Topic: FSG (*)

[Purple Red]

For me they were employed to deflect the attention away from FSG's background as largely being Hedge fund managers. To portray them as just honest to goodness sports fans who just happened to be lucky enough to do what all fans would do and own a team.

For me that is a deliberate attempt to deceive the fans because even their biggest admirers now continually use the 'just business men' get out of jail card time and time again.

They portrayed themselves as fans who desperately wanted to build up lines of communications with their fellow fans. Another deception. Day by day it becomes clearer and clearer that they don't see us as fans but consumers whose only role is to have their affinity for the Club leveraged.

There is now transparency no open lines of communications just Mandelsonesque levels of Spin and PR sound bites. They employ a PR company to spin their way into the fans loyalty and affinity for the Club and then posters wonder why people question their motives and their actions.

You may well be right that they employed the PR firm to deflect attention from the fact they're not football men. You may also be right that their interest in the fans finishes at how economically productive they are for the business. Again though it's speculation. I would doubt that they hold any fan's 'loyalty and affinity' as well. The majority of fans aren't concerned with the day to day running of the club at boardroom level and are content with the money available to Klopp and the stadium redevelopment. The fact remains that there is no such thing as a perfect owner. Too many have an idealistic notion in their head of a diehard Kopite in charge who will just pour money into the club without question. In fact, I would be worried if the owners didn't consider strategies of raising revenue which includes fans. Business owners try and raise money that's the sad reality. I don't think they should be allowed to get away with murder - I agreed with the walkout over ticket prices - but to argue endlessly about some interest payment which we don't have all the facts on is just driving ourselves up the wall for the sake of it.

[Eeyore]

People HAVE made a judgement Al, you seem to miss that point every time. They could and should have done better. Again, done. What more debate do you want? Its like you've got an addiction to having the same debate time and again. You just end up lumping in ridiculous quotes, like 'they hired the same PR firm as H&G' and THAT is what kills the thread.

The reality is that people haven't made a judgement. As you say they have made mistakes but the crucial thing is have they learned from those mistakes. For me the answer is a resounding No. Six and a half years in if they had learned from their mistakes we wouldn't still be having continual changes in structure. If they had learned from their mistakes then every summer wouldn't be a pivotal summer. We need progression, we need evolution and not revolution every summer. After six and a half years we should have a structure and a squad in place that just needs tinkering with.

Above all though six and a half years in we shouldn't even need to debate what their intentions are they should of had ample opportunity to demonstrate their intent.

As for the comments regarding FSG using vero communications the same PR company used by H and G for me it shows a clear lack of judgement. I think it is patently clear that H and G were a pair of con artists who talked the talk and took the fans for a ride. So why on God's earth would you use the firm that were a part of H and Gs lies and deceit.

Reading on the vero website about how vero helped H and G makes my skin crawl to be honest.

[CraigDS]

They use KPMG to audit the accounts, like H&G did, should we blast them for that? RBS provide the rolling credit facility, like they did for H&G, again should we blast them for that?

You've made your mind up on them Al, fine, but you're then trying to find reason in every decision to back up your already made decision. Most of it isn't based on fact, it's based on speculation around a fact (i.e. they are using Velo (fact), so in your mind that means...(speculation)).

It's impossible to debate with you when you do that. It muddies the waters between debating facts as we know them and debating opinion and speculation - the latter of which is utterly pointless and goes on far too often.

[whiteboots]

The reality is that people haven't made a judgement...

I think they should have.

FSG bought us as a financial investment they thought undervalued, which by sound management would appreciate. It has. Job done.

Some make adverse moral judgements on Abrahamovic and Mansour. Each to their own. But they like football, their objective was to consolidate a personal and corporate power base respectively, and enhance that by sporting glory. The latter has never been part of FSG’s agenda.

The stadium issue continues to frustrate, and predates FSG back to the Taylor Report. As a Club we have always been, since then, spectacularly behind the curve. Man U led the way, Arsenal followed, West Ham seized an opportunity, Chelsea and Spurs have spectacular stadium solutions pending. Everton will significantly close the gap when they move to the  Bramley Moore. Spurs and Chelsea will play entire seasons at 90k capacity Wembley. We have managed a new main stand that cost more than the 70k Millenium stadium.

From our point of view FSG’s work is done, from their point of view there is plenty of windfall cash to come with very little financial demands on them.

