realistically we should have won the second half 2 or 3-1 as well. we took our foot off. Although we excellently repeated the first half pattern with an early goal suggesting that we  were toying with them in the second half.

[Timbo's Goals]

Rafas 2008/9 side was as close as we have come in recent years. Built from the back. Brendans building from the front, and I prefer it.

I take no credit for the level four thing, that's a Royendo thread from a few years back now. it was an excellent thread and Its what actually got me into coaching kids football and reading the excellent literature that's about these days on the subject of football.

That thread made this forum great in my opinion, and the writing on here and knowledge is second to none. I view football in a totally different way these days. All thanks to the level 4 thread, and the subsequent education I have found from numerous posters on this forum. I'm still far too thick to understand it all, but I look for different things these days.

Again great credit to Royhendo and those on that thread for inspiring folks like yourself. Now that you've mentioned it I do seem to recall the thread you refer to. It was the year Machedo [against Villa] and Howard webb [against Spurs] sneaked/stole the league for United wasn't it ?And then in the close season we lost Xabi and things began to unravel under Hicks and Gillett so that all the expectations fell flat?

Well, looks as if after 5 years we're approaching the same sort of level.

 

[exiledinyorkshire]

and as if to prove how thick I am it was level 3 thread.

I think Roy set up a website called level 3 football, nowt been updated on it for a wee while though. IIRC he started the thread while reading "team building".

I'm obviously a bit hazey on the details like I say, but it was so so good a thread.

[PaulF]

It'd never make it to level four. It'd be the UEFA B licence thread

[sattapaartridge]

I hate Juan Loco. What a post.

[John C]

You need to put quality time aside to enjoys Juan's post, so I recommend you all do it it you haven't already.

Great stuff mate.

[BabuYagu]

Half the teams in europe play pressing now, Barca started it and it's hardly a german thing. In terms of getting into scoring positions early that's not only happening in a counter attacking sense here, it does, but far from being our overall style of play. Dortmund plays like that only, without any Plan B,we, in contrast, are able to vary our game in a lot of ways, are able to play far mature and are growing as a complete football team. To me it looks more Brasilian or LFC twenty years ago, but Dortmund? Nah, they are far too one dimensional which is the reason why they fell back this season.

I believe Dynamo Kiev started it, no?

EDIT:- And that is a phenomenal post by Juan Loco. Will have another proper read of that later when the kid is asleep and my brain can process information

[Mr Dilkington]

Sensational stuff, Juan.

I think you're absolutely right to differentiate between counter attacking football and being amazingly effective on transitions. Dortmund are so often labelled as a counter attacking team, which I think sells them short. They press with unbelievable intensity in midfield and try to force teams into losing the ball in their own half. My understanding of counter attacking is allowing teams to get to your 18 yard box, and then when the move breaks down, quickly move up the pitch whilst their players are out of position. Dortmund do this well too of course, but primarily they're looking to force the oppositions midfield into a mistake and then exposing them from there. That's why what Guardiola did against them was so simple and yet utterly brilliant. He played Javi Martinez as a number 10, when he's just about anything other than a traditional number 10. But what he did was give Bender and Sahin something to think about. They bypassed the Dortmund midfield and played long balls into Mandzukic, which in turn brought Martinez into the game. They did that for the first half, and then in the second half they brought on the likes of Gotze and Thiago to change things up.

The Real Madrid semi final is a classic example of that. Dortmund didn't kill Madrid on the counter that day, they killed them on transitions, and were fortunate to have a World class number 9 who wasn't missing. What we're trying to do at the moment is very similar to what Dortmund and also Bayern have done so well in the last few years. It's combining pressing, with physicality, as well as skill and flair. Added to that doing it at great pace and you have a potent formula. What Dortmund and Bayern have that we don't (amongst other things!) is a midfield that's happy to play the ball around and keep possession for prolonged periods of time. So we're doing things that Bayern and Dortmund are, but we're doing it with 10% less possession. That's fine, but you've got to think that's the next step in our development. But then the likes of Kroos, Thiago, Gotze, Gundogan, and Sahin don't grow on trees.

I think the whole picture will change when we get a full back who's comfortable on the ball and gives the opposition something to worry about going forward. Roy mentioned it on Twatter the other week, and he's completely right. I'd argue Dani Alves was Guardiola's best and most important signing. The irony being that we might well end up with the kid Barca have earmarked as Alves' successor. 

[PaulF]

Sensational stuff, Juan.

I think you're absolutely right to differentiate between counter attacking football and being amazingly effective on transitions. Dortmund are so often labelled as a counter attacking team, which I think sells them short. They press with unbelievable intensity in midfield and try to force teams into losing the ball in their own half. My understanding of counter attacking is allowing teams to get to your 18 yard box, and then when the move breaks down, quickly move up the pitch whilst their players are out of position. Dortmund do this well too of course, but primarily they're looking to force the oppositions midfield into a mistake and then exposing them from there. That's why what Guardiola did against them was so simple and yet utterly brilliant. He played Javi Martinez as a number 10, when he's just about anything other than a traditional number 10. But what he did was give Bender and Sahin something to think about. They bypassed the Dortmund midfield and played long balls into Mandzukic, which in turn brought Martinez into the game. They did that for the first half, and then in the second half they brought on the likes of Gotze and Thiago to change things up.

The Real Madrid semi final is a classic example of that. Dortmund didn't kill Madrid on the counter that day, they killed them on transitions, and were fortunate to have a World class number 9 who wasn't missing. What we're trying to do at the moment is very similar to what Dortmund and also Bayern have done so well in the last few years. It's combining pressing, with physicality, as well as skill and flair. Added to that doing it at great pace and you have a potent formula. What Dortmund and Bayern have that we don't (amongst other things!) is a midfield that's happy to play the ball around and keep possession for prolonged periods of time. So we're doing things that Bayern and Dortmund are, but we're doing it with 10% less possession. That's fine, but you've got to think that's the next step in our development. But then the likes of Kroos, Thiago, Gotze, Gundogan, and Sahin don't grow on trees.

I think the whole picture will change when we get a full back who's comfortable on the ball and gives the opposition something to worry about going forward. Roy mentioned it on Twatter the other week, and he's completely right. I'd argue Dani Alves was Guardiola's best and most important signing. The irony being that we might well end up with the kid Barca have earmarked as Alves' successor. 

Let's hope, this week, we're still capable of Dortmund esque football