Topic: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)

[DangerScouse]

It's more basic than that even, it's about making sure everyone has to stand in a set space which is determined by the ticket they purchase. If you buy a ticket for Row 7, Spot 54 then, like a seated ticket, that's where you go.

At most the furthest forward you could fall is 1/2 a row (barriers are every seated row, every 2 standing rows), and the amount of people who could fall from behind on to you or push on to you is limited to 1.

Was in 304 for both Mellor's and Gerrard's goals in 2004 and ended up about 10 rows down, it was fucking carnage and dangerous but to be honest no one cared. That wouldn't happen under what's being looked at now.

[whiteboots]

Entitled to her opinion but it's not one I agree with.

http://www.joe.co.uk/sport/i-never-want-to-think-that-my-grandchildren-could-one-day-end-up-standing-at-a-football-match/91297

She is wrong.

She assumes that people now sit in all seaters. They do not. The entire premise of her position is flawed.

[Redman0151]

Entitled to her opinion but it's not one I agree with.

http://www.joe.co.uk/sport/i-never-want-to-think-that-my-grandchildren-could-one-day-end-up-standing-at-a-football-match/91297

I respect her opinion but I can't agree at all here

"If standing returns in any form it might be okay for 12 months and it could be okay for two years but how long would it take before the mistakes of the past are repeated? How long before there are calls for the return of fencing? How long before it is decided that a space that's designed to fit in 500 people can fit in a couple of hundred more? "

I'm sorry but that's just a slippery slope fallacy. It should be obvious from just reading it why it's wrong.

I have been to many games at all seater stadiums, especially Anfield, where the atmosphere is as good as it can be. It's people who make the atmosphere, not whether you are sitting or standing.

The best atmospheres at Anfield have ALL been when the entire Kop is standing for the game, she seems to brush over this a lot.

“I never want to go backwards. I never want to think that my grandchildren could one day end up standing at a football match.

Then make sure your grandchildren never go to an Away game, or stand on the back of the kop, or any part of the kop in Europe/United/Everton. The reality is people are standing every week, and the current situation causes injuries and problems, especially after goals are scored.

Everyone has a right to their opinion, they are entitled to their opinion, but I also feel the families have a right to their opinion and more reason to hold the opinions that they do. I'm also a great believer in debates because that is healthy but I don't want people being pressurised. All views should be respected and both sides should be willing to listen to the arguments being put forward by one another without being aggressive.

Absolutely spot on here, and this should be repeated by all.


The HFSG position just doesn't seem to take into account the fact that people never stopped standing in the first place, all we're stuck with now is a standing system which isn't completely safe and reduces capacities at stadiums. It feels like a stupid compromise right now that benefits nobody. People who hate standing still have to deal with standing, fans who like standing aren't in proper standing positions, stewards are constantly stuck between accepting people standing or fighting to get them to sit down, clubs sell less tickets.

[lfc79]

Most of the argument against standing at top flight games don't really make logical sense and reflect the reasons it was introduced were more to do with trouble around the game in the 80's than actual dangers to fans of standing.
Standing was not stopped overnight due to commercial reasons in the same way that it is still allowed in the lower leagues, what would happen if say Leeds were relegated and decided to bring in standing at a 38,000 capacity eland road? Or look at music festivals there have been numerous fatal crowd incidents has standing been banned at any of these events?

Ultimately people who have lost loved ones to horrible negligence on the part of the authorities won't trust them again but the modern stadium reality in that various standing arrangement would pose only risk of very minor injury and current rail arrangements being trialled less so that current standing in seated areas.

[Eeyore]

It's more basic than that even, it's about making sure everyone has to stand in a set space which is determined by the ticket they purchase. If you buy a ticket for Row 7, Spot 54 then, like a seated ticket, that's where you go.

At most the furthest forward you could fall is 1/2 a row (barriers are every seated row, every 2 standing rows), and the amount of people who could fall from behind on to you or push on to you is limited to 1.

