Author Topic: Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Brendan's round table cheerio.  (Read 32432 times)

Online SamAteTheRedAcid

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Re: Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Brendan's round table cheerio.
« Reply #80 on: October 7, 2015, 09:07:40 am »
To your last point, it was great to see us show some bollocks and demand large fees for the sales of Suarez & Sterling. Probably the only other time we did that was with the Alonso sale.

Yep, we've been terrible at selling but I think we might gradually be getting better at it. That's a nice positive to have.

Even so, David Luiz can fuck off, we don't want a big fee from Barca for Coutinho, we'll keep him thanks ;D
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Offline Butcher Knife Roberto

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Re: Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Brendan's round table cheerio.
« Reply #81 on: October 7, 2015, 10:43:57 am »
I think Brendan felt as confident as ever, up until very recently, that he was still FSG's 'man'. I actually admire that he never truly cracked in front of the press, maintained an image, tried to stick to his principles and had an unshakable belief that things were going to go right eventually. It's his stubbornness to move from his beliefs, though, that I think led to his downfall, especially tactically. From a personality viewpoint he looked the ideal fit; young, ambitious, relatively well educated in the game. But his inability to have a plan B, the arrogant bravado of the 'we'll just keep scoring more than you' mentality that meant there was a weakness in the team when it came to grinding out results was the ultimate downfall.

It was all very boom or bust, reminded me of Keegan's Newcastle, who played some of the best attacking football of the 90's. The point made earlier by a poster about the league being lost at Hull away rather than Gerrard slipping against Chelsea is absolutely bang on the money. As well as having the dynamic, swashbuckling scoring machine we needed the steel at the back, the 1-nil scorelines on bleak Monday nights in the depths of winter, the smash-and-grab raids when you're getting battered. You look at a team like City who can score as many as they want at times, but then have a rock such as Vincent Kompany at the back, controlling the defence. We lost that when Carra retired, and the midfield dominance when Gerrard started to fade and then  left. I don't strictly buy the case that losing Suarez broke the team. We were playing rather nicely when he was still banned. The loss of the Scouse heartbeat is what did it for Brendan.

Reminiscing about 13/14 is nice, but won't do the club any good moving forward. We have a young squad that needs a leader to emerge, a mentally weak defence that needs an organiser. As I said earlier, I admire Brendan for having the onions to stick to his principles, but ultimately his principles no longer match the needs of the sleeping giant of Liverpool Football Club. I hope he takes a break from the game for a while and doesn't just jump back in at the first offer that comes his way - I'd actually like to see him manage abroad, somewhere like the Bundesliga or La Liga, somewhere not as much of a goldfish bowl as the Premier League. McLaren and Moyes weren't afraid to give it a go. I'd also like him to succeed wherever he goes (unless it's back to the plastics, of course), and bring his vision to life. He gave us one of the most exciting seasons for years, but that's about it.

Offline conman

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Re: Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Brendan's round table cheerio.
« Reply #82 on: October 7, 2015, 10:46:30 am »
I think Brendan felt as confident as ever, up until very recently, that he was still FSG's 'man'. I actually admire that he never truly cracked in front of the press, maintained an image, tried to stick to his principles and had an unshakable belief that things were going to go right eventually. It's his stubbornness to move from his beliefs, though, that I think led to his downfall, especially tactically. From a personality viewpoint he looked the ideal fit; young, ambitious, relatively well educated in the game. But his inability to have a plan B, the arrogant bravado of the 'we'll just keep scoring more than you' mentality that meant there was a weakness in the team when it came to grinding out results was the ultimate downfall.

It was all very boom or bust, reminded me of Keegan's Newcastle, who played some of the best attacking football of the 90's. The point made earlier by a poster about the league being lost at Hull away rather than Gerrard slipping against Chelsea is absolutely bang on the money. As well as having the dynamic, swashbuckling scoring machine we needed the steel at the back, the 1-nil scorelines on bleak Monday nights in the depths of winter, the smash-and-grab raids when you're getting battered. You look at a team like City who can score as many as they want at times, but then have a rock such as Vincent Kompany at the back, controlling the defence. We lost that when Carra retired, and the midfield dominance when Gerrard started to fade and then  left. I don't strictly buy the case that losing Suarez broke the team. We were playing rather nicely when he was still banned. The loss of the Scouse heartbeat is what did it for Brendan.

Reminiscing about 13/14 is nice, but won't do the club any good moving forward. We have a young squad that needs a leader to emerge, a mentally weak defence that needs an organiser. As I said earlier, I admire Brendan for having the onions to stick to his principles, but ultimately his principles no longer match the needs of the sleeping giant of Liverpool Football Club. I hope he takes a break from the game for a while and doesn't just jump back in at the first offer that comes his way - I'd actually like to see him manage abroad, somewhere like the Bundesliga or La Liga, somewhere not as much of a goldfish bowl as the Premier League. McLaren and Moyes weren't afraid to give it a go. I'd also like him to succeed wherever he goes (unless it's back to the plastics, of course), and bring his vision to life. He gave us one of the most exciting seasons for years, but that's about it.
I think part of the problem is that he didn't stick to his principles. I do wonder where we would be now, if he continued with his focus on implementing his possession game, like he was doing at the beginning. I'd imagine we wouldn't have come 2nd the season after, but we may be a shoe in for the top 4 year on year.

Offline redmark

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Re: Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Brendan's round table cheerio.
« Reply #83 on: October 7, 2015, 10:57:58 am »
That's simply not true.

Net spend shouldn't be used in isolation as a comparison. You have to understand the context.

Unfortunately I don't have a breakdown of Ged & Evans transfer spends for comparison, but they were never blessed with lots of money. Sure Roy broke the bank to buy Stan Collymore, but that was the exception, not the rule.

Rafa though, he had to wheel and deal his way in the transfer market, which is something that Brendan hasn't had to do. He couldn't upgrade a position without selling on the existing player, he couldn't build a team without reducing the size of the squad. Right off the bat, he had to sell Owen & Murphy, before he could bring in Alonso & Garcia (and Nunez).

