Author Topic: Naby Keita Watch  (Read 1888534 times)

Offline hesbighesred

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #4960 on: January 31, 2019, 08:07:31 am »
I spent a good couple of years telling myself that about Aquilani. Sadly, when the issue is mainly between the ears, there is little guarantee that the underlying quality will win out.
A massive difference here is that Aquilani had huge injury problems, was replacing an all time great Liverpool midfielder and fan favourite (stick your Gareth Barry, up your arse), joined a disjointed dressing room and club in a total mess off the pitch, and only really got to work (when fit) with the manager who bought him for what, 3 or 4 months?

Keita, thankfully, will be afforded the luxury of time, by a manager who can and will do everything possible to remove the burden of unreasonable pressure from his shoulders.
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Offline hesbighesred

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #4961 on: January 31, 2019, 08:10:24 am »
There’s a pretty good post on the last page pointing out that positions like that might be where he wants to receive it. In traffic knowing he has the skill to turn and break lines. Might be if the team put a little faith in him in those situations we’ll see what he can do
Exactly. It's bad positioning if, with all due respect, you're Milner and you'll be dispossessed in that situation. It's not if you can take control of the ball there - which can include quick first time passes back to the receiver, a move that Barca and City use constantly to work space in tight areas.
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Offline him_15

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #4962 on: January 31, 2019, 08:11:07 am »
He has actually improved quite a bit, move and react quicker but still physically weak and lost the ball quite easily when pressed.
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Offline Felch Aid

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #4963 on: January 31, 2019, 08:16:56 am »
There are snippets every so often of a player.

He hasn't had the luxury of a run of games and I'm fairly sure had we had City's run of easy cup games he would have played.

Physicality, speed and decision making are not quite there and I'm somewhat resigned to his first season being in transition. Klopp can't afford to carry passengers given where we are in the league.

Offline harryc

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #4964 on: January 31, 2019, 08:35:41 am »
Was starting to come alive as the game wore on shame he was subbed as Lallana didn’t really offer much.

Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #4965 on: January 31, 2019, 08:37:00 am »
Was starting to come alive as the game wore on shame he was subbed as Lallana didn’t really offer much.
You do know that Lallana came on for Shaqiri and Fabinho came on for Keita?

Lallana also created a couple of half chances and was the only player who actually got in behind Leicester in the second half.
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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #4966 on: January 31, 2019, 08:39:22 am »
Except for make the only real dangerous foray in to the box in the whole second half?

I think that's the point. More is expected from Keita than simply making one dangerous foray into the box.
He may have been disappointed to have been subsitituted, but at this level you can't expect to coast through a game and only switch gear 15 mins before you get substituted.
First half and early second half, Keita played like Wijnaldum lite. Considering the position he was playing, and his immense talent, he's just not making a case to stay on the pitch or start. Compare him to Fabinho that has taken to the league after a slow start. Keita is the greater talent, in my opinion, but he's playing within himself, and when we're playing him alongside Wijnaldum and Shaqiri, he needs to take a bit more risk with the ball.

Still time yet, but I'm not sure he's making a claim for a starting spot. I think most would be comfortable with Fabinho, Wijnaldum, and Henderson/Milner/Shaqiri, at this moment.
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Offline jepovic

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #4967 on: January 31, 2019, 08:51:52 am »
I don't think he was any worse than Gini or Shaq yesterday. It was a bit strange game, since we scored early and then played very safely until Leicester scored. In second half we needed a goal and he was more active. The pitch didn't help him one bit.

Offline Kansti

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #4968 on: January 31, 2019, 08:57:35 am »
I spent a good couple of years telling myself that about Aquilani. Sadly, when the issue is mainly between the ears, there is little guarantee that the underlying quality will win out.

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #4969 on: January 31, 2019, 09:00:26 am »
I spent a good couple of years telling myself that about Aquilani. Sadly, when the issue is mainly between the ears, there is little guarantee that the underlying quality will win out.

Can we knock these annoying nonsense Aquilani comparisons on the head please? There’s literally one thing they have in common and I’m not sure both merely being midfielders is really adequate.
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Offline royhendo

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #4970 on: January 31, 2019, 09:00:42 am »
He does give the impression of someone who's never had a real knock to his self belief in his footballing life yet. It's a bit like Inglethorpe was saying re Woodburn the other day - this spell could be the making of him because it could iron that wrinkle out. It might be another club that benefits though.
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Offline Doc Red

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #4971 on: January 31, 2019, 09:01:38 am »
I don't think he was any worse than Gini or Shaq yesterday. It was a bit strange game, since we scored early and then played very safely until Leicester scored. In second half we needed a goal and he was more active. The pitch didn't help him one bit.

