Author Topic: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)  (Read 488998 times)

Offline andy07

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Yes, hopefully we have been scoping out the options and will come up with something in the next 12 months.
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Shame Dubai FC are looking to curry favour with gullible sports fans in their sportswashing attempt.

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Offline CraigDS

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So empty standing spots rather than empty seats then. Maybe they intend to buy a load of mannequins and stand them there so it looks full.

Offline rob1966

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So empty standing spots rather than empty seats then. Maybe they intend to buy a load of mannequins and stand them there so it looks full.

They've got the terrace model in their club store

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Offline Dull Tools

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Safe standing has been approved for clubs from this season. Would love to see it in the Kop.

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Offline SalahsLeftFoot

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I maybe missing something obvious here but .... what is the difference between the "safe standing" in places like the away end at Spurs and what Anfield has at the back of the Kop and in the ARE ? Apart from there being far more legroom/space at Spurs than in the Kop  >:(

Is what Anfield has safe standing in all but name ? Personally, I hate the new setup at the back of the Kop; if you are someone who is above 5'10 or of even a slightly larger build you are screwed now in those rows compared to pre-rails. The official advice is that they are not safe standing areas and that they do not affect either sight lines or legroom - all of those 3 things are a complete lie [ with the reduced legroom meaning many people have little option but to now stand up ]. There were many disgruntled STHs on my row alone (myself included) who were talking, at the Wolves game, about how they were all waiting on the club getting back to them after filling in the "I want to move to get away from the rail seating" form. Luckily I was sorted out (and didn't have to move too far - just 8 rows down and onto an aisle seat :) - but I will find out at the Palace game if the others were so lucky



Offline disgraced cake

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I maybe missing something obvious here but .... what is the difference between the "safe standing" in places like the away end at Spurs and what Anfield has at the back of the Kop and in the ARE ? Apart from there being far more legroom/space at Spurs than in the Kop  >:(

Is what Anfield has safe standing in all but name ? Personally, I hate the new setup at the back of the Kop; if you are someone who is above 5'10 or of even a slightly larger build you are screwed now in those rows compared to pre-rails. The official advice is that they are not safe standing areas and that they do not affect either sight lines or legroom - all of those 3 things are a complete lie [ with the reduced legroom meaning many people have little option but to now stand up ]. There were many disgruntled STHs on my row alone (myself included) who were talking, at the Wolves game, about how they were all waiting on the club getting back to them after filling in the "I want to move to get away from the rail seating" form. Luckily I was sorted out (and didn't have to move too far - just 8 rows down and onto an aisle seat :) - but I will find out at the Palace game if the others were so lucky

I'm not sure what it's like at Spurs, but I think the newer grounds being made in this country are in line with the potential for safe standing in the future.

What we have is rail seating, not safe standing. I imagine they've been put in for safety reasons but you aren't really allowed to stand during the games, whether people do it or not. I've not sat there yet so can't talk about what difference they make, though most people I've spoke too haven't pointed out much of a difference.

It's going to be interesting to see what clubs implement standing, especially in the Prem. Hopefully plenty do and it goes well. A lot of people think bringing it in will automatically improve atmospheres, but I think it revolves around other things too, like where in the ground you have it and how you can best get people in there who want to make a difference to the atmosphere for example.
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Offline rob1966

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I'm not sure what it's like at Spurs, but I think the newer grounds being made in this country are in line with the potential for safe standing in the future.

What we have is rail seating, not safe standing. I imagine they've been put in for safety reasons but you aren't really allowed to stand during the games, whether people do it or not. I've not sat there yet so can't talk about what difference they make, though most people I've spoke too haven't pointed out much of a difference.

It's going to be interesting to see what clubs implement standing, especially in the Prem. Hopefully plenty do and it goes well. A lot of people think bringing it in will automatically improve atmospheres, but I think it revolves around other things too, like where in the ground you have it and how you can best get people in there who want to make a difference to the atmosphere for example.

Was in them 4 times last season, back in the seats in 306 I used to and now again have a share in. We've always stood there anyway, but it was nice at my mid 50's age to have something to lean on. With the height of the bars, I reckon if we had to sit, they'd spoil the view of the game.
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Offline Indomitable_Carp

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I´ve only been in the ones in the Lower Annie. They wouldn´t spoil the view sitting. Problem is if you´re stood at the back of the Lower Annie you can only see about 50% of the pitch. However the rails were the perfect height for leaning on as well.

The new Annie Road development should sort out the sight-lines for the Lower. If we do end uo with an official safe-standing (instead of "rail seating") trial I can see it happening there in the Lower. I´m not sure if the spacing abides by official regulations or not, but leg room wasn´t a problem with everyone stood up.