In one of the pieces assessing player transfer inflation (Tomkins I think, though might have been someone else), it transpires that all of our big 'number nine' signings over the years have been remarkably close (Carroll apart, who was "Torres minus £15m").

Basically, the fees for Collymore, Heskey, Cisse, Torres and Benteke were almost identical (i.e. within a million or two), adjusted for inflation.
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Offline conman

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Re: Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Brendan's round table cheerio.
« Reply #84 on: October 7, 2015, 11:04:57 am »
In one of the pieces assessing player transfer inflation (Tomkins I think, though might have been someone else), it transpires that all of our big 'number nine' signings over the years have been remarkably close (Carroll apart, who was "Torres minus £15m").

Basically, the fees for Collymore, Heskey, Cisse, Torres and Benteke were almost identical (i.e. within a million or two), adjusted for inflation.

I won't disagree there.

The difference between now and then, is that we have much more liberty these days to buy better players all around.

Offline Chakan

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Re: Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Brendan's round table cheerio.
« Reply #85 on: October 7, 2015, 01:51:07 pm »
The argument the squad was too large was used as a stick to beat Benitez with many times, so I doubt ours is much more bloated now.

The point I am making is that 'Brendan spent 300m, more than any other Liverpool manager' is a bollocks argument - it's not hard to see how the market has become ridiculous over the last few years, and whoever was in charge would have been the biggest spending Liverpool manager, because the prices are higher. It's simple.

Yes comparitively we may have spent slightly more compared with our rivals than in the past - but that's not what I'm arguing about. It's the meaningless 300m bollocks.

Which also conveniently ignores the fact we recouped £125 million for 2 players! So if he spend loads more than our previous managers, he also made a lot more in enforced sales.

Just a couple of things to consider. Sure the market is inflated at the moment, no-one is denying that, the TV deal only kicks in next year as far as I know, so it wouldn't have affected the price of players when Brendan was here. It's a factor people will have to deal with coming up, but not right now.

Rodgers also spent 300m in 3 and a bit years , whereas Rafa was here for 5. So a bit of a difference there.

While Brendan did a good job of getting value for money out of players he sold like the Suarez and Sterling, he also overpaid for some players coming in that haven't delivered (not the first manager we've had that did that btw).

Offline DonkeyWan

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Re: Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Brendan's round table cheerio.
« Reply #86 on: October 7, 2015, 03:12:03 pm »
What's actually getting on my nerves now are all the journals calling Liverpool fans unreasonable. 10th richest team in the wworld, fifth in the PL, is CL that unreasonable an ambition? As for impatient, 3 seasons and a bit in charge. How many managerial changes have Chelsea, United and City had in that time? Ridiculous downplaying of LFC by the media.
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Re: Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Brendan's round table cheerio.
« Reply #87 on: October 7, 2015, 03:21:27 pm »
What's actually getting on my nerves now are all the journals calling Liverpool fans unreasonable. 10th richest team in the wworld, fifth in the PL, is CL that unreasonable an ambition? As for impatient, 3 seasons and a bit in charge. How many managerial changes have Chelsea, United and City had in that time? Ridiculous downplaying of LFC by the media.

I think the theory is that if we paid fifth and we get fifth, then why are we complaining? The two Mancs, Arsenal and Chelsea have more money than us, and pay more than us, both in wages and transfer fees, so why is it such an affront to us when we finish behind them?

Offline Loo Pan

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Re: Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Brendan's round table cheerio.
« Reply #88 on: October 7, 2015, 03:25:13 pm »
What's actually getting on my nerves now are all the journals calling Liverpool fans unreasonable. 10th richest team in the wworld, fifth in the PL, is CL that unreasonable an ambition? As for impatient, 3 seasons and a bit in charge. How many managerial changes have Chelsea, United and City had in that time? Ridiculous downplaying of LFC by the media.

Yes, but apparently we're all deluded muppets who are expecting the league title to be delivered to us, and that's why we wanted rid of Rodgers. We should just accept our status in the game as a club that can't compete.

It's just an excuse for people to have a pop at Liverpool fans and Liverpool Football Club.

Offline DonkeyWan

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Re: Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Brendan's round table cheerio.
« Reply #89 on: October 7, 2015, 03:32:41 pm »
I think the theory is that if we paid fifth and we get fifth, then why are we complaining? The two Mancs, Arsenal and Chelsea have more money than us, and pay more than us, both in wages and transfer fees, so why is it such an affront to us when we finish behind them?
Didn't even get 5th last season! Maddening so it is.
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Offline jamie_c

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Re: Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Brendan's round table cheerio.
« Reply #90 on: October 7, 2015, 04:12:13 pm »
Yes, but apparently we're all deluded muppets who are expecting the league title to be delivered to us, and that's why we wanted rid of Rodgers. We should just accept our status in the game as a club that can't compete.

It's just an excuse for people to have a pop at Liverpool fans and Liverpool Football Club.

To anyone that looks at cold hard stats we are a bunch of deluded muppets, wage bill and winners of the premier league can be mapped virtually together for the last 20 years, right now we have the 5th highest wage bill.

There are obviously examples of teams in Europe over achieving, Rafa did it with Valencia (I personally don’t think he did it with us in the league consistently, he missed top 4 in 2 seasons when we were top 4 in wage bill which is a big under achievement, obviously he was a fantastic cup manager)  Klopp did it with Dortmund but was unable to sustain it and A Madrid did it last season.

We need a manager he has the potential to over achieve but if you think any manager is going to achieve top 4 sustained success without a top 4 wage bill then you’re wrong and history proves that.  Our rivals will continue to outspend us until they overtake again.

We had a manager who proved he could over deliver, he had to sell 2 of his best players and his 2nd best player was injured for a year.  I would also defend a lot of the signings, people claim £300m wasted etc because we have dropped out of the top 4, when you actually break it down I think the players we have bought are basically performing at exactly the same level as their previous clubs.  Lovren / Markovic and Balotelli have under achieved but the rest are what we bought, mid range players, some of whom will get better some will decline, if you buy in the mid range you are going to get a few gems (Countinho and Sturridge) but these are the exceptions rather than the rule.  FSG are trying to build a business model where these players are identified but every club is trying to do that and no one really has a competitive advantage anymore (Wenger used to have one in the 2000’s but everyone else has caught up)

So you then have to take a step back and say do we back a guy who delivered our best season in 27 years, or do we scrap it all and start again.

