Author Topic: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)  (Read 488998 times)

Offline Scouser-Tommy

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Re: Re: New Annie road, small to medium expansion plans shelved.
« Reply #1720 on: August 23, 2019, 10:43:43 am »
any idea what could our capacity be if safe standing comes in and the Kop can be converted to safe standing?
Personally, I would like to see safe standing considered but I can't see Anfield ever having safe standing as it is a sensitive topic with our fan base.

Offline dudleyred

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Wasn’t really sure where to post this but with the Annie road back up for discussion thought I’d mention about the Beşiktaş ground

Was my first experience of rail seating and thought it was great

Having a bar in front of the seats was fine and felt very safe. Most stood anyway but even something as stupid as squeezing past people in the aisle felt easier with a rail there

Would like to see the anfield road end be considered with a steep stand so not too far back from the pitch but put the rails in for future proofing if standing becomes an option

Offline Indomitable_Carp

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Re: Re: New Annie road, small to medium expansion plans shelved.
« Reply #1722 on: August 23, 2019, 12:09:26 pm »
any idea what could our capacity be if safe standing comes in and the Kop can be converted to safe standing?

I was under the impression the Kop would be too steep to convert to safe-standing under current regulations anyway? Likewise with any Anny Road development that is not designed with this possibility in mind (which at this juncture I don't think it will be)

Offline CraigDS

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Re: Re: New Annie road, small to medium expansion plans shelved.
« Reply #1723 on: August 23, 2019, 12:12:24 pm »
I was under the impression the Kop would be too steep to convert to safe-standing under current regulations anyway? Likewise with any Anny Road development that is not designed with this possibility in mind (which at this juncture I don't think it will be)

I think the Kop is just about OK, but it would likely need reprofiling anyway for the extra tread space required.

Offline classycarra

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Re: Re: New Annie road, small to medium expansion plans shelved.
« Reply #1724 on: August 23, 2019, 12:13:43 pm »
I was under the impression the Kop would be too steep to convert to safe-standing under current regulations anyway? Likewise with any Anny Road development that is not designed with this possibility in mind (which at this juncture I don't think it will be)

I would be surprised if the new Annie Road designs, in meeting current requirements, don't naturally converge a lot with safe standing norms anyway

Offline FlashingBlade

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Re: Re: New Annie road, small to medium expansion plans shelved.
« Reply #1725 on: August 23, 2019, 12:18:01 pm »
I'm not clear on why people think safe are standing would increase capacity on the Kop...safe standing does not mean we would be packed in like sardines like the old terracing...in fact everyone is packed in pretty tight now when sitting..if you had a bench like seat .maybe a few extra per row but nothing I think some here hope for....

Offline CraigDS

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Re: Re: New Annie road, small to medium expansion plans shelved.
« Reply #1726 on: August 23, 2019, 12:19:06 pm »
I'm not clear on why people think safe are standing would increase capacity on the Kop...safe standing does not mean we would be packed in like sardines like the old terracing...in fact everyone is packed in pretty tight now when sitting..if you had a bench like seat .maybe a few extra per row but nothing I think some here hope for....

Safe standing can add between 1.5 to 2 people per current seat.

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Re: Re: New Annie road, small to medium expansion plans shelved.
« Reply #1727 on: August 23, 2019, 01:16:38 pm »
Personally, I would like to see safe standing considered but I can't see Anfield ever having safe standing as it is a sensitive topic with our fan base.
I'd like to see it too. I know fans are divided on it, but I feel we should actually be the first to do it, not the last. We all know what happened to put an end to standing at football, but it wasn't the standing itself that was at fault. This is known and understood. As a Red I have faith in standing if it is done correctly and safely. Anyway, just personal opinion, please don't shoot...
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Offline ChrisLFCKOP

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Re: Re: New Annie road, small to medium expansion plans shelved.
« Reply #1728 on: August 23, 2019, 04:20:35 pm »
Safe standing can add between 1.5 to 2 people per current seat.

Yes is building a new stand but retro fitting an existing stand without sorting out exits, you will probably wont be allowed to increase the capacity.

Norwich home we all stood and it felt cramped...

Offline CraigDS

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Re: Re: New Annie road, small to medium expansion plans shelved.
« Reply #1729 on: August 23, 2019, 04:23:01 pm »
Yes is building a new stand but retro fitting an existing stand without sorting out exits, you will probably wont be allowed to increase the capacity.

Norwich home we all stood and it felt cramped...

No matter how its done it will need to comply with whatever the regs end up being if they decide to allow it in PL stadiums.