Surely, we should expect our players to take risks and try to score goals even with a 1-0 lead? Why must we play safe and only shift gear after we concede? Seems a tad bit passive, and actually that sums up our midfield last night, passive.
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Offline redk84

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #4972 on: January 31, 2019, 09:04:12 am »
I was keeping an eye on Keita last night after recent spotlight on him....I actually think he started the game quite well and then drifted a bit.

Thought he came off when he was actually starting to have a bit more influence. I like that he got a bit annoyed when he saw his number on the subs board

We needed more creativity from either him or Shaq last night on the whole but I wasn't disappointed with his performance last night
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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #4973 on: January 31, 2019, 09:26:38 am »
Thought he finally worked things out and started to dominate a bit, straight after he got subbed off. Should have had a blatant pen as well but part of me thinks if he was fully on form he'd slot that away a step earlier instead of trying to get an extra touch
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Offline jepovic

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #4974 on: January 31, 2019, 09:32:17 am »
Surely, we should expect our players to take risks and try to score goals even with a 1-0 lead? Why must we play safe and only shift gear after we concede? Seems a tad bit passive, and actually that sums up our midfield last night, passive.
Sure, but the whole team was doing it, so it was clearly tactical.

Offline SMASHerano

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #4975 on: January 31, 2019, 10:31:00 am »
I watch him and remember Ox last season. He struggled in the beginning but then he flourished and became undroppable. Here's hoping he follows a similar path.

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #4976 on: January 31, 2019, 10:39:13 am »
It is obvious that Keita is not quite ready, especially if his confidence is low. It is no problem, but I think more work is needed before he can get back into the team. He should not get down about it - he just has to look at the examples of Fabinho and Ox and just work harder.

I don't have any metrics so I could be talking rubbish but I do wonder whether the midfield set up suited him yesterday? With hindsight (so no blame on Klopp) I'm not sure whether he should be playing in the same midfield as Shaqiri and Gini, it sometimes felt that none of them knew "who the playmaker" was and none could assume that responsibility. We've since quite a few times this season that Shaqiri has assumed that role and been the one to thread through balls to the front 3 but he didn't seem to take up those positions.

I think Keita would potentially look better alongside Fabinho & Gini, it would give Keita the responsibility to make the driving runs higher up the pitch but be less reliant on him positionally.
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Offline Doc Red

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #4977 on: January 31, 2019, 10:41:36 am »
Sure, but the whole team was doing it, so it was clearly tactical.

You think so? And the likes of Mane and Firmino were coming in deep, shifting gears, and looking for aggressive passes and movement.
I'm not sure we went in at half time with Klopp satisified at the speed and tempo we were playing the game.
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Offline hesbighesred

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #4978 on: January 31, 2019, 10:54:41 am »
Thought he finally worked things out and started to dominate a bit, straight after he got subbed off. Should have had a blatant pen as well but part of me thinks if he was fully on form he'd slot that away a step earlier instead of trying to get an extra touch
I don't think the extra touch was the wrong decision, though. I mean, he had the time, it was a tiny touch and it set him up really well for a much more controlled finish with lots of goal to aim at. The only reason it was the 'wrong' choice was because the defender had to foul him to disrupt his touch (and that challenge was almost certainly never going to get near the ball). If that was the 'wrong' choice it's almost like you could make an argument that every player needs to always play it/shoot as early as possible just to avoid the possibility of being fouled, which obviously isn't the case at all. He had the time, he took the touch. The main person who didn't do their job properly (or try to) was the ref.
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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #4979 on: January 31, 2019, 10:58:12 am »
There’s a pretty good post on the last page pointing out that positions like that might be where he wants to receive it. In traffic knowing he has the skill to turn and break lines. Might be if the team put a little faith in him in those situations we’ll see what he can do

I get what you're saying. It's an interesting point. The problem with that is that even if it's the case 9 times out of 10, that 1 time could result in a counter attack and goal against us.