It might sound sad but that season was so brilliant to watch, I went to so many incredible games and I’ve never seen a Liverpool team play like that and it’s the only time I ever believed we could do it, life is cruel though and it was not meant to be.

As I stated above unless we match the big spenders I don’t think we are going to get sustained success as a club and we the fanbase will be calling for the managers head again in 3 years time.

Offline Loo Pan

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Re: Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Brendan's round table cheerio.
« Reply #91 on: October 7, 2015, 04:49:52 pm »
To anyone that looks at cold hard stats we are a bunch of deluded muppets, wage bill and winners of the premier league can be mapped virtually together for the last 20 years, right now we have the 5th highest wage bill.

Nonsense. I don't know anyone who expects us to win the league title. As things stand, we have an outside chance each year, most people realise that. That's why so many people were thrilled just to come second two years ago.

There are obviously examples of teams in Europe over achieving, Rafa did it with Valencia (I personally don’t think he did it with us in the league consistently, he missed top 4 in 2 seasons when we were top 4 in wage bill which is a big under achievement, obviously he was a fantastic cup manager)

No, it wasn't a big under achievement really, given the circumstances at the club. His first season new to the league, with a weakened squad, and his final season, again with a weakened squad due to H + G, and a horrendous run with injuries. Context is important. That would be like claiming that Brendan had a big under achievement in his first season at the club, which also wouldn't really be fair.



We need a manager he has the potential to over achieve but if you think any manager is going to achieve top 4 sustained success without a top 4 wage bill then you’re wrong and history proves that.  Our rivals will continue to outspend us until they overtake again.

Who says we have to stay in 5th place financially?

Arsenal really aren't that far ahead of us.

Of course, expecting to finish in the top 4 every year is unrealistic for us given our situation, even if we do become the 4th richest club in the future. However, with a very good manager something like 2 out of every 3 seasons could become a possibility.

So you then have to take a step back and say do we back a guy who delivered our best season in 27 years, or do we scrap it all and start again.

Brendan didn't prove himself capable of building anything in his time at the club. There's nothing really to scrap. He's been staggering around from idea to idea for the last 14 months.

The dynamite attack papered over the chasms in 13/14, but the house of cards collapsed when Suarez left. We were dreadful last season with Sterling still here. And the failure to adequately plan for and replace Suarez has to lie firmly with Brendan. He didn't want a DOF, so the evolution of our squad was his responsibility. The lack of planning for Suarez's departure was bordering on negligence.

He shouldn't have been sat there in his 4th season talking about the need to rebuild just because Suarez left over a year before.

And if we do need to rebuild, which we probably do still to some extent, then Brendan could not be trusted to do it given his poor decisions in the transfer market, and his inability to coach his team to make his preferred system work. Giving up on his 4-3-3 again to desperately go back to the back 3 was an admission of failure, by his actions if not his words.

And we haven't even touched on his lack of tactical acumen, and dreadful record in European football. Which should still be a fundamental part of what this club is about.

We can get a better, proven manager to do the job. If Klopp joins there shouldn't be any debate about that, so it would be a poor decision to stick with Brendan given the problems he was quite blatantly having.


As I stated above unless we match the big spenders I don’t think we are going to get sustained success as a club and we the fanbase will be calling for the managers head again in 3 years time.


If you're idea of sustained success is winning major trophies on a regular basis, then no we won't achieve that without new owners.

But I think the expectations of Liverpool Football Club have never been lower in my lifetime.

The occasional cup, with semi-regular participation in the CL and the occasional tilt at the title would probably be seen as a form of success by a lot of people at the moment (even if the ultimate goal of the title still remains, as it should), and it's realistic with the right manager in charge.
« Last Edit: October 7, 2015, 04:55:52 pm by Loo Pan »

Offline jamie_c

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Re: Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Brendan's round table cheerio.
« Reply #92 on: October 7, 2015, 05:32:44 pm »
But I think the expectations of Liverpool Football Club have never been lower in my lifetime.

The occasional cup, with semi-regular participation in the CL and the occasional tilt at the title would probably be seen as a form of success by a lot of people at the moment (even if the ultimate goal of the title still remains, as it should), and it's realistic with the right manager in charge.
[/quote]

We fundamentally disagree but you have made your points well.

The one thing I would pick you up on is the last sentence.  Semi regular participation in the champions league is exactly what Rodgers delivered, that means seasons like last year where you miss out and the club go backwards.

This whole situation proves that people can't accept the club going backwards and will immediately turn on the manager.  If the fanbase can turn on a guy who delivered that season then they will turn on every single manager going forward.  This is going to happen again and again so i disagree that peoples expectations have never been lower.  If people are viewing Brendan's appointment as a failure and the wrong man (and many are) then there expectations are clearly never going to be met.



Offline conman

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Re: Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Brendan's round table cheerio.
« Reply #93 on: October 7, 2015, 05:48:23 pm »
I agree with everything there loo pan, well said.

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Re: Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Brendan's round table cheerio.
« Reply #94 on: October 7, 2015, 11:48:48 pm »
As with Gérard Houllier back in 2004, I’m sad that it ended this way but the sadness is mitigated by a vague, guilty sense of relief (which, incidentally, has nothing to do with the identity of his probable successor). That’s not to excuse the culpability of the club’s executive management for their part in Liverpool’s struggles over the past eighteen months or the shitty manner in which they allegedly notified Brendan Rodgers that his services were no longer required, nor does it diminish the work done during his 3+ years at Anfield, much of which was positive. At the same time, and regardless of how uneasy it feels to see a Liverpool manager sacked after only three and a half years in the job (particularly one who almost achieved something incredible less than two seasons ago), it’s highly unlikely that you’ll ever climb out of a hole by digging and, as with Houllier in the closing weeks and months of the 2003/04 season, it had gotten to a point where even the wonderful memories of the past couldn’t adequately cover for the feeling that things were unlikely to get any better in the future.

