Topic: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance

[Air Jota]

I am not sure that is true though.

In the last 5 seasons in the League at the Etihad we have four draws and one defeat. The one defeat was last season when we basically didn't have a midfield. 

I think we look ponderous against City and Arsenal because the games are basically chess matches in which both teams are probing for weaknesses and neither side opens up.

All those games there, we have large periods where we struggle but the way the games go there are usually the same, we get penned in, and have problems playing at our best. But we usually have had great forwards with pace that help us get out and cause problems, which is why we got at least a point.  We didnt have Salah or Nunez fit for this last game and it was evident. When we made an adjustment in the 2nd half, we looked much better but we gifted them a goal and that was that

Both Arsenal and City are.capable of causing us the same problems and its why we struggle to start well against them.

[MonsLibpool]

All those games there, we have large periods where we struggle but the way the games go there are usually the same, we get penned in, and have problems playing at our best. But we usually have had great forwards with pace that help us get out and cause problems, which is why we got at least a point.  We didnt have Salah or Nunez fit for this last game and it was evident. When we made an adjustment in the 2nd half, we looked much better but we gifted them a goal and that was that

Both Arsenal and City are.capable of causing us the same problems and its why we struggle to start well against them.

The Arsenal game went okay. We rode the first half storm and we'd have normally gone on to win it. They weren't really a threat in the 2nd half.

[Eeyore]

All those games there, we have large periods where we struggle but the way the games go there are usually the same, we get penned in, and have problems playing at our best. But we usually have had great forwards with pace that help us get out and cause problems, which is why we got at least a point.  We didnt have Salah or Nunez fit for this last game and it was evident. When we made an adjustment in the 2nd half, we looked much better but we gifted them a goal and that was that

Both Arsenal and City are.capable of causing us the same problems and its why we struggle to start well against them.

Isn't it a case though of us conceding the midfield by having fewer players in there so that we do have more of an attacking threat?

For me, games between us and City and us and Arsenal are cat and mouse in which both teams are trying to get the opposition to empty the midfield so they can counter.

You say we struggled against Arsenal but we did create two very presentable chances early on with the one Jota miss-controlled and the chance Gakpo dragged wide. I think against City and Arsenal they are going to look easier on the eye but we still carry a threat.

[Air Jota]

Isn't it a case though of us conceding the midfield by having fewer players in there so that we do have more of an attacking threat?

For me, games between us and City and us and Arsenal are cat and mouse in which both teams are trying to get the opposition to empty the midfield so they can counter.

You say we struggled against Arsenal but we did create two very presentable chances early on with the one Jota miss-controlled and the chance Gakpo dragged wide. I think against City and Arsenal they are going to look easier on the eye but we still carry a threat.

Sure but our attacking threat was non existent against them compared to when we have Salah, Nunez on the pitch (or Mane in the past)

Against these two sides, you have to win your 1 on 1 battles more so than any other match ups, they press us well and we dont look good when we try to play out of that pressure when we dont have our proper outlet.

The second half was much better, we made an adjustment, but it was moot once we gifted them the 2nd goal. Otherwise things probably go differently.

I dont want to go in circles with what Im saying, my ultimate point our attitude wasnt the reason for us not playing well, when its a similar issue when we play them, in recent encounters.

[Caps4444]

I am not sure that is true though.

In the last 5 seasons in the League at the Etihad we have four draws and one defeat. The one defeat was last season when we basically didn't have a midfield. 

I think we look ponderous against City and Arsenal because the games are basically chess matches in which both teams are probing for weaknesses and neither side opens up.

Didn’t we lose in. 18/19 and. 19/20?

[BobPaisley3]

Had a thought today that City draw Arsenal in a two legged champions league quarter/semi final. Two brutal ties with injuries and fatigue galore.

[Caps4444]

Had a thought today that City draw Arsenal in a two legged champions league quarter/semi final. Two brutal ties with injuries and fatigue galore.

Would be best outcome for us.
Probably playing 3 times in 2 weeks.

[BobPaisley3]

Would be best outcome for us.
Probably playing 3 times in 2 weeks.

Yeah, champions league will definitely be a problem for those two somewhere along the line.