If things progress I can picture the whole of the Lower Annie becoming a proper safe standing zone, incorporating a chunk of the away fans as well. One day you´d hope the whole of the Kop would follow, but I think that discussion has also been done to death on here (gradiant, spacing etc)

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #1851 on: November 30, 2022, 02:08:23 pm »
The rail seating is being expanded down to row 49 of the Kop.

https://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/rail-seating-trial-be-expanded-kop

Quote
Liverpool FC is expanding its rail seating trial on the Kop following the installation of the seating last season.

Rail seating has been installed in two areas of Anfield following a safety review by the Sports Grounds Safety Authority (SGSA). The review highlighted that during matches persistent standing in the Kop and Anfield Road lower tier is an issue that needs to be addressed to ensure supporters’ safety.

The initial trial saw 7,800 seats with rail seating installed on the Kop and across the lower tier of the Anfield Road Stand.

The club will now extend the trial of railed seating on the Kop and will use the winter break of the Premier League season to install an additional 2,500 rail seats. The expansion will be across blocks 202-306, rows 61-49 on the Kop. This will take the total rail seats in the Kop to 4,300. Work will commence imminently and will take approximately five weeks to install.

Season ticket holders whose seats are impacted by these changes will be contacted in due course to explain the changes and how this will impact them.

The SGSA’s regulatory focus is on reducing persistent standing risks in stadiums and avoiding potential crowd collapses. The report has evidenced that safety rails increase safety within all-seater stadiums. The SGSA considers it important to maintain momentum on managing the identified persistent standing risks at stadiums.

The seating installed at Anfield includes normal stadium seats with an integrated safety rail behind them to avoid a crowd collapse. The design is to enable fans to stand safely at key moments in the game, like goal celebrations, but must revert to a seat at other times. Fans are advised this is not a ‘safe standing’ area – Anfield remains an all-seater stadium. The safety of supporters when they come to Anfield is our top priority.

The club has consulted the Supporters Board, in line with our agreed fan-engagement framework, about the extension of railed seating and it provided positive feedback on the initial phase of the pilot. The expansion of railed seating will be reviewed again at the end of the season.

Andy Hughes, managing director at Liverpool FC, said: “Following a review of the initial rail seating trial last season, we will now expand the trial and introduce rail seating in additional areas of the Kop to further address crowd safety and persistent standing in line with SGSA guidance.

“The health and safety of our supporters when attending matches at Anfield is paramount. As we have said before, it is essential that we listen to the experts and deliver their recommendations to address this important safety issue.”
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Offline Oh Campione

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #1852 on: November 30, 2022, 02:45:53 pm »
The rail seating is being expanded down to row 49 of the Kop.

https://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/rail-seating-trial-be-expanded-kop

Great news this - my seat is on row 50 so just sneak in!

Offline andy07

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #1853 on: December 31, 2022, 08:17:25 pm »
Great news this - my seat is on row 50 so just sneak in!

All done as far as I could see last night.
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Offline Oh Campione

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First time with the rail seating at Leciester - certainly felt like a few on my row could do with a diet after Christmas!  Felt much tighter squeezing down the row than usual

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Looking forward to seeing it in my cup seat row this weekend.
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I've been in the Lower Anny Road for most of the 1st half of the season and despite the rails, people are still constantly being told to sit down by stewards. Are we allowed to stand or are the rails there to improve safety at moments when the crowd would naturally stand?
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Offline rob1966

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I've been in the Lower Anny Road for most of the 1st half of the season and despite the rails, people are still constantly being told to sit down by stewards. Are we allowed to stand or are the rails there to improve safety at moments when the crowd would naturally stand?

You're still supposed to sit, they're for safety as you say.

There is a very large blind eye turned on the Kop
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Offline Peter McGurk

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First time with the rail seating at Leciester - certainly felt like a few on my row could do with a diet after Christmas!  Felt much tighter squeezing down the row than usual

Anyone take any pictures?

Offline andy07

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I've been in the Lower Anny Road for most of the 1st half of the season and despite the rails, people are still constantly being told to sit down by stewards. Are we allowed to stand or are the rails there to improve safety at moments when the crowd would naturally stand?

Stewards on one half of the Road End make no comments about away fans standing. Stewards on the home side get their knickers in a twist. I presume all stewards are subject to the same guidance but their actions speak otherwise.  They really need to get their act together. 