The respective roads which led to the departures of both men were pretty similar too even if, on the face of it, they were very different in their approach. Houllier immediately made Liverpool defensively strong upon taking sole charge of the club, quickly bringing in the likes of Sami Hyypia, Markus Babbel, Stephane Henchoz, Didi Hamann and building from the back (he even once signed two goalkeepers on the same day), whereas one of Rodgers’ biggest failings was an inability (or was it unwillingness?) to make his team anything even approaching solid, much less frugal. Houllier also won trophies, although he never came as close to winning the League title as Rodgers did. All differences aside, the same three factors did for both their reigns: (1) the squad deteriorated on their watch, (2) the goals dried up and, most tellingly, (3) the pressure of the Liverpool job saw both retreat into a shell of negativity that not only suited neither them nor the club, but also rendered their teams unrecognisable from their respective peaks of a few seasons earlier.

Houllier’s best season (2000/01) saw over 120 goals scored across all competitions. Similarly, Brendan Rodgers’ best season saw over 100 goals scored, albeit at a far greater rate (2.6 per game vs. 2.0). At some point after these high points they stumbled as they attempted to replenish their squads. Misjudgements were made, the pressure heightened as a consequence. That pressure gave way to negativity, which proved to be a false economy. Houllier’s team scored a single goal or less in 21 of his last 38 League games in charge (the 2003/04 season, basically), or 55%. Last season, 2014/15, Brendan Rodgers’ Liverpool achieved an eerily similar tally of 22 out of 38 League games with a single goal or less (58%), and that's with a far leakier defence. This season, that run has only worsened. In 11 games in all competitions, his side only scored more than once on one occasion, at home to an Aston Villa side that’s already beginning to look doomed. A moment of Coutinho brilliance was required at Stoke, an offside goal at home to Bournemouth, penalties to see off Carlisle.

The visit to Wolves, already on their way down, in January of 2004 summed up Houllier’s struggles. Liverpool went in front through Cheyrou just before half-time, and then slowly but surely dropped deeper and deeper for the rest of the game until the only impediment for Wolves drawing level became the final whistle. Their equaliser on 89 minutes was every bit as predictable as every equaliser, from Bordeaux to Norwich to Carlisle to Sion to Everton, became during Liverpool’s recent run of results. For Brendan Rodgers, the change to three centre-backs last season perhaps showed flexibility and a willingness to adapt to changing circumstances (brought about by an abject failure of a summer transfer window) and it probably saved his job in the short-term, but in the longer term it transformed a circumspect idealism into a suffocating pragmatism that slowly strangled the life out of both his team and his reign, in effect jettisoning what he was good at to try his hand at mid-table-style water-treading that was neither his forte nor a suitable fit for a club with Champions League ambitions.

If there was a nadir of his time in charge, a rock-bottom, most people would probably justifiably point to Stoke City 6-1 Liverpool, while others would no doubt suggest the FA Cup semi-final surrender to Aston Villa a few weeks earlier. For me it was the visit of West Ham to Anfield earlier this season, for several reasons. For one thing, it contained the moment where his baffling preference of Dejan Lovren over Mamadou Sakho finally came home to roost, for another it stripped away all the optimism that had abounded since arguably the best half of football played at the Emirates Stadium by a Liverpool team in the previous game, a performance which in the intervening weeks has now sadly taken on the aspect of a metaphorical dying man lurching one last time to his feet before finally collapsing.

Mostly, though, it was the decision taken, with Liverpool 0-2 down at half-time, to replace midfielder Emre Can with left-back Alberto Moreno that was, for me, if not the lowest moment of his reign then certainly the saddest. This was Liverpool, chasing a two-goal deficit at home to a club which had not won at Anfield since the 1960’s, looking to do so with three stoppers at centre-back, two (albeit attacking) full-backs and a defensive midfield shield on the pitch. Even with Coutinho’s red card robbing the team of its creative fulcrum, no offensive change was made until Danny Ings’ introduction on 61 minutes, and even then that was at the expense of Roberto Firmino. Two goals behind at home and struggling to create anything, Liverpool’s first sacrifice of defensive numbers to push for a goal (Jordon Ibe for Joe Gomez) didn’t come until the 78th minute.

It was clear that his switches that day were about damage limitation and job salvation. This wasn’t a back three designed to propel the team forward with Sakho’s crisp passing and Can’s forays into midfield. This was a defensive three designed to prevent a disappointing loss turning into an embarrassment, the most adventurous of whom had fallen over doing step-overs in the opposition half and gifted West Ham a goal by trying to play football on the touchline in the first-half. This was what Brendan Rodgers had come to after the assorted pressures of managing Liverpool had finally told. And it suddenly seemed like an age had passed since champions Manchester City visited for his first Premier League game at Anfield back in August 2012 when, coming off the back of a chastening 0-3 loss at West Brom the previous week, Rodgers nonetheless set out against a team bulging with world-class talent to do what his Swansea side had done at Anfield the previous season, namely attack supposedly superior opposition regardless of reputation.

That was his strength and it wouldn’t surprise me in the least if he returns to that approach in the future and someday leaves Anfield again with a point or three for another team. I always admired his idealism and his application, and the business-speak that often seemed to be lifted straight out of a corporate handbook never bothered me like it did others. That was just window-dressing. I never saw him as some “David Brent” type like some did simply because he always struck me as being deadly serious when it came to the job. That job, of course, was “to dedicate my life to fight for this club and defend the great principles of Liverpool Football Club on and off the field”. That’s what he said upon his arrival at Anfield. I believed him then, I still believe him now. Nobody should ever think that he lacked for effort because he didn’t.