Klopp is the man for the job, someone to stick to and with. My concern is that this season, Comte will be deemed a success, from Mourinho, Wenger, Pochettino, Klopp, Guardiola and Ranieri, at least half will be deemed failures, and Koeman may not even make the EL slot, but go on to manage Barcelona.

My point being that we currently have the best roster of top  managers that the English top flight has ever seen. They are winners. But most cannot be winners here. They will move on. We may want Klopp, but if we cannot compete in the transfer and wage market for the best, how long will he want us for?

[naka]

actually I think that Everton`s announcement regarding a new stadium is welcomed because it again puts pressure on fsg to show their true motives.
they have been moderately successful pushing Liverpool on, but have never really speculated to accumulate.
we need the Anfield road end extended and in the age of cheap money the time to do it is now.

if it is knocked back then I think we may drift in the chasing pack for a fair while

[ToneLa]

I for one consider my judgement made and only I may decide that as it's my head!

I should make clear that the comments below are addressed to Al 555

One of the tough things about reading your comments is that they are relentlessly critical.
In terms of engaging in a meaningful debate...
It would be helpful if you set out how you would like FSG to operate ... day to day, week to week, month to month. Please extend this with what you consider to be doable objectives over the next two to five years.

I've tried this before mate:
Which League club would you swap owners with?
If you imagined it was Footie Manager what would you edit about the owners
What are you happy with right now?
What drives you to post every day about FSG?

I've had family killed and can't motivate myself to talk about it every day. Al must be very fired up. I've never found out why. It's not like the rest of us love this club less

[jambutty]

Al, everyone has flaws, every entity could be construed to have erred.

But I can't think of anyone tougher, more adverserial, relentless and unforgiving as some of our lot.

It's to our credit and our detriment on occasion.

[Ipcress]

I for one consider my judgement made and only I may decide that as it's my head!

I've tried this before mate:
Which League club would you swap owners with?
If you imagined it was Footie Manager what would you edit about the owners
What are you happy with right now?
What drives you to post every day about FSG?

I've had family killed and can't motivate myself to talk about it every day. Al must be very fired up. I've never found out why. It's not like the rest of us love this club less

I'm sorry for your loss.

Regarding Al, I've given up. I've come to the acceptance that he is (possibly deliberately) one eyed and reasoning with him in anything that doesn't confirm his world view (FSG cannot do good) is an exasperating act of futility and a waste of my time (and I've only tried it a couple of times).

[Fromola]

Everton another club showing more ambition with their ground and catching us up fast.

That's United, Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs, Everton,  Man City and West Ham likely to have bigger capacity than us in a few years with all bar United (who rebuilt theirs so successfully in the 90s) in new or completely rebuilt stadiums. That'll be 8th in ground capacity and Main Stand aside it's a cramped, outdated ground anyway compared to many others in the country.

[Jake]

Everton another club showing more ambition with their ground and catching us up fast.

That's United, Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs, Everton,  Man City and West Ham likely to have bigger capacity than us in a few years with all bar United (who rebuilt theirs so successfully in the 90s) in new or completely rebuilt stadiums. That'll be 8th in ground capacity and Main Stand aside it's a cramped, outdated ground anyway compared to many others in the country.

That ground that they're going to struggle to fill? That they're getting one big corporate blowjob from Buster Bloodvessel for? Go toffees.

[sms1986]

Everton another club showing more ambition with their ground and catching us up fast.

That's United, Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs, Everton,  Man City and West Ham likely to have bigger capacity than us in a few years with all bar United (who rebuilt theirs so successfully in the 90s) in new or completely rebuilt stadiums. That'll be 8th in ground capacity and Main Stand aside it's a cramped, outdated ground anyway compared to many others in the country.

Do they even fill Goodison on a regular basis, never mind a brand new stadium? Also, West Ham got given a brand new stadium because it was just built for the Olympics, hardly showing more ambition - it actually only holds 3000 more people for football matches anyway.

[CraigDS]

Everton another club showing more ambition with their ground and catching us up fast.

That's United, Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs, Everton,  Man City and West Ham likely to have bigger capacity than us in a few years with all bar United (who rebuilt theirs so successfully in the 90s) in new or completely rebuilt stadiums. That'll be 8th in ground capacity and Main Stand aside it's a cramped, outdated ground anyway compared to many others in the country.