Bottom line stay standing, if everyone stands they can say what they like and it will change nothing.
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Offline Billy Elliot

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #1860 on: January 10, 2023, 12:55:54 pm »
Starting to get the feeling it's not going to make any difference to anything when they do bring in safe standing.

I was looking at the prices for Spurs and it looks like the section they've future proofed for safe standing is more expensive than most other parts of the ground.

Charging a premium for standing is a little weird. A lot of people used to stand in the Kop because they couldn't afford a seat on a regular basis, and it was that "in it together" culture that drove the atmosphere. It'll only make a difference if we can get a new kind of demographic in, the type of demographics that used to stand on the Kop. Can't see shuffling people about will make any difference and it's not going to be like in some grounds in Germany where you can meet up with mates, etc.
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Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #1861 on: January 10, 2023, 04:26:35 pm »
Starting to get the feeling it's not going to make any difference to anything when they do bring in safe standing.

I was looking at the prices for Spurs and it looks like the section they've future proofed for safe standing is more expensive than most other parts of the ground.

Charging a premium for standing is a little weird. A lot of people used to stand in the Kop because they couldn't afford a seat on a regular basis, and it was that "in it together" culture that drove the atmosphere. It'll only make a difference if we can get a new kind of demographic in, the type of demographics that used to stand on the Kop. Can't see shuffling people about will make any difference and it's not going to be like in some grounds in Germany where you can meet up with mates, etc.

It's better because it's safer but entirely agree, it's not going to suddenly generate the old Kop. After all, the Kop's been stood on for years - for the whole match. I haven't seen the seats installed but it sounds like they are cramping the space even standing up. It'll only be when it's 'all in' (and cheaper) and more people in like Germany that a real sense of the old Kop will start to come back.

But that's not rail seating or 'safe standing', that's standing that's safe. That's a safe terrace - barriers every four or six rows. Room to move, choose your spec and meet your mates. Difficult balancing that with cheaper prices now but ultimately could be worth it. There may come a day when there's no kids coming through to fill it and everyone watches on their phones.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2023, 04:29:30 pm by Peter McGurk »

Offline rob1966

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #1862 on: January 10, 2023, 08:35:42 pm »
It's better because it's safer but entirely agree, it's not going to suddenly generate the old Kop. After all, the Kop's been stood on for years - for the whole match. I haven't seen the seats installed but it sounds like they are cramping the space even standing up. It'll only be when it's 'all in' (and cheaper) and more people in like Germany that a real sense of the old Kop will start to come back.

But that's not rail seating or 'safe standing', that's standing that's safe. That's a safe terrace - barriers every four or six rows. Room to move, choose your spec and meet your mates. Difficult balancing that with cheaper prices now but ultimately could be worth it. There may come a day when there's no kids coming through to fill it and everyone watches on their phones.

I was part of a group sharing 4 seasies, we moved into the Kop in about 2006, into 306, stood every game from then on. I stopped in 2010 and started going again in 2022, the rails were in by then. Other than a bit less space when people are moving along the row, don't feel cramped at all and its nice to have a bar to lean on. The rails are attached to the back of step of the row in front, so they are level with the top of the seat in front of you, so you don't lose any actual space. It feels a lot safer though, always felt in the past I'd go arse over tit one day when we scored, one of my mates almost went flying a few times.

Sadly the Kop can't got back to proper safe standing, the drop between each row is too high, there'd be broken ankles and all kinds.
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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #1863 on: January 10, 2023, 10:21:33 pm »
It's better because it's safer but entirely agree

Spot on.

And I'm absolutely fucking speechless!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/64228487

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Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #1864 on: January 10, 2023, 11:32:28 pm »
Spot on.

And I'm absolutely fucking speechless!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/64228487

Hillsborough is all-seating???

In any event, it's important to make the distinction that it's not the standing or the sitting but the overcrowding that's the issue

Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #1865 on: January 10, 2023, 11:42:15 pm »
I was part of a group sharing 4 seasies, we moved into the Kop in about 2006, into 306, stood every game from then on. I stopped in 2010 and started going again in 2022, the rails were in by then. Other than a bit less space when people are moving along the row, don't feel cramped at all and its nice to have a bar to lean on. The rails are attached to the back of step of the row in front, so they are level with the top of the seat in front of you, so you don't lose any actual space. It feels a lot safer though, always felt in the past I'd go arse over tit one day when we scored, one of my mates almost went flying a few times.

Sadly the Kop can't got back to proper safe standing, the drop between each row is too high, there'd be broken ankles and all kinds.