Brendan Rodgers did, in fact, dedicate himself to the club, and the only principles he ever discarded were his own. That latter point is the main reason he failed. Personally, I’ve never really had any particular ideological position on how Liverpool should play, how the “x’s and o’s” should line up or what the football served up should look like (within reason). I generally admire both imagination and pragmatism, and the most effective mix is normally somewhere in the middle. That was certainly the case during the 2013/14 season, where his team were unafraid to cede possession to the opposition in order to create space for the likes of Luis Suárez, Daniel Sturridge, Philippe Coutinho and Raheem Sterling as he briefly presided over the most effective counter-attacking team in Europe, never more dangerous than when the other team had the ball in the Liverpool half. 

That represented an acceptable compromise on his initial philosophy that “when you’ve got the ball 65, 70 per cent of the time it’s a football death for the other team…we’re not at that stage yet, but that’s what we’ll get to, it’s death by football”, acceptable in that the fruits of that compromise were incredibly sweet. Instead of trying to slowly suffocate opponents with possession of the ball, his most effective team, widely-held to be the most exciting Liverpool side since 1988, bludgeoned them with speed and movement. The results were often spectacular. Having two of the best centre-forwards in European football helped, of course, and the failure to adequately mitigate for their absence the following season set the scene for what followed, namely a bitterly disappointing campaign in 2014/15 and a complete (and, regrettably, final) abandonment of the manager’s principles by the end, publicly bemoaning his team going long to Christian Benteke, for example, but seemingly doing nothing to change it.

This isn’t a point about “defensive” football. Regardless of approach, the real trouble comes when a manager is not true to his own beliefs, whatever they may be. At Liverpool that terminal spiral of negativity that his team entered after Suárez left and Sturridge went down after three games of the 2014/15 proved to be his downfall. The signings clearly didn’t help either: he stated in May 2013 that “there is absolutely no way a player will come in here if I don't want him. I will always be the first person it comes to”. If that’s truly the case, then it’s fair to say that he left himself short-handed by the end, unable to trust the man he once dubbed “the Welsh Xavi” over Lucas Leiva, a fantastic servant to the club but one terminally past his best who looked to be on his way out of the club as recently as a few weeks ago, and the round hole left upfront by the departed Suárez beaten into a kind of distorted oblong via the square pegs of Mario Balotelli, Fabio Borini, Rickie Lambert and Raheem Sterling (Ings at least looked like he fits the style required, even if he understandably pales in comparison next to the Uruguayan).

When Houllier left in 2004, the club went out and head-hunted one of the best managers in Europe as his replacement. History appears to be repeating itself, so we can at least be grateful for that. And the new manager will not, contrary to the opinions of some, be taking over the worst Liverpool team in living memory. There is plenty of talent and youth in that squad, and Rodgers deserves plenty of credit for developing the likes of Coutinho, Jordan Henderson, Jon Flanagan, Jordon Ibe and Raheem Sterling, whose £50m transfer swelled the coffers after the manager found a way to get the best out of him in late-2013 (before that, many were willing to give up on the player). Most of all there’s that season, arguably the most fun it’s been to watch a Liverpool team in the best part of three decades. Good luck to him.
« Last Edit: October 7, 2015, 11:50:54 pm by E2K »
Twitter: @e2klassic
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Offline conman

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Re: Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Brendan's round table cheerio.
« Reply #95 on: October 7, 2015, 11:49:54 pm »
I was just about to turn this Puuter off, and then E2k posts a cracker. I'll put the kettle on.

Offline Harinder

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Re: Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Brendan's round table cheerio.
« Reply #96 on: October 7, 2015, 11:54:31 pm »
I was just about to turn this Puuter off, and then E2k posts a cracker. I'll put the kettle on.

He has a habit of doing that
Just clicked on the main board and my virus scanner came back with this

"When we visited this site, we found it exhibited one or more risky behaviors."


:lmao

Strip his knighthood https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/47770

Offline conman

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Re: Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Brendan's round table cheerio.
« Reply #97 on: October 7, 2015, 11:57:38 pm »
He has a habit of doing that
He sure does. Sort your your schedule before you go about posting any more belters E2k.

What a great post Eoin, again!

Offline Chakan

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Re: Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Brendan's round table cheerio.
« Reply #98 on: October 8, 2015, 12:04:09 am »
Just finished dinner now to read E2ks post.

Offline conman

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Re: Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Brendan's round table cheerio.
« Reply #99 on: October 8, 2015, 12:05:05 am »
Just finished dinner now to read E2ks post.
The fuck, are you Spanish or something? ;D

Offline rickardinho1

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Re: Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Brendan's round table cheerio.
« Reply #100 on: October 8, 2015, 12:24:11 am »
Great post E2k, enjoyed reading that!

Offline Chakan

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Re: Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Brendan's round table cheerio.
« Reply #101 on: October 8, 2015, 12:37:54 am »
The fuck, are you Spanish or something? ;D

Based in the US. 6:30/7pm

Offline steveeastend

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Re: Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Brendan's round table cheerio.
« Reply #102 on: October 8, 2015, 10:16:27 am »
So as it looks it will be Klopp then, overall still a good choice, a little bit of a risk but that's what you have to count in when changing a manager 7 games into season...

I expect a massive improvement in terms of basic tactical requirements. F.e. defending in triangles on the wing and stops those alibi crosses in the final third which drove me crazy when watching this chaos going on week in week out... hope those days are over and expecting Klopp to have a constant impact here.

I also hope he doesn't give in to the pressure from outside or within the club and follows his own ideas, and will be able to sign one or two top additions in winter. Reus..
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline conman

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Re: Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Brendan's round table cheerio.
« Reply #103 on: October 8, 2015, 10:22:59 am »
So as it looks it will be Klopp then, overall still a good choice, a little bit of a risk but that's what you have to count in when changing a manager 7 games into season...

I expect a massive improvement in terms of basic tactical requirements. F.e. defending in triangles on the wing and stops those alibi crosses in the final third which drove me crazy when watching this chaos going on week in week out... hope those days are over and expecting Klopp to have a constant impact here.

I also hope he doesn't give in to the pressure from outside or within the club and follows his own ideas, and will be able to sign one or two top additions in winter. Reus..

Reus.....mmmm

How about Gotse?
Considering he is not realising his potential at Bayern and Klopp hates to see players not realise their potential.

