Topic: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?

[Gnurglan]

I'm a bit late to this conversation, but... with recent reports that there are many thousands of foreign relatives of ISIS militants in detention in Syria http://u.afp.com/Jqxo ...

I'm really worried about this

Really.

I hope the people that make the key decisions here have some good plans.

I can't think of a modern scenario anything like this. Maybe the end of WW1 where the defeated parties never accepted defeat. That led to the worst disaster in human history in WW2.

At least post WW2 the German people by and large were ashamed of the atrocities performed in their name, and even Nazi's retreated.

I don't see that happening here, I see these folks are proud of the atrocities and likely to continue to commit barbaric acts against humanity for the rest of their lives.

This was an ideological movement, rather than a nationalist or conscript. People went from over the world to do this. They're not going to suddenly lose that ideology just because some of the militants have been defeated.

What to do

What to do?
You find the people responsible, put them on trial and give them the punishment they deserve for genocide, rape, torture, terrorism, ethnic cleansing etc. Judge them the same way we judged Nazis in Nürnberg. I can't remember how it was handled, but we have the blueprint for it.
Then you have the large group of those who followed orders. Same thing. We know what to do.
Then there will be those who had no choice. I can have some sympathy for those people. That said, I believe most people went there to start some sort of new life. So stay in the area. Don't come back. Find your new life in Saudiarabia. They should have what these people seek and Saudi should welcome them since they supported Daesh. Let them deal with it.

I understand there are international laws and we should follow them. I don't know what that means, but we have to follow them. That said, it feels wrong that we should accept people back who have actively decided to take part in a well-known terrorist organization, just because they lost. Had they won, does anyone think they would have wanted to come back? They picked their side and now they should face the consequences. We should look for opportunities in the law to punish these people. We owe that to all the people they killed. And we owe it to coming generations. We saw all this shit on tv and youtube. They are the Nazis of our generation. We knew what went on and what did we do? That's what the next generations will ask us.

[Kenny's Jacket]

You really are quite childish over this matter Kenny "take my ball home" WTF!  that would be after having the massive patience to try to explain to you on oh so many posts why Javed's actions were wrong and possibly contributed to not safeguarding a child who was also a British citizen by refusing entry for her motherso ergo baby as well.

Sorry i credited you with some commonsense, i wont be making that mistake again, but just for the hell of it.

 Picking her up as you say would be in the realms of the diplomatic core, if the press and medical teams can get in i am dam sure somebody pretty low down the pecking order in the diplomatic service or foreign office could have collected her. You really didn't need the SAS or 007 for this job.

You see collecting her and the vulnerable baby comes under foreign office if anyone and not home office, the home office deals with home affairs mainly and the security of the UK the clue is in his job title unless of course you think MI 5-6 should have got the job.

My agenda from the start was and still is Javed was/is playing political games to score points for his future leadership bid and using one still young girl to do this, do you think he is morally correct now and then to actually break international law?
 
He is the guy who needs to uphold laws not bend or break them to suit his agenda.

As for the girl for the umpteenth time she needs to be allowed in she is still a British subject she then needs due process of law and psychiatric help before ever being allowed out into the community again.

So you made claims earlier in this that the Camp was dangerous and there will be lots of ISIS people there, but you want people to go out there way to help and go to a camp full of murders. If the baby was still alive there might be an argument for collecting the baby, but then what do you do with the terror loving mother?  2 straight choices. 1 Leave her there. 2 pick her up. Option 1 causes all sorts of concerns especially as it’s difficult to separate mother from child. 2.  So you want to send a message that if you join ISIS the British government will offer you a bespoke taxi service. No thanks Geoff

Javid should not have revoked citizenship, but if this woman made it back they would have no choice but to let her in. Javid doesn’t have this baby’s death on her hands, the parents do. All 3 of them.

The government are not in the habit of giving people a free lift except exceptional circumstances. Rescuing terrorists probably isn’t one of those circumstances, not should it be.

[The Gulleysucker]

Connected to this,  an article in this weeks PE ... http://www.private-eye.co.uk/news

[OneTouchFooty]

What to do?
You find the people responsible, put them on trial and give them the punishment they deserve for genocide, rape, torture, terrorism, ethnic cleansing etc. Judge them the same way we judged Nazis in Nürnberg. I can't remember how it was handled, but we have the blueprint for it.
Then you have the large group of those who followed orders. Same thing. We know what to do.
Then there will be those who had no choice. I can have some sympathy for those people. That said, I believe most people went there to start some sort of new life. So stay in the area. Don't come back. Find your new life in Saudiarabia. They should have what these people seek and Saudi should welcome them since they supported Daesh. Let them deal with it.

