Topic: Shogun (TV Mini Series 2024)

[FlashingBlade]

Didn't read this thread till I finished the series...and haven't read the books either...so was somewhat surprised at the reaction to Blackthorn?....thought he was great personally...an effective oafish, impulsive and reckless counterpart to the ritualistic, ceremonial and deeply held stoic values of the Japanese culture he landed in.....a key character and excellently portrayed by Cosmo Jarvis...thoroughly enjoyed his very apparent influences - Oliver Reed, Hopkins, Richard Harris et al - a suitably old fashioned performance in what was a pleasingly old fashioned, epic TV series ....

Said same meself....next James Bond or Dr.Who

[FlashingBlade]

I think this being relatively stuck away on Disney+ ( Star/FX) its not getting the media/audience attention it fully deserves.

[Brian Blessed]

Didn't read this thread till I finished the series...and haven't read the books either...so was somewhat surprised at the reaction to Blackthorn?....thought he was great personally...an effective oafish, impulsive and reckless counterpart to the ritualistic, ceremonial and deeply held stoic values of the Japanese culture he landed in.....a key character and excellently portrayed by Cosmo Jarvis...thoroughly enjoyed his very apparent influences - Oliver Reed, Hopkins, Richard Harris et al - a suitably old fashioned performance in what was a pleasingly old fashioned, epic TV series ....

Didn’t read it either until I watched, and I absolutely got Oliver Reed vibes from Cosmo Jones.

[kaesarsosei]

Actually I thought he was more Richard Burton, his accent was nearly identical. Although his physical appearance is more Olly Reed.

[rob1966]

Actually I thought he was more Richard Burton, his accent was nearly identical. Although his physical appearance is more Olly Reed.

I was expecting him to say "And yet, across the gulf of space, minds immeasurably superior to ours regarded this earth with envious eyes, and slowly and surely, they drew their plans against us"

[meady1981]

For what it's worth, as someone not too impressed with Jarvis initially, I actually thought he did a good job overall. But there were a lot of times when he went full blown Bo-Jo. Sort of buffoonish. Face like a smacked arse. And I don't remember thinking of him like that in the book. But i don't think it took away from the whole thing in the end.

I thought I remembered a huge end battle in the book. Maybe I've completely mis-remembered. Though I completely forgot about the main talking point in the penultimate episode so who knows. Maybe I didn't even like the book really. God knows.

[Hazell]

Top 5 series of all time for me, each episode was a masterpiece.

Big words. It's amazing that in this era of streaming and having thousands of shows at your disposal whenever you want something can captivate people so much. I never felt bored or was looking for something else to watch for a second, every single scene and character was great, amazing show.

I usually don't get that immersed in shows nowadays but Shogun got me. Someone mentioned the Bear earlier and that's the only other show that's done recently (finished that in one evening).

Toranaga though, what a magnificent bastard

[Sangria]

For what it's worth, as someone not too impressed with Jarvis initially, I actually thought he did a good job overall. But there were a lot of times when he went full blown Bo-Jo. Sort of buffoonish. Face like a smacked arse. And I don't remember thinking of him like that in the book. But i don't think it took away from the whole thing in the end.

I thought I remembered a huge end battle in the book. Maybe I've completely mis-remembered. Though I completely forgot about the main talking point in the penultimate episode so who knows. Maybe I didn't even like the book really. God knows.

The show showed more of the battle than the book did. At least the show depicts what Toranaga predicting what the battlefield will be, with the armies on scene. The main story ends before even that, with an epilogue stating that Toranaga won at Sekigahara, with the battle lasting 6 hours before Ishido's armies broke and 40k heads were taken (seriously, the above is only abridged by a few words). The main part of the post-Mariko story involves looking at Mariko's impact, before shifting to Toranaga's POV which is basically his monologue with Yabushige. Episode 10 is wholly in the style of the book's ending, suitably condensed into one episode.

What this show misses in comparison with the 80s version is much of the Christian shenanigans, and Anjin's relationships with other characters. Given the low opinion some have here of Jarvis, maybe this was for the better. What this show plays up and focuses on is the Japanese politics. Oh, and it's historically the best version of the three, being the only version critically acclaimed by the Japanese themselves.

[Sangria]

Big words. It's amazing that in this era of streaming and having thousands of shows at your disposal whenever you want something can captivate people so much. I never felt bored or was looking for something else to watch for a second, every single scene and character was great, amazing show.

I usually don't get that immersed in shows nowadays but Shogun got me. Someone mentioned the Bear earlier and that's the only other show that's done recently (finished that in one evening).

Toranaga though, what a magnificent bastard

Sawai notes that the emphasis is on bastard.

Marks and Kondo are probably the ones to be praised for the show's artistry, but Sanada was unquestionably the driver behind the show's historicity. Apparently the writing process went as follows for all Japanese dialogue.

English writers > Japanese writers > Sanada > Japanese academics > Sanada > Japanese writers > English writers

Thus all English subtitles are exactly as the writers wanted them, with the Japanese dialogue as period authentic as you'll get.