Offline JackWard33

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Re: Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Brendan's round table cheerio.
« Reply #104 on: October 8, 2015, 10:47:33 am »
Among the Klopp excitement I'm struck by the bloodless-ness of it all for FSG and the clubs executive

They get to tacitly blame the out going manager for recent failings and introduce a popular new manager to fanfare
At no point are Ayre or Gordon or FSG making themselves available for questioning or scruitny
Effectively Rodgers is blamed for everything anyone thinks has gone wrong

Offline conman

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Re: Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Brendan's round table cheerio.
« Reply #105 on: October 8, 2015, 10:57:05 am »
Among the Klopp excitement I'm struck by the bloodless-ness of it all for FSG and the clubs executive

They get to tacitly blame the out going manager for recent failings and introduce a popular new manager to fanfare
At no point are Ayre or Gordon or FSG making themselves available for questioning or scruitny
Effectively Rodgers is blamed for everything anyone thinks has gone wrong
Well i sincerely doubt Ayre or Gordon are scouting and training players. They have their other faults, but the majority of our failings fall on Rodgers door. A better time to reflect will be at the end of the season, so we can see how Klopp fares with the same set of lads.

Offline steveeastend

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Re: Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Brendan's round table cheerio.
« Reply #106 on: October 8, 2015, 10:58:19 am »
Reus.....mmmm

How about Gotse?
Considering he is not realising his potential at Bayern and Klopp hates to see players not realise their potential.

We cannt pay those sort of wages and we shouldn't for someone like Goetze...he's a little bit of a soft, money grabbing idiot..
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline conman

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Re: Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Brendan's round table cheerio.
« Reply #107 on: October 8, 2015, 11:00:31 am »
We cannt pay those sort of wages and we shouldn't for someone like Goetze...he's a little bit of a soft, money grabbing idiot..
Perhaps, though if he wanted out and wanted to play for Klopp, then it may be a different story.

Offline steveeastend

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Re: Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Brendan's round table cheerio.
« Reply #108 on: October 8, 2015, 11:01:31 am »
Among the Klopp excitement I'm struck by the bloodless-ness of it all for FSG and the clubs executive

They get to tacitly blame the out going manager for recent failings and introduce a popular new manager to fanfare
At no point are Ayre or Gordon or FSG making themselves available for questioning or scruitny
Effectively Rodgers is blamed for everything anyone thinks has gone wrong

I've never been a fan of Ayre as I think he was one of the people instrumental in the sacking of Rafa..

But at the moment, he has no say which players to sign and of coure nothing to do with the training and the way we perform. Besides that I think that the comitee, he might had a little bit of an influence, did a good job.

At the moment, I don't think you could blame him anything than being a overrated dandy..
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline steveeastend

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Re: Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Brendan's round table cheerio.
« Reply #109 on: October 8, 2015, 11:02:57 am »
Perhaps, though if he wanted out and wanted to play for Klopp, then it may be a different story.

He doesn't, he left Klopp long ago for the big buck..just as Lewandowski, the twat.

« Last Edit: October 8, 2015, 11:05:06 am by steveeastend »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline conman

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Re: Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Brendan's round table cheerio.
« Reply #110 on: October 8, 2015, 11:04:25 am »
He doesn't, he left Klopp long ago for the big buck..just as Lewandowski, the twat.
;D

Offline steveeastend

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Re: Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Brendan's round table cheerio.
« Reply #111 on: October 8, 2015, 11:05:21 am »
;D

From the current Dortmund squad I could only think of Reus, although that's highly unlikely as they are doing pretty good at the moment, or maybe Gundogan who seems to be attracted to other things than money as he refused to leave for a bigger wage a couple of times now.. maybe Hummels as well..
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline conman

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Re: Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Brendan's round table cheerio.
« Reply #112 on: October 8, 2015, 11:07:56 am »
From the current Dortmund squad I could only think of Reus, although that's highly unlikely as they are doing pretty good at the moment, or maybe Gundogan who seems to be attracted to other things than money as he refused to leave for a bigger wage a couple of times now.. maybe Hummels as well..
Hummels, isn't he another LCB? I think Subotic plays on the right.
What do you think about playing Lucas as RCB alongside Sahko?

Offline steveeastend

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Re: Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Brendan's round table cheerio.
« Reply #113 on: October 8, 2015, 11:11:37 am »
Hummels, isn't he another LCB? I think Subotic plays on the right.
What do you think about playing Lucas as RCB alongside Sahko?

I really don't think Lucas could play center back, I really don't.

To me, Lucas is one of the best holding midfielders around and I think he should play there as long as possible, don't get the critical view on him, never could.

I still think with Lucas in the team besides Gerrard we would have won the title.

But here's the thing though, can Klopp REALLY attract big stars? Even Germans ones? I don't think so, he will have to do the best with what the commitee will give him which is, on the other hand, IMO not a bad overall plan coming from the owners at this point.

It could work, especially if Klopp decides to give every player in the squad a chance to start from scratch, even Mario.
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline conman

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Re: Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Brendan's round table cheerio.
« Reply #114 on: October 8, 2015, 11:28:37 am »
I think klopp can and will attract German players and many other nationalities too.

He's going to need to offload a fair few players to balance this squad out. So the next two transfer windows will be interesting

Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Brendan's round table cheerio.
« Reply #115 on: October 8, 2015, 11:56:19 am »
As with Gérard Houllier back in 2004, I’m sad that it ended this way but the sadness is mitigated by a vague, guilty sense of relief (which, incidentally, has nothing to do with the identity of his probable successor). That’s not to excuse the culpability of the club’s executive management for their part in Liverpool’s struggles over the past eighteen months or the shitty manner in which they allegedly notified Brendan Rodgers that his services were no longer required, nor does it diminish the work done during his 3+ years at Anfield, much of which was positive. At the same time, and regardless of how uneasy it feels to see a Liverpool manager sacked after only three and a half years in the job (particularly one who almost achieved something incredible less than two seasons ago), it’s highly unlikely that you’ll ever climb out of a hole by digging and, as with Houllier in the closing weeks and months of the 2003/04 season, it had gotten to a point where even the wonderful memories of the past couldn’t adequately cover for the feeling that things were unlikely to get any better in the future.