I understand there are international laws and we should follow them. I don't know what that means, but we have to follow them. That said, it feels wrong that we should accept people back who have actively decided to take part in a well-known terrorist organization, just because they lost. Had they won, does anyone think they would have wanted to come back? They picked their side and now they should face the consequences. We should look for opportunities in the law to punish these people. We owe that to all the people they killed. And we owe it to coming generations. We saw all this shit on tv and youtube. They are the Nazis of our generation. We knew what went on and what did we do? That's what the next generations will ask us.

Why should the Syrian people have to deal with thousands of jihadis who invaded their lands, who have raped and murdered their own people? Syria has been decimated and we expect them to process, put to trial and house these monsters that came from various parts of Europe and the Middle East? That’s the point of international law and it’s framework, it’s adhered to no matter the issue, start flouting the rules and behaving like Trump in deciding what rules you’ll obey is how the whole thing breaks down.

[J_Kopite]

German Woman Goes on Trial in Death of 5-Year-Old Girl Held as ISIS Slave

https://t.co/omqkSuRuUD

[bahrainexpat]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/shamima-begum-isis-syria-morality-police-suicide-belts-a8869016.html

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Shamima Begum: IS bride 'given legal aid' for citizenship fight


Legal aid has been granted for Shamima Begum - who joined the Islamic State group aged 15 - to fight the decision to revoke her UK citizenship.

The 19-year-old, who left east London in 2015, was stripped of her citizenship in February, after she was found in a Syrian refugee camp.

Her family has previously said it planned to challenge the decision.

Foreign Secretary Jeremy C*nt said the Legal Aid Agency's decision to assist Ms Begum made him "very uncomfortable".

He added, however, that the UK was "a country that believes that people with limited means should have access to the resources of the state if they want to challenge the decisions the state has made about them".

Legal aid is financial assistance provided by the taxpayer to those unable to afford legal representation themselves, whether they are accused of a crime or a victim who seeks the help of a lawyer through the court process.

It is means-tested and availability has been cut back significantly in recent years in England and Wales.

Civil servants at the Legal Aid Agency, which is part of the Ministry of Justice, are responsible for making decisions about who receives legal aid.

The legal aid that has been granted covers a case before the semi-secret Special Immigration Appeals Commission, which adjudicates on cases where the home secretary has stripped someone of their nationality on grounds of national security.

Cases before the Special Immigration Appeals Commission (Siac) are among the most complicated legal challenges that the government can face.

This is because they typically involve a complex combination of MI5 intelligence reports, which cannot be disclosed to the complainant, and long-standing law on achieving a fair hearing.

It is not yet clear when the case will be heard but the Siac process can take years to complete - and granting of legal aid in these circumstances is not unusual.

Over the last decade or so there have been many other people stripped of nationality on the basis they are linked to terrorism who have been legally-aided during the SIAC process.

Ms Begum left the UK in February 2015 alongside fellow Bethnal Green Academy pupils 15-year-old Amira Abase and 16-year-old Kadiza Sultana.

Ms Begum was found in a Syrian refugee camp in February 2019 and said she wanted to return home.

Soon afterwards, she gave birth to a boy called Jarrah. He died of pneumonia in March at less than three weeks of age. She had two other children who also died.

In the wake of the boy's death, Home Secretary Sajid Javid was criticised over the decision to strip Ms Begum of her British citizenship.

Three weeks prior to the death, Ms Begum's sister, Renu Begum, had written to Mr Javid asking him to help her bring the baby to the UK.

On Monday, the Daily Mail first reported that legal aid had been granted in response to an application made on 19 March.

Mr Javid said the granting of legal aid was a decision for legal aid organisations and it was "not for ministers to comment".

Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn argued Ms Begum had the right to apply for legal aid.

"She is a British citizen," he said. "She's therefore entitled to apply for legal aid if she has a legal problem just like anybody else is."

He added: "The whole point of legal aid is that if you're facing a prosecution then you're entitled to be represented and that's a fundamental rule of law, a fundamental point in any democratic society."

'Not a political decision'

Dal Babu, a former chief superintendent in the Metropolitan Police and a friend of the family, said Ms Begum should have legal aid to make sure the correct process is followed.