It is so simple that I am truly amazed that they haven't introduced it on trains and buses. Or how about bars or music venues. Give  a 5ft 2 person a spot number and I am sure they will stand behind the 6ft 7 person in front. Likewise with bunches of friends they won't dare stray from their designated spot and stand next to friends.

I don't think the TV companies will like the half hour wait though after a goal celebration when the stewards re-arrange the terrace and get everyone back on their blobs of paint though.

[Lolo]

It is so simple that I am truly amazed that they haven't introduced it on trains and buses. Or how about bars or music venues. Give  a 5ft 2 person a spot number and I am sure they will stand behind the 6ft 7 person in front. Likewise with bunches of friends they won't dare stray from their designated spot and stand next to friends.

I don't think the TV companies will like the half hour wait though after a goal celebration when the stewards re-arrange the terrace and get everyone back on their blobs of paint though.

I waited a long time for the expected editing of this to add the smiley face......but now this hasn't appeared I'm increasingly worried that you may actually be serious about what you wrote.

So.....if you're in your assigned seating position and you see some of your mates a few rows away, do you just get up, wander over and STEAL somebody's seat so you can sit next to your mates?
Or when people fall into the area in front of them (which is VERY easy to do when you're standing up in a current all-seater spot), does the ref stop the game while everybody sits down again?
Or have you EVER been to a stadium in the past where you stand on the terraces and there's a tall guy in front of you and you haven't simply adjusted yourself so you can see past him?

What a completely stupid thing to suggest!

In a safe-standing 'spot' there are only 2 people, one behind the other. People behind CAN'T fall into your back; nor can you fall into anyone in front.
You CAN'T just wander over and stand with your mates because you have an ALLOCATED position.
And as for being stuck behind a tall person.....I was going into the standing Kop from when I was 13 and NEVER missed any of the game because of any tall dude. You simply ADJUST!

[Nessy76]

I waited a long time for the expected editing of this to add the smiley face......but now this hasn't appeared I'm increasingly worried that you may actually be serious about what you wrote.

So.....if you're in your assigned seating position and you see some of your mates a few rows away, do you just get up, wander over and STEAL somebody's seat so you can sit next to your mates?
Or when people fall into the area in front of them (which is VERY easy to do when you're standing up in a current all-seater spot), does the ref stop the game while everybody sits down again?
Or have you EVER been to a stadium in the past where you stand on the terraces and there's a tall guy in front of you and you haven't simply adjusted yourself so you can see past him?

What a completely stupid thing to suggest!

In a safe-standing 'spot' there are only 2 people, one behind the other. People behind CAN'T fall into your back; nor can you fall into anyone in front.
You CAN'T just wander over and stand with your mates because you have an ALLOCATED position.
And as for being stuck behind a tall person.....I was going into the standing Kop from when I was 13 and NEVER missed any of the game because of any tall dude. You simply ADJUST!

Al doesn't adjust. He just changes the subject.

[Eeyore]

I waited a long time for the expected editing of this to add the smiley face......but now this hasn't appeared I'm increasingly worried that you may actually be serious about what you wrote.

So.....if you're in your assigned seating position and you see some of your mates a few rows away, do you just get up, wander over and STEAL somebody's seat so you can sit next to your mates?
Or when people fall into the area in front of them (which is VERY easy to do when you're standing up in a current all-seater spot), does the ref stop the game while everybody sits down again?
Or have you EVER been to a stadium in the past where you stand on the terraces and there's a tall guy in front of you and you haven't simply adjusted yourself so you can see past him?

What a completely stupid thing to suggest!

In a safe-standing 'spot' there are only 2 people, one behind the other. People behind CAN'T fall into your back; nor can you fall into anyone in front.
You CAN'T just wander over and stand with your mates because you have an ALLOCATED position.
And as for being stuck behind a tall person.....I was going into the standing Kop from when I was 13 and NEVER missed any of the game because of any tall dude. You simply ADJUST!