The respective roads which led to the departures of both men were pretty similar too even if, on the face of it, they were very different in their approach. Houllier immediately made Liverpool defensively strong upon taking sole charge of the club, quickly bringing in the likes of Sami Hyypia, Markus Babbel, Stephane Henchoz, Didi Hamann and building from the back (he even once signed two goalkeepers on the same day), whereas one of Rodgers’ biggest failings was an inability (or was it unwillingness?) to make his team anything even approaching solid, much less frugal. Houllier also won trophies, although he never came as close to winning the League title as Rodgers did. All differences aside, the same three factors did for both their reigns: (1) the squad deteriorated on their watch, (2) the goals dried up and, most tellingly, (3) the pressure of the Liverpool job saw both retreat into a shell of negativity that not only suited neither them nor the club, but also rendered their teams unrecognisable from their respective peaks of a few seasons earlier.

Houllier’s best season (2000/01) saw over 120 goals scored across all competitions. Similarly, Brendan Rodgers’ best season saw over 100 goals scored, albeit at a far greater rate (2.6 per game vs. 2.0). At some point after these high points they stumbled as they attempted to replenish their squads. Misjudgements were made, the pressure heightened as a consequence. That pressure gave way to negativity, which proved to be a false economy. Houllier’s team scored a single goal or less in 21 of his last 38 League games in charge (the 2003/04 season, basically), or 55%. Last season, 2014/15, Brendan Rodgers’ Liverpool achieved an eerily similar tally of 22 out of 38 League games with a single goal or less (58%), and that's with a far leakier defence. This season, that run has only worsened. In 11 games in all competitions, his side only scored more than once on one occasion, at home to an Aston Villa side that’s already beginning to look doomed. A moment of Coutinho brilliance was required at Stoke, an offside goal at home to Bournemouth, penalties to see off Carlisle.

The visit to Wolves, already on their way down, in January of 2004 summed up Houllier’s struggles. Liverpool went in front through Cheyrou just before half-time, and then slowly but surely dropped deeper and deeper for the rest of the game until the only impediment for Wolves drawing level became the final whistle. Their equaliser on 89 minutes was every bit as predictable as every equaliser, from Bordeaux to Norwich to Carlisle to Sion to Everton, became during Liverpool’s recent run of results. For Brendan Rodgers, the change to three centre-backs last season perhaps showed flexibility and a willingness to adapt to changing circumstances (brought about by an abject failure of a summer transfer window) and it probably saved his job in the short-term, but in the longer term it transformed a circumspect idealism into a suffocating pragmatism that slowly strangled the life out of both his team and his reign, in effect jettisoning what he was good at to try his hand at mid-table-style water-treading that was neither his forte nor a suitable fit for a club with Champions League ambitions.

If there was a nadir of his time in charge, a rock-bottom, most people would probably justifiably point to Stoke City 6-1 Liverpool, while others would no doubt suggest the FA Cup semi-final surrender to Aston Villa a few weeks earlier. For me it was the visit of West Ham to Anfield earlier this season, for several reasons. For one thing, it contained the moment where his baffling preference of Dejan Lovren over Mamadou Sakho finally came home to roost, for another it stripped away all the optimism that had abounded since arguably the best half of football played at the Emirates Stadium by a Liverpool team in the previous game, a performance which in the intervening weeks has now sadly taken on the aspect of a metaphorical dying man lurching one last time to his feet before finally collapsing.

Mostly, though, it was the decision taken, with Liverpool 0-2 down at half-time, to replace midfielder Emre Can with left-back Alberto Moreno that was, for me, if not the lowest moment of his reign then certainly the saddest. This was Liverpool, chasing a two-goal deficit at home to a club which had not won at Anfield since the 1960’s, looking to do so with three stoppers at centre-back, two (albeit attacking) full-backs and a defensive midfield shield on the pitch. Even with Coutinho’s red card robbing the team of its creative fulcrum, no offensive change was made until Danny Ings’ introduction on 61 minutes, and even then that was at the expense of Roberto Firmino. Two goals behind at home and struggling to create anything, Liverpool’s first sacrifice of defensive numbers to push for a goal (Jordon Ibe for Joe Gomez) didn’t come until the 78th minute.

It was clear that his switches that day were about damage limitation and job salvation. This wasn’t a back three designed to propel the team forward with Sakho’s crisp passing and Can’s forays into midfield. This was a defensive three designed to prevent a disappointing loss turning into an embarrassment, the most adventurous of whom had fallen over doing step-overs in the opposition half and gifted West Ham a goal by trying to play football on the touchline in the first-half. This was what Brendan Rodgers had come to after the assorted pressures of managing Liverpool had finally told. And it suddenly seemed like an age had passed since champions Manchester City visited for his first Premier League game at Anfield back in August 2012 when, coming off the back of a chastening 0-3 loss at West Brom the previous week, Rodgers nonetheless set out against a team bulging with world-class talent to do what his Swansea side had done at Anfield the previous season, namely attack supposedly superior opposition regardless of reputation.

That was his strength and it wouldn’t surprise me in the least if he returns to that approach in the future and someday leaves Anfield again with a point or three for another team. I always admired his idealism and his application, and the business-speak that often seemed to be lifted straight out of a corporate handbook never bothered me like it did others. That was just window-dressing. I never saw him as some “David Brent” type like some did simply because he always struck me as being deadly serious when it came to the job. That job, of course, was “to dedicate my life to fight for this club and defend the great principles of Liverpool Football Club on and off the field”. That’s what he said upon his arrival at Anfield. I believed him then, I still believe him now. Nobody should ever think that he lacked for effort because he didn’t.

Brendan Rodgers did, in fact, dedicate himself to the club, and the only principles he ever discarded were his own. That latter point is the main reason he failed. Personally, I’ve never really had any particular ideological position on how Liverpool should play, how the “x’s and o’s” should line up or what the football served up should look like (within reason). I generally admire both imagination and pragmatism, and the most effective mix is normally somewhere in the middle. That was certainly the case during the 2013/14 season, where his team were unafraid to cede possession to the opposition in order to create space for the likes of Luis Suárez, Daniel Sturridge, Philippe Coutinho and Raheem Sterling as he briefly presided over the most effective counter-attacking team in Europe, never more dangerous than when the other team had the ball in the Liverpool half. 