He told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "I think legal aid is a principle of the British legal justice system."

Under the 1981 British Nationality Act, a person can be deprived of their citizenship if the home secretary is satisfied it would be "conducive to the public good" and they would not become stateless as a result.

It was thought Ms Begum had Bangladeshi citizenship through her mother - although Bangladesh's ministry of foreign affairs said she had been "erroneously identified" as a Bangladeshi national.

Human rights group Liberty said granting legal aid in this case was "not just appropriate but absolutely necessary to ensure that the government's decisions are properly scrutinised".

[/quote]


Just a shame that Javid acting like he sets the laws of the land didn't make Hunt uncomfortable.


Stupid twat has cost the country millions of pounds just because he is thinking about running for leadership of the Cons.

[Kenny's Jacket]

Just a shame that Javid acting like he sets the laws of the land didn't make Hunt uncomfortable.


Stupid twat has cost the country millions of pounds just because he is thinking about running for leadership of the Cons.

So this terrible human feels uncomfortable by one of the facets of this country, justice for all.  Maybe justice should be only for the rich.   

[Iska]

Idiots pretending to be outraged by this.  It’s difficult stuff, of course it’s got to have a proper argument, and it’s not like she’s in a position to pay for it herself.  Nearly all such cases will be on legal aid anyway, so it’s not even like it’s an unusual thing.

[sms1986]

Idiots pretending to be outraged by this.  It’s difficult stuff, of course it’s got to have a proper argument, and it’s not like she’s in a position to pay for it herself.  Nearly all such cases will be on legal aid anyway, so it’s not even like it’s an unusual thing.

Yeah, she has a right to legal aid just like every other citizen.

[Iska]

Yeah, she has a right to legal aid just like every other citizen.

Not just citizens, it’s totally routine for non-citizens to get legal aid.  I’ve even seen it given to non-citizens who aren’t in the UK and have never even been to the UK as well.  Plus there’s an obvious public interest for us all in making sure this is argued properly.  It’s dishonest to make like this is any way controversial.

[TepidT2O]

Yeah, she has a right to legal aid just like every other citizen.

Correct.

People may or may not be right to dislike her.

It’s irrelevant.

Everyone deserves fair representation. Why should she be different?

[Kenny's Jacket]

Not just citizens, it’s totally routine for non-citizens to get legal aid.  I’ve even seen it given to non-citizens who aren’t in the UK and have never even been to the UK as well. 

Off topic, but how, if a person has never even been here.  Just curious. 

[Iska]

Off topic, but how, if a person has never even been here.  Just curious.

Challenging a decision to refuse to grant entry clearance.

[Kenny's Jacket]

Challenging a decision to refuse to grant entry clearance.

OK thanks

[jason67]

Yeah, she has a right to legal aid just like every other citizen.

Correct.
And when she comes back she should get a flat, after all she has been a traumatic experience thorough no fault of her own.

[OneTouchFooty]

Correct.
And when she comes back she should get a flat, after all she has been a traumatic experience thorough no fault of her own.

Yes, we should definitely deny legal representation to nasty people we don’t like.

[Iska]

Yes, we should definitely deny legal representation to nasty people we don’t like.

Haha well quite.  Just wait until they find out where the money for the entire criminal defence system comes from.

[OneTouchFooty]

Haha well quite.  Just wait until they find out where the money for the entire criminal defence system comes from.

It’s one of the fundamental hallmarks of a functioning democracy and legal system that everyone is entitled to a fair trial regardless of their crime or financial position and are treated as equals under the eyes of the law.

This myopic, brainless populism that seems to be coursing through the veins of the country at this moment is frightening, people seemingly looking at the judicial process in places like Saudi Arabia, N. Korea & Turkey with envy at their “no nonsense attitude to criminals”.

[Rush 82]

It’s one of the fundamental hallmark of a functioning democracy and legal system that everyone is entitled to a fair trial regardless of their crime or financial position and are treated as equals under the eyes of the law.

This myopic, brainless populism that seems to be coursing through the veins of the country at this moment is frightening, people seemingly looking at the judicial process in places like Saudi Arabia, N. Korea & Turkey with envy at their “no nonsense attitude to criminals”.

Very true.