So the same fans who currently completely ignore the rules over persistent standing at games are suddenly going to have an epiphany and suddenly start obeying the rules to the letter of the law.

What you seem to be missing is that it is human nature to take possession of a seat but totally counter intuitive to try and take possession of a standing spot. If it was easy to allocate standing spots then don't you think companies would of taken advantage of it and charged premium prices for premium spaces at say a concert for instance.

[Big Red Richie]

So the same fans who currently completely ignore the rules over persistent standing at games are suddenly going to have an epiphany and suddenly start obeying the rules to the letter of the law.

What you seem to be missing is that it is human nature to take possession of a seat but totally counter intuitive to try and take possession of a standing spot. If it was easy to allocate standing spots then don't you think companies would of taken advantage of it and charged premium prices for premium spaces at say a concert for instance.

I take it you've never been to other sports venues then, where dedicated standing spots are allocated, and marked on your ticket?

Many moons ago, I went to watch an ice hockey game in Toronto.(old Maple Leaf Gardens if anyone's interested), and behind the seating area, around the back of the stand, you had dedicated standing area's, and you stood where your ticket told you to stand.

No, it wasn't en masse, and not in great numbers, but everyone adhered to the rules.

It might well need a bit of retraining of the crowd mentality, but in the early days, if numerous spot checks are performed, and anyone not in their dedicated spot is immediately ejected from the stadium, the word will soon get around, and people will adhere to the policy, or face the consequences.

[lfc79]

In fairness, they do have allocated "golden circle" standing areas at the front at some festivals now, crowds at music venues is that people are packed in at high densities that are viewed as unacceptable at football, plus at music events people want to dance and move around  which is not conducive to having to remain in one space.
The issue of fans obeying the rules is based partly around consent given the size of the crowd and number of stewards, small trials recorded membership  cards for people standing and bans for those who break the rules might work.

[Eeyore]

I think the keyword is consent. The other thing is that Clubs have nothing to gain but everything to lose by banning their own fans. For me it is why they have been very reluctant to enforce the regulations regarding persistent standing. Personally I think it is would be far easier to implement and safer if we introduced rail seating but kept to 1 fan per seat.

If it works and proves to be safe then there may be a case for higher capacities but personally I think it is imperative that we embed the cultural changes into fans psyche before we look at going above 1 fan 1 seat. 

[Anfield89]

I waited a long time for the expected editing of this to add the smiley face......but now this hasn't appeared I'm increasingly worried that you may actually be serious about what you wrote.

So.....if you're in your assigned seating position and you see some of your mates a few rows away, do you just get up, wander over and STEAL somebody's seat so you can sit next to your mates?
Or when people fall into the area in front of them (which is VERY easy to do when you're standing up in a current all-seater spot), does the ref stop the game while everybody sits down again?
Or have you EVER been to a stadium in the past where you stand on the terraces and there's a tall guy in front of you and you haven't simply adjusted yourself so you can see past him?

What a completely stupid thing to suggest!

In a safe-standing 'spot' there are only 2 people, one behind the other. People behind CAN'T fall into your back; nor can you fall into anyone in front.
You CAN'T just wander over and stand with your mates because you have an ALLOCATED position.
And as for being stuck behind a tall person.....I was going into the standing Kop from when I was 13 and NEVER missed any of the game because of any tall dude. You simply ADJUST!

Plenty do it at away games.

[Jake]

Even if you do move from one spot to another, something I've done in the seated kop many a time, walked up to the 300s etc, then so what? There's a finite number of people in the stand, so you can't get overcrowding.

[Nessy76]

Plenty do it at away games.

Where they don't have safe standing...

[Anfield89]

Where they don't have safe standing...

Having a rail in front of you isn't going to stop people moving around at away games.

[Anfield89]

Even if you do move from one spot to another, something I've done in the seated kop many a time, walked up to the 300s etc, then so what? There's a finite number of people in the stand, so you can't get overcrowding.

With a rail it wouldn't be a problem but if you over crowd a row with the current set up then there's more risk of people falling forwards.