Since when has not even commiting to buying the land required showing ambition?

[Eeyore]

Since when has not even commiting to buying the land required showing ambition?

Absolutely typical ignore the fact that we like the Red Sox will have a Stadium well below our standing in the game  and pathetically cherry pick a small part of someone's post and attempt to ridicule it. We are historically in the top two in regards to English teams so why accept having the 7th or 8th biggest Stadium especially when we are situated in one of the less affluent areas of the country.

[sms1986]

Absolutely typical ignore the fact that we like the Red Sox will have a Stadium well below our standing in the game  and pathetically cherry pick a small part of someone's post and attempt to ridicule it. We are historically in the top two in regards to English teams so why accept having the 7th or 8th biggest Stadium especially when we are situated in one of the less affluent areas of the country.

He's just asking a rather relevant question, if you're trying to say that someone is ridiculing Bitter Mug, my post or that of Le Jake are much more suitable.

[Jake]

Absolutely typical ignore the fact that we like the Red Sox will have a Stadium well below our standing in the game  and pathetically cherry pick a small part of someone's post and attempt to ridicule it. We are historically in the top two in regards to English teams so why accept having the 7th or 8th biggest Stadium especially when we are situated in one of the less affluent areas of the country.

A small part of someones post?

The entire ethos of the post was that Everton are doing better than us in stadium stakes.

Then he continued to list other teams in a similar character. So whilst it may have been more "words" that were left out, he actually concentrated on the point of the post.

But you know, ignore his point and make some bizarre post about the Red Sox and how we're historically top two (other than you know, the last 27 years).

[Eeyore]

It is not a bizarre post . In terms of fanbaae Liverpool are clearly in the top two in England. The Red Sox are clearly the 2nd biggest name in Baseball behind the Yankees. The thing is FSG aren't arsed about that we have a capacity that is well below our standing in the game. The Red Sox have the ball park with the 24th biggest capacity out of 30 teams.

The emails show it all they aren't arsed about us . They just built a huge corporate stand and will look to milk the world wide fanbaae. Fuck ambition or actually looking to compete when we make it so fucking easy to pluck the low lying fruit.

FSG haven't done a single ambitious thing in their entire time here and why would they when there are so many people willing to defend mediocrity. You get the Club you deserve . Defend the 2nd rate unambitious mediocrity and you will reap what you sow.

Everyone and I mean everyone involved in elite level sport should strive to be the best they possibly can . Can anyone possibly say FSG are living up to that.

[Jake]

See you did it again, again. (again).

You ignore the valid point craig made about bitter mug's stupid comment about Everton, and repeat the same, not relevant, stuff that's been said for the last 176 pages.

You ignore every relevant point on "our side" of the argument and just post whatever you want. It's why it's hard to have a serious discussion.

The way I see the recent discussion is:

Bitter Mug "Everton are showing more ambition than we are"
Craig and others "but it's not even begun yet/there's going to be loads of problems"
You "Craig you pathetically cherry picked the above and the Red Sox have a small stadium"

You don't see that? At all?

[Fromola]

See you did it again, again. (again).

You ignore the valid point craig made about bitter mug's stupid comment about Everton, and repeat the same, not relevant, stuff that's been said for the last 176 pages.

You ignore every relevant point on "our side" of the argument and just post whatever you want. It's why it's hard to have a serious discussion.

The way I see the recent discussion is:

Bitter Mug "Everton are showing more ambition than we are"
Craig and others "but it's not even begun yet/there's going to be loads of problems"
You "Craig you pathetically cherry picked the above and the Red Sox have a small stadium"

You don't see that? At all?

They are. Even in the transfer market now we won't be competing with the Manchester clubs or Chelsea, we're in the market with Everton.

[sms1986]

They are. Even in the transfer market now we won't be competing with the Manchester clubs or Chelsea, we're in the market with Everton.

Let's see some actual progress on their new 50,000 capacity stadium first?

Yeah, I really want us to be wasting 89m on crap players like Pogba. Besides, we don't need household names, we need talented players like Mane or Coutinho.

[Eeyore]

See you did it again, again. (again).

You ignore the valid point craig made about bitter mug's stupid comment about Everton, and repeat the same, not relevant, stuff that's been said for the last 176 pages.