[Zeb]

Thought this was good on it from 'The Secret Barrister': https://thesecretbarrister.com/2019/04/15/shamima-begum-may-not-deserve-your-sympathy-but-she-is-entitled-to-legal-aid/

Legal aid has been hammered over the past decade making it harder for people to be able to get a hearing when the state makes decisions which affect them.

The scandal is not that Shamima Begum is eligible for legal aid in complex legal proceedings carrying life-changing consequences, but that so many other people have had legal aid refused and removed as part of the appalling attacks on legal aid that successive governments have wrought. It is not party political – all three main parties in government have fed the lies about legal aid to the press and public that have purchased political cover for them to obliterate legal aid and prevent ordinary people from accessing justice. In the 1980s, 79 per cent of the population was eligible for legal aid. By 2015, this had plummeted to 25 per cent. Public anger should be directed at the politicians who have convinced us that cutting legal aid is a good thing, not the few people who are still able to access justice.

Shouldn't be on families to beg for help to cover costs of legal advice for things like inquests. Nor should it be on this woman to try and crowdfund asking judges whether the home secretary has acted lawfully in removing her citizenship.

[Rush 82]

Everything being said, I don't feel a shred of sympathy for her 'struggles'

["21C or 70F?" SchizoidWeatherMan!]

Everything being said, I don't feel a shred of sympathy for her 'struggles'

Consider her trials and tribulations. Forced to leave behind the comforts of her home country and live in penury in a war torn nation by evil brainwashers. And to top it off, she was made to see beheading videos and other violent actions by her brainwashers and desensitized

[Devon Red]

Everything being said, I don't feel a shred of sympathy for her 'struggles'

No one needs to feel sympathy for her, just to accept that she is entitled to the same legal due process as anyone else.

[Devon Red]

Everything being said, I don't feel a shred of sympathy for her 'struggles'

No one needs to feel sympathy for her, just to accept that she is entitled to the same legal due process as anyone else.

[vagabond]

Lost the first stage of her appeal.

I always thought that the fact I was born in Britain made that part of my identity non-negotiable. Now it seems that that the British govt thinks otherwise if your parents are from elsewhere. Thanks for making us non-white British folk feel like second-class citizens.

[GreatEx]

Lost the first stage of her appeal.

I always thought that the fact I was born in Britain made that part of my identity non-negotiable. Now it seems that that the British govt thinks otherwise if your parents are from elsewhere. Thanks for making us non-white British folk feel like second-class citizens.

Welcome to the new decade, even better than the last decade.

[Kenny's Jacket]

I have no time or sympathy for this woman,  but this is good news that she can come back and figh her case.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53427197

[Iska]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53427197

That link says ”if the government wants to avoid the enormous embarrassment of sending a jet to pick her up, it has a matter of weeks to convince the Supreme Court to review the case”, but I’ve read the decision and afaict it doesn’t say that at all.  It just says she’s to be granted leave to enter.  No suggestion she should do anything but make her own way back.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

I have no time or sympathy for this woman,  but this is good news that she can come back and figh her case.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53427197

That woman was a child when she left.

[Red Beret]

That woman was a child when she left.

Now that I know more about her I agree.  She needs to come home. Face trial yes, but here in the UK.

[Robinred]

Now that I know more about her I agree.  She needs to come home. Face trial yes, but here in the UK.

Apropos of which, did anyone watch tonight’s ITV documentary: ‘Tareena: return from Isis’?

Her story was different in many regards from Begum’s, and she was less than forthcoming in some interviews. Nonetheless a fascinating glimpse into the circumstances of a British woman who got caught up in the Isis story.

[Kenny's Jacket]

Apropos of which, did anyone watch tonight’s ITV documentary: ‘Tareena: return from Isis’?

Her story was different in many regards from Begum’s, and she was less than forthcoming in some interviews. Nonetheless a fascinating glimpse into the circumstances of a British woman who got caught up in the Isis story.

Yes watched that too, why are they Treating Begum differently it makes no sense

theyre both British

[stewil007]

Yes watched that too, why are they Treating Begum differently it makes no sense

theyre both British

Social Media?  I've never heard of Tareena

[Sangria]

Apropos of which, did anyone watch tonight’s ITV documentary: ‘Tareena: return from Isis’?

Her story was different in many regards from Begum’s, and she was less than forthcoming in some interviews. Nonetheless a fascinating glimpse into the circumstances of a British woman who got caught up in the Isis story.