Last bit is not entirely true. The distance front to back for each step on the Kop is just over 560mm and the angle of the stand is about 25 degrees. The distance required for standing on a terrace is 280mm (for existing stands) and the maximum angle is also 25 degrees. So an extra step introduced in between each step would be 280mm and 25 degrees (or a step height of about 135mm) - theoretically good to go for standing terraces in the UK (currently lower divisions only).

Other stands in other countries are steeper and the introduction of a barrier every two or four steps would be less load on the barriers (and hence the people) than has currently been considered in the UK - so in the new world of barriers at a greater frequency, steeper might be allowed. The current regs do not say the angle cannot absolutely be greater than 25 degrees but that a risk assessment is required. But if it's at a new angle in a new stand then the front to back step distances goes up to 350mm. Or just sod it, mash up a pretty picture and bang it up to SSC...

A lifting of the ban in the top two divisions might be all that's needed (to start with).
« Last Edit: January 11, 2023, 12:10:25 am by Peter McGurk »

Offline Billy Elliot

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #1866 on: January 11, 2023, 01:58:54 am »
Hillsborough is all-seating???

In any event, it's important to make the distinction that it's not the standing or the sitting but the overcrowding that's the issue

I meant it's spot on that the most important thing about the rails is the safety. I've always said there's safe standing and there's unsafe seating. The crush at the weekend just shows the Leppings Lane is unsafe, seated or terraced. They've stuck seats in but it's not much different to how it was in 89 (or 81 for that matter). I just can't believe it happened again. It seems that everyone came through the central tunnel, with the wings empty due to lack of stewards. They know the inherent problems with the design and still do nothing to manage the risks. It left me speechless.

The thing that really done it for me was, ""The SGSA is now working with the club, Sheffield City Council and the Safety Advisory Group to review the event, learn any lessons and ensure a safe environment for football fans."

Have they not had long enough to learn any lessons, for fuck sake.

It's off topic from the thread really but I was completely shocked and didn't know where to stick it.
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Offline rob1966

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #1867 on: January 11, 2023, 01:34:44 pm »
Last bit is not entirely true. The distance front to back for each step on the Kop is just over 560mm and the angle of the stand is about 25 degrees. The distance required for standing on a terrace is 280mm (for existing stands) and the maximum angle is also 25 degrees. So an extra step introduced in between each step would be 280mm and 25 degrees (or a step height of about 135mm) - theoretically good to go for standing terraces in the UK (currently lower divisions only).


I  was guessing that the existing structure wouldn't be designed, nor be able to take the extra weight of all the concrete required to add the steps and the extra fatties that will be added in?
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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #1868 on: January 11, 2023, 03:37:25 pm »
Question for Pete - just out of interest when he gets the time.

Would the post-Hillsborough Kop (e.g. after fences took down, boys pen exit re-opened, other exits opened, reduced capacity, etc. etc) have passed todays standards to play in League one, League two?

Just interested, as it was very safe - with barriers every six or eight or so rows. There was the match (think it was  Spartak Moscow) where we had to reduce capacity further for UEFA and remember thinking at the time it was complete overkill.
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Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #1869 on: January 11, 2023, 07:24:37 pm »
Question for Pete - just out of interest when he gets the time.

Would the post-Hillsborough Kop (e.g. after fences took down, boys pen exit re-opened, other exits opened, reduced capacity, etc. etc) have passed todays standards to play in League one, League two?

Just interested, as it was very safe - with barriers every six or eight or so rows. There was the match (think it was  Spartak Moscow) where we had to reduce capacity further for UEFA and remember thinking at the time it was complete overkill.

Yes. Perfectly safe per Green Guide and could be so even now - but I never liked a less than full kop. Too much room to bounce about in.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2023, 07:31:32 pm by Peter McGurk »

Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #1870 on: January 11, 2023, 07:25:53 pm »
I  was guessing that the existing structure wouldn't be designed, nor be able to take the extra weight of all the concrete required to add the steps and the extra fatties that will be added in?

That’s right but that’s not to say you couldn’t add structure to cope with the extra weight.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2023, 07:28:06 pm by Peter McGurk »

Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #1871 on: January 11, 2023, 07:35:54 pm »
I meant it's spot on that the most important thing about the rails is the safety. I've always said there's safe standing and there's unsafe seating. The crush at the weekend just shows the Leppings Lane is unsafe, seated or terraced. They've stuck seats in but it's not much different to how it was in 89 (or 81 for that matter). I just can't believe it happened again. It seems that everyone came through the central tunnel, with the wings empty due to lack of stewards. They know the inherent problems with the design and still do nothing to manage the risks. It left me speechless.

The thing that really done it for me was, ""The SGSA is now working with the club, Sheffield City Council and the Safety Advisory Group to review the event, learn any lessons and ensure a safe environment for football fans."