That represented an acceptable compromise on his initial philosophy that “when you’ve got the ball 65, 70 per cent of the time it’s a football death for the other team…we’re not at that stage yet, but that’s what we’ll get to, it’s death by football”, acceptable in that the fruits of that compromise were incredibly sweet. Instead of trying to slowly suffocate opponents with possession of the ball, his most effective team, widely-held to be the most exciting Liverpool side since 1988, bludgeoned them with speed and movement. The results were often spectacular. Having two of the best centre-forwards in European football helped, of course, and the failure to adequately mitigate for their absence the following season set the scene for what followed, namely a bitterly disappointing campaign in 2014/15 and a complete (and, regrettably, final) abandonment of the manager’s principles by the end, publicly bemoaning his team going long to Christian Benteke, for example, but seemingly doing nothing to change it.

This isn’t a point about “defensive” football. Regardless of approach, the real trouble comes when a manager is not true to his own beliefs, whatever they may be. At Liverpool that terminal spiral of negativity that his team entered after Suárez left and Sturridge went down after three games of the 2014/15 proved to be his downfall. The signings clearly didn’t help either: he stated in May 2013 that “there is absolutely no way a player will come in here if I don't want him. I will always be the first person it comes to”. If that’s truly the case, then it’s fair to say that he left himself short-handed by the end, unable to trust the man he once dubbed “the Welsh Xavi” over Lucas Leiva, a fantastic servant to the club but one terminally past his best who looked to be on his way out of the club as recently as a few weeks ago, and the round hole left upfront by the departed Suárez beaten into a kind of distorted oblong via the square pegs of Mario Balotelli, Fabio Borini, Rickie Lambert and Raheem Sterling (Ings at least looked like he fits the style required, even if he understandably pales in comparison next to the Uruguayan).

When Houllier left in 2004, the club went out and head-hunted one of the best managers in Europe as his replacement. History appears to be repeating itself, so we can at least be grateful for that. And the new manager will not, contrary to the opinions of some, be taking over the worst Liverpool team in living memory. There is plenty of talent and youth in that squad, and Rodgers deserves plenty of credit for developing the likes of Coutinho, Jordan Henderson, Jon Flanagan, Jordon Ibe and Raheem Sterling, whose £50m transfer swelled the coffers after the manager found a way to get the best out of him in late-2013 (before that, many were willing to give up on the player). Most of all there’s that season, arguably the most fun it’s been to watch a Liverpool team in the best part of three decades. Good luck to him.


A truly terrific piece E2K. You've taken on the challenge of trying to make sense of the madness in all quarters and come out the other side with a real nugget. Well done.

Far too comprehensive a piece of insightful balanced writing to be confined just to this thread. Richly deserving of a thread of its own - which I think is something you should do with the blessing of the mods. Though I'm sure they'll only be too pleased to see the departure of the manager marked by a piece befitting of such a moment.

The fact you neither support nor condemn what has happened but have instead sought to draw the clear parallels with the Houllier demise lends a much needed perspective that most of us struggle to attain. Once again well done.

 :)

 

Offline Raul!

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Re: Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Brendan's round table cheerio.
« Reply #116 on: October 8, 2015, 12:05:46 pm »
A truly terrific piece E2K. You've taken on the challenge of trying to make sense of the madness in all quarters and come out the other side with a real nugget. Well done.

Far too comprehensive a piece of insightful balanced writing to be confined just to this thread. Richly deserving of a thread of its own - which I think is something you should do with the blessing of the mods. Though I'm sure they'll only be too pleased to see the departure of the manager marked by a piece befitting of such a moment.

The fact you neither support nor condemn what has happened but have instead sought to draw the clear parallels with the Houllier demise lends a much needed perspective that most of us struggle to attain. Once again well done.

 :)

 
Agree completely. Masterfully economical writing and excellent parallels drawn.

Now the hope that we rise under the new feller as we did under Rafa.

Offline JackWard33

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Re: Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Brendan's round table cheerio.
« Reply #117 on: October 8, 2015, 12:07:09 pm »
I've never been a fan of Ayre as I think he was one of the people instrumental in the sacking of Rafa..

But at the moment, he has no say which players to sign and of coure nothing to do with the training and the way we perform. Besides that I think that the comitee, he might had a little bit of an influence, did a good job.


They what now?!

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Re: Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Brendan's round table cheerio.
« Reply #118 on: October 8, 2015, 12:17:31 pm »
I haven't time to reply to E2K's post in detail but one point I will make is that Rodgers has left us with a stronger squad than he picked up. He also left us in a better league position each season than Kenny finished in the season previous.

I think key to getting the best from Klopp will be to get one of his scouts or DOF on board as he requires a specific type of player. We have quite a few of those type players in our squad thankfully but need to be more clinical and drilled in Klopps pressing and attacking philosophy.

If he can get us top 4 this season I'd expect us to kick on next season from there. Would be a lot more confident in Europe also under Klopp.
« Last Edit: October 8, 2015, 12:22:58 pm by ShayGuevara »
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Re: Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Brendan's round table cheerio.
« Reply #119 on: October 8, 2015, 12:21:08 pm »
I haven't time to reply to E2K's post in detail but one point I will make is that Rodgers has left us with a stronger squad than he picked up. He also left us in a better league position each season than Kenny finished in the season previous.

I think key to getting the best from Klopp will be to get one of his scouts or DOF on board as he requires a specific type of player. We have quite a few of those type players in our squad thankfully but need to be more clinical and drilled in Klopps pressing and attacking philosophy.

If he can get us top 4 this season I'd expect us to kick on next season from there. Would be a lot more confident in Europe also under Klopp.

We're not in a greater position league than before Rodgers came in and it's really the transfer committee who built a squad capable of pressing. Though, the squad is much better than before, i think it's pretty strong to be honest.