[Eeyore]

Didn’t we lose in. 18/19 and. 19/20?

Yeh, you are correct I was looking at a site that listed City as at home in the 2019 community shield.

Still decent though 3 draws and 1 defeat in the last 4 at the Etihad in the League.

[Caligula?]

I know fairytales don't happen but it would be amazing to win it. Seeing Jurgen lifting that trophy during our final game of the season and his final game for the club would be one of the most iconic moments ever for this football club and we've had so many.

But we're not going to do it playing like we did against Arsenal. Lazy, lethargic and uninterested. I can stomach not winning the title giving it our all like in 2018/19 and 2021/22 but as long as we go down with a fight.

[alonsoisared]

I don't think it's attitude or laziness with this group of players. They wouldn't last long under Jürgen if that was the case. We're just often slow starters. The flip side of that is that we're probably the best around at adapting to opponents and then growing into games, hence all the late goals. We've spent a lot of first halves hanging in there before tactical changes and substitutions have changed the game.

Against Arsenal I think we just got it wrong not starting Nunez, and on top of that we always find it difficult playing against an organised high press. That being said I thought we were much braver on the ball than in the first half of the cup match.

We then grew into it, as we tend to, and at 1-1 looked the better team at the start of the second half. The howler we gave away changed everything. Still, that's the two hardest fixtures of the season done and out of the way.

[Oh Jimmy Jimmy]

Before we play them at Anfield, City have four home games against Everton, Chelsea, Brentford and United, all of whom have taken points at the Etihad in recent seasons - mainly by sitting deep and hitting them fast on the counter. Their fifth game is Bournemouth away - a potential banana skin which we did well to avoid, thanks to the speed of our attacks and a Conor inspired performance.

Of course we need to win our next four before then, but we are playing  four of the bottom six and, apart from the Luton blip, have been on our game against the relegation contenders this season ( unlike last).

Our home record in front the Anfield crowd against City is immense - something like 5 wins and 2 draws in Pep’s time.

So, if City drop points before then and we win in one of those special Anfield City Sunday afternoons, then  having a 5 point margin with 10 games to go might be enough - we could even draw the games at United and Everton.

To use a political term, there is a plausible path to victory.

[Crosby Nick]

4 home games in their next 5?! Will that leave them with more always than homes by the times that’s done or is it just a case of things evening out? I know their game in hand is Brentford at home so that’s one of them.

[MonsLibpool]

Before we play them at Anfield, City have four home games against Everton, Chelsea, Brentford and United, all of whom have taken points at the Etihad in recent seasons - mainly by sitting deep and hitting them fast on the counter. Their fifth game is Bournemouth away - a potential banana skin which we did well to avoid, thanks to the speed of our attacks and a Conor inspired performance.

Of course we need to win our next four before then, but we are playing  four of the bottom six and, apart from the Luton blip, have been on our game against the relegation contenders this season ( unlike last).

Our home record in front the Anfield crowd against City is immense - something like 5 wins and 2 draws in Pep’s time.

So, if City drop points before then and we win in one of those special Anfield City Sunday afternoons, then  having a 5 point margin with 10 games to go might be enough - we could even draw the games at United and Everton.

To use a political term, there is a plausible path to victory.

We can't afford to draw a game until the title is secured. 5 points with 10 games to go is nothing these days.

[lionel_messias]

We can't afford to draw a game until the title is secured. 5 points with 10 games to go is nothing these days.

You might be right. We'll draw probably draw a game or two someone in this run, hopefully not in the next few weeks though. I guess we'd take a draw away at Villa Park.

[Fruity]

Think we definitely need to win the next 4 games. A win in the league cup as well and I think we will have the momentum needed.

[wah00ey]

Think we definitely need to win the next 4 games. A win in the league cup as well and I think we will have the momentum needed.

And not picking up any major / significant injuries in that timeframe...

[Nick110581]

We can't afford to draw a game until the title is secured. 5 points with 10 games to go is nothing these days.

No one knows that.

Let’s just take one match at a time. If you have a lead and draw a game then it can’t be treated as a disaster.

[MonsLibpool]

No one knows that.

Let’s just take one match at a time. If you have a lead and draw a game then it can’t be treated as a disaster.