It will no doubt mean some reduction for the seated capacity to make the current stands meet those regs, but I doubt it will mean 1 standing per 1 current seat. If so then doubt the club will do it.

Offline Original

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Re: Re: New Annie road, small to medium expansion plans shelved.
« Reply #1730 on: August 23, 2019, 06:03:18 pm »
Yes is building a new stand but retro fitting an existing stand without sorting out exits, you will probably wont be allowed to increase the capacity.

Norwich home we all stood and it felt cramped...

We stand every week mate, have done for years and will continue too.

The reason it's so cramped is because of the seat and associated fittings and the envelope they take up. If you hypothetically removed them you'd have loads of room for standing, just not safely obviously

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Re: Re: New Annie road, small to medium expansion plans shelved.
« Reply #1731 on: August 24, 2019, 07:24:22 am »
We stand every week mate, have done for years and will continue too.

The reason it's so cramped is because of the seat and associated fittings and the envelope they take up. If you hypothetically removed them you'd have loads of room for standing, just not safely obviously

It feels more cramped on the Kop sat down than stood if you're over 4 foot 5, especially having to be up and down every 2 minutes with attacks.
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Offline John C

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Safe standing can add between 1.5 to 2 people per current seat.
I don't see how based on the Kop and CS space, you can hardly stand comfortably before the game or at half time with having extra people squeezed in.

Offline FlashingBlade

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Safe standing can add between 1.5 to 2 people per current seat.

Where you get that from?..current seat space on Kop is 600mm per person...and I think its bit less at wings...unless you planning on a fan base of Peter Crouches you show me where you get 2 people per 600mm...and option to sit ( it will be like German model)

Offline CraigDS

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Where you get that from?..current seat space on Kop is 600mm per person...and I think its bit less at wings...unless you planning on a fan base of Peter Crouches you show me where you get 2 people per 600mm...and option to sit ( it will be like German model)

Can’t remember where now, standing has been discussed on here for a long time so read a fair amount over the years.

If you look on the FSF site though they show plenty of pics which is around 1.5-2 per seat (I think closer to 2).

Offline FlashingBlade

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Can’t remember where now, standing has been discussed on here for a long time so read a fair amount over the years.

If you look on the FSF site though they show plenty of pics which is around 1.5-2 per seat (I think closer to 2).

Nah don't see it..when we stand for games it shoulder to shoulder...

Offline CraigDS

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Nah don't see it..when we stand for games it shoulder to shoulder...

Width isn’t the issue, it’s front to back.

There would be another step in place per each current step, with one stranding game in front and one behind, staggered so you look over the shoulders of the two in front.

There is no difference in your shoulder width if you’re standing or sitting.

Offline Fromola

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Width isn’t the issue, it’s front to back.

There would be another step in place per each current step, with one stranding game in front and one behind, staggered so you look over the shoulders of the two in front.

There is no difference in your shoulder width if you’re standing or sitting.

It's more uncomfortable sitting down at Anfield than stood in the Kop.
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

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We've had 7 people to 3 seats before on the Kop, 1.5 to one seat is more than doable.

Offline FlashingBlade

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Width isn’t the issue, it’s front to back.

There would be another step in place per each current step, with one stranding game in front and one behind, staggered so you look over the shoulders of the two in front.

There is no difference in your shoulder width if you’re standing or sitting.


The steps now the same with as would required in 'safe' standing...( key word is safe)...which means wide enough for people to stand freely,  a barrier and for people to pass reasonably.

Notwithstanding anything said above..the Kop as a whole is designed on 16k ( ?) Capacity...exit capacity ( esp in emergency) gangway capacity.. facilities..turnstile capscity....etc etc..any increase in considering impact would go way beyond just taking seats out and squeezing in several more thousand.
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Offline FlashingBlade

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Think some above need to consider what safe standing means , if you think its packing people into a tight fit like old style terracing your simply deluding yourselves.

Offline CraigDS

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Think some above need to consider what safe standing means , if you think its packing people into a tight fit like old style terracing your simply deluding yourselves.

Nothing like old terracing. However safe standing allows for between 1.5 and 2 people per seated space - I.e. two rows of standing between each rail, each on a different ‘step’ on that row.

Obviously how that specifically works with regards to the Kop and the exits, etc, as well as concourse area, remains to be seen.

Offline FlashingBlade

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There is a fundamental misunderstanding here...´safe standing´is not ´lets increase capacity´ and more importantly retro fitting safe standing does no deliver oppurtunistic increase capacity.