[bradders1011]

I was expecting him to say "And yet, across the gulf of space, minds immeasurably superior to ours regarded this earth with envious eyes, and slowly and surely, they drew their plans against us"

[Henry Chinaski]

I think this being relatively stuck away on Disney+ ( Star/FX) its not getting the media/audience attention it fully deserves.

This is the best slow burner I've seen in a while, perhaps since "Better Call Saul," even though the two shows have little in common.

[Zlen]

Was ok, not great.
Dragged on like hell near the end and fizzled out in the last episode.

[Draex]

Big words. It's amazing that in this era of streaming and having thousands of shows at your disposal whenever you want something can captivate people so much. I never felt bored or was looking for something else to watch for a second, every single scene and character was great, amazing show.

I usually don't get that immersed in shows nowadays but Shogun got me. Someone mentioned the Bear earlier and that's the only other show that's done recently (finished that in one evening).

Toranaga though, what a magnificent bastard

I stick by the statement, honestly there is a complete vacuum of real quality TV series these days, so much is mass produced formulaic shite, I'm sure they are getting ChatGPT to write scripts these days.

It was a rare series which kept building in quality and suspense, you know it's good because you'd happily watch another 10 episodes.

Toranaga was brilliant, I never really warmed to him, even at the end but such a layered character impossible to know his intentions, so well written and cast.

I spent days wikipediaing it all after!

[kaesarsosei]

I stick by the statement, honestly there is a complete vacuum of real quality TV series these days, so much is mass produced formulaic shite, I'm sure they are getting ChatGPT to write scripts these days.

It was a rare series which kept building in quality and suspense, you know it's good because you'd happily watch another 10 episodes.

Toranaga was brilliant, I never really warmed to him, even at the end but such a layered character impossible to know his intentions, so well written and cast.

I spent days wikipediaing it all after!

Fully agree and this why I said earlier that I can't believe this show got made in this day and age. The vast majority of TV viewers would have thrown their toys out of the pram when they didn't get to see hundreds of samurai swinging their swords at each other or Toranaga doing a voice over through every episode explaining everything. And it could not have been cheap.

Everyone involved deserves all the success. I hope its like Chernobyl which gave its showrunner a massive boost (to go on and do Last of Us) and IMO even injected a bit of life into Stellan Skarsgaard and Jared Harris's careers, deservedly.

[Schmidt]

Fully agree and this why I said earlier that I can't believe this show got made in this day and age. The vast majority of TV viewers would have thrown their toys out of the pram when they didn't get to see hundreds of samurai swinging their swords at each other or Toranaga doing a voice over through every episode explaining everything. And it could not have been cheap.

Everyone involved deserves all the success. I hope its like Chernobyl which gave its showrunner a massive boost (to go on and do Last of Us) and IMO even injected a bit of life into Stellan Skarsgaard and Jared Harris's careers, deservedly.

I'm not sure this is the case, movies/shows/games seem to be getting dumbed down but I don't think anyone is actually asking for it, and I'm not sure the dumbing down is reflected in revenues at all.

[Sangria]

Fully agree and this why I said earlier that I can't believe this show got made in this day and age. The vast majority of TV viewers would have thrown their toys out of the pram when they didn't get to see hundreds of samurai swinging their swords at each other or Toranaga doing a voice over through every episode explaining everything. And it could not have been cheap.

Everyone involved deserves all the success. I hope its like Chernobyl which gave its showrunner a massive boost (to go on and do Last of Us) and IMO even injected a bit of life into Stellan Skarsgaard and Jared Harris's careers, deservedly.

What I like is that the creators had a specific artistic vision, and they got to see it through regardless of formula. And what's equally important, the audience went along with it. There were certain things in the original novel that the series creators found problematic, and they dropped them, IMHO deservedly. There were also certain themes in the original novel that are decidedly anti-current formula, and to my surprise and appreciation, the series creators went along with them. The anti-climactic finale was excellent.

[Zlen]

Finale would have been better had they not spent all previous episodes teasing some kind of resolution to the situation and building up to it. For resolution to be effectively a 30 second ‘vision’ and carry on with your day was bit meh for me.

Not because we needed a showdown, but because it felt misleading and rushed.

[Sangria]

Finale would have been better had they not spent all previous episodes teasing some kind of resolution to the situation and building up to it. For resolution to be effectively a 30 second ‘vision’ and carry on with your day was bit meh for me.

Not because we needed a showdown, but because it felt misleading and rushed.

There was more of a showdown in the series than in the book.

[Zlen]

Is this the same place where the book ends as well?

[Sangria]

Is this the same place where the book ends as well?

The main part of the book ends with tying up the stories of Yabu, Fujiko, etc., while Toranaga is still mobilising his troops for some future campaign. Then there is a one page epilogue where it said that Toranaga won at Sekigahara and 40k heads were taken. Here's the showdown you were looking for, in full.

"That year, at dawn on the twenty-first day of the tenth month, the Month
without Gods, the main armies clashed. It was in the mountains near
Sekigahara, astride the North Road, the weather foul—fog, then sleet. By
late afternoon Toranaga had won the battle and the slaughter began. Forty
thousand heads were taken."

[RobbieRedman]

Loved it.

Meady's BoJo reference made me laugh as that what was I was thinking watching the last 2 episodes last night.