That's why looking beyond the next game isn't really helpful. Realistically,  we have to be winning almost all our games until it's secured because any dropped points would encourage Man City.

Draws cost Arsenal the title last season when they were in a favourable position with ten games to go so we already know. You can't relax and be happy with any draw.

[Kashinoda]

4 home games in their next 5?! Will that leave them with more always than homes by the times that’s done or is it just a case of things evening out? I know their game in hand is Brentford at home so that’s one of them.

Just evening out.

After they play us they have 5 home and 5 away.

[Redley]

That's why looking beyond the next game isn't really helpful. Realistically,  we have to be winning almost all our games until it's secured because any dropped points would encourage Man City.

Draws cost Arsenal the title last season so we already know.

You could point to quite a few things. Two batterings against Abu Dhabi definitely didn't help. Just a draw in one of them would have made things a lot tighter in the last 2/3 games of the season, and a win would have been massive.

[MonsLibpool]

You could point to quite a few things. Two batterings against Abu Dhabi definitely didn't help. Just a draw in one of them would have made things a lot tighter in the last 2/3 games of the season, and a win would have been massive.

They lost it before that game by drawing against us, West ham and Soton. Win those games and they win the league. One draw can ramp up the pressure on us in the run-in.

We just need to accept that a crazy winning run is required but that's what cheating has created. Losing 1 game and winning the other is better than 2 draws.

[Redley]

They lost it before that game by drawing against us and West ham. One draw can ramp up the pressure on us in the run-in.

We just need to accept that a crazy winning run is required but that's what cheating has created.

They were still top after those games. If they'd beaten them at the Etihad they'd have been on 78 points with 5 games left and Abi Dhabi would have had 70 points with two games in hand and on paper a tougher run (as well as CL and FA Cup games). When its tight with them, you've got to do your bit to take points off them. They'll drop other points but there's no point moaning about them being unstoppable if you also don't take points off them when you can.

[MonsLibpool]

They were still top after those games. If they'd beaten them at the Etihad they'd have been on 78 points with 5 games left and Abi Dhabi would have had 70 points with two games in hand and on paper a tougher run (as well as CL and FA Cup games). When its tight with them, you've got to do your bit to take points off them. They'll drop other points but there's no point moaning about them being unstoppable if you also don't take points off them when you can.

The point is that drawing three games before they met City effectively cost them the title because of the momentum shift. If they'd won those 3 winnable games, they could have afforded to lose against City.

In 18/19, drawing against United and Everton away cost us the title. It sound like madness because those are normally decent result but that's the situation now.

You must win and win and win to demoralize them.

[lionel_messias]

They were still top after those games. If they'd beaten them at the Etihad they'd have been on 78 points with 5 games left and Abi Dhabi would have had 70 points with two games in hand and on paper a tougher run (as well as CL and FA Cup games). When its tight with them, you've got to do your bit to take points off them. They'll drop other points but there's no point moaning about them being unstoppable if you also don't take points off them when you can.

We have to stay right in it until the Champions League puts the pressure on for them. You right it is often draws that cost us dear. Mo Salah and Darwin, those two lads, with Jota----fire us home boys.

[Redley]

The point is that drawing three games before they met City effectively cost them the title because of the momentum shift. If they'd won those 3 winnable games, they could have afforded to lose against City.

In 18/19, drawing against United and Everton away cost us the title. It sound like madness because those are normally decent result but that's the situation now.

You must win and win and win to demoralize them.

You're saying one set of dropped points doesn't cost a team the title, but other dropped points do. If we'd beaten Abu Dhabi at Anfield, or drawn with them at the Etihad, we'd have won the title (in theory) in 18/19. The best way to keep it in our own hands is to be the ones to take points off them.

[MonsLibpool]

You're saying one set of dropped points doesn't cost a team the title, but other dropped points do. If we'd beaten Abu Dhabi at Anfield, or drawn with them at the Etihad, we'd have won the title (in theory) in 18/19. The best way to keep it in our own hands is to be the ones to take points off them.

No. I'm saying that you can't be accepting draws when the title is still on the line because draws encourage Man City.

So the assumption that we can "afford" to draw if we go 5 points clear is not true. In Arsenal's case, winning those games before they met would have had a massive impact on their confidence.