Offline FlashGordon

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #4980 on: January 31, 2019, 11:20:15 am »
I get what you're saying. It's an interesting point. The problem with that is that even if it's the case 9 times out of 10, that 1 time could result in a counter attack and goal against us.

If you're not going to pass to him in those situations what was the point of signing him? When managers talk about being brave this is what they mean, not a blood and thunder tackle.
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Offline LallanaInPyjamas

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #4981 on: January 31, 2019, 11:21:06 am »
The pitch didn't help him one bit.

That goes for the other ten players in a red shirt. Most managed to perform better.

Sure, but the whole team was doing it, so it was clearly tactical.

“To break down a side like Leicester, you have to accelerate, to speed up in decisive areas. I don't know why, but we didn't do that."

I'll trust the manager's words over yours, to be honest.

I watch him and remember Ox last season. He struggled in the beginning but then he flourished and became undroppable. Here's hoping he follows a similar path.

Oxlade was putting in consistently good performances by November.

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #4982 on: January 31, 2019, 11:24:18 am »
*ducks in*

*reads aquliani's name*

*sets fire to computer*
3 midfielders minimum in the next window. And probably another young CB to boot.

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #4983 on: January 31, 2019, 11:26:13 am »
That goes for the other ten players in a red shirt. Most managed to perform better.

Oxlade was putting in consistently good performances by November.
You reckon? I thought we were mostly poor last night. Gini and Mane played well, and Firmino had some flashes in an otherwise quiet game. Apart from that it was pretty bollocks across the board.

And as for Ox putting in good performances by November, I think you might be misremembering there. By the new year, yeah, but in November the jury was most definitely still out. And Naby hasn't had much of a run yet due to various factors.

I didn't think he was so bad last night.

Offline LallanaInPyjamas

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #4984 on: January 31, 2019, 11:30:49 am »

And as for Ox putting in good performances by November, I think you might be misremembering there. By the new year, yeah, but in November the jury was most definitely still out. And Naby hasn't had much of a run yet due to various factors.

Oxlade played well at West Ham and Stoke and at home to Chelsea, all in November.

Offline KingKolo

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #4985 on: January 31, 2019, 11:40:19 am »
Oxlade played well at West Ham and Stoke and at home to Chelsea, all in November.
Yeah, you're right. But I'd say that was the beginning of things starting to turn for him.

He wasn't settling into a new country/culture/language, and he'd already had a few games by then.

Keita is nowhere near what we expected so far, but I think he needs time. I'm quite puzzled as to why he's getting so badly slated off the back of last night. I thought most of the team was poor, and he did some good things.

Offline LallanaInPyjamas

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #4986 on: January 31, 2019, 11:46:55 am »
Yeah, you're right. But I'd say that was the beginning of things starting to turn for him.

He wasn't settling into a new country/culture/language, and he'd already had a few games by then.

Keita is nowhere near what we expected so far, but I think he needs time. I'm quite puzzled as to why he's getting so badly slated off the back of last night. I thought most of the team was poor, and he did some good things.

No one's slating him. One poster has compared his balance on the ball to Jari Litmanen's; another has said he has already shown more balls to play for Liverpool than most of his midfield colleagues; others are criticising the manager for substituting him despite us looking more controlled once he was off the pitch; and others are bemoaning his team-mates for not passing to him in tight areas even though we've seen him often lose the ball in those situations this season.

He's started ten games, one fewer than Shaqiri, the same as Fabinho. Both are new signings, and the latter has the same language/new club issues to defend him, and yet both have contributed significantly more to this title charge.

Offline KingKolo

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #4987 on: January 31, 2019, 11:51:37 am »
He's started ten games, one fewer than Shaqiri, the same as Fabinho. Both are new signings, and the latter has the same language/new club issues to defend him, and yet both have contributed significantly more to this title charge.
Yep, very fair points mate. Spot on, can't argue.

I thought he was a touch unlucky to be withdrawn last night, because he was showing some flashes. I do reckon there's an absolute gem in there.

It's just hard getting a game in our midfield, and I think he's nervous and trying too hard.

Edit - PS Shaqiri was absolute garbage last night.