You ignore every relevant point on "our side" of the argument and just post whatever you want. It's why it's hard to have a serious discussion.

The way I see the recent discussion is:

Bitter Mug "Everton are showing more ambition than we are"
Craig and others "but it's not even begun yet/there's going to be loads of problems"
You "Craig you pathetically cherry picked the above and the Red Sox have a small stadium"

You don't see that? At all?

What Everton are trying to pull off is hugely ambitious though.  Which is the sentiment of the post. So why look to pick holes in it.

[Jake]

What Everton are trying to pull off is hugely ambitious though.  Which is the sentiment of the post. So why look to pick holes in it.

Because the ambition "may" be misplaced, which may be an incorrect decision (I don't know enough about Everton to know either way, and admittedly the stuff I've read has been Liverpool based so may be biased).

But yeah, now at least we're talking about the point instead of going off on a tangent.

[sms1986]

What Everton are trying to pull off is hugely ambitious though.  Which is the sentiment of the post. So why look to pick holes in it.

Yeah, "try" - anyone can try to pull something hugely ambitious off, let's see if they do.

[Eeyore]

Yeah, "try" - anyone can try to pull something hugely ambitious off, let's see if they do.

Give me that every time over profitable mediocrity.

[sms1986]

Give me that every time over profitable mediocrity.

I don't know much about the land they're building - or supposedly will build it on - but only 50,000 seats? Why not aim for 60,000? 65,000? 50,000 doesn't seem very ambitious at all.

[Eeyore]

Because the ambition "may" be misplaced, which may be an incorrect decision (I don't know enough about Everton to know either way, and admittedly the stuff I've read has been Liverpool based so may be biased).

But yeah, now at least we're talking about the point instead of going off on a tangent.

The point has been abundantly clear from the off. Ambition.

We partake in an elite level sport. Ambition is the starting point of achievement unless of course you are a business then profit supercedes everything .

In the one eyed parochial world of football Moshiri will be a laughing stock on here right up to the point he succeeds then he will become a sugar daddy.

[diegoLFC7]

We are seriously debating stadium capacities having a correlation with footballing results? Newcastle United had a bigger stadium than us their whole history and havent won a trophy in 60 years or something like that. I would rather stay at Anfield with a modest 50,000 capacity then get a handout from the city council and move, and have our home Anfield be destroyed to provide housing. I don't know about you lot but if an extra 50 million pound a year profit is incentive enough to move stadia then so be it. Everton will forever be in the shadow of Liverpool FC, no stadium or turn of good fortune will ever overcome the vast superiority we have over them.

[SerbianScouser]

One thing you definitely can't blame FSG for is richer organizations than them not wanting to buy us. It is a concern that all this time no person or organization out there being wealthy and ambitious enough to compete with richest clubs in the world is even enquiring about even buying some stakes in the club let alone buying FSG out. It's a much, much bigger problem than whether FSG are doing good enough job so far or not.

[Eeyore]

One thing you definitely can't blame FSG for is richer organizations than them not wanting to buy us. It is a concern that all this time no person or organization out there being wealthy and ambitious enough to compete with richest clubs in the world is even enquiring about even buying some stakes in the club let alone buying FSG out. It's a much, much bigger problem than whether FSG are doing good enough job so far or not.

Tom Werner we have the funds to compete with anyone in football.

[El Lobo]

One thing you definitely can't blame FSG for is richer organizations than them not wanting to buy us.

That's what you think 

[El Lobo]

It is not a bizarre post . In terms of fanbaae Liverpool are clearly in the top two in England. The Red Sox are clearly the 2nd biggest name in Baseball behind the Yankees. The thing is FSG aren't arsed about that we have a capacity that is well below our standing in the game. The Red Sox have the ball park with the 24th biggest capacity out of 30 teams.

The emails show it all they aren't arsed about us . They just built a huge corporate stand and will look to milk the world wide fanbaae. Fuck ambition or actually looking to compete when we make it so fucking easy to pluck the low lying fruit.

FSG haven't done a single ambitious thing in their entire time here and why would they when there are so many people willing to defend mediocrity. You get the Club you deserve . Defend the 2nd rate unambitious mediocrity and you will reap what you sow.

Everyone and I mean everyone involved in elite level sport should strive to be the best they possibly can . Can anyone possibly say FSG are living up to that.