[Eeyore]

Even if you do move from one spot to another, something I've done in the seated kop many a time, walked up to the 300s etc, then so what? There's a finite number of people in the stand, so you can't get overcrowding.

The problem is that if safe standing areas are unreserved or become in effect unreserved because people ignore the regulations then fans will tend to congregate in the areas with the best view/atmosphere. Whilst the whole stand won't be overcrowded the most popular areas will be.

Combine that with up to 1.8 more people needing access to emergency exits and it wouldn't take much for there to be problems.

At the moment it is rare for people to try and stand where they shouldn't do and overload areas but safe standing will make it both easier to do, harder to spot and much harder to Police. If there are extra people squeezed into the middle of a row it will be almost impossible and impractical for the stewards and Police to do anything about it.

Then you look at the reasons behind safe standing and one of the prime movers is that it will become easier for fans to get tickets. That means you will get more casual fans who have less to lose by not following the ground regulations combined with less fans who sit/stand in the same place week in week out.

Something else that is also rarely mentioned is that going to 1:8 fans will bizarrely reduce the capacity of the ground for European games. More fans will mean more exits which will eat into the number of seats available when the seats have to be used. From FSG's point of view you also have the problem of excess capacity for some games which makes the more expensive seats harder to sell.

Personally I think 1:1 rail seating gives us the benefit of added safety without compromising the added safety of 1 fan 1 seat/space brings.

[Jake]

The problem is that if safe standing areas are unreserved or become in effect unreserved because people ignore the regulations then fans will tend to congregate in the areas with the best view/atmosphere. Whilst the whole stand won't be overcrowded the most popular areas will be.

Combine that with up to 1.8 more people needing access to emergency exits and it wouldn't take much for there to be problems..

Agree with these first two points. I wouldn't support 1:8. Anfield and the surrounding area is busy enough as it is with 54k.

[Smurfite]

From FSG's point of view you also have the problem of excess capacity for some games which makes the more expensive seats harder to sell.

In regards to this point I'm just wondering whether if we did manage to get to the point where we can have a higher than 1:1 ratio could the club potentially get around this issue by changeing the ratio on a game by game basis. For instance say a semi final game at anfield has a full 1.8 ratio but a league game against a lower level side has it reduced to a 1.4.

"My post has been amended by autocorrect. Please report me to the site admins for being ignorant".: Does a ratio have to be fixed or can it be flexible on a game by game basis? 

[Jake]

"My post has been amended by autocorrect. Please report me to the site admins for being ignorant"

What the heck happened here

[Smurfite]

What the heck happened here

Apparently thats what happens when you put the Too Long Didn't Read anagram Guess I'm too used to reddit

[Jake]

Wenger has come out in his presser today and said he backs safe standing.

[ToneLa]

Good on him.

[andy07]

Wenger has come out in his presser today and said he backs safe standing.

So do the vast majority of fans, it is an absolute no brainer.

[Nessy76]

Doubt we'll see any changes until West Ham's fans grow the fuck up.

[Lolo]

Doubt we'll see any changes until West Ham's fans grow the fuck up.

.....By their construction, a rail seat is almost certainly a lot more difficult to rip out from it's moorings and throw around, so they may actually be helping the cause  !

[Nessy76]

.....By their construction, a rail seat is almost certainly a lot more difficult to rip out from it's moorings and throw around, so they may actually be helping the cause  !

I've no doubt you are right, but the attitude will be to "clamp down" and that means fans sat down as far as the authorities are concerned.

[Billy Elliot]

SOS have put up their timeline for consultation:

http://www.spiritofshankly.com/news/rail-seating-debate-timeline-for-consultation

[whiteboots]

Well done to SOS

[Billy Elliot]

'Ground Safety Experts (both anti and pro)'.  Are there any anti-standing, ground safety experts?  Probably are, I've just never heard of any of them say it's unsafe.