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #4988 on: January 31, 2019, 12:00:25 pm »
Needs to get a bit stronger physically and get confidence, then no problems at all. He's a little bit lightweight right now.
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #4989 on: January 31, 2019, 12:00:43 pm »
No one's slating him. One poster has compared his balance on the ball to Jari Litmanen's, others are criticising the manager for substituting him despite us looking more controlled once he was off the pitch, and others are bemoaning his team-mates for not passing to him in tight areas even though we've seen him often lose the ball in those situations this season.

I was that poster. Clearly I have a hell of a lot more faith in his ability than you do! Admittedly you've left a few little caveats which you can slip through later when Keita's full impact on our team becomes apparent. But on the whole I think it's fair to see you don't rate him at all.

I can also see why some posters feel that he should have been trusted with the ball more in tight areas (especially in the first half). Right, steel yourself Pyjamas, because this is going to really upset you. It's the Barcelona method of attacking teams who prefer to defend deep against them. Keita has something of the Xavi in him perhaps. Xavi deliberately used to take up positions in crowded areas of the pitch because he wanted to invite the challenge as soon as he got the ball. It was the best way for him to turn a man who, otherwise was happy to concede 10 yards and let Xavi and the rest play in front of him, knocking the ball slowly and monotonously from side to side. At Leipzig Keita had a gift for using his first touch to turn an opponent and then running with the ball into the heart of what looked like an impenetrable defence. That can be devastating, especially if there are other players in the side - Firmino, Lallana - who see things early and have their own scintillating first touch.

The problem is risk. If things go wrong you risk losing the ball and, with a team like Leicester who don't panic in the first moments of possession (i.e. don't hoof), leave yourself open to counter attack. With Keita not up to full speed yet perhaps it was wise not to trust him to keep the ball when he appeared tightly marked. There again, we were woefully short of adventure in the first half (Matip and Mane aside) and too content to play at one pace in front of Leicester.   
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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #4990 on: January 31, 2019, 12:15:36 pm »
I can also see why some posters feel that he should have been trusted with the ball more in tight areas

we were woefully short of adventure in the first half 
Side stepping the Xavi stuff... but picking up on a couple of points.

Firstly, the snowy pitch caused a lot of issues with the team trying to get things going in attack.

In terms of trusting him more, I definitely think the team haven't gotten used to him as much as he hasn't gotten used to the team. He's used to the play going through him the whole time at RB Leipzig.

Offline LallanaInPyjamas

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #4991 on: January 31, 2019, 12:17:35 pm »
I was that poster. Clearly I have a hell of a lot more faith in his ability than you do! Admittedly you've left a few little caveats which you can slip through later when Keita's full impact on our team becomes apparent. But on the whole I think it's fair to see you don't rate him at all.

I can also see why some posters feel that he should have been trusted with the ball more in tight areas (especially in the first half). Right, steel yourself Pyjamas, because this is going to really upset you. It's the Barcelona method of attacking teams who prefer to defend deep against them. Keita has something of the Xavi in him perhaps. Xavi deliberately used to take up positions in crowded areas of the pitch because he wanted to invite the challenge as soon as he got the ball. It was the best way for him to turn a man who, otherwise was happy to concede 10 yards and let Xavi and the rest play in front of him, knocking the ball slowly and monotonously from side to side. At Leipzig Keita had a gift for using his first touch to turn an opponent and then running with the ball into the heart of what looked like an impenetrable defence. That can be devastating, especially if there are other players in the side - Firmino, Lallana - who see things early and have their own scintillating first touch.

The problem is risk. If things go wrong you risk losing the ball and, with a team like Leicester who don't panic in the first moments of possession (i.e. don't hoof), leave yourself open to counter attack. With Keita not up to full speed yet perhaps it was wise not to trust him to keep the ball when he appeared tightly marked. There again, we were woefully short of adventure in the first half (Matip and Mane aside) and too content to play at one pace in front of Leicester.

Why would any of that upset me? Although I'll admit that you comparing Naby Keita to Jari Litmanen and Xavi Hernandez is a little distressing, to be honest.

I've seen flashes of what you and others are saying with regards to him not receiving the ball in tight areas in other games, but I did not really see that last night at all to be honest. Keita was deep last night - at times deeper than Gini. The average positions back this up:



The debate on here in recent weeks has been that he has been playing too high up the pitch - but that is a contradiction with what you and others are now saying with regards to him receiving the ball in tight areas. If he thrives in those situations, surely you would want him in the half-spaces?