Have they not had long enough to learn any lessons, for fuck sake.

It's off topic from the thread really but I was completely shocked and didn't know where to stick it.

It is absolutely unbelievable. I just don’t get how they wouldn’t be aware ( or for that matter how it could overcrowded and if it’s all-seater. The all-seater stand was meant give control to the stadium management. Are people standing two deep to each seat there?   Does all-seater not work?

« Last Edit: January 12, 2023, 04:29:36 pm by Peter McGurk »

Offline peterstanding

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #1872 on: January 23, 2023, 03:19:18 pm »
That’s right but that’s not to say you couldn’t add structure to cope with the extra weight.

Peter if the work to have 2 steps on the kopwas completed, what is the realistic capacity in Germany the ratio standing to seats is 1.8 so could the kop have a capacity of around 23000? compared to 13000 seats?.

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #1873 on: January 23, 2023, 10:47:51 pm »
Peter if the work to have 2 steps on the kopwas completed, what is the realistic capacity in Germany the ratio standing to seats is 1.8 so could the kop have a capacity of around 23000? compared to 13000 seats?.

Not really anything to do with what goes on in Germany.

The current density on the Kop is about 0.4 sqm per seat. The current UK standing regulations permit 47 people per 10sqm or about 0.2sqm per person. This is a ratio of about 1.8 standing to seating (ignoring whatever additional fire escapes might be needed). Current capacity of Kop is about 12,400 - so theoretically about 22,300.

Whatever the intangible attractions, there is a number of reasons this is unlikely to happen any time soon and not just about additional steps. There's:

- the additional weight to consider,
- potential additional fire escapes,
- the cost versus income,
- dilution of demand and knock-on effect for prices elsewhere,
- the aftermath of COVID and effect on club finances,
- Kirkby as a 'financial distraction',
- the low-debt business model,
- ethical and legislative resistance to anything other than one-to-one safe standing...
« Last Edit: January 23, 2023, 11:27:06 pm by Peter McGurk »

Offline andy07

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #1874 on: January 24, 2023, 10:35:19 pm »
Peter if the work to have 2 steps on the kopwas completed, what is the realistic capacity in Germany the ratio standing to seats is 1.8 so could the kop have a capacity of around 23000? compared to 13000 seats?.

Go in the concourses on The Kop at half time and they are rammed as are the toilets.  It also takes ages to get out at the end of the match from the back of The Kop.  And it takes at least 10 minutes to get in now in the 20 minutes before kick off.

So assuming we overcame the objections of those who oppose standing, and we were able to put in place any structural adaptations to carry the weight of more fans, we still need to deal with safe access / egress and space in the concourses.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2023, 10:39:22 pm by andy07 »
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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #1875 on: January 25, 2023, 09:30:20 am »
Go in the concourses on The Kop at half time and they are rammed as are the toilets.  It also takes ages to get out at the end of the match from the back of The Kop.  And it takes at least 10 minutes to get in now in the 20 minutes before kick off.

So assuming we overcame the objections of those who oppose standing, and we were able to put in place any structural adaptations to carry the weight of more fans, we still need to deal with safe access / egress and space in the concourses.

As far as construction projects go, extending out under the already overhanging Kop seems pretty low complexity compared to what we've already done, which you think would be an obvious solution to concourse/egress.

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #1876 on: January 25, 2023, 09:49:30 pm »
Go in the concourses on The Kop at half time and they are rammed as are the toilets.  It also takes ages to get out at the end of the match from the back of The Kop.  And it takes at least 10 minutes to get in now in the 20 minutes before kick off.

So assuming we overcame the objections of those who oppose standing, and we were able to put in place any structural adaptations to carry the weight of more fans, we still need to deal with safe access / egress and space in the concourses.

Was going to say something similar myself. Its always takes a good 10 minutes to get out of 306 at Full Time, I'd hate to have to evacuate the current Kop as it is.
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'LFC completes successful rail seating trial and will apply for Safe Standing Licence':-

Liverpool FC has completed its rail seating trial for some sections of Anfield and will expand the phased installation programme on a permanent basis moving forward.

www.liverpoolfc.com/news/lfc-completes-successful-rail-seating-trial-and-will-apply-safe-standing-licence


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Some 'Useful Info' for following the football + TV, Streams, Highlights & Replays etc - www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=345769

A mini-index of RAWK's 'Liverpool Audio / Video Thread' content over the years; & more - www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=345769.msg17787576#msg17787576

Offline DangerScouse

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Great news.

Offline redgriffin73

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Good stuff. :thumbup
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