The desire for safe standing arose when fans felt (rightly) that seating affected atmosphere/enjoyment...and seeing Germany ahead of the game building super large stadiums with safe standing inspired the momentum here...but clearly a hugely sensitive issue...but safe standing concept is now progressing well with Celtic achieving it...but its about safe standing. not increasing capacity.Celtic retro fitted part of the ground but to the German model. Their aim to create a better experiance for fans who wanted to watch the game standing. Not to increase the capacity of Celtic Park.

The engineering complexity of retro fitting the Kop ( based on current German/Celtic Model) may make it economically non viable especially as all the other enabaling works that would required...a new build Kop is a different concept but not one that is likely to happen.

The idea of 1.5/2 people per current seat/layout is a none starter simply becouse we go back to inital concept 'Safe Standing'  squeezing everyone in 'cos we dont mind'' generally doesnt appear in legislation or building codes and if anyone think's Liverpool will build something that doesnt meet every single code to the max , well....

Plus do you really see the Kop increase capacity by 50%..a 100%..just think about it a bit.

Safe standing will deliver the ideal football experiance to many on the Kop ...but not all...and there in lies another issue...the Kop was and always has been an enviroment where old and young mixed ( some hog wash talked on RAWK about the past ...old guys went into the main stand, thats bollocks...they stood in the wings and at the back..with youngsters too)..safe standing may not be ideal for all....so what do you do then....have different sections on the Kop?


anyhoo I think its all moot...cant see any developments on this is forseable ...the desire for safe standing came about for a better atmosphere ..and we have achieved it...based on the German model...however they went for thousands standing...out atmosphere improved to the best in 30 years by just one German standing .....on the sidelines.






Offline CraigDS

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Actually the number of fans standing in an area is covered in the Green Guide, so there is legislation for it.

Also, whilst I agree a massive part of why fans want standing is atmosphere, it’s also because of pricing, and that’s because you CAN (legally) fit more per seated space and therefore could bring the price down accordingly.

Again, I’m not saying the Kop would double in size, I’m saying the type of safe standing which FSF is pushing for allows for 1.5-2 per seated spot. It’s nothing like old terracing as it limits the amount in one area, where as terracing was pack as many into an area and no one knew the number.

Offline gorgepir

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Surely this discussion belongs on the safe standing thread?

Offline CraigDS

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Surely this discussion belongs on the safe standing thread?

It does, and to be honest has been discussed many many times over the last 5 or more years.

Offline Richie69

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #1746 on: February 2, 2020, 11:08:17 am »
Rumour of a government update in the next week or so.   Looking positive...

Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #1747 on: February 2, 2020, 07:44:10 pm »
There is a fundamental misunderstanding here...´safe standing´is not ´lets increase capacity´ and more importantly retro fitting safe standing does no deliver oppurtunistic increase capacity.

The desire for safe standing arose when fans felt (rightly) that seating affected atmosphere/enjoyment...and seeing Germany ahead of the game building super large stadiums with safe standing inspired the momentum here...but clearly a hugely sensitive issue...but safe standing concept is now progressing well with Celtic achieving it...but its about safe standing. not increasing capacity.Celtic retro fitted part of the ground but to the German model. Their aim to create a better experiance for fans who wanted to watch the game standing. Not to increase the capacity of Celtic Park.

The engineering complexity of retro fitting the Kop ( based on current German/Celtic Model) may make it economically non viable especially as all the other enabaling works that would required...a new build Kop is a different concept but not one that is likely to happen.

The idea of 1.5/2 people per current seat/layout is a none starter simply becouse we go back to inital concept 'Safe Standing'  squeezing everyone in 'cos we dont mind'' generally doesnt appear in legislation or building codes and if anyone think's Liverpool will build something that doesnt meet every single code to the max , well....

Plus do you really see the Kop increase capacity by 50%..a 100%..just think about it a bit.

Safe standing will deliver the ideal football experiance to many on the Kop ...but not all...and there in lies another issue...the Kop was and always has been an enviroment where old and young mixed ( some hog wash talked on RAWK about the past ...old guys went into the main stand, thats bollocks...they stood in the wings and at the back..with youngsters too)..safe standing may not be ideal for all....so what do you do then....have different sections on the Kop?


anyhoo I think its all moot...cant see any developments on this is forseable ...the desire for safe standing came about for a better atmosphere ..and we have achieved it...based on the German model...however they went for thousands standing...out atmosphere improved to the best in 30 years by just one German standing .....on the sidelines.