Draws are simply not good enough in this scenario and people need to accept it. Every single game is like a final, a must-win. It's not that difficult as experience has proven it to be true.

[Nick110581]

No. I'm saying that you can't be accepting draws when the title is still on the line because draws encourage Man City.

So the assumption that we can "afford" to draw if we go 5 points clear is not true. In Arsenal's case, winning those games before they met would have had a massive impact on their confidence.

Draws are simply not good enough in this scenario and people need to accept it. Every single game is like a final, a must-win. It's not that difficult as experience has proven it to be true.

This seems so intense though. It’s not healthy for a squad to think like that and I doubt Klopp is even thinking like that.

We have experience of a title race and still have 15 matches to play.

Europe will play a part for Arsenal and City too.

[MonsLibpool]

This seems so intense though. It’s not healthy for a squad to think like that and I doubt Klopp is even thinking like that.

We have experience of a title race and still have 15 matches to play.

Europe will play a part for Arsenal and City too.

Cheating has led to this situation whether or not we choose to think like that. That's why I don't see the point of looking too far ahead.

[Redley]

No. I'm saying that you can't be accepting draws when the title is still on the line because draws encourage Man City.

So the assumption that we can "afford" to draw if we go 5 points clear is not true. In Arsenal's case, winning those games before they met would have had a massive impact on their confidence.

Draws are simply not good enough in this scenario and people need to accept it. Every single game is like a final, a must-win. It's not that difficult as experience has proven it to be true.

...as would beating them.

Bottom line is you need them playing catch up, and failing. Both things are true, but the likelihood is we'll drop points at some point and so will they. I just hope we dont lose our shit if we do draw a game before we play them and they dont, because after they play us I'd say like 8/10 of their games look like the sort of one which could end up being a bananaskin.

Their form was ropey when they went to Arsenal last season. You've got to take your chance when you play them. The two tight challenges where we lost out, we didnt beat them at Anfield. The season we won the league, we did. Its a six point swing. And again....we're going to drop points. Whether you shit your kecks when it happens is up to you, but we're not winning 15 games in a row.

[Kashinoda]

Like us, City only have a solitary win against any of the top 6 at the moment.

[phil236849]

No sign of Joe Gomez in training pics?

[MonsLibpool]

...as would beating them.

Bottom line is you need them playing catch up, and failing. Both things are true, but the likelihood is we'll drop points at some point and so will they. I just hope we dont lose our shit if we do draw a game before we play them and they dont, because after they play us I'd say like 8/10 of their games look like the sort of one which could end up being a bananaskin.

Their form was ropey when they went to Arsenal last season. You've got to take your chance when you play them. The two tight challenges where we lost out, we didnt beat them at Anfield. The season we won the league, we did. Its a six point swing. And again....we're going to drop points. Whether you shit your kecks when it happens is up to you, but we're not winning 15 games in a row.

You shit your keks by overanalyzing it. One game at a time.

[Redley]

You shit your keks by overanalyzing it. One game at a time.

Gotcha. One game at a time...but any draw is a disaster

[nerdster4]

Not engaging with this thread unless we’re in with a shout week 34. City play Spurs away . Given previous events I am going to concentrate my hopes on the 3 other competitions

[MonsLibpool]

Gotcha. One game at a time...but any draw is a disaster

One game at a time. Simple.

[alonsoisared]

No unexpected changes this weekend then, other than Arsenal closing the gap in terms of goal difference. Perhaps more importantly, their tails look up after beating us. I've still been seeing it as a two horse race but that's a very impressive result today.

[stonecold_jpm]

Well if Arsenal win there next 4 before we play City and City win their games as well, then they both would be ahead of us and we’ll be 3rd heading into it if I’m not mistaken. So it very much is a 3-way title race now.

[The Test]

Arsenal improving can be seen as a positive in a way since they're still to play City. A draw in that match would be really handy. Thats a while away though.

[BobPaisley3]

Arsenal improving can be seen as a positive in a way since they're still to play City. A draw in that match would be really handy. Thats a while away though.

Said before but they’re going to meet in the champions league too. 3 meetings in a couple of weeks. Brutal!