Which emails?

[DangerScouse]

Tom Werner we have the funds to compete with anyone in football.

Spoofers. No interest in competing at the highest level. The investment isn't worth it to them.

[El Lobo]

Spoofers. No interest in competing at the highest level. The investment isn't worth it to them.

What is it Werner is meant to have said?

[Carlito Roberto]

What is it Werner is meant to have said?

"We have the funds to compete with any team in world football".

Which has proven to be utter horse shit.

[Suareznumber7]

Everton another club showing more ambition with their ground and catching us up fast.

That's United, Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs, Everton,  Man City and West Ham likely to have bigger capacity than us in a few years with all bar United (who rebuilt theirs so successfully in the 90s) in new or completely rebuilt stadiums. That'll be 8th in ground capacity and Main Stand aside it's a cramped, outdated ground anyway compared to many others in the country.

I really don't understand this obsession with everyone and the size of the ground.  I realize that the bigger the ground the more fans can get in and watch and that would be ideal but the fact that we might be 8th in ground capacity doesn't really matter all that much does it? 

[sms1986]

I really don't understand this obsession with everyone and the size of the ground.  I realize that the bigger the ground the more fans can get in and watch and that would be ideal but the fact that we might be 8th in ground capacity doesn't really matter all that much does it?

It does to people who worry too much about what other clubs are doing. Give our own club time, and with Klopp around we'll be back where we belong, winning or at least competing for titles.

[Fromola]

Let's see some actual progress on their new 50,000 capacity stadium first?

Yeah, I really want us to be wasting 89m on crap players like Pogba. Besides, we don't need household names, we need talented players like Mane or Coutinho.

You also need to finance a squad. Our squad depth is a disgrace. I've never seen such a weak bench as this season. If the first XI don't do it we can't change a game from the bench.

[Fromola]

We are seriously debating stadium capacities having a correlation with footballing results? Newcastle United had a bigger stadium than us their whole history and havent won a trophy in 60 years or something like that. I would rather stay at Anfield with a modest 50,000 capacity then get a handout from the city council and move, and have our home Anfield be destroyed to provide housing. I don't know about you lot but if an extra 50 million pound a year profit is incentive enough to move stadia then so be it. Everton will forever be in the shadow of Liverpool FC, no stadium or turn of good fortune will ever overcome the vast superiority we have over them.

At least the people of Newcastle can get tickets to watch them. We've already lost a generation of fans. We've lost a matchgoing culture below a certain age because the capacity is too low for the fanbase. That matters and links into ambition. The next generation of fans on Merseyside will go to Everton if they're showing ambition and it's easier to get tickets.

I really don't understand this obsession with everyone and the size of the ground.  I realize that the bigger the ground the more fans can get in and watch and that would be ideal but the fact that we might be 8th in ground capacity doesn't really matter all that much does it?

Of course it does. For a start it means you've got 7 more clubs with a bigger matchgoing fanbase than you if they're near enough filling those stadiums. It's no good having the pubs of Merseyside chocker on a matchday and a culture of kids not going to the game, when they go to Everton and easily get cheap junior season tickets and become a fan for life, while ours get lost because they can't get in the ground, or it's too much of a pain for parents to get them tickets beyond charity matches or early round cup games.

Believe it or not ambition matters. Manchester United were ambitious with their stadium and now generate more revenue than anyone else and would be a lot richer still if they weren't paying so much to the Glazers every year.

All we're trading off is history.

[Groundskeeper Willie]

What Everton are trying to pull off is hugely ambitious though.  Which is the sentiment of the post. So why look to pick holes in it.

Do you base this on because their owner said so and some handsome drawing of a stadium? Don't know about you, but history tells us that's not much to go on.

[Groundskeeper Willie]

They are. Even in the transfer market now we won't be competing with the Manchester clubs or Chelsea, we're in the market with Everton.

This post made me laugh out loud.

[CraigDS]

Do you base this on because their owner said so and some handsome drawing of a stadium? Don't know about you, but history tells us that's not much to go on.

They haven't even got a fucking drawing.

They've got an idea. Not one they've backed with money and bought the land. No an idea where if they can find funding and make the idea into a little more than a dream then they'll progress.

This, BTW, is less progress than we've made on the Anny Rd increase. However that's ignored of course for the sake of this argument because it doesn't fit the agenda.