[iamnant]

As someone who's shins still haven't recovered from the wild celebrations for Ramsey's goal for Wales v Russia in Toulouse, I am all for safe standing. We always stand in away and home games watching Wales - and that won't change - so, for me, it's a no brainer to at least make it safer.

[Samie]

The Premier League will discuss the issue of safe-standing at a meeting between clubs next week. http://bbc.in/2fGinWW

The Premier League will discuss the issue of safe-standing areas at a routine meeting between the 20 top-flight clubs next week.

There is no suggestion a decision will be taken but it is understood a few clubs are keen to discuss the matter.

Many, however, are not yet sure of their opinion and the Premier League is conscious that it is a sensitive topic.

It is, therefore, merely an initial discussion to ascertain the clubs' initial views.

All-seater stadiums have been compulsory in the top two divisions in England since an inquiry into the 1989 Hillsborough disaster, which claimed the lives of 96 Liverpool fans.

Any changes to the existing legislation would require government approval.

Safe-standing areas, featuring retractable seats, have been introduced abroad, most notably in Germany.

In July, Celtic opened a new 2,900-capacity safe-standing section, comprising rail seating installed in the north-east corner of Celtic Park.

Rail seats can be unlocked or locked, to create either a standing or seated area.

[gazzam1963]

The Premier League will discuss the issue of safe-standing at a meeting between clubs next week. http://bbc.in/2fGinWW

If the idea of  redeveloping the anfield road because of the lack of corporate seats has been shelved , anyone any idea hiw much the capacity would be boosted by safe standing .

[Big Red Richie]

The Premier League will discuss the issue of safe-standing at a meeting between clubs next week. http://bbc.in/2fGinWW

It was inevitable that they had to bring it to the table at some point.

They can't keep their head in the sand indefinitely.

This meeting is a testing of the water, so to speak.  If enough Premier League clubs show an interest, then I'd expect a full on discussion and revue of the subject, in the foreseeable future.

[CraigDS]

You would hope the outcome of this meeting will be either an agreement for each club to go away and assess the feasibility and demand for safe standing for future discussion, or better yet an agreement for the PL to carry out it's own studies on it.

[Nessy76]

If the idea of  redeveloping the anfield road because of the lack of corporate seats has been shelved , anyone any idea hiw much the capacity would be boosted by safe standing .

There's been a lot of discussion over this question and there isn't a straightforward answer. In principle you can get 1.8 people standing in the space of 1 seat (or 180 per 100 seats if that makes more sense), but that's not allowing for the fact you need more exits, wider walkways and so on.

[gazzam1963]

There's been a lot of discussion over this question and there isn't a straightforward answer. In principle you can get 1.8 people standing in the space of 1 seat (or 180 per 100 seats if that makes more sense), but that's not allowing for the fact you need more exits, wider walkways and so on.

A quick google indicates the  ARE is around 9000 so the lower may be around 6000 which would give the attendance a boost by 4800 , do you defintley need new walkways as the lower Main stand seems to have less than before the redevelopment inc the two paddock ones at either side near the bottom ..and are the exits now in the anfield road the same ones when it was standing

[andy07]

A quick google indicates the  ARE is around 9000 so the lower may be around 6000 which would give the attendance a boost by 4800 , do you defintley need new walkways as the lower Main stand seems to have less than before the redevelopment inc the two paddock ones at either side near the bottom ..and are the exits now in the anfield road the same ones when it was standing

The old ARE had a big exit right behind the goal, you could enter at either side at ground level or via one of the four raised entries that brought you in at the top.  The current layout of entries is a total reconfiguration albeit the concourse is much the same.  If we don't go for the extended design and want to go for a standing lower tier, an expanded concourse would be needed to accommodate another few thousand, easily doable by extending outwards over the current Annie Road.

[davidsteventon]

Outside of LFC, are many other clubs or groups or individuals vocal about NOT wanting rail seating areas?

[CentenaryBoy]

Does anyone imagine that if safe standing was approved by the Premier League, Liverpool would agree to it if the HFSG were opposed?