A clearer misconception is that old terracing was an uncontrolled situation. There were limits on numbers, size of step, angle of step, number and spacing of barriers etc. And all these limits are still in place for any stadium outside the top two divisions of football. There hasn’t been a time in recent times when it was ok to squeeze in as many as you could.

Oddly, the current configuration of the Kop could be made to comply with current regulation/guidance for standing - with or without ‘safe standing’ seats. Compared to others, it is at the very shallow angle suggested for standing by the Green Guide. The step size is 560-600mm, which can accommodate two steps of the minimum size of 280mm.

So any standing including safe standing could work in the current Kop’s basic configuration but there would be at least two limitations on capacity - the increased weight of more numbers on the structure and the increased number of exits required to meet updated regulations for escape times. Strengthening the structure would be possible, as would adding exits but together both would limit the opportunity to increase capacity and reduce prices/increase availability. That’s why you can’t get double the capacity and 1.8:1 is the accepted approximate number.

The Taylor Report recommended that the greater control offered by seating was safer and a more desirable experience for everyone. While the second part is debatable, it got it badly wrong by suggesting that only modest price increases would be needed and it didn’t really think about the effect on availability.

Also, the benefits have always been two-fold - not just better atmosphere but also potentially lower price/ greater availability and the two are closely related via capacity. You could write a book about changes in atmosphere but the atmosphere, spontaneity and camaraderie generated within a kop half the capacity of the old is at least... different. Certainly you’d have to say that a cheaper kop with greater numbers and hence availability tends to a stronger atmosphere. Double the numbers, double the noise.

It does indeed work in Germany and stands are more impressive. They are steeper and more intimidating and the numbers are huge. Dortmund’s stadium holds 80,000 on probably a footprint smaller than Old Trafford and the atmosphere generated by the Yellow Wall is pretty impressive.

Not only that but as a whole the club has moved from a time of near-extinction and living within its means into a period of sensible but ambitious expansion. From a period of spending next to nothing to a period of sensible but bold acquisition of young and talented players.

All told I believe the club is moving into a similar position on the stadium, where other things such as critical mass, greater availability and chutzpah are as important as strict financial return on every penny spent. Nothing outrageous. Just sensible incremental development.

The main stand has been approached with a good eye on improving corporate sales and the optimum financial return ie., the most financial bang per buck. While it has been more of a success than anyone expected, it has allowed the ARE to go ahead on more relaxed financial terms and a stronger eye on availability.

Extending the Kop for a few 100 or a 1,000 seats is probably not worth the return or marginal benefit in atmosphere, as discussed here many times. Making it standing does more but as said, we already have a standing Kop. Whether it is safe or not is another matter. It certainly wasn’t designed to be standing.

Redeveloping the centenary stand might come before a better Kop and safe standing can already be integrated in the Kop as is but if you want a properly safe, safe standing Kop with better, steeper views, better atmosphere, potentially lower prices and bigger ‘presence’, it may be just as well to consider re-building it - especially at a time when the club can afford a relatively modest investment in the longevity of its own success and give the fans what is clearly wanted.





« Last Edit: February 2, 2020, 08:03:47 pm by Peter McGurk »

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #1748 on: February 2, 2020, 07:57:55 pm »
Peter!  You’re still here!

Welcome back.
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Offline andy07

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #1749 on: February 2, 2020, 09:50:30 pm »
Not the same threads without Peter.   Plenty more informative comment please.
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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #1750 on: February 3, 2020, 06:47:51 pm »
Actually the number of fans standing in an area is covered in the Green Guide, so there is legislation for it.

Also, whilst I agree a massive part of why fans want standing is atmosphere, it’s also because of pricing, and that’s because you CAN (legally) fit more per seated space and therefore could bring the price down accordingly.

Again, I’m not saying the Kop would double in size, I’m saying the type of safe standing which FSF is pushing for allows for 1.5-2 per seated spot. It’s nothing like old terracing as it limits the amount in one area, where as terracing was pack as many into an area and no one knew the number.

Increases in TV revenue, increases in sponsorship deals, the corporate financial uplift could all be used to reduce prices and make ticket prices more affordable. What is needed is an appetite to reduce prices.

Given that teams are competing with each other to gain a commercial advantage I think there is a very limited desire to reduce ticket prices. Add in things like the cost of restructuring the Kop, significant increases in stewarding costs plus the biggy the fact that you would actually reduce the capacity of the ground for European games.
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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #1751 on: February 3, 2020, 07:32:56 pm »
Increases in TV revenue, increases in sponsorship deals, the corporate financial uplift could all be used to reduce prices and make ticket prices more affordable. What is needed is an appetite to reduce prices.