Didn't see the documentary, but an article/interview Yahoo flagged up says that she doesn't think Begum should be allowed back, as the latter didn't want to return until after IS had ended, whereas she (Tareena) wanted back at the height of IS. Tareena doesn't seem to have much of a problem with the negative judgement people have of her decision to join IS either, and seems to share it wholeheartedly.

In her first interview since being released from prison, Shakil said she regretted her actions, but added: "I was far from the best version of myself."

Asked what should happen to other British Isil volunteers, such as Shamima Begum, who is now appealing to return to the UK, Shakil expressed reservations about allowing her to do so.

Speaking on an ITV documentary, Tareena: Return from ISIS, she said: "I can't sit here and say – no don't bring them back – because that makes me a hypocrite, because I've been in a very similar situation."

But she added: "It's not the same situation because I escaped, chose to leave when ISIS were at their peak, as opposed to waiting for the fall of ISIS and then saying: I want to come home."

Shakil went on: "Having said that, there may be reasons that these people didn't escape from there. I know that. It takes strength, it takes courage, like it’s life and death, not everybody has it in them to go for that."

Begum, who left the UK aged 15 and joined Isil, married a jihadist fighter and had three children, all of whom died.

She is currently being held in a detention centre in north east Syria and is challenging the Government's decision to revoke her British citizenship .

Shakil and Begum are among around 900 British nationals who travelled to Syria to join or fight for Isil, including dozens of so-called "Jihadi brides".

‘I was aware of ISIS violence’
Shakil admitted she had been aware of the brutal executions being carried out by Isil fighters before she decided to travel there with her one-year-old son and acknowledges she made a terrible mistake.

"I was aware of violence that had taken place at the hands of ISIS, you know I can’t lie and say that I didn’t because it was everywhere," she said.

"Being aware of horrific things that were happening in that place and still deciding to run away, not just on your own, with your child.

"It’s not something that I’m happy about now looking back, but at the time the only thing I can say is that you know, I was far from the best version of myself," she added.

[Robinred]

Didn't see the documentary, but an article/interview Yahoo flagged up says that she doesn't think Begum should be allowed back, as the latter didn't want to return until after IS had ended, whereas she (Tareena) wanted back at the height of IS. Tareena doesn't seem to have much of a problem with the negative judgement people have of her decision to join IS either, and seems to share it wholeheartedly.

If you get a chance, it’s worth watching.

The interviewer pulls no punches, and Tareena often appears evasive. Overall she doesn’t do much to evoke any sympathy, and does little to elicit any genuine understanding or empathy.

[Nobby Reserve]

There was one girl from Begum's school who went to Syria a few months before, and Begum was joined by two schoolfriends on her journey.

The other three are all believed to be dead, but nobody can be 100% sure, and Begum believes one of her friends is still alive in some IS enclave. Most of their shitbag, paedophilic 'husbands' are dead, and probably all of the children the teenagers bore are dead (Begum's three definitely are)

Beyond the repulsion to Begum and the other girls/young women who went off to Syria to join IS, there is a heartbreaking human tragedy; not least for the families of these girls.

I do think the decision to revoke her citizenship was wrong. It was dogwhistle pandering to the right-wing populists that were swinging behind the Tories since 2016. She should be allowed back to the UK and face trial and imprisonment here.

[thejbs]

Shameful ruling on this today.

As a country, we allow rapists and murderers a chance to reform, but strip citizenship from a vulnerable woman who was groomed by religious fanatics as a child.

[Machae]

Shameful ruling on this today.

As a country, we allow rapists and murderers a chance to reform, but strip citizenship from a vulnerable woman who was groomed by religious fanatics as a child.

It's a racist policy, wouldn't happen if she was white. The fact that her parents are immigrants even though she's British born and bred means they are 'justified' in removing her citizenship. Bangladesh have already rejected her so she's stateless

Bring her home and let her go through the justice system and mete out whatever punishment that comes with it

[TepidT2O]

Shameful ruling on this today.

As a country, we allow rapists and murderers a chance to reform, but strip citizenship from a vulnerable woman who was groomed by religious fanatics as a child.

I suppose there’s a difference between the legality and the morality….

It seems to be within the law, as such the ruling want shameful or otherwise, just deemed legal.
The shameful but it’s the politicians promoting this.
Begun is a problem that emanated from the UK, by washing our hands of her we are shirking our responsibilities.

And as you say, reform is possible, she was radicalised and may be a threat as a result… but to ignore even the possibility of redemption is…hideous