Last night he was in the position people have been calling for him to play, giving him ample time & space to run into, to "accelerate and speed up the game", in Klopp's words, which is what he was brought here to do, but instead he generally chose to lay off short, sideways passes at almost every opportunity.

The one time he did do what Klopp wants from him, he should have won a penalty, so I hope to see this more regularly, although hopefully from minute one rather than minute forty-six as has been the case in his last two starts.

I do rate Keita. I just don't appear to rate him as much as you and others do, and I certainly won't be jumping through hoops to criticise our manager and his team-mates who have proven themselves considerably more on the Liverpool payroll than he has. I've seen this story way too many times before - including with the guy in nets last season - and if often doesn't end well.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2019, 12:21:25 pm by LallanaInPyjamas »

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #4992 on: January 31, 2019, 12:18:53 pm »
Why would any of that upset me? Although I'll admit that you comparing Naby Keita to Jari Litmanen and Xavi Hernandez is a little distressing, to be honest.

There you go. I thought it would upset you!
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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #4993 on: January 31, 2019, 12:20:43 pm »
Can we knock these annoying nonsense Aquilani comparisons on the head please? There’s literally one thing they have in common and I’m not sure both merely being midfielders is really adequate.

Indeed - it's a weirdly incorrect comparison.

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #4994 on: January 31, 2019, 12:21:10 pm »
No one's slating him. One poster has compared his balance on the ball to Jari Litmanen's; another has said he has already shown more balls to play for Liverpool than most of his midfield colleagues; others are criticising the manager for substituting him despite us looking more controlled once he was off the pitch; and others are bemoaning his team-mates for not passing to him in tight areas even though we've seen him often lose the ball in those situations this season.

He's started ten games, one fewer than Shaqiri, the same as Fabinho. Both are new signings, and the latter has the same language/new club issues to defend him, and yet both have contributed significantly more to this title charge.

I'm guilty of at least three of those and I stand by everything I said. And yet if the ref had blown his whistle as he should've last night then Naby would have made the most significant contribution so far.
So bloody what? If you watch football to be absolutely miserable then go watch cricket.

Offline KingKolo

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #4995 on: January 31, 2019, 12:22:08 pm »
In all fairness, we looked a wee bit better when Fabinho came on, and I guess that says it all.

It's harder for Keita in a 4-2-3-1. He doesn't look right in the 3, and there's less spaces on offer in the 2.
In last season's 4-3-3, he'd have played more games.

Offline FlashGordon

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #4996 on: January 31, 2019, 12:24:40 pm »
In all fairness, we looked a wee bit better when Fabinho came on, and I guess that says it all.

It's harder for Keita in a 4-2-3-1. He doesn't look right in the 3, and there's less spaces on offer in the 2.
In last season's 4-3-3, he'd have played more games.

Still think that's because Leicester had got what they came for and were camped on in their own box. I know they were defensive throughout but they ceded all field position in the last 15 minutes. As I said last night, massive fan of Fabinho, but he played as an auxiliary left back last night, outside of their shape. He didn't take over the game when he came on.
So bloody what? If you watch football to be absolutely miserable then go watch cricket.

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #4997 on: January 31, 2019, 12:29:32 pm »
Still think that's because Leicester had got what they came for and were camped on in their own box. I know they were defensive throughout but they ceded all field position in the last 15 minutes. As I said last night, massive fan of Fabinho, but he played as an auxiliary left back last night, outside of their shape. He didn't take over the game when he came on.
I thought Keita was a bit unlucky to come off.

Echo player ratings gave him a 5 and called it a 'worrying performance'. I honestly don't know what game Doyle can have been watching.

Offline FlashGordon

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #4998 on: January 31, 2019, 12:31:50 pm »
I thought Keita was a bit unlucky to come off.

Echo player ratings gave him a 5 and called it a 'worrying performance'. I honestly don't know what game Doyle can have been watching.

Wijnaldum got plenty of fives at the start as well until people cottoned on to what he actually brought to proceedings.
So bloody what? If you watch football to be absolutely miserable then go watch cricket.

Offline KingKolo

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #4999 on: January 31, 2019, 12:34:00 pm »
Wijnaldum got plenty of fives at the start as well until people cottoned on to what he actually brought to proceedings.
Yeah... although a) Wijnaldum's level has definitely improved this season and b) his strengths aren't as 'visible' as Keita's.

But I thought last night Keita was trying to make things happen.