Given that teams are competing with each other to gain a commercial advantage I think there is a very limited desire to reduce ticket prices. Add in things like the cost of restructuring the Kop, significant increases in stewarding costs plus the biggy the fact that you would actually reduce the capacity of the ground for European games.

Blimey Al I first went on the Kop as a skinny 13 year old in the 1960s and I've just realised there wasn't a single steward on duty.

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #1753 on: February 11, 2020, 10:34:57 am »
Manchester United apply to install rail seating at Old Trafford

  • Trial area proposed, with club saying it would enhance safety

Quote
Manchester United have made a proposal to install rail seating for up to 1,500 supporters at Old Trafford. They argue it would enhance fan safety in a part of the stadium where supporters persistently stand.
The club conducted a feasibility study following changes to the Sports Ground Stadium Authority Green Guide.

Minutes from the United fans’ forum on 31 January read: “A formal proposal was made to the local Safety Advisory Group in December 2019 to request a trial in a small section of the stadium (up to 1,500 seats in the north-east quadrant).

“Our belief is that the introduction of rail seating will enhance spectator safety in areas of the stadium where – as with other clubs – we have seen examples of persistent standing.

“The SAG committee is reviewing the request. This is not an automatic approval process. We will discuss the proposal in detail with the relevant authorities and will work through their compliance and review processes.”

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/feb/11/manchester-united-apply-to-install-rail-seating-at-old-trafford

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #1754 on: February 11, 2020, 11:46:35 am »
It's interesting that United are doing this at a time when, I don't believe, they need to think about increasing their capacity. I don't think they have been selling out recently due to their crap form.

Offline CraigDS

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #1755 on: February 11, 2020, 12:03:56 pm »
It's interesting that United are doing this at a time when, I don't believe, they need to think about increasing their capacity. I don't think they have been selling out recently due to their crap form.

Don't think it increases capacity under current guidelines.

However, buying good will from their fans they do need...!

Offline Richie69

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #1756 on: February 11, 2020, 08:21:09 pm »
It's interesting that United are doing this at a time when, I don't believe, they need to think about increasing their capacity. I don't think they have been selling out recently due to their crap form.
Will depend on what the end guidelines are.   Usually its about 1.5-1 standing to seats but they may err on the side of caution for starters.

An all standing Kop once more would be an amazing site.

Offline Always_A_Red

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #1757 on: February 11, 2020, 08:32:40 pm »
Will depend on what the end guidelines are.   Usually its about 1.5-1 standing to seats but they may err on the side of caution for starters.

An all standing Kop once more would be an amazing site.

We have stood up every game this season in all competitions on the KOP - Even the Shrewsbury game everyone was stood up. There's 2 announcements over the tannoy - a half hearted 'please be aware that we don't condone persistent standing' but unlike a few years back when you had stewards marching up and down the steps demanding that people sit down, I think the club recognise that a standing KOP generates more atmosphere and helps the team and promotes a great brand and are turning a blind eye.

Having said that, unless it increases capacity dramatically (ie 1.5/1) then I don't think the club will see the benefit and just let us carry on doing what we're doing.

If we do implement it, I imagine we'll be the very last team to implement it for obvious reasons.
We’ll still finish in top four - and they won’t. You can quote me on this in May.

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #1758 on: February 11, 2020, 09:00:09 pm »
I don’t really get that argument. If the club are willing to let the Kop stand then they should be the forerunners in making sure it’s safe by introducing rail seating (which it currently isn’t).

Offline Fromola

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #1759 on: February 11, 2020, 09:18:19 pm »
We have stood up every game this season in all competitions on the KOP - Even the Shrewsbury game everyone was stood up. There's 2 announcements over the tannoy - a half hearted 'please be aware that we don't condone persistent standing' but unlike a few years back when you had stewards marching up and down the steps demanding that people sit down, I think the club recognise that a standing KOP generates more atmosphere and helps the team and promotes a great brand and are turning a blind eye.

Having said that, unless it increases capacity dramatically (ie 1.5/1) then I don't think the club will see the benefit and just let us carry on doing what we're doing.

If we do implement it, I imagine we'll be the very last team to implement it for obvious reasons.

At the moment the Kop are all stood. If we put rail seats in for 1500 (like the Mancs) then everyone else would then be forced to sit.

Be careful what we wish for.
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season